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Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement debate -
Thursday, 8 Dec 2022

Architects of the Good Friday Agreement (Resumed): Mr. John Bruton

Apologies have been received from Senator Black. As usual, I will go through the rota for people here. Fianna Fáil will be first - Senator Blaney is in a vote at present - followed by Fine Gael, Sinn Féin, SDLP, Alliance, Green Party, Sinn Féin, Labour Party, Independents, Aontú, etc. If it is agreed, we will allocate 15 minutes for each party or group, which may be adjusted depending on the time. Is that rota agreed? Agreed.

Today, we continue our meeting on the architects of the Good Friday Agreement. We have met already with a range of people and we will continue to meet others going forward.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome former Taoiseach, Mr. John Bruton; John was deeply involved in the Northern Ireland peace process in the years leading to the 1998 Good Friday Agreement. John's participation today provides an important opportunity for the committee to hear his perspective on what happened and what, maybe, should happen and to capture the lessons that we need to learn from the peace process.

On a personal level, it was a privilege to be a member of Fine Gael when John was our leader. It was an exciting time for our country all those years.

On parliamentary privilege, there is a standard commentary every Chairman has to make. Before we begin, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. However, witnesses and participants who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts does, and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Witnesses are also asked to note that only evidence connected with the subject matter of the proceedings should be given. They should respect directions given by the Chair and the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should neither criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to that person or entity's good name.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Before I call on John to make his opening statement, I want to explain to him that our committee involves participation voluntarily by members who are elected in Northern Ireland.

A number of them are online, including Mr. Paul Maskey and Mr. Mickey Brady. I think Dr. Stephen Farry from the Alliance Party is there. As they get involved in the debate, if John cannot see them on the announcement, he will see them on the screen.

I invite him to make his opening statement.

Mr. John Bruton

It is an honour to speak here. While there will be much detail in what I have to say, four points stand out. The constant focus on a Border poll is destabilising and its impact on sentiment around the Northern Ireland protocol is damaging the chances of progress. Second, reconciliation within Northern Ireland, rather than constitutional change, should be the big priority now for the people of Northern Ireland and should be supported by the two Governments. Third, the failure to abide by the duty of impartiality as between the parties regarding the protocol by the British Government is in clear breach of the Good Friday Agreement, which I will elaborate on. Finally, the UK Government’s Bill to disapply the protocol also breaches the Good Friday Agreement, which requires the consent of Northern Ireland for major changes. This legislation also breaches international law, given it breaches an international treaty.

Turning to the historical and philosophical origins of partition, as I see it, both nationalism and unionism need to re-examine their underlying assumptions. I might first say a word about the assumptions underlying Irish nationalism. The failure of the Act of Union to integrate Ireland into a genuine union with England, Scotland and Wales after 1800 was partly due to the fact those nations were Protestant in religion, whereas Ireland, outside north-east Ulster, was predominantly Catholic. The disastrous potato Famine of 1845 to 1850, which cost millions of lives in Ireland and to which the laissez-faire economic policies of the Liberal Government in London were a totally inadequate response, added to the sense of alienation. From 1840, there was agitation in Ireland, either to repeal the union and restore the Irish Parliament or, at least, to grant Ireland home rule through a home rule parliament in Dublin with limited powers, excluding foreign affairs, defence and customs. Both these proposals envisaged Ireland having a single parliament for the entire island, without any exclusion of north-east Ulster. From early on, however, opponents of home rule argued that allowing a Dublin parliament to govern the four or six counties in north-east Ulster, where a majority Protestant population did not want to be ruled by a Dublin parliament, would be unfair or unworkable. Unionists in north-east Ulster did not at that time want to find themselves being continually outvoted in a Dublin parliament, in the same way that Irish Catholic MPs had become used to being continually outvoted in the union Parliament in London.

The first attempt to grant home rule to Ireland was put forward by William Gladstone in 1886. Nationalism, while not so popular in the 18th century, became a popular doctrine in the 19th and 20th centuries. John Bright, the leading British Radical and Liberal statesman, opposed Gladstone's home rule Bill for all Ireland on the ground that there were two nationalities, not one, on the island of Ireland. He stated, “Ulster may be deemed a nationality differing from the rest of Ireland at least as much as Wales differs from England”.

Charles Stewart Parnell also recognised there was a problem here. He stated, "It is undoubtedly true that until the prejudices of the [Protestant and unionist] majority are conciliated... [Otherwise] Ireland can never enjoy full freedom … can never be united”. He was not, however, in a position to put forward a solution to the dilemma he acknowledged existed. In a sense, that dilemma remains unaddressed to this day.

A third attempt to introduce home rule was made in 1912 by a Liberal Government led by Herbert Asquith. Responding to Asquith’s Bill, one of his Liberal backbencher MPs, Thomas Agar-Robartes, stated that Ulster unionists and Irish nationalists were two different nations with “different sentiments, character, history and religion” and that it would be impossible to fuse these two “incongruous elements” together. These differences of sentiment, character, history and religion are as relevant today as they were in 1911 or 1912, although the relative weight to be given to each of them has varied. They are nonetheless important constituents of a nationality. Agar-Robartes proposed an amendment to the home rule Bill that would have allowed certain Ulster counties to opt out of home rule and continue to be ruled directly from London.

A similar argument was made by the Conservative leader Arthur Balfour, who also opposed home rule for the whole of Ireland and said the unionists of north-east Ulster and the population of the rest of Ireland had “two [different] sets of aspirations, two sets of ideals, two sets of historic memories”. It is difficult to say Balfour was wrong. Shared aspirations and ideals, and shared historic memories, are what shape and sustain nations in difficult times.

Irish nationalists supporting home rule rejected these arguments. John Redmond described the notion that there were two nations on the island of Ireland as “revolting” and “hateful”. Neither he nor most Irish nationalists, however, devoted enough thought or imagination to devising ways in which the incongruous elements of Ulster unionists, and Irish nationalists might be fused into a single nation. In fairness to Redmond, it must be said, his support for recruitment to the British Army in 1914 and 1915 was a form of indirect response to unionist sensibilities. He wanted to show that nationalists and unionists had some aspirations and allegiances in common, for which they were willing to make the supreme sacrifice, as many did.

That said, the overwhelming majority of nationalists believed no part of Ireland had a right to opt out. The argument was the following, for which they were prepared to make great sacrifices. Ireland was a geographic unit, an island, and ipso facto it should be one nation. This put physical geography ahead of human geography, territory ahead of people. The only Irish nationalist who took Ulster unionist concerns seriously was the vice president of Sinn Féin, Fr. Michael O'Flanagan, who admitted that “in the last analysis the test of nationality is the wish of the people" and that Ulster unionists “had never transferred their love and allegiance to Ireland.” He stated that Irish nationalists “claim the right to decide what is to be our nation” but then refuse Ulster unionists the same right. I am not sure how much influence Fr. O'Flanagan had on subsequent Sinn Féin policy, although he continued to be active in the party into the 1930s. He seems to have been a somewhat eccentric individualist but some of the statements he made bear thinking about.

Going back in time, many nationalists did not take Ulster unionist objections to home rule seriously at all.

They thought it was bluff, even when Ulster unionists, opposed to home rule, armed themselves and set up a provisional government to resist Dublin rule. They still consider that to be bluff. The working assumption of Irish nationalists seems to have been that the liberal government in London would coerce all of Ulster into accepting home rule. With hindsight, this seems somewhat unrealistic. The morality, practicality and wisdom of such a course does not seem to have been explored by nationalist thinkers. It was simply too difficult. Indeed, there are suggestions by some historians that liberals decided that they would not coerce Ulster, but they were trying to get as far as they could without doing so.

Nationalists argued that resistance to home rule was being fanned by elements of the British Conservative Party for domestic purposes. There was truth in this, but it was not determinative, in my opinion. Nationalists argued that partition was imposed by the 1920 Government of Ireland Act, passed at Westminster - not by anybody meeting here. This is true. If partition had been made the subject of consent on a county-by-county vote in 1920, Fermanagh and Tyrone might have voted for rule from Dublin, but there still would have been partition on a different line.

Irish nationalism also adopted a rhetoric that did not include Ulster unionist aspirations. For example, the language of the Irish, Gaelic, was to be the language of Ireland. While some Ulster unionists would have been able to speak Irish, they would not have seen this decision to make Gaelic the national language as part of a nation-building project that belonged to them. One nationalist writer, D.P. Moran, said the foundation of the Irish is the Gael, which excludes Ulster unionists, who are not of Gaelic stock, explicitly. Symbols like the monarchy, which meant and mean a lot to unionists, were explicitly rejected by republicans. Indeed, establishing an Irish Republic, and thus getting rid of the monarchy, seemed to be more important than avoiding partition. For example, Eamon de Valera, speaking in the Dáil in 1921 during the truce and before the treaty negotiations commenced, said that if the Irish Republic was recognised, he would be in favour of giving each county the power to vote itself out of the Republic. In such a scenario, it is probable, as I said earlier, that Antrim, Down, Armagh and Derry would have voted to exclude themselves, but Fermanagh and Tyrone would not.

In more recent times, insistence by some nationalists on commemorating acts that unionists regard as terrorism is counterproductive. Softness of tone does little to undo the underlying harm that such commemorations and rituals do.

Having spoken much about nationalist assumptions, I would like to say a word about unionist assumptions, which also need to be re-examined by them. It is probably not for you or me to suggest how Ulster unionism might rethink its assumptions; it is for them to do that. However, we could perhaps suggest themes for reflection. Unionism might develop a more comprehensive and inclusive definition of “Ulster” that recognises the contribution of people not of the so-called majority tradition to creating what is good about Northern Ireland today. Sometimes gestures can make as big a difference as concrete actions. Arlene Foster’s attendance at the Ulster Final in Clones was important. Commemorations can play a role. As well as remembering the losses of the Ulster Division at the Somme, unionists might also remember the sacrifices of the 16th Irish Division and notable Irish nationalist casualties, such as Tom Kettle and Willie Redmond.

Unionism might also try to lead the debate, rather than follow, that is starting in the UK about the nature of the union between Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The legacy of empire is not enough to keep the union together indefinitely. As the only part of the UK that has a land boundary with a non-UK entity, Northern Ireland surely has a special right to an input to UK foreign and border policy. Edwin Poots's recent intervention illustrates this. Unionists might ask whether the UK needs a written constitution to protect the smaller nations when big decisions, such as Brexit or attempting to disapply endorsed international treaties, are being considered?

Of course, reciprocity will be important to encourage any such rethinking. Unionists need to convince the increasing middle ground that the union is good for them. Harsh confrontations over the protocol do not help, especially when there will be a vote on the continuance of the protocol in the Northern Ireland Assembly on a regular basis anyway. There is no need to agitate about it now and cause further division.

I would now like to say a word about the background to the Good Friday Agreement, which is the principal focus of the committee. The Agreement was a culmination of many efforts by successive Irish and British Governments to devise a basis for the governance of Northern Ireland that would be seen as fair to both traditional communities in Northern Ireland.

The Stormont Parliament that provided internal governance for Northern Ireland from 1920 to 1972 operated on a basis of simple majority rule. Given that self-declared unionists were a majority of the electorate for that entire period, non-unionists were effectively excluded from government offices in Stormont. This meant that the Stormont Parliament was considered neither legitimate nor fair by a substantial section of the population.

The Sunningdale Agreement of 1974 was designed by the Irish and UK Governments and by a majority of the parties in Northern Ireland with the objective of fairness and inclusivity in mind. Unfortunately, it was undermined by the so-called Ulster Workers' Council strike and it was also vigorously opposed at the time by major elements within unionism, by Sinn Féin and violently by the IRA.

The Anglo-Irish Agreement of 1985 was another attempt to address the sense of exclusion of the nationalist minority by providing that the UK government would afford the Irish Government a formal policy input role in Northern Ireland with a right to receive answers to questions that it might raise. The agreement was used productively by the Irish Government to press for an even-handed and impartial administration in Northern Ireland. It much reduced the incidence of megaphone diplomacy by providing a mechanism for private diplomacy. The unionist parties were not included by the UK side in the preparation of the 1985 agreement, which is unfortunate, whereas the Irish Government had consulted the main nationalist party, namely, the Social Democratic and Labour Party, SDLP. This led to a great deal of unionist resentment. It also led to unionists refusing to have contacts with the Irish Government for a lengthy period, up until almost 1990.

Both the Sunningdale and Anglo-Irish Agreements included assurances that the status of Northern Ireland as part of the UK would not be changed without the consent of a majority there. There was some tension between these assurances and the hard legal words of Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution, which appeared to make a claim, as of right, to the territory of Northern Ireland, without the wishes of the people living there being paramount.

I now turn to the origins of the peace process, which is a parallel but related development. John Hume of the SDLP, in talks with Sinn Féin, sought a way to remove the theoretical justification for the IRA campaign of violence by seeking a redefinition of the concept of Irish national self-determination. This was an act of genius on his part. Rather than self-determination being expressed by means of a single decision by a simple majority of the people of the 32 counties of Ireland, John Hume sought to frame a proposition that could be agreed in identical terms in simultaneous referenda in both jurisdictions. As long as the proposition put in both jurisdictions was the same and majorities were achieved in both, this would constitute an act of national self-determination by the Irish people as a whole. It would ostensibly satisfy the demands of the republican movement for national self-determination while simultaneously respecting the principle of consent.

This was the core concept underlying the Good Friday Agreement and the referenda approving it on both sides of the Border. However, the founding document of the present peace process was the Downing Street Declaration of December 1993. It was negotiated between the governments of Albert Reynolds and John Major with active involvement of both the Ulster Unionist Party and the SDLP. It acknowledged the legitimacy of both unionist and nationalist points of view. It contains some very important principles and, in a sense, the outworking of the Good Friday Agreement should be judged by reference to those principles.

One important part of the Downing Street Declaration was the following text:

The British and Irish Governments reiterate that the achievement of peace must involve a permanent end to the use of, or support for, paramilitary violence. They confirm that, in these circumstances, democratically mandated parties which establish a commitment to exclusively peaceful methods and which have shown that they abide by the democratic process, are free to participate fully in democratic politics and to join in dialogue in due course between the Governments and the political parties on the way ahead.

Access to the democratic process was conditioned on "a permanent end to the use of or support for paramilitary violence". The IRA was unwilling to say that their cessation violence was permanent; indeed, it was to prove not to be. Despite this, Sinn Féin wanted to participate in democratic politics on the same basis as parties that relied solely on persuasion and that were not supported by a private army. The idea of a gesture of weapons decommissioning - the famous "Washington 3" - was put forward as a symbolic and second best alternative to the IRA complying with the Downing Street Declaration and saying the end to its military operations was permanent.

In this context, when I became Taoiseach in December 1994, I was conscious of my obligations under the Constitution to the Houses of the Oireachtas. Article 15.6 of the Constitution states “The right to raise and maintains military or armed forces is vested exclusively in the Oireachtas”, that is, in these Houses, and adds that “no military or armed force”, other than one raised and maintained by the Oireachtas, “shall be raised and maintained for any purpose whatsoever”. Clearly the holding of arms by the IRA on the territory of this State was and would be a straightforward breach of Article 15.6. This was and remains fundamental to the democratic character of this State. As Taoiseach, an officeholder responsible to the Oireachtas, I was obliged, when asked by journalists, to say that I would welcome the decommissioning of such weapons, even as a symbolic gesture. To have given any other answer than that I would welcome it would have been to collude in a breach of Article 15 of the Constitution and to accept the legitimacy of a private army. I was not willing to do that and no Taoiseach should be.

I will now turn to the end of what proved to be a temporary cessation of violence by the IRA. On 31 August 1994, the IRA had announced “a complete cessation of military activities”. A loyalist ceasefire had followed on 13 October. As well as not being permanent, the IRA cessation of military activities was not complete either. I remember the following names because I was in office at the time: Frank Kerr, a post office worker, was shot by the IRA during a robbery on 10 November 1994; on 8 December 1994, 28 years ago today, Paul Dunne was shot by the IRA off the Lisburn Road; on 18 December, a date whose anniversary is a few days from now, Francie Collins was shot on Lepper Street and, on the following day, Chris Johnson was shot on Cooke Street; and on 1 January 1996, Ian Lyons was shot by the IRA. In the 14 months after the IRA announced its “complete” cessation of military activities on 31 August 1994, 148 punishment beatings were conducted by republicans. This was more than three times as many punishment beatings as the IRA had inflicted in the 14 months prior to its complete cessation of military activities in August 1994.

As Taoiseach, I was anxious to build on the work of my predecessor, Albert Reynolds. Notwithstanding our different party affiliations, I offered to keep Martin Mansergh, Albert Reynolds's excellent adviser, to advise me on a full-time basis on the North and on the peace process. He provided me with a very valuable initial briefing but he felt unable to accept my offer of a full-time position. I accepted and respected that decision.

Finding a way to involve Sinn Féin in political talks with other, unarmed, political parties was an inherently difficult question. The very existence of a heavily armed group associated with one of the parties carried an implicit political and military threat to the other parties in negotiations with it. The negotiating playing field would not be level, to put it mildly. However, on 28 November 1995, I persuaded John Major to agree in Downing Street to a formula to allow talks including Sinn Féin to get under way. This was known as the twin-track approach. The following is what we agreed:

1. The Prime Minister and the Taoiseach met tonight. After intensive efforts by both Governments, and with the benefit of consultations with parties in Northern Ireland, the two Governments have agreed to launch a ‘twin track’ process to make progress in parallel on the decommissioning issue and on all-party negotiations.

2. Both Governments reaffirmed their commitment to securing the early launch of all-party negotiations. By way of the twin tracks, the two Governments have the firm aim of achieving this [the opening of the talks] by the end of February 1996. It is the two Governments’ considered view that, with cooperation from all the relevant parties in both tracks, that objective should prove achievable. Both Governments commit themselves to working, with others, to achieve it.

I believe this was a major diplomatic achievement. We also agreed at that meeting to establish the International Body on Decommissioning, chaired by George Mitchell. It was not all plain sailing after that. For example, the Ulster Unionist Party refused to meet the Irish Government as part of the twin-track approach. That party was willing to negotiate with elected representatives but declined to meet Sinn Féin outside the context of an elected body.

The international commission, having met all the parties, presented its report of 28 January 1996, about a month after we had launched the twin-track approach. It recommended six principles on the basis of which the decommissioning and political talks could proceed. The text read:

Accordingly, we recommend that the parties to such negotiations affirm their total and absolute commitment:

a. To democratic and exclusively peaceful means of resolving political issues;

b. To the total disarmament of all paramilitary organisations;

c. To agree that such disarmament must be verifiable to the satisfaction of an independent commission;

d. To renounce for themselves, and to oppose any effort by others, to use force, or threaten to use force, to influence the course or the outcome of all-party negotiations;

e. To agree to abide by the terms of any agreement reached in all-party negotiations and to resort to democratic and exclusively peaceful methods in trying to alter any aspect of that outcome with which they may disagree; and [the final Mitchell principle added],

f. To urge that 'punishment' killings and beatings stop and to take effective [measures are taken to that end.]

In his response to the international body report in the House of Commons, the Prime Minister, John Major, said that there was much in the report that he could welcome and endorse. However, the practical problem of how to bring all the parties together remained.

Self-evidently, the best way to generate the necessary confidence would have been for the paramilitaries to make a start on the decommissioning process. He saw no reason they should not do so, nor could I, especially as the paramilitaries had been so slow in complying with the Mitchell principles, as I have illustrated. Mr. Major and myself were agreed that we were not prepared to accept that any one group should, through its intransigence, stand in the way of peace and a comprehensive settlement.

Mr. Major said that one of the confidence-building measures taken up by the international body was the idea of an election to peace talks. The body made it clear that a broadly acceptable elective process, with an appropriate mandate and within the three-strand structure - east-west, North-South, and internal - could contribute to the building of confidence. Mr. Major said he believed an elective process offered a viable alternative direct route to the confidence necessary to bring about all-party negotiations. In that context, he said it was possible to imagine decommissioning and political negotiations going forward in parallel. He said the election to peace talks proposal had originated in Northern Ireland and, as recent opinion polls at that time had shown, had widespread cross-community support there. A number of parties, including the UUP, the DUP and the Alliance Party, had put forward proposals for some form of election.

I believed that accepting the holding of an election as an entry method to inclusive negotiations was hardly an exorbitant price for getting the UUP to sit down and talk with Sinn Féin. Unfortunately, neither Sinn Féin nor the SDLP was supportive of an election to a negotiating body for reasons I cannot fully explain. Events were to vindicate the electoral route to talks. Elections are a healthy part of democracy anyway. The road was then open to inclusive negotiations. That was the important point. Indeed, it was through this elective body and the talks it allowed that the Good Friday Agreement was reached almost two years later.

Ten days after Mr. Major’s suggestion of an elective body to activate twin-track talks, the IRA ignited a huge bomb in Canary Wharf in London, murdering Inan Bashir and John Jeffries, civilian victims of what by any standard was a war crime. The operation was in planning for weeks during the time Sinn Féin were talking to Senator Mitchell and presumably reassuring him of their bona fides. Regardless of the incident in Canary Wharf, Mr. Major and I successfully launched the talks on 10 June 1996, which was a bit later than planned. Those were the talks that led to the Good Friday Agreement. Sinn Féin did not take part initially because their associates in the IRA had recommenced a full-scale killing campaign. However, a venue for their participation had been created and they availed of it when they realised their armed struggle was getting them nowhere.

Others will have briefed the committee on the post-1997 process that led to the Belfast Agreement of 1998. I was leader of the Opposition at the time and not directly involved and, therefore, I will focus on the reaction to it after it was announced. The agreement was debated in the Dáil on 21 April 1998. As leader of the main Opposition party, I welcomed the agreement and commended all those involved. A few things I said then - though not too many, the committee will be glad to hear - bear repetition. I said history is what we make for ourselves and that there is nothing inevitable in it, and I added that we must replace the politics of often irreconcilable aspirations with the politics of accommodation. I said that if the two communities continue to define themselves in terms of mutually irreconcilable aspirations, as they are defined in the agreement for the purposes of parallel consent, there would always be difficulties in achieving full rapprochement. I said that the very nature of unionism and nationalism would have to change if there is to be a lasting settlement. Unfortunately, that has not happened. As I said earlier, both nationalism and unionism need to re-examine their underlying assumptions. That process of re-examining assumptions could take place at this committee. In fact, there is probably nowhere more suitable for that kind of re-examination, under the chairmanship of Deputy O'Dowd.

The Belfast Agreement allows for a poll to be called on whether Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the UK and join a united Ireland. It states that if the British Secretary of State is of the opinion that a majority in Northern Ireland would support unification with the rest of Ireland, he or she shall hold a poll in Northern Ireland to allow the electorate to make that choice. Apparently, this clause in the agreement about border polls was not the subject of close scrutiny in the final days of the negotiation in 1998. The focus in that week was on North-South institutions, decommissioning of weapons and prisoner releases. As a result of this lack of scrutiny, the agreement provides little guidance as to how, and on what criteria, the Secretary of State might make such a momentous decision. There is also little attention given in the agreement to the role of the Irish Government, which would have to absorb Northern Ireland. The Secretary of State is not even required to consult the Irish Government before calling a border poll. The Irish Government would have to decide what special arrangements, if any, it might make to ensure that both communities in Northern Ireland, especially the one that is currently in favour of union with Britain, are made to feel at home in a united Ireland. Symbolic issues, flags, emblems and anthems will need to be worked out. The agreement does not set out how the public finance and tax implications of such a move would be dealt with. Northern Ireland currently receives a net subvention from London, which, if voters opted for a united Ireland, would thereafter have to come from Dublin or be rendered unnecessary by spending reductions in Northern Ireland. I do not know if the Department of Finance in Dublin was even involved in the negotiations of this clause back in 1998.

It will not be easy to predict the issues that might sway voters in a referendum, as we have seen in recent cases. The National Health Service in Britain even became an issue in the Brexit referendum. Incidentally, while a large majority, 67%, of people in the Republic told opinion pollsters in 2021, they would vote for a united Ireland, only 41% said they would be prepared to pay higher taxes to accommodate it and even fewer would be willing to change the national flag or the national anthem to accommodate the British identity of the unionist population. Of course, answers to hypothetical poll questions about remote future possibilities are not reliable. Opinion poll questions often look only for a yes-no answer. It would be helpful if the intensity of divergent opinions could also be measured. For example, it might be a good idea to invite opinion poll respondents to answer the same question but in two or three different ways. A question could be posed as to whether respondents would vote for a united Ireland regardless of whether a majority of the unionist community was resolutely opposed to it. That is one formula. Another question could inquire whether a respondent would support a united Ireland if evidence suggested a significant proportion, say 45%, of the unionist population were prepared to go along with it on broadly agreed terms and would the opinion of the respondent change if only 30% of unionists were prepared to go along with it. If there were a significant difference in the answers to these questions, it might help the Secretary of State to make a wise decision on whether it was timely to have a border poll.

The Good Friday Agreement requires whichever government is sovereign over Northern Ireland to exercise its powers "with rigorous impartiality" and ensure "just and equal treatment" for the "identities, ethos and aspirations of both communities" in Norther Ireland. "Aspirations" is the key word. By definition, unionists and nationalists have different and contradictory aspirations.

One aspires to a united Ireland, while the other aspires to continued union with Britain. The provision in the Belfast Agreement for a border poll seems, in an important sense, to contradict the parity of esteem between aspirations that is part of the underlying motive force of the agreement. This is because it provides a one-way street to Irish unity, with no possibility of reversal of that decision. While there could be several border polls where the option of a united Ireland is offered and rejected, if that option is once chosen in the last of those polls, that would be it. There would be no going back and no further referendums. The decision in favour of a united Ireland would be final and, in that sense, there is no parity between the aspirations. I am surprised this anomaly did not get more attention in unionist circles. They probably had other problems on their minds.

If a majority in Northern Ireland voted for a united Ireland in a border poll, there would probably still remain a significant minority in Northern Ireland who might continue to aspire to rejoin the United Kingdom. That aspiration is thus treated less favourably in the agreement than the aspiration of nationalists for a united Ireland. One aspiration, once achieved, is irreversible. The other aspiration is reversible, no matter how many earlier border polls confirming it have taken place. As this is the way the agreement was drafted, it is hardly possible to change any of this now but voters, in casting their votes in a border poll, would need to bear in mind the one-sided way in which the proposal was framed. Voters, as citizen legislators, should exercise great caution. Their priority should not be so much the option they would personally like, as finding the option they believe all sides are most likely to be able to live with.

The border poll issue is, and will remain, contentious. Indeed, the constant publicity about it is unsettling. It heightens the tension around the Northern Ireland protocol, which Ulster unionists wrongly see as a stepping stone to a united Ireland. Calling for a united Ireland is seen as patriotic and popular in the Republic, even though repeating such calls may be a barrier to practical reconciliation between the communities in Northern Ireland. Under the border poll provisions of the agreement, a united Ireland could come about by a majority of 51% to 49% or even narrower. As I said, once it has happened, it would be irreversible, at least under the terms of the agreement.

This simple majoritarianism seems to me to run counter to something the then Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds, said in the 1993 Downing Street Declaration: "Stability and well-being will not be found under any political system which is refused allegiance or rejected ... by a significant minority of those governed by it." If a united Ireland is carried by 51% to 49%, it is likely a significant minority in Northern Ireland would refuse allegiance to that decision. This minority would be geographically concentrated in parts of the province where they might constitute a substantial local majority. Experience suggests that policing and security in such areas could become very difficult for a united Ireland government. The framers of the border poll provisions of the Belfast Agreement do not seem to have taken sufficient account of Albert Reynolds's wise words in the Downing Street Declaration. He saw further than they did. He saw that winning the allegiance of minorities was important for political stability. Simple majoritarianism is not enough. Good governance requires minority consent - that is the lesson of Stormont - so unionists and unionism should be taken seriously.

In looking objectively and clinically at the question of how we each, if we live long enough, should vote in a border poll, if it takes place, people on both sides of the Border should ask themselves some difficult questions. They must ask themselves why there are now 33 peace walls, whereas there were only 23 peace walls in 1998. What deeper truth does that reveal? They must ask themselves if the ideals, historic memories and allegiances of Northern unionists can realistically, at the point in time the decision is being made, be reconciled with the ideals, historic memories and allegiances of Irish nationalists. In the past seven years, has there been more or less integration across community lines? I believe, in fact, there has been less and the situation has disimproved. Voters will have to ask themselves, based on evidence at the time, if they can reasonably expect that disparate elements in Northern Ireland can be fused into a new, all-Irish, civic patriotism, and a new identity that a large majority can share and the remaining minority can live with. If people do not believe that is possible at the time, a united Ireland will not work, at least not at that particular point in history and, if so, people should not vote for it. It would, of course, be very difficult to take that decision. Voters will need great wisdom and prudence if we are to achieve the “stability and well-being” envisaged by Albert Reynolds in the Downing Street Declaration.

I believe we should try a different approach. The priority now should be reconciliation within Northern Ireland. The work of reconciliation must be done, in the first place, by the people of Northern Ireland themselves, but with the active support of the Dublin and London Governments. It should be seen as an end in itself and not as a preparation either for a united Ireland or continuance of the union. Indeed, part of the problem is that many nationalists have seen the Good Friday Agreement as a staging post on the road to a united Ireland, whereas many unionists saw it as a final destination and a full settlement. This difference of perception is crucial. Reconciliation requires the creation of a shared perception and shared achievements that become a basis for a shared allegiance. Political leaders in Northern Ireland need to work towards shared achievements, of which all of them can be proud, and that become part of a new shared historic memory, gradually replacing the divisive memories of the past. Shared ideals must be forged by negotiation, discussion and achievement at every level. Unionists must begin to imagine themselves into the minds of nationalists and nationalists into those of unionists. This requires a conscious and structured effort of the imagination among every group in Northern Ireland. Instead of being boosters for one side or the other in the constitutional debate, creative people - actors and so on - should lend their talents to this demanding exercise of the imagination, namely, forging a new shared identity that involves both sides in Northern Ireland.

As I read it, the Good Friday Agreement reflects two core values: rigorous impartiality by the sovereign governments as between the two traditions, and determination of their constitutional future by the people of Northern Ireland, that is, consent. Part of the wisdom of the Belfast Agreement is that it requires whichever capital is sovereign at the time, London or Dublin, to be rigorously impartial between the communities. This would apply even if Northern Ireland had voted to enter a united Ireland. The obligation of impartiality would then be on the shoulders of the Irish Government. The wording is as follows. The two Governments:

affirm that whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, the power of the sovereign government with jurisdiction there shall be exercised with rigorous impartiality on behalf of all the people in the diversity of their identities and traditions and shall be founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos and aspirations of both communities...

The current UK Government, by promoting legislation to disapply almost the entirety of the Northern Ireland protocol, against the wishes of a majority of the Northern Ireland Assembly, is breaching its duties under the Belfast Agreement. It is being partial in favour of one party, the DUP. In so doing, it is placing the DUP in a difficult position and is using them for English political purposes.

I leave it to others to decide what legal remedies might be sought for this breach of impartiality and in what forum.

Quite simply, the current UK Government is not impartial. That is a breach of both the letter and spirit of the Belfast agreement. The UK Government's Bill to disapply the protocol also breaches the principle in the Good Friday Agreement to the affect that the people of Northern Ireland should be able to determine their own future, and that is the principle of consent.

The referendum decision by the people of Northern Ireland, accepting the Good Friday Agreement, was an act of self-determination on their part. The protocol to the withdrawal treaty preserves that sense of self-determination and consent by the people of Northern Ireland because in Article 18 of the protocol there is a provision for the protocol's continued application to be reviewed by the Northern Ireland Assembly every eight years.

It was on the basis of Article 18 that Prime Minister Johnson accepted the protocol. He fought and won a UK general election on that basis. Subsequently, he changed his mind and introduced legislation unilaterally to disapply the protocol. This legislation continues to be part of the UK Government's legislative programme. It has reached Report Stage in the House of Lords, which is a very advanced Stage on the way to signing into law. It is UK legislation which is to be imposed on Northern Ireland. There is no equivalent of Article 18 in the protocol disapplication Bill. The Northern Ireland Assembly has no right to review this decision. It will be imposed, indefinitely, by the British regardless of what a majority of the Northern Ireland people say. This legislation should be withdrawn. Of course the legislation also breaches international law because it attempts a unilateral revision of an international treaty.

I thank Mr. Bruton for his interesting paper, which has lots of different points of view. This committee will be delighted to debate the issue with him and I have no doubt members will challenge him on some of the assertions and issues in his paper. I think his paper brings fresh air into our debate here. I appreciate him coming here to present his detailed analysis.

Mr. Bruton has said in his presentation that "both nationalism and unionism need to re-examine their underlying assumptions ... this committee is a place where that work might start." One of our problems at this committee is that while unionists have the right to come here and participate in all of our debates, they choose not to do so. Recently we made some progress on our visit to Westminster where we met the members of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons. We have agreed that we would work together and unionists are happy to participate in that committee as Members of the UK Houses of Parliament. That is one way we can have the debate, which is absolutely lacking on this island so, in a public forum, nationalists, unionists and the people who choose neither side can debate and discuss fully.

Is it in order that we return to our original proposal? So it is Fianna Fáil first for 15 minutes, then Fine Gael which will be followed by Sinn Féin, the SDLP, the Alliance, the Green Party, the Labour Party, the Independents and Aontú. I advise Mr. Bruton that we have a clock, each party chooses a speaker and people say what they wish. I am quite sure that there will be interesting comments.

I wish to convey apologies on behalf of Deputy Brendan Smith who is not around today. There is a vote in the Seanad Chamber bit I think there is enough cover and this debate is too important for me to leave.

I thank Mr. Bruton for his contribution and for the work that he has done as Taoiseach of this country. I thank him for the preparatory work he did during his tenure as premier of this country, which paved the way for the formation of thinking and bringing Heads of State together not just on this island but in the UK. It is no minor feat to bring a Tory leader to the table, get the agreement that he sought and got from him, and secure the Sunningdale Declaration.

Part of the reason that the committee has asked Mr. Bruton and colleagues of his in here is to establish the background to the lead into the Good Friday Agreement. Certainly Senator Currie and I are big advocates for bringing in the architects of the Good Friday Agreement or the lead into that agreement in order to establish the complexities. We seek that because a narrative exists, and I am not trying to be derogatory when I say this, that we now have a conversation, and maybe a citizens' assembly, and a border poll sorted. Dealing with Northern Ireland has historically been quite complex. Mr. Bruton has gone beyond his term and referred to 200 years of history in his presentation but, unfortunately, I will not have time to negotiate all that here today.

Mr. Bruton is a man with an extensive knowledge of history, which he has shown over the years. Too many people like him have left the offices of the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Department of Foreign Affairs and left these Houses so we do not get the benefit of all of their knowledge and wisdom. We do not make enough use of all that knowledge and wisdom that they brought to the table over the years. I feel even to this day, in terms of the relationships that they opened in the UK and Northern Ireland, we should have made better use of them. We should find a forum in which Mr. Bruton and all the other former Taoisigh, Tánaistí and Ministers for Finance can contribute because they built up so many relationships over the years. I think that their input and the rebuilding of those relationships where their counterparts are still around maybe in the UK could bear fruit for us in the next number of years.

Mr. Bruton made an awful lot of statements in his presentation and I cannot go into them all but I shall start by commenting on the lead into the Good Friday Agreement in which he was involved. From all of his deliberations, what lessons does he feel that we, as politicians, have not learned? Are there areas that we should examine that are not currently on the table? Is our approach to dealing with Northern Ireland on the right track? What is his opinion of the work of the shared island unit? What is his opinion of its approach? Does he think the approach will delve into unionist communities to get responses and overall get an understanding of where this country lies, North and South of the Border, economically, health wise, educationally and across the board?

Mr. John Bruton

I shall first address what the Chairman said. In a way one does not have to have a unionist presence for nationalists to re-examine their consciences any more than one does not have to have nationalists present for unionists to re-examine their consciences.

I totally agree.

Mr. John Bruton

A parallel process-----

We need to talk to each other.

Mr. John Bruton

We need to talk to each other.

Mr. John Bruton

Also, one can envisage the possibility that the committee can do its work here and they can do their work wherever.

We must work together

Mr. John Bruton

Exactly.

That is the whole point. If we do not do that then this is not going to work. We must directly engage with unionism.

Mr. John Bruton

I fully agree. I thank Senator Blaney for suggesting the committee has use for people like me at this late stage.

Mr. John Bruton

I spent a lot of time working on this paper and went back through all the different sources of information like White Papers, the CAIN chronology and all that stuff.

The funny thing is that it is only when you leave office that you fully understand some of the things you were dealing with. You have a certain perspective that you do not have when you are in the middle of the heat of battle. What can we learn from our experiences? The Good Friday Agreement was negotiated under acute pressure. The pressure was partly to make sure the IRA did not return to violence. We should not be too critical. I was quite critical in my presentation about some of the omissions in the Good Friday Agreement. I think one should not be too critical of them but no document is the last word on any problem. There is a case for looking at aspects of the Good Friday Agreement from various perspectives to see how it can be improved. Perhaps that is something this committee could look at - not in the sense of denigrating the achievement of the agreement but to build on it.

Mr. Bruton made a reference to the legislation going through Westminster and referenced the protocol Bill. This committee had a deputation over there a number of weeks ago and I was part of a deputation in Brussels last week. I certainly share Mr. Bruton's concerns. Moreover, I also share the concerns about the legacy Bill. It was very evident during our trip to London that the Tories are determined to pass this legacy Bill which, rather than being centred around the victims is more to do with a favour by the Tories for veterans in the UK. The message we got in London was that the Tories will get this passed come what may before the next general election in the UK. We have seen the mood music with the new Prime Minister in London, which seems very good. We had a number of talks last week in Brussels. The mood music has not changed very much in Brussels. My fear is that if the Tories are so intent on passing this legislation, I do not see the protocol issue coming to a conclusion before the legislation is passed and possibly is part of the reason the game-playing continues at negotiation level. The fear is that the protocol will not change in the next six months. Where does that leave us? What is Mr. Bruton's opinion of the proposed legacy Bill that is also going through the Houses of Parliament?

Mr. John Bruton

As I understand it, the proposed legacy Bill is not going to afford relatives of victims the opportunity to learn the full truth of what happened and that is not satisfactory. I can see the problem. English nationalism is very much built around the armed forces. It is part of their sense of themselves. I remember the late Paddy Hillery saying to me when we discussed the English in Áras an Uachtaráin in 1980s "they're a very warlike people". Part of the expression of English nationalism is a reverence for the armed forces and this is the difficulty.

Like the Senator, I am quite pessimistic about the protocol. I know the mood music is better but better mood music costs nothing. No sacrifices have to be made by anybody. We are dealing with a government in London that is on its last legs where most people know they will not be back. They are basically quite desperate, which means they might pull the whole house down on top of them. Hopefully, that will not be the case but when you see so many people leaving politics in Great Britain, it is very worrying. I know Irish diplomats were very successful in the 1980s in building up to the Anglo-Irish Agreement in the talking and wining and dining of Tory MPs. I would say there is a case for that now but I do not envy Irish diplomats who must undertake that task. It is not easy.

There will be a break at 3.20 p.m. I must leave for a family reason. My sister and her husband are getting a distinguished award from the President and I am one of the lucky invited guests so members will have to excuse me. I will not be here for much of the debate. Some people from whom we have heard have said that in respect of a border poll, they believed at that time that it was implicit in the agreement that the British would have to consult with the Irish Government even though, as Mr. Bruton rightly points out, it is not written down. It is clearly a weakness that not enough thought was put into that. They were firm that there would have to be consultation before the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland would form that opinion. Mr. Bruton has raised some excellent ideas.

I offer my congratulations to Ciarán Stanton, Orlaith and Kathleen for the award they are receiving and for the wonderful work they have done in the field of sepsis as a family since the tragic passing of their son, Rory. It is hugely important. It is appropriate in this committee because Ciarán Stanton and his family have done so much in the US for the peace process and everything so I wish them well.

Do not forget the O'Dowds as well.

Do not forget Niall.

Of course, but I have no doubt that the work done around sepsis has saved lives.

That is very kind of the Deputy.

I am struck by Mr. Bruton's comments on the Canary Wharf bombing, where it was very clear that this operation had been planned for months. During that time, Sinn Féin was in background talks with Senator Mitchell and reassuring him of its bona fides. I looked up the Canary Wharf bombing again. One hundred people were hurt, mainly by broken glass, and 39 needed hospital treatment. Most of the injured were staff in an nearby office block. A British-Moroccan family was sitting in their car beside the bomb. The car was wrecked by the blast and the father received severe head injuries that left him permanently disabled. A woman was blinded in one eye by shards of glass and needed 300 stitches on her face and arms. How did Senator Mitchell and other leaders handle that? On one hand, they were talking with Sinn Féin behind the scenes while on the other, the IRA was murdering innocent civilians. How could that circle be squared?

Mr. John Bruton

Senator Mitchell had finished his consultations with all the parties, including Sinn Féin and the IRA, before the bomb and before he issued his report. It is highly unlikely that the IRA or Sinn Féin, if they knew, would have told him "by the way, we're planning something shortly."

I do not think he had guilty knowledge at all. The tone of his report suggested he was quite optimistic about there being an end to the violence but, in fact, it was not the end. That is all I can say about it.

Mr. Bruton left office on 26 June 1997 and Tony Blair came into office the following day. While their careers as leaders of their respective countries did not overlap, will Mr. Bruton give a view on the contrasting approaches of John Major and Tony Blair to Northern Ireland?

Mr. John Bruton

Actually, I did overlap as Taoiseach with Tony Blair, admittedly very briefly, for something like six weeks. The situations for the two leaders were quite different. John Major was down in the trenches fighting for survival and did not have the same degree of manoeuvrability that Tony Blair had. I think he was a very sincere man, as was Tony Blair, but I never had to do any hard negotiating with Tony Blair. My successor, Bertie Ahern, did that.

We are under time pressure, so I cannot thank Mr. Bruton as enthusiastically as I would like. I thank him for his work in building those stepping stones to the Good Friday Agreement, to peace on our island and as a member of our party, Fine Gael. I thank him personally for our interactions over the years. It is great to see him have this opportunity to take a 360 degree view. He has laid out a very important for us.

He is highly critical of the demands for a border poll that we have seen since the general election of 2020. I agree that calls for a border poll under those circumstances are not helpful and fly in the face of anyone who claims not to want a situation like Brexit. Can he nonetheless separate out the calls for a border poll from the need for conversations about constitutional change? How essential is it to separate out calls for a border poll from looking at the future in an open, open-minded and inclusive way that is not under a time constraint or cast with an inevitability about either time or a predestination, if that is what the people want us to do?

There have been shifting sands since Brexit. Mr. Bruton used the word "alienation" in his document. Some people on this island feel alienated by the behaviour and actions of the British Government over recent years in the context of legacy and the protocol, and they are unity-curious. Ireland is a very different country from what it was decades ago. In the document, Mr. Bruton alluded to the importance of stepping stones and to avoiding cliff-edge change. It strikes me this is not about cliff-edge change or border polls but rather about stepping stones and carving out an environment in which those stepping stones can be progressed.

He acknowledged unionism might lead a debate on the Union and on persuading the middle ground to be part of the Union, and he acknowledged there are unanswered questions from the Good Friday Agreement of 1998 and omissions in that regard. I suspect that is because it is up to us to decide how the future might look, but the Good Friday Agreement does not go into finance, tax or subventions. I agree with Mr. Bruton that the Department of Finance probably was not consulted. This involves a huge body of work. Does he agree that work should be undertaken in a very respectful way in keeping with the Good Friday Agreement? I echo his vision of reconciliation and the importance of a shared identity, and it is important we have a place and a way to talk about our hopes about that. It is important that there be a life beyond isms and we have to build that life and vision. That is our best chance of securing majority consent over time in a respectful, methodical and careful way.

Mr. John Bruton

I do not think this is going to be a one-stage process. The first stage is reconciliation. I do not think a border poll would be a success or would achieve an outcome that is broadly accepted unless there has been reconciliation first. Reconciliation is not just about whether the split is 51:49, 45:55 or whatever. It is about the communities in Northern Ireland getting to like one other enough to say that whatever outcome is decided, they can live with the other people and that they will help them to live with it from the point of view of their own interests. It is about that sense of a common interest between the communities in Northern Ireland, although it is arguable there are three communities there, given there is a middle ground as well that is neither unionist or nationalist.

The border poll is provided for in the Good Friday Agreement. I certainly would not suggest we rule out holding one at some stage. It is provided for that it would be decided by a simple majority. That issue cannot be changed; that is the way it is. Nevertheless, while that may be the legal position, we have to be prudent and prudence suggests the reconciliation must come before the border poll.

The Senator also asked what the Irish Government should be doing. There is no reason it should not be carrying out work on how a united Ireland might look, not on the basis it is promoting this idea as something to be campaigned for against the wishes of a large number in Northern Ireland but rather as part of the normal exercise of government, which prepares for every contingency. Contingency planning is part of government. There are plans for things we hope will never happen and for ones we hope will happen. There are all sorts of contingency planning and this should be seen as sensible and important contingency planning, looking at the financing, the flags, the emblems and what sort of relationships we will have.

One question concerns what unionists regard as important, and this goes back to what the Chairman was saying earlier. Finding out what unionists regard as important is very important and we have to find ways of responding to that. How we can respond to it and satisfy our own constituents is one thing, but the first stage is about finding out what unionists would feel positively affected by. I recast my remarks, therefore, in response to what he was saying.

The question of reconciliation is the key theme - we all agree on that - but the main problem we have is that we cannot talk to unionists officially in a forum in which they are confident and happy and do not feel threatened. That is why we are looking at our relationship to the UK Parliament. Mr. Bruton is correct to say it is an absolutely legitimate aspiration to want a united Ireland and to examine that, but implicit in all that is reconciliation and listening, learning and working together.

I am just commenting now because I have to go soon. The shared island unit had a very good debate in Dublin Castle on Monday. There was a lady there representing the Protestant community who made the point that her community, a working-class community, is destroyed with drugs and crime, just like our communities. If we are really serious about change in both the North and South, we have to tackle this. If we can work on initiatives that benefit everybody regardless of their political opinions, improve the health service, transport and communications, fight drugs and achieve a better quality of life, particularly for poorer people, it will be the way forward.

I thank Mr. Bruton for answering my question and separating the calls for an immediate border poll from calls to genuinely do the groundwork on what the future could look like.

I thank Mr. Bruton very much for attending. On my colleague's question on a border poll, I sometimes feel arguments to have a border poll today, tomorrow or in five years without any real conversation about what comes next envisage the poll as an end in itself. It is a bit like achieving Irish independence in that this was an end in itself without the statecraft determining what should follow next. The idea of a poll being an end in itself is a big problem for me. What is Mr. Bruton's view on that?

Mr. John Bruton

The choice between a united Ireland and staying in the union is a very binary, stark one. Unfortunately, in real life you need to have room to blur things a little to make progress. Stark choices are inherently difficult, simply because they are stark – involving one or the other, yes or no. I hope building the investment in reconciliation will work. How to define that requires more work than I have been able to do. A lengthy investment in that will create new angles and even new vocabulary for describing the relationship on the island of Ireland. We have been very stuck on ideas of sovereignty or unitary sovereignty as if it were the be-all and end-all. To my mind, that is very much a British idea dating back to the 19th century. It was not the view on the Continent of Europe. The Holy Roman Empire and such entities were not operating on the basis of a single locus for sovereignty. We need to discover new ways of thinking about things. That is why it would be good if the unionists were to get involved in the discussions about the reorganisation of the UK. The problem I find in dealing with the unionists is that they do not take responsibility. They know what they do not like but do not take responsibility for finding a solution. They voted for Brexit and yet took no ownership of the consequences of their decision. They need to be encouraged to step up and take responsibility, as of course we do.

Mr. Mickey Brady

I thank Mr. Bruton for his long and very detailed presentation. I have a few questions. As an architect of the Good Friday Agreement, what rights set out in it did he promote and advocate? Have they been implemented? As we know, the purpose of this committee is the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. Several strands and facets of it have not yet been implemented.

My second question seeks Mr. Bruton's opinion. He stated a few times today that he believes a border poll would be destabilising and divisive. Does he believe the partition of this island continues to be destabilising and divisive?

We have met several successive British Secretaries of State in the past few years. None of them has been able to give us a definitive answer on the criteria that might be used in the event of a border poll being called. In the Good Friday Agreement, the specific figure mentioned is 50% plus one, with which Mr. Bruton appears to disagree. Does he have a figure in mind that might placate unionists, in particular, in the event of a border poll?

Mr. John Bruton

I actually said in my presentation that I accept 50% plus one is sufficient. We cannot change that at this stage. An attempt to change it would go nowhere. I do not believe in tilting at windmills for no purpose. That is what we have got to live with. However, we must ask the voters to take a more sophisticated view of the matter and ask, in deciding to vote at a particular time, whether that time is ripe for a united Ireland. They must ask whether it would work at the given time and whether sufficient reconciliation has taken place such that 50% plus one would be enough. If there is not enough groundwork for a harmonious united Ireland that fulfils the criteria that Albert Reynolds put forward in the Downing Street Declaration, people should not vote for it. That does not mean they should not be asked. They are free to vote. People are not obliged to vote for a proposition just because it is put forward. We are free agents and can decide. We can decide at one time to vote in one direction and maybe two years later to vote in another. We have seen that in referenda in Ireland in the past. We got it right eventually. We cannot change the 50% plus one.

I agree that partition was destabilising. I thank Mr. Brady for his patience. My address was rather long. In it, I tried to outline the background to the idea of partition. It did not arise in the 1920 Act out of nowhere; it had been canvassed as a possibility for the previous 30 years by certain people who felt there would not be adequate security and peace with home rule without some form of exclusion. I do not believe the Liberal Government of 1914 would have gone to war to impose a united Ireland under home rule. Maybe it would but it was never tested. I am not so sure that, if it had done so, it would have been in our interests. We have a legacy of violence and other things we regret, but things are not as bad as they could have been.

On the question concerning what I advocated, I was not involved in the final negotiations. I was present at the preliminary negotiations so I am not going to make any big claims. The framework document that was negotiated, principally by Mr. Dick Spring as part of the Government of which I was Taoiseach, and that we agreed with the British envisaged a much more extensive role for the North–South bodies than the Good Friday Agreement. In fact, the outcome on the North–South bodies was very disappointing, and the outcome in practice has been even more disappointing.

Mr. Mickey Brady

I thank Mr. Bruton for his answers. We all agree that much work must be done and many conversations must be had in working towards reunification. The process has to be consensual and people have to be persuaded.

Unlike many of those present, I am in the fortunate position of being able to deal with people from the unionist community on a daily basis in my constituency. It is about having those conversations and being able to try to explain to people what it is all about. For the first time in my lifetime, and I have around for a fair long time, people are having conversations. I honestly think that civic unionism is way ahead of political unionism in this respect. I do not know if Mr. Bruton would agree with that, but certainly it has been my experience in talking to people in civic unionism that they are very far ahead of their political representatives.

Mr. John Bruton

I would not disagree with that. Mr. Brady is in a better position to judge that than I am. If he says that civic unionism has moved substantially, I am more than willing to accept that. I hope it is true.

Mr. Mickey Brady

I thank Mr. Bruton. Gabhaim buíochas leis.

Deputy Tully has eight minutes left.

Other witnesses were here a few weeks ago representing Amnesty International. There expressed grave concern about the UK Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill, which Senator Blaney has already mentioned. They stated, Amnesty had "grave concern about and opposition to the Troubles Bill, which would institute a de facto amnesty for grave human rights violations committed during the conflict." They said the Bill "fails to comply with the UK’s human rights obligations; it is a significant interference in the justice system; it undermines the rule of law; and it will set a dangerous precedent internationally" because it would signal to other states that they too can give this sort of amnesty as well.

Has Mr. Bruton had an opportunity to contact the relatives of the victims of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings or the Dundalk bombings or, in the case of my local area, the Belturbet bombing in which two young people lost their lives and for which the 50th anniversary will be marked in a few weeks, to talk to them in respect of the British Government's intention to grant immunity to the English intelligence and security agencies and their loyalist murder squad allies from prosecution for these atrocities? One might think 50 years is a long time and people will have moved on. It is not true. The hurt does not diminish. We had a number of witnesses before the committee who had lost relatives in 1976 and it was evident from their evidence that the hurt is still there, and they want answers and justice. Has Mr. Bruton spoken to any of the families of victims about the amnesty Bill to which there is clear opposition? Has he used his role in Europe to advance the rights of Irish citizens on this matter?

Mr. John Bruton

I do not have any role in Europe any more. I ceased to have a role in Europe in 2009. I am sure I have met some of the victims but I have not systematically sought them out. The legislation is unacceptable and I do not accept it. I hope that some form of compromise can be devised whereby there is accountability and information about what happened and all of that, acknowledging, as the Deputy has, that many of the people concerned are elderly at this stage. That applies to those who were paramilitaries who committed atrocities too because paramilitary atrocities are no less atrocious than British army atrocities and we have to recognise both.

I was in touch with the Chairman about Mr. Pádraig Yeates.

Mr. Yeates has been in contact. He wrote to the committee.

Mr. John Bruton

Mr. Yeates came in with some proposals. I am associated with his group in supporting proposals that would go some way to meet Deputy Tully's concerns. Whether they are adequate or not, I cannot say. The Deputy should talk to the group. To be honest, I am retired and I do not engage in day-to-day political activity, as the Deputy does.

I should make the point that it is the British Government that is introducing the amnesty for its soldiers. No other organisation is looking for this amnesty and it does not have the support of any party on this island.

Mr. John Bruton

I know.

Our calls for a border poll are being made on a regular basis. It seems to be almost ignored here that we are also calling constantly for preparation for unity. Those talks need to happen. As Mr. Brady said, it is happening constantly on the ground among people in the North who are ahead of the political parties. The Government needs to start working on preparing for that poll.

Mr. John Bruton

The trouble with visibly and with a lot of clamour preparing is that while it is popular with the electorate here, which sees it as a one-up for us and we are on the way to adding the fourth green field, it is not necessarily seen in the same way in the unionist community. Maybe the civic unionism is beginning to see it differently but I do not think we are not there yet in Ballymena, Bushmills or east Belfast. We do not think we have arrived at a situation where people are fully ready for that. However, we need to put effort into finding out what people think. The committee could look at that and how it can objectively find out what are the underlying anxieties of unionists and how these can be allayed. Some of the things they are anxious about we may think they are not anxious about and some of the things they are not anxious about we may think they are anxious about. We need to research their concerns more deeply, not in a clamorous, publicity-seeking way but rather below the radar so that we are ready if the opportunity arises to do something.

There are two minutes left in the slot

I have only two minutes but I can come contribute again, if the Chairman wishes.

Of course.

I want to talk about the economic preparation that needs to be done. In the first instance, in all of Mr. Bruton's time in government, did he read Anne Cadwallader's book, Lethal Allies?

Mr. John Bruton

No.

He did not. Right, okay.

Mr. John Bruton

No. What is the Deputy trying to prove with that question?

In fairness.

Honestly, I am not trying to prove anything. What was in that book in terms of collusion, I found quite shocking. I live in Mayo.

Mr. John Bruton

I read Seamus Mallon's book, which contains very stark evidence of collusion and he names names in that book. We may have different literary tastes but the Deputy and I are concerned about the issues.

It was not that. I want to leave the rest of my slot to the next session because I have only 43 seconds.

It is appropriate to take a break now. The Vice Chair is on his way. We will suspend for five minutes because I have to go.

Before I do, we need Mr. Bruton back because he is stimulating debate and there are issues we need to probe further. If there is anything I can say from what I am gathering from talking to unionists in my very small way, it is they are telling me that if we can work on issues of health, housing and cross-Border economic co-operation, all of which they want, we can look at a future together, but if we do not get that consensus, it will not happen. Also, if we force it on people, we will only end up with a significant minority who will have an equivalent of an IRA campaign down here in 15 or 20 years' time, and it will not work.

Sitting suspended at 3.19 p.m. and resumed at 3.37 p.m.
Deputy James Lawless took the Chair.

We will start the second phase of this session on the implementation and after-effects of the Good Friday Agreement, part of a series of meetings we have been holding. I am pleased to take over from the Chair. I followed the debate from my office. I look forward to reading the iar-Taoiseach's submissions. There is quite a lot of detail and depth in them. I listened to Mr. Bruton deliver them and I will review them because quite a lot of substantive thought has gone into them. I thank him for that.

I will go round the table. Deputy Wynne is up next. I will put a question of my own first because I did not speak during the initial slot. Some of the conversation has covered this but I will ask Mr. Bruton about the Government position. I was interested in his earlier remarks. Should the Irish Government be a persuader in regard to potential unity, or a Border poll or unity poll, or should it be a neutral arbitrator? Does its role as a guarantor of the agreement imbue duties either way in respect of that? I would be interested to hear his thoughts on that initially. We will then go around the table.

Mr. John Bruton

The Constitution obliges the Government to be more than just neutral. The Government has an obligation to facilitate movement towards Irish unity. Whether it arrives at that destination is another matter, but it has to be done on the basis that there has to be consent from a majority of the people in Northern Ireland to any outcome.

On being a persuader, what persuades? One has to ask oneself, what would persuade unionists to want to be ruled from Dublin rather than London? I have always felt, including during my time as Taoiseach, that unionists have better friends in Dublin than London. We are nearer to them physically and culturally.

We are not nearer to them religiously or in terms of historic memory but we are nearer to them in many respects. The relative scale of the two communities on the island of Ireland, and there are two communities at least, is such that unionists are not going to be overwhelmed as much in an all-Ireland context as they would be in an all-UK context. They probably do not see it that way at this stage. We must be patient. They will not necessarily see it that way in ten, 15 or 20 years from now either. We have got to be patient in trying to create the conditions in which they will feel fully comfortable. This may mean we have to become a bit uncomfortable. As I said in my opening address, we made a fetish of getting rid of the monarchy when in fact it could have been a bridge in certain contexts. We made a fetish about the Irish language. It is important but it did exclude unionists. Our flag depends on how it is interpreted. It is peace between orange and green but, unfortunately, it is a flag that has been waved at so many political accounts by one party in such a fashion as to make it almost a partisan banner. This is something that has to change if we are to persuade, as the Vice Chair aptly put it.

That is excellent. That is very useful. On this theme, was Mr. Bruton surprised and-or disappointed at the recent polling that suggested Northern Ireland residents, particularly those of the unionist persuasion, were not yet persuaded?

Mr. John Bruton

I was neither surprised nor disappointed.

I thought that after Brexit there might have been a greater-----

Mr. John Bruton

No. Unfortunately the issue of the Brexit protocol has polarised opinion in Northern Ireland to a degree that is no longer fully rational. Unionism is not behaving rationally at present because it is so exercised by the very high theoretical concept of sovereignty that it has and any EU legislation applying in Northern Ireland is somehow totally unacceptable. Governments throughout the world have entered international agreements where rules made elsewhere apply to them. They have been doing this all the time.

As I said earlier, there is a view of sovereignty and the interpretation of sovereignty that is peculiarly English. I believe Dicey wrote about it. He was a unionist by the way. It has a distorted opinion and has made people fixated on the theory of sovereignty when, in fact, in continental Europe there is multilevel sovereignty. There are all sorts of arrangements whereby people have different allegiances in parallel with one another. They do not conflict but they are not the same. We need to move into this. I remember John Hume speaking about the parallel whereby people can be Spanish, Catalan and European at the same time. Unionists need to think that they can be Ulster unionist and adhere to the covenant while being Irish, British and European all at the same time. This is not an impossible task for the human mind to encompass. This is what we must do. With regard to whether we can persuade them, I am not so sure we have to be formally a persuader. They are more likely to persuade themselves than we are to persuade them. This is the way it works. People are rarely persuaded by others. They are persuaded by themselves.

I thank Mr. Bruton.

I thank Mr. Bruton for his contribution. Some have already referred to how long it was but it was truly beneficial to someone like me. It provided much-needed background. In some ways it painted quite a picture for those of us who were not involved. This is the first meeting of the committee in which I have been able to take part. It is very apt that it is with one of the architects of the Good Friday Agreement. I am very grateful for this.

Mr. Bruton mentioned that the constant focus on a border poll is destabilising. Other speakers have touched on this issue already but I want to go back to it. Many would agree that such a focus is putting the cart before the horse. In Mr. Bruton's view what would be more stabilising steps that would be a better approach? Much the same as there being steps in reaching the Good Friday Agreement what would be the practical steps before an effective border poll can take place? I believe that 50% plus one, if achieved, would be difficult to manage with such margins of consent. It may be enough under the Good Friday Agreement but it would be a concern as to how it would be responded to locally.

Mr. Bruton mentioned reconciliation. This is very important. Instead of it being a word or an idea, how do we materialise it and bring true meaning to it? This brings me to Mr. Bruton's comments on commemorations. What are his thoughts on this? He mentioned commemorating acts that unionists regard as terrorism and possibly vice versa. How can we find a balance on harm and offence and having the right sensitivity on such emotional matters for those affected?

The Vice Chair mentioned that is very difficult to get unionists here to engage but that the committee's recent visit to Westminster proved slightly more successful. I want to briefly mention that I agree with the Vice Chair's comments on the commonalities and hardships that affect all people, no matter how they identify. This is a better way to bring collaboration to work together and to find common ground for those who feel there are major differences. Mr. Bruton explained the twin-track approach. There were many difficulties to which he referred in the lead-up to being able to get it across the line. Does he have more information on how he managed to persuade successfully in this regard?

Mr. John Bruton

Bill Clinton was about to arrive in this part of the world. I phoned John Major the day before and said we do not want to be telling this man there is nothing doing. I suggested that we meet. We had already been discussing the idea of a twin-track approach. I had met John Major on various occasions. He was attracted by the idea, as was I. The unionists wanted an election and said they would speak to people after an election. Sometimes the best way to get the hay to the market is to put it on someone else's trailer. I said that if the unionists were offering the trailer of an election that would get us all into talks, why not avail of it. I thought that was important.

It was later, of course, that they elected. The twin-track approach was basically pushed on the basis that the US President was coming and we had an opportunity and a deadline. We have to seize deadlines when they are there and use them as leverage to get something. We made progress and took an approach whereby we discussed decommissioning on one track and political relations on another track. One did not interfere with the other. Then, we eventually got the talks launched on 10 June. That was what led to the Good Friday Agreement. That vehicle of the election brought us there, even though many Irish nationalist opinion at the time, such as the SDLP and Sinn Féin, were opposed to the idea of an election. In retrospect that was a mistake.

The Deputy asked many questions and I am sorry I have forgotten the order of them. Can she remind me about-----

It was around reconciliation and how it materialised after.

Mr. John Bruton

I have said a lot about reconciliation in this session but I cannot put flesh on the bones of it. Responsibility has to be taken by the people in Northern Ireland themselves. If unionists want the union to work, they must make Northern Ireland work. If nationalists want to persuade unionists that a United Ireland would be a success, they must before that make Northern Ireland a success. Both must get a sense of ownership of a shared achievement. I cannot say what that achievement should be. It is something for people in Northern Ireland to work on. It can be works of the imagination, works of literature or cultural and sporting activities. Sport is hugely significant. The fact that Arlene Foster attended the Ulster football final when Fermanagh was playing was very important. I do not want to insult anybody by saying that I hope Fermanagh will win the Ulster final again. It would be helpful if it got Arlene Foster to come.

There are also divisions in the churches. I am a strong believer in Catholic education and I am a practising Catholic but getting unionist and nationalist children to be together at school could in the particular context of Northern Ireland be even more important than denominational education. In the context of sport, Cliftonville Football Club and Glentoran Football Club represent opposite sides of the political divide in soccer in Belfast. We must try to create conditions in which people feel more comfortable joining the football club of the other side and vice versa. This could be almost as a gesture. There is also the fact that people had classes in Irish in east Belfast, which was important. A lot of little things will make reconciliation.

Before I move on to the next speaker, I want to acknowledge the presence of the former MP and former MLA, Alasdair McDonnell, in the Gallery. He is very welcome.

I do not think that anybody is contributing online, so we will go to the Sinn Féin and Deputy Conway Walsh.

I completely agree with Mr. Bruton on reconciliation and the role of education. It is interesting that this time, in the new HEA Bill, that will replace a 50-year-old Act, the HEA is tasked with increasing student mobility across the island. Each of the HEIs, in turn, will do their own thing. Does Mr. Bruton agree that would be a positive step in not only the educational opportunities it would create, but in creating a better understanding at third level?

Mr. John Bruton

Absolutely. The Erasmus programme has done that for the European Union. In fact, if some young people are asked, “What is good about the EU?”, the only thing that they can come up with is the Erasmus programme, which of course displays a lack of knowledge on their part, but it also shows the importance of what the Deputy is saying about links in education. One of the worrying thing is the extent to which people from unionist population are getting their third level education in Britain rather than in Ireland, including in Northern Ireland. That is sort of deracinating. It is not in our interest that there should not be well educated, confident, intelligent leadership amongst unionists because if we want to do business with them, we want them to be people who are confident in themselves. However, if they go to university in London,York, Strathclyde or somewhere like that and then get a job in the Scottish Civil Service and are never seen again, they are not making the sort of contribution that they could make to this island. That is an interest as well. I am not as familiar as the Deputy is with the legislation she was quoting, but it sounds like a good idea.

What Mr. Bruton is saying bears out in terms of the brain drain from the North with people studying in Britain rather than on an all-island basis. The ESRI report by Adele Bergin and Seamus McGuinness, that was published last week as part of the shared island initiative cited the impact the brain drain has on productivity in the North, as well as the disparities there.

Regarding the subvention, the figure that has been quoted is €10 billion. The actual headline figure is €9.4 billion. This does a disservice to the debate in a sense when we look at the taxation. It is easy to quantify the income tax, domestic rates, etc., by individuals in the North but it is not so easy to measure the taxation of businesses such as corporation tax, capital gains tax and VAT because many companies operating in the North have their headquarters in England and, in particular, in London. Taking the figures crudely like that does a disservice. When looking at the identifiable expenditure, such as €1.4 billion for UK defence that would not form part of expenditure, the Trident nuclear weapons programme and the diplomatic services, the most interesting figure probably is the €3.438 billion for pensions. As Mr. Bruton will be aware, there must be 100,000 English people living quite happily in the South, but many of them have pensions from England and that would remain the same in the North in the event of Irish unity. I do not know if he has looked at the subvention or at the economics around it.

I also raise some of the academic reports that were done. I should acknowledge that the report that I quoted about the figures is by Professor John Doyle from DCU. There are many academic reports. That is why the people and academia are ahead of the Government in the sense of preparation and examination. We spoke about the figures of 15% plus one earlier on when we spoke about the referendum. A huge study has been done by the London School of Economics on that as well. There is, therefore, a lot of time and resources being put into it, not least by the shared island unit in terms of the research that it is doing. All of those things are helping. Even the other day a report was launched in Buswells Hotel by the grassroots women’s organisation and a number of women who had worked with Ulster University, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and many others.

They produced a report addressing the constitutional question and how it would impact on women, including at grassroots level. Will Mr. Bruton comment on those reports? Is there an indication that the volume of preparation being done outside the political system may not always be recognised collectively?

Mr. John Bruton

The Deputy is correct. The issue will not come down to an argument about tax levels. People will be prepared to take a chance if they think there will be peace. The big worry I have is if there is a border poll and it is carried, but there is not peace after that. That is far more serious than any issue relating to whether we have to pay another penny in the pound on income tax or such calculations. I am not criticising the people to whom the Deputy has referred but the estimates that are made are all speculative. They are talking about what will happen in future but one does not know what will happen in future in terms of economic assumptions. The central worry is what will happen in Ballymena, east Belfast, north Down and similar places if a vote on a united Ireland is carried by 51% to 49%. Are we able and willing to deal with that? Have we built up our security forces to take that on? Do we think that taking that on would not involve perhaps a diversion from other social goals that the Deputy and others would be concerned we pursue? We must ensure we do not become a militarised society because we have taken on more than we can chew. That is my worry. I do not get obsessed about tax levels. I mentioned it in my presentation but it is not the determinative factor.

It is about the components of this and the preparedness. I refer to Scotland, for instance, in terms of the preparation that has been done there at all levels and what has been produced there. We could even look to what has been done in Wales. I lived in England for a long time and I never thought I would see the increase in Wales looking more towards independence. We are not operating in a vacuum. We have responsibilities as Oireachtas Members to prepare, regardless of what the outcome is in future.

Mr. John Bruton

I agree. I said in response to an earlier question that we have a responsibility to be prepared for every contingency. This is a very real contingency. We should prepare in a responsible and careful way, however, rather than blowing trumpets or saying, "We are coming to get you."

In fairness, I do not think anybody is saying that-----

Mr. John Bruton

I know. I am not suggesting the Deputy is suggesting it.

-----either inside or outside politics. There is a responsibility on us all, however, across parties and at all levels of society. What concerns me relates to what I see happening in broader society. I welcome the work that has been done in the Seanad of late and I look forward to that report being published. This committee will do a piece of work as well in the new year in trying to play our part in the preparedness.

The Good Friday Agreement sets out a charter of rights for the island of Ireland. There are so many commitments made as part of the agreement that are yet to be implemented, particularly in respect of the bill of rights and charter of rights. What more needs to be done by the committee and the two governments to ensure the rights that were promised in the agreement come about?

Mr. John Bruton

I confess that I cannot answer that question. I just do not know enough about it. I am sorry.

All right. I will leave it at that. I thank Mr. Bruton.

Going back to Mr. Bruton's paper on the twin-track approach, I want to ask him about the experience of negotiating that and how it was reached. One of the things the committee is trying to do is to look back to the personal experience and learn from it at this remove. His paper refers to the difficulty of finding a way to involve Sinn Féin in political talks, given the existence of a heavily armed group and the threat of that group, and of persuading John Major in that regard. I ask Mr. Bruton to elaborate on his experience of the work that was done on that twin-track approach.

Mr. John Bruton

As I explained earlier, the twin-track approach emanated from a meeting at Downing Street. I was literally talking to John Major almost up to the time the plane took off to bring us to London, trying to persuade him that this was be a good idea, we were nearly there and we should do something to move it on that night because Bill Clinton was coming the next day. In fact, that is how the United States was very helpful - not because of anything it did but because of the interest it showed and the focus or context that provided. I cannot remember who came up with the term "twin-track approach". It was not me anyway. As I explained, it involved parallel discussions. The opposite of the twin-track approach is a preconditions approach, whereby there would be a requirement to decommission before being involved in political talks. That was not going to run. We could not say we were going to have political talks and would leave decommissioning until the end. The unionists would not have accepted that, although, in a way, they ended up accepting it and had to live with it, because that is what the IRA did. The twin-track approach was an obvious compromise between the preconditions - decommissioning first and talks second or talks first and decommissioning second. It was the parallel approach. It was not a stroke of genius but it was a stroke of genius to get it done when we got it done.

I have two other questions relating to Mr. Bruton's paper. With regard to the holding of arms and being asked about welcoming of decommissioning, I refer to his response that to give any other answer would have been to collude in a breach of Article 15. I ask him to elaborate on that briefly.

Mr. John Bruton

It is no secret that when I was Taoiseach I found it irritating beyond belief to be repeatedly asked the same question by journalists about something in respect of which there was nothing new to report. We were just continuing our work. At one stage I was asked whether I would welcome a gesture of decommissioning, such as the visible destruction of three or four machine guns. I said that I would. Sinn Féin got very upset about that because it believed I was accepting British preconditions. I was accepting no such thing. I was acting in accordance with Article 15.6 of the Constitution. It is almost as if, for the purposes of this submission, I had rediscovered Article 15.6. I never hear it mentioned. It rules out private armies in this jurisdiction. That was put in the Constitution by Mr. de Valera. If I may digress, we have a great Constitution. It is a terrific achievement.

It completely rules out private armies. I do not know if my successor as Taoiseach was ever asked that question. I got a bit of stick because of the answer I gave, but I gave the right answer.

Presumably, he would have given the same answer, given the work that he did on it. I can only speculate.

Mr. John Bruton

I do not know. Maybe he has greater verbal dexterity.

My other question is about parity of esteem with regard to aspirations, which is in Mr. Bruton's submission, and the seemingly forever binary approach to the border poll. It is an interesting point that I had not considered in that depth. At any time when we have that conversation, can we build further options into any new constitutional structure? I do not know. I cannot think through it yet.

Mr. John Bruton

I cannot either. One could have a united Ireland that was reversible on approval. That could conceivably be done. It is not impossible but it would not fulfil the Irish national objective which we have persuaded ourselves we must pursue. There is an anomaly, where one aspiration has a one-way street and the other does not.

The other one is up for grabs whenever the circumstances dictate.

Mr. John Bruton

That is asymmetrical. This probably comes from sloppy drafting at the time. People were under much pressure and were focused on other things. I do not think they gave much thought to the Border poll provisions in the Good Friday Agreement talks. We have to unscramble that. It will not be easy, because the first person who suggests any deviation will be in big trouble. That is not to say that the overall agreement might not be something we should look at again, in total, to see if it can be improved. I am not sure how that is to be achieved. I think the shared island unit is good. The Deputy from Mayo referred to valuable work, too.

I have questions about what Mr. Bruton said about reconciliation and how it must be done in the first place by the people of Northern Ireland themselves, with the active support of Dublin and London Governments. Where does he see politicians coming into that in the North? He has heard, and I would agree, that society is ahead of the politicians when it comes to reconciliation and the activities that we applaud, such as the learning of Irish in east Belfast. What hope does the current leadership of the main parties have for reconciliation beyond football matches and gestures?

Mr. John Bruton

Was there not a suggestion of a civil society forum for the Good Friday Agreement?

There was. One of the deliverables is a civil forum. It has never been implemented. It is one of the things that we focus on.

Mr. John Bruton

That is one place to start. I did not mention it in my opening contribution, but it would be a good start. One is not taking the responsibility away from politicians but creating another forum for discussion where possibilities can be opened up and canvassed when politicians might be afraid to raise them themselves, in case some of their supporters do not like what they are saying, since politicians are inherently cautious people. The civil society forum could provide a safety valve for other ideas to escape.

I thank our former Taoiseach, Mr. Bruton, for coming today. People like him give fantastic insight and remind us what happened over many years in Northern Ireland, as well as an insight into the Troubles and the difficulties and complexities of Northern Ireland. Getting cross-party agreement is not easily achieved and will not be easily achieved in the future. Mr. Bruton's contribution gives society an insight into those difficulties and a better understanding of the complexities and how to plan better for any future agreements. I thank Mr. Bruton for sharing.

I think those are fitting closing remarks from Senator Blaney. I thank him. The iar-Taoiseach's submissions were excellent and will be a useful resource to this committee and all of us as individuals beyond this meeting and into the future. The fact that he provided such a considered written submission to complement his oral submission to today's hearing is extremely useful to all of us. I thank Mr. Bruton for his time today. I hope he found it as informative and useful as we did. We certainly benefited. The point was made earlier that this committee provides a somewhat unique opportunity for former parliamentarians and holders of high office to give back that knowledge and wisdom so that we can avail of it, because otherwise it is often lost to the ether when people move on. I thank Mr. Bruton.

I ask members to remain because there is private business to take care of. We will release Mr. Bruton with thanks for his attendance today. He will understand that we have housekeeping to do. He will remember how it works here.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.17 p.m. and adjourned at 4.25 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Thursday, 15 December 2022.
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