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Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement debate -
Thursday, 15 Dec 2022

Architects of the Good Friday Agreement (Resumed): Mr. Gerry Adams

Apologies have been received from Senator Black. Today, we continue our meetings with the architects of the Good Friday Agreement project. We have met with a range of people involved in the peace process negotiations, both politicians and officials. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Gerry Adams. Mr. Adams is a former leader of Sinn Féin, a former Deputy for Louth and a former colleague of mine from the same constituency. He played a vital role in laying the groundwork for the peace process.

The note on parliamentary privilege is read to every witness. There are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. However, witnesses and participants who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts does, and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Witnesses are also asked to note that only evidence connected with the subject matter of the proceedings should be given. They should respect directions given by the Chair and the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should neither criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to that person or entity's good name.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirements that they must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in meetings.

I call Mr. Adams to make his opening statement.

Mr. Gerry Adams

Tá mé an-sásta a bheith leis an gcoiste inniu. Mar fhocal pearsanta, gabhaim comhghairdeas leis an gCathaoirleach agus a chlann fá choinne na hoibre a rinne a dheirfiúr Orlaith, agus Ciaran agus Kathleen, ar son sepsis agus Rory Óg. I thank the Chair, Deputy O’Dowd, and the committee for the opportunity to speak this afternoon. I use this opportunity to congratulate Deputy O'Dowd and his family on the work being done by his sister Orlaith, her husband Ciaran and their daughter Kathleen on sepsis. Their son Rory died of sepsis and since then they have fought a wonderful campaign and saved thousands of lives. Comhghairdeas le clann O'Dowd. An old friend of mine is being buried today - I should be at his funeral - Tommy Devereux from County Mayo, a staunch, long-time Irish republican. I dedicate my remarks to Ann, Orla, Oona and the Devereux clan. They were there when it was tough and were the backbone in County Mayo of Irish republicanism.

I do not think it is putting it too strongly to describe the Good Friday Agreement as the most important political agreement of our time in Ireland. When it was agreed, George Mitchell told me and Martin McGuinness that was the easy bit. He said that the hard bit was going to be implementing it, and he was right. The twists and turns from 10 April 1998 to now have been many.

Currently, the institutions are not in place due to the intransigence of the DUP, the machinations of successive Tory Governments and unionist efforts to force the European Union and Irish Government to scrap the protocol.

However, despite these difficulties, the success of the agreement is that there are many people alive today because of it. The Good Friday Agreement brought an end to almost three decades of war. It is seen by many internationally as an example of how deep-rooted conflicts can be resolved.

There are still those who seek to use violence or threaten the use of violence. They represent the past, as do the securocrats who manipulate the groups and individuals involved. All of them should end their actions and go away. The Good Friday Agreement is not a perfect agreement. It was, and is, a compromise between conflicting political positions after decades of violence and generations of division. It is also a fact that crucial elements of the Good Friday Agreement have still not been implemented by the British or, the committee should note, the Irish Government, including a bill of rights for the North, the civic forum and a charter of rights for the island of Ireland. The British Government still refuses to honour its Weston Park commitment to establish an inquiry into the murder of human rights lawyer, Pat Finucane. Likewise is the British Government’s refusal to fulfil its commitments and obligations to deal with the legacy of the past and the concerns of families bereaved during the conflict. It is obvious to everyone that this and recent Tory Governments have no real investment in the Good Friday Agreement. In fact, Tory Government policy in London is to emasculate the human rights elements of the agreement. Nonetheless, the new dispensation ushered in 25 years ago has replaced the years of violence which preceded it. It is important to remind ourselves that earlier initiatives, both political and military, on the part of the British Government, often supported by the Irish Government, failed to bring peace because they were not inclusive. They consciously failed to address the causes of the conflict. Rather than tackling exclusion, censorship, discrimination and repression, they entrenched these injustices and, in so doing, deepened and perpetuated conflict.

Previous efforts by the Irish and British Governments, from the Sunningdale Agreement in December 1973 through to the Anglo-Irish Agreement in 1985 and the Downing Street Declaration in 1993, were all about defending and protecting the status quo. They were about stabilising and pacifying, rather than removing the injustice that was driving political dissent and resistance. The policies of both Governments sought to criminalise and marginalise Irish republicans. The British state’s counterinsurgency strategy also relied heavily on state-sponsored collusion with unionist death squads, including in this State. None of this worked. On the contrary, it made the task of peacebuilding more difficult. It led to an entrenchment of conflict. Peacebuilding requires a different approach. Peace is not simply about ending conflict; it has to tackle the causes of conflict. Peace must therefore mean justice. The work of the late Fr. Des Wilson and Fr. Alec Reid was central to this endeavour. Sinn Féin also came to understand the importance of the international dimension. We began, along with our work on the island, to explore that area of work, most successfully in the USA and South Africa.

At that time, the British Government was resisting any scrutiny of what was happening in the North from the international community. The British Government insisted that these issues were an internal matter for the Government of the United Kingdom. The Irish Government had no consistent strategy to contest this. As Sinn Féin increased our electoral mandate, rather than addressing the core issues that were driving conflict, policies were developed to subvert and set aside the rights of republican voters. This, of course, was entirely counterproductive. A key part of our focus, therefore, was about turning the governments away from this disastrous, undemocratic and deeply flawed policy of refusing to talk to Sinn Féin. Sinn Féin argued in A Scenario for Peace in 1987, in our talks with the SDLP in 1988, in Towards a Lasting Peace in Ireland in 1992, in my joint statements with John Hume, and in the Hume-Adams agreement that inclusive dialogue was essential for building peace. John Hume was pilloried, vilified and condemned by governments, most of the political parties and by large sections of the media here for daring to talk to me. Thankfully, he refused to give in and succumb to that pressure. Imagine where would we all be today if these folks had had their way.

Sinn Féin had also begun the slow process of talking to others, occasionally publicly, but often privately and secretly. This was especially the case when dealing with the British and Irish Governments. The dialogue between John Hume and I was probably the clearest example of this developing alternative strategy. It generated enormous public attention when it came into the public view accidentally. Most of the attention was negative, as the establishment in Britain and Ireland pushed back against any new approach. Others were starting to listen and talk to Sinn Féin and to acknowledge the rights of our electorate. Taoisigh Charles Haughey, Albert Reynolds and Bertie Ahern authorised and facilitated a dialogue with the Sinn Féin leadership. Bill Clinton, both before and during his presidency, listened to Irish-American voices and broke with the pro-British agenda that had been followed by successive US administrations. Tony Blair, while leader of the Labour Party and when he was Prime Minister, also recognised the need to talk and to listen. These key leadership figures were critical to ending the failed approaches of the past and developing a new approach based on dialogue and inclusion.

The process also involved republicans taking significant initiatives and risks to create momentum in the process or to end crises. All of this took many years of hard work - too many years - but in the end, collectively, we succeeded in building a conflict resolution process that, for all of its imperfections, has become a model for peacebuilding. The negotiations, which commenced in September 1997 and led to the Good Friday Agreement, were based on this new and different approach grounded in inclusion, equality and democracy. As Jonathan Powell remarked in his contribution to this committee in June, "The crucial point about the Good Friday Agreement negotiations was making them inclusive". That was the key to its success. The Sinn Féin leadership went into the negotiations knowing we would not achieve all of our objectives, given our political strength at that time. However, we had red line issues. For example, we had already decided to compromise on the need for a single unity referendum by holding two referendums North and South on the same day. Our leadership decided that the policing and justice issues should be dealt with in a separate negotiation. The RUC had to go, and in our view, a commission could best deal with this issue. One of our key objectives was to get rid of the Government of Ireland Act. I am pleased that we succeeded. The issue of equality had to be embedded in the agreement. As a result of the collective efforts of all involved, measures were put in place to achieve this and the agreement correctly refers to "equality" 21 times, in sharp contrast to the Sunningdale Agreement, where it was not mentioned at all. Crucially, there is the issue of consent. Previously, this was interpreted as referring specifically to the consent of the unionist majority defined in Article 4 of the Sunningdale Agreement as “represented by the Unionist and Alliance delegations”. The Good Friday Agreement is clear: constitutional change requires the consent of "a" majority. That is the democratic position. The sensible goal for all democrats must be to persuade the largest number of people to vote yes. That is obvious and common sense.

Finally, it is important to understand that the Good Friday Agreement is not a settlement. It never was. It never pretended to be. It is an agreement to a journey without agreement on the destination. The promise of the agreement is for a new society in which all citizens are respected, where the failed policies of the past are addressed, and where justice, equality and democracy are the guiding principles. It also provides, for the first time, a peaceful democratic pathway to achieving Irish independence and unity. This is and was crucial at the time and central to the decades-long effort to provide an alternative to armed struggle as a means to advance these legitimate goals. From a Sinn Féin perspective, the efforts to reach that position involved prolonged engagements with John Hume, back-channel communications with successive British governments and Fianna Fáil-led administrations, ongoing outreach to Irish America and subsequently the White House, as well as ongoing attempts to outreach to elements of unionist and loyalist opinion who would talk to or communicate with us.

No Irish Government, to this day, has produced a strategy to build a new and inclusive Ireland and give effect to Irish unity. Now there is a mechanism to achieve this. The absence of Irish Government planning is indefensible and incredibly short-sighted. There is no excuse for this. What is needed is the full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement, including setting a date and preparing for the referendum on the future. This requires inclusive discussions about the future to ensure not only that citizens take informed decisions, but also that the new Ireland which emerges when the union ends is one in which everyone is valued and social and economic rights are upheld.

The Irish Government should establish a citizens' assembly, or a series of such assemblies, to discuss the process of constitutional change and the measures needed to build an all-Ireland economy, a truly national public health service, an education system and many more essential public services. This makes sense. Very few countries get a chance to begin anew. We in Ireland, North and South, have that chance. Most leaders would be excited by the prospect, and would embrace and welcome it. Most leaders with a vision for the future would carefully and diligently seize the opportunity but not here, not in this place. Political parties which have enjoyed being in power in this State since partition do not wish to give up that power. That is why our outgoing Taoiseach, Deputy Micheál Martin, refuses to establish a citizens' assembly to plan the future, or to plan for an inclusive, citizen-centred, rights-based society of equals. It is certainly Sinn Féin’s desire to encourage and help to create such a new departure for all the people of our island.

This is all about democracy. The people should decide. At a time when the debate on constitutional change is dominating most of our politics and opinion polls are being produced regularly, it makes no sense not to plan and not to prepare for unity referendums. The Irish Government has a responsibility and an obligation to plan for constitutional change. The Government and the rest of us need to be totally committed to upholding and promoting the rights of our unionist neighbours, including the rights of the Orange Order and other loyal institutions. The protections in the Good Friday Agreement are their protections also. This is their land. This is their home place. There needs to be a clear commitment by the rest of us to uphold their rights and to work with them to make this a better place for everyone. As Martin McGuinness said, “I am so confident in my Irishness that I have no desire to chip away at the Britishness of my neighbours”. Surely the new Ireland planned and built by all of the people of the island can accommodate and celebrate our differences and diversity. Irish unity, and the end of the awful union with England which was forced upon us, will profoundly transform the political landscape here. A new multicultural society, embracing and respecting all traditions, will emerge.

At the core of the progress we have already made is dialogue. That is the way forward also. Talking and listening to each other is the key to resolving conflict, problems and differences. Dialogue is key to planning an inclusive society. Yes, there will be many challenges but there will also be many opportunities. I look forward to the future with hope and optimism. Go raibh maith agat.

Go raibh míle maith agat. I want to personally thank Mr. Adams for his comments about my sister Orlaith, her husband Ciaran and their daughter Kathleen. It is deeply appreciated. For members who have come in since the start of the meeting, the rotation we have agreed is Sinn Féin, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, the SDLP, the Alliance Party, the Green Party, the Labour Party, Independents and Aontú. We have agreed already on 15-minute slots. Basically, the 15 minutes go to the group, which selects its speakers. Mr. Adams can answer in whatever way he is happy with. There is no issue with that.

Mr. Chris Hazzard

I commend Mr. Adams on his presentation. It was very constructive and useful. Today, like many other days when we have had these discussions, we think about the people who are not here. In the past we have thought about and discussed the roles of the likes of David Ervine, Mo Mowlam and the late John Hume. Today we are thinking about Martin McGuinness as well. I commend him on the role that he played alongside Mr. Adams and others.

I have a couple of short questions. I know others want to come in. Is it possible for Mr. Adams to identify a moment or moments when he thought the opportunity for a peace process existed? As he said in his commentary, nowadays our peace process is often held up as a template for Colombia, Sri Lanka and elsewhere in the world. The 1990s was a decade of huge international events, including the end of the Cold War, the collapse of the USSR, the end of apartheid, and the handshake between Arafat and Rabin on the White House lawn as part of what was happening in the Middle East. To what extent did the international context feed into the momentum for a peace process here in Ireland? Finally, Mr. Adams mentioned that one of the key objectives was to repeal the Government of Ireland Act. Can he outline why that was such an important objective? Go raibh maith agat.

Mr. Gerry Adams

I think it is important that Mr. Hazzard mentioned those who have passed who were involved in building the process and particularly in reaching the agreement. He asked if there was a moment when I saw that peace was possible. As far back as 1976 or 1977, when I was in Long Kesh, I wrote a small pamphlet called Peace in Ireland and started to explore the meaning of the word "peace". Over the years, we explored that and eventually it came down to a political proposition that we had to try to develop an alternative to the violence. We also had to develop protocols which made people feel valued and cherished and feel that they had an ownership of what was going on. As the years went on, and we got out teeth into that, the republican position which had been basically one of resistance became one of change. We started to engage publicly with the local hierarchy of the Catholic Church and to debate issues. When that started to get traction with ordinary people, I formed the firm opinion that peace was possible and the conflict could be brought to an end. It took an awful long time. When I was writing about this at one time, I was shocked to realise that it took ten, 12 or 15 years even to get a meeting. In the meantime there were all the atrocities, ongoing difficulties in the prisons, terrible disasters on the streets and so on.

The significant breakthrough was first of all with Fr. Des Wilson and Fr. Alec Reid, as I have acknowledged, and then the meeting with John Hume. He was up for the proposition of self-determination. That was what the whole thing boiled down to. Regardless of what we wanted about a real republic or ending the union or partition, the proposition was that the people should have their say and determine their future. We realised that whatever came after that was up to the people to figure out and agree to.

I suppose that was the big breakthrough moment.

We also had a good relationship with the African National Congress, ANC, and when we eventually got to meet them it was a great confidence boost. When we met Madiba and the other leaders, we realised we had been following more or less the same strategy as them in what we had been trying to do here, in our own way. It was good for us to hear that. Irish America was crucial. Niall O'Dowd was crucial. He was a journalist and publisher and was watching from afar. He came to meet me and a few others, and then he went back and started to talk to influential people. He said that there was potential, and that something was happening which we could get behind. He used the phrase, "we can think outside the box". All these people gave confidence at different times that peace was possible.

Sometimes the toughest negotiation is with your own side. There were difficulties in trying to persuade people we should be engaging with the unionists, the British or even the Irish Government when they were using such offensive and insulting language and were involved in policies that were leading to the deaths of our neighbours, party members and friends. Notwithstanding those difficulties, it was rewarding as time went on that the republican base, or what became the Sinn Féin electorate, was figuring these things out. There was a view that peace was possible due to all these factors. I probably left a number of factors out. I do not want to talk for too long.

Struggle is ongoing. It is perpetual. Building a society is perpetual. We will never reach a point where we say it is done and we can go home. It must be continuously worked at, as does peace. It must be worked at all the time. I come from a working-class community. I am proud of my working-class republican roots and of that community, but the members of that community must have a sense of ownership, of belonging and of being treated properly. Fr. Reid always used to say that people must be treated properly. If they are treated properly, they will respond positively.

Was there a moment when we knew the Good Friday Agreement would click? Not really. Perhaps there was such a moment two days before, when Senator Mitchell said to Martin McGuinness and me that David Trimble had to make up his mind. He said this to us privately. I commend Mr. Trimble on his role and his efforts. Senator Mitchell said that Mr. Trimble had thought Sinn Féin would walk out but he was now realising that it would not, so he had to decide what he would do.

The Government of Ireland Act used to be the Act under which the British claimed sovereignty over all of this island - over all matters, places and things. That was changed as a result of the treaty and subsequent developments but they still retained ownership and sovereignty of the North. I was influenced by the writing of Desmond Greaves, who focused on this. He was the biographer of James Connolly and Liam Mellows and heavily involved in the Connolly Association. He majored on the fact that we had to end the claim the Brits had and return the decision to the people of the island. It was central for me to get that right written off. There was no point changing whatever was changed on the constitutional issue if the Brits still had it written large. Obviously the Brits still claim sovereignty, and obviously that has to be stopped, but it is now conditional. It is quite unique. They do not claim absolute sovereignty, but simply say they are there for as long as the people decide they want them to stay.

We found it hard to get the Irish Government to take that on board. I think Bertie Ahern tried and did not get very far. I remember taking it up personally with Mo Mowlam first and then with Tony Blair. Martin McGuinness and I used to meet him quite often and press him to take it out in order to make it clear to the people on the island of Ireland that we had self-determination and that the British were setting aside their past claims for this conditional affirmation that they would only stay as long as the people decided would be the case.

I commend Mr. Adams on his presentation and on his decades of work to achieve peace. It is a peace that has lasted and brought untold fortune to Irish people and British people alike. We remember our friend and comrade Martin McGuinness who walked that journey with Mr. Adams. I will start with a question. Mr. Adams included a quote from Martin McGuinness in his presentation, “I am so confident in my Irishness that I have no desire to chip away at the Britishness of my neighbours”. Mr. Adams also said, with regard to unionists:

The protections in the Good Friday Agreement are their protections also. This is their land. This is their home place.

Does Mr. Adams think the unionist people are hearing what nationalists are saying to them about guaranteeing their cultural and identity rights in a new united Ireland? The point is often made that civic unionism is often far ahead of political unionism in having conversations about the future of this country. Does Mr. Adams agree with that?

Mr. Gerry Adams

Civic unionism is reflecting. Some of them are changing. Some of them are no longer unionist. We can look at the Ireland's Future event that people from northern Protestant backgrounds attended. I was at an event in Derry last week organised by the Sinn Féin commission on the future of Ireland and one young woman spoke eloquently. She told us that both her parents voted unionist - that was her background - but she had moved, on the basis of the need for rights, to the position that the people should determine the future. Those changes are happening, but it is impossible to quantify them.

I probably talk to more unionists than most people, with the possible exception of the Sinn Féin Northern representatives. There is definitely a move but unionist political leadership has decided not to engage. A new organisation to keep the union was launched recently. That is a welcome development. Apart from anything else, it shows unionists formally engaging in debate and gives those of us who encounter it another opportunity to listen and talk to them.

We must be a little hard chaw about some of this. The orange is here. It is here to stay. You may think whatever you want about it, but this marching tradition they have is part of their tradition of their national flag. The march in Rossnowlagh goes off without any issue. We just need to factor in that the marching order is important for a section of people. The orange, its institutions and the other loyal institutions need to be assured. Some of them probably fear they will suppressed and prevented from doing what they do. Sectarianism is one of the huge unresolved issues on this island and must be tackled.

It served a purpose for the elites because it divided people. We have to make sure it does not serve any purpose in the future. In particular, I come back again to the idea of good neighbourliness. There has been this awful family dispute where neighbours were killing neighbours and people were severely traumatised and bereaved as a result. There needs to be a healing process. There needs to be an effort. Irish Ministers should be in the North every day. They would be welcome. They should be going about their business. They should be working and listening. There has been some great work done by successive Presidents here in opening up Áras an Uachtaráin to people from that tradition. All that is needed, as well as engagement with the political leaders. As I have said, they have decided tactically not to engage at this stage, but engage they will at some point. What we have to do is make it a very welcoming, warm and reassuring engagement for them.

I welcome Mr. Adams. In recognition of what some of the other speakers have said, we cannot but think of Martin McGuinness today as well. We certainly would love to have had him alongside Mr. Adams today to hear his view on how things have evolved over the past almost 25 years. We could argue the ins and outs of elements of his statement. Some of it I will agree with and some I will not. I want to keep to the theme, which is reflecting on the Good Friday Agreement, what was achieved and how it was achieved, and if mistakes were made along the way, what we can learn from what took place.

With that in mind, I want to draw Mr. Adams back to those years post agreement. It took seven years to effect decommissioning. Will he give us a description of what that process was like? Would he agree that it caused an awful lot of upset in unionist circles, and an awful lot of difficulties for David Trimble and his party? Would Mr. Adams also agree that it in some way damaged his standing as party leader and, moreover, damaged his party electorally in Northern Ireland? On reflection, does he have any regrets about it taking seven years, or was that beyond his control?

Mr. Gerry Adams

First of all, I do not think that was the issue that damaged David Trimble. What damaged David Trimble was the unwillingness of sections of his party to engage with the process, which he had bravely and courageously decided to go for. What he had done, and this was written about at the time, if not at the time of the Good Friday Agreement then the years close behind it, and he said it himself, was that he realised there had to be change. The demographics were changing, the nationalist position was becoming stronger and it could not continue as before. They had to shape out a new dispensation. Others would not accept that. When you are reared on, "not an inch," "no surrender," "what we have, we hold," and "we are the people," that is a very hard position to come to and negotiate from. That is what David Trimble was faced with. Of course, it would have been better if all the arms had been gotten rid of. Of course that would have been better. Would it have been better if there had been no war? Of course. All of these things are true. However, this was used, and if it had not been that issue, some other issue would have been used.

It needs to be remembered that while this matter of the republican army, the IRA, and its weapons is the focus here, it took a long time to get demilitarisation done. It took a long time to get Brits off the street and off people's necks. There are unionist paramilitary groups still in place. The IRA has gone. There are still loyalist paramilitary groups in place in the North. They are still carrying out actions. There was despicable stuff there recently about loan sharking, and they are heavily involved in the drug trade and all that craic.

It would have been better had all these issues been dealt with expeditiously. All I can say is that we could do it no better than we were able to do it. We made our position clear, that there needed to be a peace process, that there needed to be the type of changes that were part of the Good Friday Agreement, and so on. We had no truck with it. We wanted all of these organisations to disappear. We did the best we could in the course of very difficult and challenging times. Thankfully, it worked.

As I said earlier, getting to the Good Friday Agreement took an awfully long time and I am surprised about how long it took. It is still not fully implemented now, 25 years later. The Irish Government signed up for a charter of rights and we still do not have one a quarter of a century later. Other measures that the Government here signed up to have not been put in place. I do not want to repeat myself, but whatever it was possible to do to resolve the issue presented by arms in republican hands was dealt with as expeditiously, as quickly, as efficiently and as speedily as it could have been done.

In the same context, would Mr. Adams agree that seven years for decommissioning was quite a long period of time? On reflection, does he feel that it had any impact on the setting up of the institutions, or the failure to do so?

Mr. Gerry Adams

I think I have already answered that in terms of my position on how long it took. Here is the rub, and this is my big thing, but I think I can prove it. The plan of the Irish Government, the British Government, and indeed the Ulster Unionist Party and the SDLP leadership, was that the SDLP and the Ulster Unionist Party would go into government. They would govern the place. That was their plan. The agreement would not have been as deep and penetrating in terms of all the issues that needed to be dealt with. That did not happen. Once the thread was pulled, it became obvious there were some people who just did not want to share power. That was David Trimble's problem. He had made the courageous leap.

Remember, we negotiated the Good Friday Agreement and not one unionist leader, outside of those I bumped into in the men's room, said a word to me or to any of the Sinn Féin delegation, nor did they engage with the Sinn Féin delegation or exchange papers with them. Not one of them. The loyalists, on the other hand, were very upfront. The first time we met, they stuck out their hands and shook hands. I think it was because of their working-class backgrounds and so on. They were not caught up in the pretentiousness that some people have, what used to be called big house unionism. There were all of those difficulties in it. The committee members might recall, having seen it on television, that when I nominated Martin McGuinness as Minister for Education, cries of horror came from the unionist bench. Yet Martin McGuinness was duly elected officially, the same as the Senator or anybody else.

What was a huge difficulty, and I appreciate it is mighty difficult, and even yet Jeffrey Donaldson will face this challenge in the time ahead, is to try to bring those elements of unionism that will not face up to the reality that change is happening and is ongoing and we can all live together. We disagree with each other and we do what we do in this institution, which is to fight and argue and debate, but that is where it stays. It is oral or it is verbal. It can be as passionate as people want, it can be as determined as people want, or it can be as awkward as people feel, but they will not come to terms with this. I think they will. That is my view. We just have to be persistent, strategic, stay united and close down all the negative options so that people see positive options. That has been accelerated, incidentally, by Brexit and other developments since then, but there is a huge challenge for unionist leaders to face up to this. Jeffrey Donaldson knows that, by the way. He knows what the future is. His challenge is, as a Mourne man and someone who says he has been here for hundreds of years and will never leave, is to make this a better place for everyone.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and like other colleagues I welcome Mr. Adams back to the Oireachtas. In his opening remarks he referred to the Sunningdale Agreement of December 1973, the Anglo-Irish Agreement of 1985 and the Downing Street Declaration, and we might recall that the Downing Street Declaration was signed on this day 29 years ago between the late Mr. Albert Reynolds and Mr. John Major. He stated that those agreements were about defending and protecting the status quo. I would have thought that the Downing Street Declaration was the first time the British Government affirmed the right of the people of Ireland to self-determination. It also referred strongly to the principle of consent and that the people of the island of Ireland had exclusive rights to solve those issues. I thought that was a stepping stone for the Good Friday Agreement subsequently, so particularly the statement where the British side had agreed they had no long-term selfish strategic interest in this country was an important sentence and part of the Downing Street Declaration.

With regard to time constraints, Mr. Adams mentioned about democracy working and spoke on his view of a citizens' assembly on the future constitutional configuration on this island. He also mentioned a series of such assemblies. I assume he has in mind dialogue on sectoral issues, be they education, inequality, economics, European policy, social protection, climate issues or whatever. Is Mr. Adams thinking of having specialist assemblies with people with specialist knowledge to meet in regard to specific issues? Some work is under way in that respect at academic level in various institutes and third level colleges that is funded by the Government.

Mr. Adams quite rightly stated that we need to have the Good Friday Agreement fully implemented. One of the huge issues or legacy issues that is not being dealt with and time is going on is families never getting the truth about the loss of their loved ones. I presume Mr Adams would agree, as all political opinion has, in outright opposition to the British Government's recent proposals in regard to dealing with legacy issues, because in effect those proposals will give an amnesty to murderers, whether those murderers were from British state forces or from paramilitary organisations, and they could in effect grant themselves an amnesty in relation to the most heinous crimes. That is not acceptable to the Irish people, and those proposals at the moment are flying absolutely in the face of the progress we need to make on so many issues that are still outstanding from the Good Friday Agreement and that are especially important for so many individuals and families as time goes by.

Mr. Gerry Adams

Go raibh maith agat. I used the term a series of such assemblies to leave it open and not to be prescriptive. The Deputy knows and we all know that citizens' assemblies have played a very crucial role in some of the big changes that have been made here on rights issues in the past decade or so. I attended many of those, along with Martin McGuinness, and made those citizens' assemblies. There are two others coming up soon on other issues, but for the Irish Government to refuse to refuse to plan for the future beggars belief. That notion of having almost dedicated assemblies on sectoral issues or just leaving that open is probably a way to go forward. They would look at the economy, public health services and other issues.

The main thing is that nobody wants, and we certainly do not want, a referendum just declared out of the blue. We want a process of preparation for it, of informing people, of debate, of discussion, of ownership, getting the expertise, drawing upon experiences, of using the European Union protocols, drawing upon our friends across the globe and particularly in the USA. It is just a no-brainer that there should be a citizens' assembly, and the challenge will now be for Deputy Leo Varadkar - Deputy Micheál Martin has missed his chance - as a new Taoiseach to consider this issue.

The Deputy is of course right about the legacy issues, but what is the Government doing about it? The Government is the co-equal guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement. It is our agreement. The British have torn it up, so what do we do? Do we appeal to our friends across international fora? Do we use our diplomatic consular services to raise these questions? No, we do not. We make public statements that are probably not even heard in Downing Street as opposed to using the political strengths we have and our right as a Government and as co-equal guarantor of this agreement to make sure it is implemented fully. If Sinn Féin had signed up for the Downing Street Declaration, there would have been no Good Friday Agreement.

I said it was an important stepping stone to the Good Friday Agreement.

Mr. Gerry Adams

First, I do not think Albert Reynolds gets the credit he deserves for the positions he took up. I said this to him personally and we said it publicly, and he acknowledged it, because, if Deputy Smith recalls, he set up a process where the British had to clarify elements of the Downing Street Declaration and Sinn Féin held a special conference which became known as the Letterkenny conference where we looked at some of the extra information that we received. You could, if you wished, look at all of these steps along the way and say these were steps towards this agreement. They are steps towards an agreement or towards wherever we happen to be at this time in the absence of a strategy. These are things the Government stumbled into or was forced to take up. The Government did its best and many of the taoisigh I met were very well-intentioned. Just because a British minister says he has no selfish strategic interest does not mean he has no strategic interest. Peter Brooke was the first one and this was one of my first instances with Mr. John Hume, where Mr. Brooke said they had no selfish strategic interest, but he did not say they had no strategic interest. I think all of that is past and they now clearly are being moved to a position they have been moved to due to the collective efforts of everyone involved.

Does Mr. Adams recall - I do not know myself-----

We are running out of time here.

Just two minutes-----

It is not a problem. I will add time to other people.

Does Mr. Adams recall if the British Government had previously put in any agreement with the Irish Government that it was up to the Irish people to decide their own affairs? I think that was the first time, in 1993.

Mr. Gerry Adams

The Deputy could be right and we ended up with a qualified position having got clarification, and it helped to move the peace process forward, but my main point, if I can put it like this, is that the London Government is a unionist government. The London Government is about holding the union.

My main point is that the London government is a unionist government. The London government is about upholding the union. They might not have any great personal commitment to, or any love for, it but that is its position. Is the Irish Government a pro end-of-union Government? Is it a pro-unity Government? Is the Irish Government in any way working towards a strategy to bring about that very legitimate objective? I am sure all of us in this committee and all of the Members in this Dáil will agree that we would all be better off if we were all living together on the one island, self-governing ourselves in whatever way the people wanted. We would be friends of the British. I do not hate the British. We could all be friends together and have wonderful relationships between these islands but that will only happen when an Irish Government decides that is, as the Constitution points out, a policy objective and it then starts to develop strategies and other approaches to bring it about.

The big challenge at the moment is outreach to unionism. For me as a Belfast person living with unionist neighbours, that is the big challenge, as it is for all of our colleagues here. We now have the position, and we should not fall into the mistake of saying that the Downing Street Declaration was better than this. The fact is we now have a position that if a majority of people decide that the union should end, the union will end. Do we think that is a good thing? Does our Constitution put that in as an imperative or an obligation on a government? Let us get our act together, folks. Let us try to put all these other differences we have to one side and try to figure out the best way, the peaceful, democratic way of doing it, to unite the country and the people. We are now back to where Tone was; it is about bringing Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter together. That is what we are back to, all these 200 hundred years later.

It is very important to recognise the commitment that Mr. Bertie Ahern gave as leader of the Government at the time to amend Articles 2 and 3 of our Constitution to maintain the Good Friday Agreement. We amended those articles to enable this country to have a provision to have an united Ireland when we would have agreement, both North and South, in referenda, with the consent of the people as envisaged in the Downing Street Declaration. Putting that mechanism in place was very important was surely a statement of intent by Irish governments that we wanted to work towards a united Ireland. We did not have that mechanism previously, if the consent was there, both North and South. I am not suggesting it was but I recall very well going back to 1998 as a Member of the Oireachtas, we were not knocked down on the street by political parties campaigning for the Good Friday Agreement to be endorsed by the people. There were very few of us out on the streets campaigning and civic society was not but, thankfully, it was overwhelmingly endorsed with 94.2% of the people here and 72% in Northern Ireland. The political remit we all have is to implement that agreement.

Mr. Gerry Adams

I agree, if I can respond briefly.

Of course, it is a very important debate so if everybody agrees, we will continue.

Mr. Gerry Adams

I agree it was important. When the agreement was over, the Taoiseach was at pains to try to ensure that Sinn Féin would support the removal of Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution because he was quite concerned that it might not go through. I know he was the master negotiator and so on but-----

He had to do some work within our own political party at the time

Mr. Gerry Adams

I appreciate that. I remember all of that well. I agree with the Deputy that instead of having this rhetorical piece in the Constitution, which never mattered to me as a person living in west Belfast, there was now a practical means of bringing about the constitutional aim of unity but also there would be an Irish Government presence in the North and that strands 1, 2 and 3 would be interconnected. Mr. John Hume used the phrase, "there could be no internal settlement", which meant that there could be no Six Counties settlement; it had to be national. I agree that it was an important thing for the Taoiseach to do. He did that because he understood the merit and necessity of dialogue and authorised secret discussions between our team and a team appointed by him. Mr. Martin Mansergh played a very crucial role in that process. Mr. Dermot Ahern was also part of it. There was another man whose name escapes me now. I think he has died since but he was on the Fianna Fáil ard comhairle at the time. He was a very nice man from County Meath. I cannot remember his name. The two teams worked their way through all of this for ages and came up with the notion that on the one day, there would be referenda to give the people their say about the future. There was that practical outworking so, as I have said a few times, that was arguably an essential commitment from the then Taoiseach at that time.

That was very important. That is the sort of discussion we need, to articulate all these different issues. That is what the committee is here for. I will allow Senator Emer Currie to go next.

I want nothing more than reconciliation on our island, orange and green, but also between different shades of green. When I read Mr. Adams's submission, I found aspects of it to be an outstanding work of revisionism and not reconciliation. To describe the actions of the IRA between 1972 and 1988 as some sort of parallel route to peace and justice is wild. In the document, the he says that it is all about democracy and that the people should decide. Whatever his document seems to suggest, the people of Ireland, year after year, time after time, in those years, rejected the IRA. It is important to say that this is his version of history but, for others, it is not. In my view, it is not a true reflection of our history. Mr. Adams has spoken about legacy and we are very much against the British government's proposals on legacy. I assume from what he said that he believes that when it comes to the British state and the wrongdoings of the security agencies that there are serious questions to be asked of the senior people in the British state and the security agencies. Does he agree that those people need to be held to account?

Mr. Gerry Adams

Of course. Let us agree to disagree about-----

No, just on that. What about the illegal organisations? Do the victims not deserve answers from the people high up in the illegal organisations? Should the IRA chiefs of staff, the Northern commanders and the quartermasters, not be held to account as well? Should they not answer questions?

Mr. Gerry Adams

The point I was going to make is that we can agree to disagree about the history. I have given my view. The Senator has a different view and that is fair enough. I was simply describing the fact that there were all of these events, developments and so on. If the Senator knows better, that is fair enough or if she simply disagrees, that is also okay.

A long time ago Sinn Féin put forward a proposition for a truth recovery process and that would have held everyone to account from the armed groups on the British, unionist and republican sides to everyone else in between. I have worked closely with victims' families for a long time. We should not generalise about the issue of victims. Victims come at this in different ways. Some want those who caused them to be bereaved or injured them held accountable in court; others do not. Some are the best peacemakers I have ever come across. Some have a view that they are getting on with their lives. The general brief answer to the Senator's question is that everyone has the right to truth and anybody who knows the truth they can give to those people should do so, whatever their background or history. A process should be in place.

There is no point in any of us, particularly those in government, bemoaning the British Government. The British Government has torn up these commitments. That is what it has done. What is our Government doing about that? What is our Government doing to make the British Government accountable in front of international fora, dealing with legacy issues, issues of victims and bereavement and so on? There is an answer to this. At the moment there is no mechanism for resolving these issues - none - despite numerous agreements. I was there for numerous agreements and they have all been torn up one after the other. The answer to the question of why that is so is that British agents and troops are still doing things in other parts of the world that they used to do in our part of the world. British Governments will not allow themselves to put those people out to dry no matter what. Perhaps Tony Blair was the big exception when he set up the Bloody Sunday inquiry.

I was shot. My house was bombed.

Mr. Gerry Adams

I know. I understand that. I do not see myself as a victim, but I am making the general point that there is no mechanism for resolving these issues. What is our Government doing about it?

I will ask again to be sure. Does Mr. Adams believe that those in command and control of the IRA and other militias should answer for their conduct, account to victims and have questions to answer? It is a yes-no answer.

Mr. Gerry Adams

I have already said this on the public record. The IRA is gone but everybody who has the ability to give answers to victims should do so. A mechanism needs to be put in place to allow that to happen. There is an agreement for a mechanism that the British Government has torn up. What is the Government doing?

What does Mr. Adams mean by "ability"? Does that mean that they are alive and able or that they have permission to?

Mr. Gerry Adams

Who do they need permission from? I have helped victims and I did not look for permission from anyone. I got myself in hot water in this institution a couple of times for trying to help victims.

Which victims?

Mr. Gerry Adams

I do not want to get into the detail.

Were they cross-commmunity victims?

Mr. Gerry Adams

I do not know what the Senator means by the term "cross-community victims".

Were they victims of all sides?

Mr. Gerry Adams

Yes, how can you differentiate between one victim and another?

I agree that victims are victims but it is important that when we deal with victims, we are conscious that they are across all communities and that we do not only advocate for one group, such as republicans, nationalists or loyalists. We must advocate for all victims.

Mr. Gerry Adams

I agree with the Senator on that.

Is Mr. Adams aware that he does not address the hurt that was caused during the Troubles in his submission?

Mr. Gerry Adams

If the committee wants to bring me back for another hearing on------

We have another six minutes. We have loads of time.

Mr. Gerry Adams

Only if the Senator does not keep interrupting me. I was asked to address the Good Friday Agreement-----

I apologise. I am interrupting. The Good Friday Agreement states-----

To be helpful to everyone, it was a fair question and if Mr. Adams is prepared to answer it, that is fair enough. I appreciate the point he is making, that this issue should be discussed at a different time. We must respect the invitation that Mr. Adams replied to, which was to discuss how the Good Friday Agreement came about, but in fairness to the Senator-----

The Good Friday Agreement states that we must acknowledge and address suffering. It is part of the agreement. If it is part of the Good Friday Agreement that we acknowledge and address suffering, why there is nothing in Mr. Adams's submission about the hurt during the Troubles?

Mr. Gerry Adams

Okay. The Senator may have a point. I am not trying to dodge the issue. I have addressed this issue publicly in a number of keynote addresses, including in the Dáil Chamber. It is not that I am oblivious to the hurt. I am very conscious of it and I particularly am very conscious of actions carried out by the IRA. I am conscious of all of that. I like to think that the real work is to ensure that conflict never happens again. We cannot rework the past but we can certainly take responsibility for the future and Sinn Féin has signed up on a number of occasions for mechanisms to deal with the issue the Senator is dealing with. I have no desire to dodge the issue.

I still live in west Belfast. If I walk the length of the Falls Road, every hundred yards is a place where someone was killed by the various combatants. When my sister was six months' pregnant, her husband, who was a young IRA volunteer, was shot to death. I am conscious. I am from Ballymurphy. I lived where the Ballymurphy massacre happened and I am conscious of things the IRA did, which the IRA should not have done. I have also made that clear.

The point I was making regarding the Senator's response is that the committee is dealing with the putting together of the Good Friday Agreement. In the course of my remarks I said two or three times that its biggest achievement, despite its imperfections, is that there are thousands of people alive today that would be dead without it. That is the single biggest achievement.

In his document, Mr. Adams talks about the work of others that made the work of peacebuilding more difficult. There is no acknowledgement that the IRA also made it difficult. It was responsible for more than 50% of the deaths. It is important we talk about these issues because they are a part of reconciliation.

Mr. Gerry Adams

I agree with that as well. My key point in all this is that the way we resolve problems and get to understand each another's positions is by doing what we are doing, namely talking, dialogue and proactive listening. That is how we can sort out all these issues.

I would say that talking to victims and giving them the answers they want, and which they have sought for many years. The people who have those answers, Mr. Adams, should give them to those families of their loved ones.

I will make one point. Jean McConville, Tom Oliver and Captain Robert Nairac were all murdered in my own county. I want to make this point. I am a republican and I am a nationalist. The difference is that I always believed that human life was sacred and that the political system was the system to work in. That is my point. The bodies of the disappeared remain today in unmarked graves. I appreciate and acknowledge that, I think, 16 of them have been located. However, there are still families awaiting closure. If we are talking about peace and reaching an outcome that gives closure to these families, I wonder if there is anything additional we can all do to make that possible.

Mr. Gerry Adams

I work with the commission.

I accept that.

Mr. Gerry Adams

I meet the commission regularly. I have travelled to the places where some of these unfortunate folks have been executed, shot to death, and buried. It should never have happened. There are ongoing efforts. Bad weather and so on has thwarted it. What we can do is repeat once again that anybody with even the most tenuous bit of information should come forward. They might not think it is important but it is very important to the commission. We will hopefully see the return of those remains that have still not been found. That is certainly my resolve. The commission has said it has got the full co-operation of-----

I am just making the point from my perspective. What I feel will bring closure are any additional steps all of us can make. I think that is a fair point.

Mr. Gerry Adams

There is nothing stopping the Deputy.

The point I was going to make is that these were human beings who were buried. Somebody has to know. You could never forget that. That is my personal view. I am just saying that as an honest point. That is really the difference. The difference is that I think that is never acceptable.

Some of us are wearing our pins today for the families of the disappeared and we hope that they are not long to be returned.

Ms Claire Hanna

It has been a really useful series of engagements we have had, and I want to pick up on some of the other themes that members have addressed. I want to pick up on Mr. Adams's own understanding and journey on the issue of consent. In his opening statement he suggests that he, and the organisations he was involved with rejected Sunningdale because of issues around language and a lack of strength on consent. However, he quoted a phrase in the accompanying communique that referenced the Faulkner and the Alliance view on consent. He did not quote the sections that represented the explicit view of the SDLP on consent, nor that of the Irish and British Governments. There was a border poll in 1973 and while we can all agree it was a bit of a stunt, it is accepted by most people that the principle of consent was implicitly and explicitly already on the table. Mr. Adams and I can both agree that partition was and is a tragedy. However, is it not the truth that it was in fact his organisation that did not accept the principle of consent in 1973?

Mr. Gerry Adams

We have to differentiate between what was a veto and what is now clearly an issue of consent. All of the people have to consent. It is now a majority who will decide on the future. She also referred to the organisations that I represent. I represent Sinn Féin. I do not know what other organisations she has in mind.

Ms Claire Hanna

Sinn Féin's understanding was explicit in that document and the concept of the unity referendum was already in the political system. Many people have lost sleep over the years about the missing years. It was 15 years from Sunningdale to Hume-Adams and another ten years to the Good Friday Agreement. I do not know how he accounts for those years and opportunities. He is saying that the principle of consent is the reason he could not support Sunningdale. We had a further two plus decades of bloodshed. Is it not a fair contention that it was his failure to understand or accept the principle of consent that was in fact the block?

Mr. Gerry Adams

I have already answered that. What was referred to euphemistically at that time as consent, was actually a veto. Second, there was much more-----

Ms Claire Hanna

It is fine, if that is how he accounts for those missing years. However, it is clear in the documents, and it is clear by the running of unity referendums that it was not true. I apologise for interrupting.

Mr. Gerry Adams

We will go back to this need to agree to disagree on history. What probably makes history so tantalisingly interesting is that there can be so many handles on it. The Sinn Féin electorate was totally and absolutely disenfranchised. There was a system of political vetting run by the British Government in the North. It was supported by elements of the SDLP and the Irish Government. There was a refusal to uphold the rights of those in the-----

There is interference somewhere.

Ms Claire Hanna

Somebody needs to switch off their microphone. However, I will use it as an opportunity to pick up particularly on my questions and the issues in Mr. Adams/s own.

Mr. Gerry Adams

No, let me finish. I am just asking Carmel to-----

It is not Carmel, it is Claire. It is Ms Claire Hanna. I am sorry. I did not introduce her.

Mr. Gerry Adams

Gabh mo leithscéal.

Ms Claire Hanna

That is absolutely fine. I have been called much worse. I just wanted to pick up again on-----

I am sorry Ms Hanna. I think Mr. Adams wanted to say something. I am trying to be fair to everybody.

Mr. Gerry Adams

Success has many parents. Let us avoid this 25th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement being a victory lap for anybody. I just gave the Sinn Féin perspective. Ms Hanna zeroed in quite legitimately - she does not need me to tell her that - on the issue of consent versus a veto. There was much more involved than that. I was going to give some examples of the discrimination, the disenfranchisement and the full-frontal attacks, including on our members.

Ms Claire Hanna

Respectfully, I am entirely aware of the discrimination and systemic abuse of people, and particularly of nationalists and Catholics. I am zoning in, as Mr. Adams says, on the explicit reasoning that he proactively gave in his own statement for rejecting the Sunningdale Agreement. I and many others believe it already laid the groundwork and explicitly provided for both power-sharing and consent. If we are talking about consent-----

Mr. Gerry Adams

Ms Hanna misses the point that-----

Ms Claire Hanna

Respectfully I asked him about consent, and I completely understand and respect his perspective on it.

He wanted to give me the wider contextual reasons for the conflict. In his statement he implied he did not support Sunningdale because it did not have the word equality and the consent principles were not strong enough. I think we have established that they were but on the issue of consent and future constitutional change there is a narrative that it was a failure of Good Friday negotiators not to more explicitly put down the grounds for calling a border poll, for example, in that document. Is that a regret Mr. Adams has that the criteria for constitutional change were not more explicitly explained in the document and is that a reason why he did not endorse and campaign for the Good Friday Agreement ahead of the referendum?

Mr. Gerry Adams

First, we did endorse and I did campaign for the Good Friday Agreement. Sinn Féin held a special Ard-Fheis and our special Ard-Fheis voted to support the Good Friday Agreement. That is a matter of historical record. My criticism of the Downing Street Declaration was not just around the issue of veto versus consent but was also the fact that equality was not mentioned at all, at all. Regarding the calling of a referendum, we should not even concede to a British Secretary of State that it would be his or her right to call a referendum. The fact is a British Government will take that decision when an Irish Government asks them to. Why would a British Government even be bothered thinking about a referendum when the Irish Government is making clear that it does not want a referendum? That is against the wishes of the folks Ms Hanna represents as well as those who seek change-----

Ms Claire Hanna

Was it a failure to not explicitly provide for that in the Good Friday Agreement or was it a product of the environment and the wide range of issues that were being negotiated at that time?

Mr. Gerry Adams

There were a number of witnesses and there are imperfections and I said in my opening remarks that it is not a perfect agreement. What it does do and I think we can both agree on this is that where a mechanism did not exist previously, where the two Governments had not signed up previously, there is now such a mechanism. What we argue for, and I know that Ms Hanna's party leader and she is arguing for, is for these issues to be discussed and debated and then for a referendum to be called because obviously we want the referendum that will agree to end the union and that is best accomplished. We do not want a repeat of the Brexit debacle. We want-----

Ms Claire Hanna

Of course.

Mr. Gerry Adams

-----to do this properly. All of us can poke over the ashes of history and have our own handle on it. There is a very legitimate Social Democratic and Labour Party, SDLP, view of both the past but what there is at the moment is a broad agreement that we all want to see the full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. That includes the referendum on unity and we are all of the one mind that the Irish Government should prepare and plan for that.

Ms Claire Hanna

I thank Mr. Adams for that there is loads to discuss on that issue that I will pick up on if time allows. I wanted to raise further the issue of legacy including UK Government proposals which this committee has engaged on extensively and which I know Mr. Adams's party opposes as well. Can he outline the core differences between the current UK Government proposals and the 2005 Northern Ireland (Offences) Bill which Mr. Adams's party did support?

Mr. Gerry Adams

My party did not support that.

Ms Claire Hanna

It did.

Mr. Gerry Adams

No, it did not. There were discussions between officials from Sinn Féin and officials from the British Government and I personally made it clear that we would not support that position. I made it very, very clear.

Ms Claire Hanna

I think this was discussed fairly extensively, including in the media, when the UK Government proposals were published in March of two years ago and there were media interventions. That Bill was published and 50 days later Mr. Adams's party formally disassociated itself but it went through at least provisional committee stages without that being the case. To be fair I accept that Mr. Adams's party and we have all worked collectively, including his party colleagues on this committee, to oppose the UK Government's formal proposals. We all agree that they are rotten and Mr. Adams has spoken in the past and today about the need for credible processes on truth and accountability and I agree. Can Mr. Adams give some specific insights on what that would mean from a republican perspective? I suppose what I mean specifically is how he would see answers and information being made available to victims of the IRA, particularly if that organisation may or may not exist. We are all in agreement that the UK Government is trying to suppress truth and accountability. I hope Mr. Adams can show and demonstrate with specifics today that the republican movement would live up instead to the request it is making of others about truth and accountability, ideally with specifics of what that process would mean for victims of the IRA.

Mr. Gerry Adams

The Stormont House Agreement agreed a mechanism where these matters would be resolved. It was different from what we wanted which was a truth recovery process that was internationally organised. Our folks signed up for that in good faith and that is what we need to see in place. With whatever influence I may have I would endeavour that literally anybody who could contribute to that in any way would do so.

Ms Claire Hanna

What would that mean specifically? Would it be a corporate response, particularly if an organisation does not exist, that would not go into the specifics of incidents? Or would it be in the way that we are all seeking the UK Government to do to provide specific information, specific detail, and specific comfort to specific families. How would Mr. Adams envisage that happening in a credible process?

Mr. Gerry Adams

I think-----

Ms Claire Hanna

-----from the republican movement and the IRA for those deaths for which they were responsible.

Mr. Gerry Adams

I think the language Ms Hanna used there, including the references to "specific" used in a number of sentences, should apply to republicans as well as to everybody else.

Ms Claire Hanna

How would that happen? How would that be forthcoming? We are agreed, and this committee is agreed, that the UK Government is suppressing it. Can Mr. Adams demonstrate that the republican movement has thought through how it would not suppress it and how it would engage with a credible process? I do not think people understand specifics and therefore can have confidence that information would be forthcoming for those victims.

Mr. Gerry Adams

The reason this mechanism does not exist, and I think we are both in agreement on this, is entirely because the British Government has scuppered it. It is not because republicans have scuppered it-----

Ms Claire Hanna

What-----

Mr. Gerry Adams

Sorry, sorry-----

Ms Claire Hanna

A senior member of the republican movement is failing to put forward specifics of how they would act in better faith than the UK Government. We are going around in circles here and I am aware that other colleagues want to contribute. I will just ask two quick follow-up questions. We talked about constitutional change. Looking at new ways to reassure everybody about a future constitution of a new agreed Ireland, would Mr. Adams support the proposal on the preamble of the Good Friday Agreement, that commits all parties to exclusively peaceful and democratic means? Would he support the principle of inserting that in a new constitution to make that a constitutional imperative for a new Ireland?

Mr. Gerry Adams

I do not want to be on the hoof dealing with constitutional amendments but certainly in terms of committing fully to the Mitchell principles I signed up for those and I believe in those. I like to think that I have endeavoured to persuade other people of the worth of all of that.

Ms Claire Hanna

Finally, the Good Friday Agreement states, and I think we have all said, that it is essential to acknowledge and address the suffering of victims. I think we all agree that for all victims the failure to do that and for their needs to be met, including in the ways Mr. Adams has set out over the past 25 years, have compounded their pain and the impact it has had on their lives. Notwithstanding that we all have our own legal rights including to our names and our characters, is Mr. Adams comfortable that legal action against victims of the Troubles helps to address healing and reconciliation and the frustration many feel about the absence of mechanisms for answers?

Mr. Gerry Adams

I do not understand the question. Is it about legal actions against victims?

Ms Claire Hanna

Does Mr. Adams think legal actions against victims, in the scenario where victims are unable to get redress and information, aids reconciliation and the healing of hurt that victims feel?

Mr. Gerry Adams

I am not aware of legal actions being taken against victims. Putting that to one side, I will repeat what I said earlier. Different victims come with these issues in different ways. Some of the victims have been the most outstanding peacemakers. I have met victims of the IRA who have entirely humbled me with their commitment to forgiveness, peace and reconciliation. There are others who, understandably, are too hurt and will not entertain anything other than those who perpetrated their loss being held to account in a legal way. Clearly, the type of Ireland we all want to see is one where there are no more victims of political violence and those who have suffered grievously, in the way we know many have in the course of our own conflict, will at least be reconciled to the fact we are in a better society and are not going to see these types of awful acts perpetrated again. Despite the imperfections and the fact that people have been hurt and killed since, the success of the Good Friday Agreement is in the lives of the thousands of people who otherwise would be dead, which is the strength of the Good Friday Agreement.

Ms Claire Hanna

On that we can agree. I thank the Chair.

Mr. Francie Molloy

I thank Mr. Adams for his presentation and answers. I pay tribute to the work done by Mr. Adams and everyone else within that, particularly the Hume-Adams discussions that took place and that led to the Good Friday Agreement at the end of the day. Recently, about the question of the referendum and when a referendum should be held, Bertie Ahern commented that the Good Friday Agreement was ambiguous and everyone could look at it in their own way. I thought the Good Friday Agreement was a means to achieve self-determination by peaceful means, backed with a vote. I would not like to think that what the Good Friday Agreement was about was open for interpretation. What does Mr. Adams think about Mr. Ahern's comments?

The other issue is around legacy, as was touched on. The Stormont House Agreement, which was not a republican document by any means, was a means of dealing with legacy and moving forward in that particular way, because each family obviously wants different things out of the legacy process. On planning for the referendum on Irish unity, 25 years have passed since the Good Friday Agreement. Coming out of the room that day, I thought we were moving very quickly into a new situation. Twenty-five years seems to represent many lost opportunities for moving the process forward. Nothing has really been achieved except for creating a better atmosphere for the future. Reading back on some stuff Colin Wallace wrote on the role of MI5 in the North during all the Troubles, he said it was part and parcel of both arming and implementing with loyalists some of the atrocities that happened. Looking back on it now, we can see that when the ceasefires were called, alternative organisations were set up both on the republican side and the loyalist side. Does Mr. Adams see a role of the British establishment in that and how those alternative arrangements or organisations were created within it?

All of that now goes in the past and we can talk about the past, but what is needed now for full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement? What are the next steps Mr. Adams sees that can bring this to fruition?

Mr. Gerry Adams

I wish the outgoing Taoiseach, Deputy Micheál Martin, well, but with the change of Taoiseach, it should dust down the Good Friday Agreement and develop a strategy to see it fully implemented. That means engaging with the British Government in a serious and strategic way. It also requires, as was done successfully when the danger of a hard border on the back of Brexit was a real threat, harnessing international supports, leading to the support of our friends in the European Union. The flag the Irish Government flew in all of that was the Good Friday Agreement. Every single engagement the Irish Government had with the leaders of other European states, the Commission and so on, was all about protecting the Good Friday Agreement. It works when you do it and there are concentrated diplomatic initiatives or a series of initiatives. I would argue that needs to be developed. We have public servants, very skilled civil servants and very experienced diplomats. They should be brought in and their best advice sought. We have friends in Irish America. They have been friends since, I suppose, the Irish first went there. Some have always kept faith. President Clinton broke with the previous policy, which was essentially a pro-British policy, and senior powerful politicians on Capitol Hill have made it clear they will not tolerate the British Government breaching or fracturing or bringing in a hard border or destroying any other aspects of the Good Friday Agreement. We need now to harness that in a positive way.

We have no charter of rights. That was a commitment. We cannot blame the Brits for that. We have no charter of rights in this State. Part of the agreement was a charter of rights in each state. Good, hard work was done in the North but the DUP and others continued to prevent it from getting through committee and so on and so forth. That would not be the case here, I presume. Come at it positively, look for what can and should be done, and enlist international supports in pursuit of all of that.

When answering questions, we could all say something better if we had hindsight at the meetings, so I would not pay too much heed to what Mr. Ahern is quoted as having said. The fact is, there is going to be a referendum. The fact is there is a mechanism for that referendum. We need to ensure it is developed, built, prepared for, inclusive, that people take control and we use citizens' assemblies and other democratic forums to make sure the result is one which the people will benefit from, and that includes bringing in the best expert advice on all issues that are concerns for folks, whether it is health services, the economy, rights, or, as I said previously, fears that elements of unionism may have.

Let us do all of that. You are right; I am not going to comment further on it. Clearly the British Government has had its hand in a lot of the subversive activity, particularly on the loyalist front. It actually set up many of the organisations like the UVF and the UDA and so on. That is not to say that there are not loyalists who independently have their own views. The Northern state was established as the result of a coup concocted in the Tory committee rooms in London. That hand is there yet. Let them play all those little silly games; let us focus very clearly on the future and making this an organic process. The change is happening as we sit here. Let us get more and more people involved. In particular, let us get the parties and the Government of this State involved in doing that.

I have two questions and the second is one that I have consistently asked different witnesses during these hearings with the architects of the peace process. The first goes back slightly to the issue of reconciliation. That is one of the outstanding issues of the agreement, which Mr. Adams has touched on and which we deal with week in, week out in terms of implementation. How important is it that the process of reconciliation should be national? What lessons can be learned from the fact that we are marking a series of centenaries here? Last week, we had the centenary of the creation of the Free State. What can be learned from the fact that there was no process of truth recovery and reconciliation, after a period of really horrific Civil War when people were disappeared without notification to their families of where they were, people were tied to land mines, people were shot in their beds or coming and going from their work? We know the damage that caused to society in this State over a long number of years because there was no one who came forward to take part in a truth recovery or reconciliation process between parties involved then. How important is it that reconciliation is not monolithic but that it is organic, broad and national and reflects the fact that the State needs to reconcile with the abandonment of people in the North? Republicans have to reconcile with people to whom they caused hurt and harm How does Mr. Adams envisage this going forward in the context of peacebuilding and nation-building?

The second question is on the issue of the amendments to Article 2 and 3. Many people think those articles were done away with at the time of the agreement as opposed to amended. What should the Irish Government be doing, given the change post 1998, on the issue of everyone born on the island of Ireland having the right to be part of the Irish nation? I have asked other witnesses how the Irish Government could and should give practical effect to that, as opposed to it just being a notional concept.

Mr. Gerry Adams

The short answer to Senator's second question is an example would be to introduce the right to vote in presidential elections to folks living outside the State. This is a clear commitment for successive Governments that they have failed to act upon. That is a practical demonstration. I said, almost in passing, that Ministers from here should be in the North as regularly as possible and that goes for politicians and political parties from here as well. I was a Member here so I know it can be easy to get caught up in the bubble of - I was going to say the bubble of Long Kesh - but the bubble of Leinster House. We should try to avoid that. There needs to be an understanding that unionists might not come here and engage but unionists, broadly speaking, make people welcome. There are enough contacts in civic unionism to ensure that is the case. There are probably other examples that just do not strike me at the moment.

On the issue of reconciliation, partition is deeply embedded in the sinews of this State. It is deeply embedded in the broad infrastructure and the policymaking of the State. We need to start thinking nationally. Another example strikes me, which is very small, but causes people extreme anguish is when they turn on RTE to watch a Gaelic game or a rugby game or something else and they cannot get it because it is blocked in the North.

I share Mr. Adams's frustration.

Mr. Gerry Adams

These might sound trivial but the competitions on "The Late Late Show" say anyone can enter, except if they are live in the North. These are things that frustrate people.

They are important points.

Mr. Gerry Adams

They are all part of the psyche and more than 100 years of partition have had effects. I would argue that everyone involved needs to think nationally. I would say exactly the same thing if I was addressing a Sinn Féin meeting. Fine Gael should think nationally.

Mr. Gerry Adams

Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party should think nationally. We would not do so ourselves, so we should not expect anyone to be reconciled to something they detest or abhor or cannot relate to. It is better just to go on about your business and not get upset by it. The issue of reconciliation would take ages to philosophise on and to try to figure out but the phrase "non-judgmental" comes to mind. Eighty one people who were IRA volunteers or republicans or members of Na Fianna Éireann were summarily killed by the State during the awful Civil War. Perhaps they were killed by virtue the Government but not by virtue of the will of the Parliament because during that period Cumann na nGaedheal did not attend the Parliament. More than 100 were arrested and summarily shot to death, including folks that were tied to mines and so on. I know that there were atrocities on the republican side. We have a long continuum of both struggle and the excesses of violence. I am trying to be sensitive in what I say here. If you extol Michael Collins, watch out. A Francis Hughes will pop up. If you extol Terence McSwiney, Bobby Sands will come out of the history books. Let us try to have a bit of sense about all of this. What was wrong was wrong and what has been done cannot be undone. Let us concentrate our efforts on trying to move forward. I said in my earlier remarks that we have this opportunity that political leaders should be excited about to bring about this new society. To start it all over and to start from new is what we have the opportunity to do.

All states and societies are imperfect. We need to deal with housing, public services, folks who have disabilities, the plight of the Traveller community and ethnic communities. We need to deal with all these matters and we have the possibility of starting all of that anew with the dynamic of a united people and the inclusive involvement of those from northern Protestant stock. All that is before us and there is a way to bring it about. I do not mean to get excited in a romantic, rhetorical or naive way, but to be able to redraw and write the future is the opportunity which has been created out of 30 years of conflict and centuries of disaster. Let us seize that. Part of seizing that is to think nationally.

Sitting suspended at 3.31 p.m. and resumed at 3.36 p.m.

We will resume and I will clarify two things.

I understand the witness has to leave around 4 p.m. or whatever time suits him.

Mr. Gerry Adams

I have to leave at 4 p.m.

We have three speakers. I said I would take Deputy Wynne next, then on the rotation it will be Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael.

We all have a history. We all have a past. In my family, my mother’s name was Devins and she had a relation called James Devins who was a Deputy and was killed in the Civil War fighting on the republican side. On the other side, my mother's brother was killed in the Royal Air Force, RAF, in the Second World War. We all come from a shared past that is a different past in a way. We must learn from the atrocities of the Civil War on all sides. Seán Hale was a Deputy of the Dáil who was shot on his way out of the Dáil. He was murdered. It was wrong. All those executions were wrong as well. I have no doubt about that, but we must learn from and build on that and build a better country for us all.

I would like to talk about improving the North-South bodies when the Executive is up and running again, what we need to do and how we need to address the issue of the future of the island. I hope we might have further discussions in the broader sense on those issues.

Mr. Gerry Adams

Can I interject? I agree with what the Chair said, but we will not learn unless we teach.

Of course.

Mr. Gerry Adams

We are not taught our history. Our schools do not deal with these matters.

Mr. Gerry Adams

If we are genuinely serious about learning the lessons of the awfulness of violence, let us bring in a group of experts. I watched the RTÉ programme on the Civil War. One might take exception to one or two aspects of it but it was a fair look at the war and I am sure those who watched it were shocked by what they saw because we do not teach folks this anywhere in the curriculum.

I could not agree more. The more discussion and debate on TV and in newspapers, the better. We must look to the future, learn from the past and not repeat past failures and mistakes.

Go raibh maith ag Mr. Adams for his submission and attendance at the committee this evening. I have three questions. I will ask the first two, give Mr. Adams the opportunity to respond and perhaps come back in with the last question, if that is okay.

Mr. Adams speaks in his submission about political parties in power. He stated that political parties that have enjoyed being in power in this State since partition do not wish to give up that power. Will he elaborate on why he thinks that is the case?

Second, Mr. Adams mentions in his submission that the sensible goal for all democrats must be to persuade the largest number of people to vote yes. Obviously, having the majority is great and necessary for a united Ireland. However, in line with this committee meeting today and in respect of last week's, which was my first, one does start to think about what happens next. If it were the case that there were a majority with numbers of 50 plus 1, your mind does start to look to the 49% in that scenario. The question is what planning or steps would be necessary to respond to that kind of situation. I know many would almost fear what would happen if that were the case. What job of work needs to be done to prepare for that situation?

Mr. Gerry Adams

Go raibh maith agat, Violet. First of all, when the island was partitioned, two very reactionary states were established. For perhaps one of the first phases of this State, women were very badly treated. That means right up until recently, and arguably that is still the case today. The poor were badly treated. The legacy of the Civil War infected public life in this State for decades, and in some sections it probably still does. Partition does have its own effect. I listen to gibberish. One of the best was RTÉ on the anniversary of the day the British forces left Dublin Castle. That was proclaimed on the airwaves, and all that day on RTÉ, as the time the British left Ireland. That included a very learned commentator who has written at least one book of history. Obviously, it was a big step for the British to withdraw from what was their seat.

I think they just kept the Treaty ports at that time. Is that not right?

Mr. Gerry Adams

The fact is they had not left Ireland, and the Chair has just made my point for me, if he does not mind me saying so. They are still in Ireland, in the part of Ireland that I come from. The notion that this State is Ireland and it masquerades sometimes as being Ireland when it is the island that is Ireland. All of that has its effects.

Liam Mellows prophesied this during the Treaty debate. He would say if you go ahead, there will be men who will get into power, and once in power, they will not want to give up that power. That is the reality of it. Change is scary for some people. The State favoured the big people. There have been huge advances made. This State is not recognisable from what was put in place. You could speculate about history and the British tactic of divide and conquer. What would have happened if the Treaty delegation had come home without signing and had thrashed it out with their comrades and brought it back to the Dáil? If they had united, we could be in an entirely different scenario and the Civil War may have been avoided, and so on. What is done is done. I have this view, which I think I can prove, but I do not have the time to do it here, that there is a comfort for those who are in power. They probably know that when we have a national democracy on the island, there will be a realignment. God knows, some people could end up in the same party as some of our unionist friends in the DUP. Some people could end up in the same party as Sinn Féin. We just do not know. There will certainly be a realignment of politics on the island. That is scary for some of those who have been used to, and who obviously have a loyalty to, this State. That does not mean they are against a united Ireland. It does not mean they are not good Irishmen and Irishwomen.

The 50% plus 1 is just the democratic norm. However, as I said, we need to get the very largest vote possible. We need to move seamlessly, slowly, strategically, peacefully and in a very therapeutic way from the current situation into a new one. For our part, Sinn Féin has a commission on the future of Ireland. We have had two hearings, one in Belfast and one in Derry. We have another one in Donegal, if God spares us, early next year. What was pleasantly surprising for me was the number of people who turned up at those events and said they were northern Protestants but they wanted a new Ireland. I did not think that would happen as quickly as it did. I thought it was too big a step for people to come from a unionist background to a Sinn Féin meeting in Belfast, or indeed in Derry. I am giving that as an example, that there are people from that section of our community who want to engage. They do not like Brexit. They do not like the Tories. They do not like the DUP and its dinosaur attitude to women's rights, to women's reproductive rights, Irish language rights and a whole range of necessary entitlements that people should have by virtue of birthright. All of that is happening. I am just giving that as an example of what we are doing. The SDLP also has a commission going. I know the Taoiseach has the shared island initiative and I think that is also good. However, part of the focus has to be not only by the Irish Government and the infrastructure here, but also by the parties. Why is the Labour Party not up talking to people in the North? Why is Fine Gael not doing that type of outreach? Why is Fianna Fáil not doing that type of outreach?

On that subject, we have been up in the North. We have met Sinn Féin. We have met the DUP. We have met all of the parties. We have been to Derry. We have been to mid-Ulster. We are going up to Newry soon. We are actively doing it, as is this committee. We have been to Belfast and we are going to Derry in January. We have been to mid-Ulster. We are very actively engaged all of the time. We would be happy to go again to west Belfast. We have been to Ballymurphy. We have been to the Turf Lodge. We have been to Protestant areas. We are very anxious to integrate and understand everybody's views. That is just by way of fact.

I thank Mr. Adams for his answers so far, and I will move to my final question. I note in his submission he mentioned that there needs to be a clearer commitment by the rest of us to upholding their rights, and to working with them to make this a better place for everyone. In light of those words, what strategies has Sinn Féin effectively created and implemented since the Good Friday Agreement to demonstrate its commitment to upholding the rights of our unionist neighbours, those who may not even identify as unionists but identify as Protestants, or even those who have Protestants or unionists within their family? Identity comes in all different shapes and sizes.

I ask this question to see if there is an opportunity for others to learn. I am also asking it in light of my own experience. As Mr. Adams knows, I am a former member of the party and I am also a Protestant, and the experience I had was not too positive, with all due respect. I want to put that question to Mr. Adams. I know he is a former party leader. In addition, while we are speaking today about respect and compassion it is right that a person's name is used in the right manner so it is "Violet-Anne", Mr. Adams, and thank you.

Mr. Gerry Adams

Thank-you, Violet-Anne. The main thing Sinn Féin has been engaged in, in terms of trying to understand, is based on the concept I dealt with in my opening remarks, which is that dialogue is the only way to go forward. It is a question of dialogue and proactive listening. For the last 40 years, perhaps, Sinn Féin has been engaged in dialogue with sections of Northern Protestant unionist loyalist opinion and that continues to this day. There is an ongoing process where all of our elected representatives in the North, the Border counties and other parts of this State engage actively with and seek the views of those who are from that section of our community. There is also a need to tackle sectarianism. We have developed an inclusion and reconciliation discussion document which the Ard-Fheis adopted as a policy. We are engaged in outreach to try to understand and explain how this can be achieved. It is a matter of dialogue, dialogue, dialogue, Violet-Anne.

We have two speakers left. Members of Sinn Féin may want to come in as well. I will take Deputy James Lawless if that is okay.

I thank the Chair and am conscious of time. I know Mr. Adams has to get to an engagement and Deputy Carroll MacNeill has to come in as well, so I will try to be brief. I welcome Mr. Adams to the committee. It was very interesting to listen to the earlier parts from my office. The whole series on the agreement has been extremely enlightening and insightful. I remember the agreement and the talks around it well. I met Mr. Adams in the middle of it, not anywhere near the talks as I was not at that stage yet, but on Vinegar Hill for a 1998 bicentenary commemoration. I remember that whole period very well.

Mr. Adams rightly gave credit to a man from County Meath who was on the Fianna Fáil ard-comhairle, Mr. Dan O'Connell. I know he was mentioned earlier. He has sadly passed away since but he was a great Fianna Fáil man and a great contributor. It is good that he has been given credit for his role at that time.

I would like to pick up on a few points from Mr. Adams's opening statement and the testimonies today. He mentioned that there are some parallels with the journey the ANC took. He said that he met Nelson Mandela, Madiba, and got to know him, and how that travelled. One of the things that was done in the South African process that was not done here was a truth and reconciliation commission. A number of us would have concerns about the legacy legislation that is coming through the British Government at the moment or is certainly being threatened. There are domestic issues as well and there are issues on all sides. Such a commission might have been helpful but for whatever reason it was not possible at that time. What does Mr. Adams think is the reason it did not happen? Is it too late to do that now? What is his view on all of that?

Mr. Gerry Adams

I remember the day in Vinegar Hill well.

It was a good day. The croppy boys were out.

Mr. Gerry Adams

Sinn Féin has long favoured the notion of a truth and reconciliation commission. It is interesting that when one talks to folk in South Africa, some of them say that it helped the nation to heal but it did not help many of the victims. We should bear that in mind. That might not be true but I think there is a veracity about it. One can understand why that would be the case. The nation of South Africa was able to go ahead. Obviously, there are parallels with South Africa, but it is not the same. One of the main differences is that all that had to be done was for all the people of South Africa to be given the vote. That was all. They were not partitioned. There was no question of allegiance to another state. Whatever about their particular view, they were all South Africans. When all of them were given the vote, the ANC was very strategic in making sure there was power-sharing and keeping the Afrikaners on board and all of that craic. When the majority decided, they were able to take the lead and come to these decisions. There was no other government saying that they could not have a truth and reconciliation process. There was no other government that had to put its part into it.

I still think there is huge merit in what I term a truth recovery process. The reason it did not happen was that the British did not want it in the first instance. We have seen many examples since. When I come back to this all of the time, this is not to do anything other than to face up to the reality. There are two governments. This is not the British Government's Good Friday Agreement. It belongs to the people of Ireland. The people of Ireland voted for it. In my opinion, the Irish Government's equal co-guarantor role is not being exercised as well as it might be. I know Deputy Lawless was not here earlier when I mentioned as an example how the Irish Government was able to use the best of its diplomatic services, etc., to prevent a hard border. The same approach should be used in terms of all of what we are discussing here - how we shape and deal with the future. I reiterate I was advised that in the South African example, it allowed the nation to go on but it did not actually help some of the victims.

I have one observation and one other question. I will try to be brief because I know time is against us. The last speaker, Deputy Wynne, picked up on what Mr. Adams said about parties which have enjoyed being in power not wishing to give up that power. Perhaps not surprisingly, I do not agree with that analysis. As was reflected earlier with Senator Currie, it is the prerogative of all of us as politicians to have different positions and to advance them. The reason I do not agree with that statement is that it presupposes a particular outcome in a unity context and a particular political framework. I suppose I do not accept that. I think all of us as politicians and political parties have the opportunity to advance our arguments and convince the people. I think that is good because nobody should be afraid of change. As national secretary of Fianna Fáil, I have knocked on doors in Fermanagh, Belfast and other places, just as the Chairman has done with his own party. That is a process that will take place in time but I just want to make the observation that I think it is a good thing. I welcome the opportunity and I think it is something we should do more of. I look forward to the day we can do that across the island.

I am conscious of the time.

Mr. Gerry Adams

My main point is that the Government and the political parties do not have a coherent strategy for the full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. It is not there.

I hear what Mr. Adams is saying. We are allowed to agree to disagree on certain points as well. I will yield to the next member because I know time is short.

If that is okay. After the next speaker, we will go back to Sinn Féin and that will be it if Deputy Lawless is happy with that. I am conscious that it is 4 o'clock now.

I thank Mr. Adams. I will pick up where Deputy Lawless left. Mr. Adams spoke about those who do not wish to give up power. The next page was all about democracy. The distribution of power over the years has been the outcome of democratic elections, some of which Sinn Féin contested here and some of which it did not. Surely Mr. Adams accepts that it was a democratic outcome and that the distribution of power will always be a democratic outcome following an election.

Mr. Gerry Adams

Yes.

That is fair enough. I thank Mr. Adams for coming here.

I have watched him since I was a child. He will be aware that I have disagreed profoundly with his interpretation of history and the justification for violence. I come from a different nationalist tradition. However, I also recognise that he was the person who brought an end to violence, whatever about any earlier involvement or incitement or connection. He was in position to do it, and I really want to acknowledge that. I am struck today by his paper about moving towards the future and reconciliation, and our different perspectives around the full implementation of the agreement. To my mind the full implementation of the agreement is a genuinely reconciled island. That means a genuinely reconciled North, a genuinely reconciled Northern Ireland and a genuinely reconciled island in its totality. I think the Government has a strategy for part of that which is the shared island. I get the sense from Mr. Adams's paper that it is something he rejects as a strategy, and that his view of reconciliation is limited to the border poll. I would like to tease that out a little. My second question is about acts of reconciliation. On page 8 and page 9 of his statement he acknowledges the need for that. Can he outline substantial examples by himself or his own party in that regard, particularly relating to unionism which he has suggested is most important? I will then have one other question, if it pleases the Chair.

Mr. Gerry Adams

I think the shared island is a good initiative. I said that in my remarks. My main point is that the shared island is not a strategy to bring about the full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement.

That is where we disagree.

Mr. Gerry Adams

It is a good thing. Of course it is. Why do we not have a charter of rights in this State? Why? We can poke the finger at the Brits and say they have not done this or that, but this State has not brought in a charter of rights.

I apologise for interrupting but we are members of the EU and we have a European charter of human rights.

Mr. Gerry Adams

There is a specific commitment in the Good Friday Agreement that both Governments will bring in a charter of rights. It has been tried in the North and the DUP has set its face against it. It gets tripped up on all of that. I am trying to say this positively. I am not saying it to score a point. I do not care. I am no longer in public office. I am trotted out on occasions like this to have these discussions, but I am comfortable in my own skin.

I think it is fair to say that Mr. Adams is still deeply influential. Does he not agree? He is still deeply influential and his voice carries a lot of weight with Sinn Féin.

Mr. Gerry Adams

In all modesty, I am just making the point that there is a responsibility in this Government. I am responding to the Deputy's point and saying that she is right about the shared island, and that is a good initiative. However, what else has been done and what else could be done?

I will turn briefly to acts of reconciliation. I do not want to get into this too much because some of these issues affect folks who might not like to have their particular experience rehearsed here. I have met many victims of the IRA, many of them. I met a family whose brother had been killed. It is not clear to this day whether he had been killed by the IRA, but he had been killed and the family certainly had a sense that might have been the case. They had spent a lot of time trying to meet republicans and trying to get somebody to talk to. Eventually it came to my attention and I met with them. I met them again subsequently. They told me about him and the incident in which he was killed. At the end when I responded and they went to leave, they said that was the beginning of the rest of their lives because somebody had listened to them. Somebody who was seen to be a person of influence sat down and just quietly listened to their story and responded. They said that they went home euphoric. I met them here. They went home to Belfast euphoric. There is a small, very tiny proof of the notion of dialogue. I just offer it as an example of acknowledgement and recognition.

It is hugely important, and I thank Mr. Adams for doing so. I believe, as Irish nationalists, that reconciliation is the Irish imperative first. That is the objective. Mr. Adams talks about reconciliation in his paper. However, the language I, also as an Irish nationalist, picked up from it was Tory Government, unionist death squad, DUP intransigence, and the Irish Government has no effective strategy. To me, it was not the language of being able to look to the future. At the same time, as Senator Currie said, there is no acknowledgement whatsoever of a campaign that killed 3,600 people. Throughout the course of his statement he refers to waiting for meetings while there were reports of atrocities in the prisons and the streets and so on, as though Sinn Féin and the IRA had nothing to do with any of that. What Mr. Adams is saying about the future, reconciliation and acts of reconciliation jars, even today, with the language in his paper.

Two things came up in the course of our work on the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. They were two specific examples of reconciliation that are still available to be made. One of them, as he has highlighted correctly today, is the Pat Finucane situation. Both Houses of the Oireachtas have acknowledged that. What we do not treat with equivalence in the Oireachtas is the death of Edgar Graham. I do not think that equivalent treatment has come yet from Sinn Féin, but I hope it will. The Taoiseach, Micheál Martin, and I acknowledged it in the Dáil on his anniversary. He was also a lawyer murdered in Northern Ireland. Can we get to a point where we can treat those two deaths with equivalence? The second example comes from this committee, exactly 12 months ago. We had the families of the disappeared here. As Senator Currie said, we have our little badges which we are probably not supposed to wear. We are wearing them anyway today as others do on different occasions. In his final contribution in December 2021, Michael McConville said:

I have always wanted the IRA to apologise to our family for murdering our mother. I know it has apologised by saying it to everyone at the time it admitted to murdering these people. All I wanted was for the IRA to say it was wrong in murdering our mother, and that she was not an informant. She was not an informant, and it has been proven that she was not.

This is testimony given to our committee as examples of reconciliation that can yet be made. Would these two examples be on the cards? Would these be things that, as an influential person in Sinn Féin and the republican movement, that Mr. Adams could recommend to Sinn Féin as major examples of reconciliation that could be made?

Mr. Gerry Adams

The IRA did apologise for all of those people it shot and secretly buried. It made a public apology for that, and it made clear that those actions were wrong. I can give one example. Sometimes these matters are better carried out quietly because that is the wish of the victim's family. If there are other actions, of course all of us are obliged to look at these to try to find some way to bring healing. A healing process is central to moving forward. That has come out of all of this in a very positive way.

I am so glad to hear Mr. Adams say that. Does that mean he would make that statement?

Mr. Gerry Adams

I have said it before. I do not know how the Deputy missed me saying that.

I did not miss Mr. Adams saying it. What I repeated was that following that statement, Mr. McConville had his interpretation of that, which he gave in his testimony to this committee 12 months ago. He had also heard those comments by the IRA. He was more specific in his follow up. He would say that is not an answer to his question, and he did say that in this committee 12 months ago. I am asking something more specific and taken further than that.

Mr. Gerry Adams

I have given my answer to that, as best I can.

I understand. What about the equivalence of the tragedies of Edgar Graham and Pat Finucane?

Mr. Gerry Adams

If we preach the word equality, there also needs to be in all of this an equality of victimhood. Edgar Graham is as much a victim of all of this as Pat Finucane.

One could, of course, distinguish between the fact that the British state collaborated in killing one of the officers of the British judicial system and actively recruited, trained, armed and gave intelligence to those who carried it out. There may not be an equivalence between the state carrying out these actions and an armed group carrying them out but for the victims there is obviously an equivalence of loss, of bereavement, of grief and so on.

Mr. Mickey Brady

I will be brief because I know Mr. Adams has to leave. I thank him for his presentation. In his submission he said that peace is not simply about ending conflict it is about addressing the cause of conflict. Mr. Adams has been accused of revisionism today and in my view there are parties around this table who have been guilty of revisionism about addressing the core issues of the conflict. I was in Dublin in 1966 for the 50th anniversary of the Easter Rising. There was a lot of rhetoric from Southern Government Ministers about what was happening and what would happen. Unfortunately the people of the Six Counties continue to be abandoned by successive Southern Governments and that is a fact. The other thing I want to ask, for my generation and for other generations, the aspiration or the concept of a new Ireland is no longer an aspiration, it is a project now. While these other parties have talked about how we all agree there should be a referendum but now is not the time, none of us have told them when the time will be. We have only been waiting I think 102 years now, so I will leave it at that. Go raibh míle maith agat.

Mr. Gerry Adams

Well I think the point Mr. Brady makes is a point well made. The issue of ending the union is not a project. What is to prevent co-operation between all of the parties who have a position in favour of a project to find ways of advancing it? Maybe a wee bit of reconciliation between Fine Gael, Sinn Féin, Fianna Fáil and Labour and so on. I am just looking in that direction and not inviting anyone to come back in. There is clearly a huge responsibility on governments and on our own Government and the Tánaiste, soon to be the Taoiseach arís, did make a ground-breaking statement and I will paraphrase it so I might not have it perfect, where he said never again would Northern nationalists, and I do not actually like the term Northern nationalists, but never again would nationalists in the North be left behind by an Irish Government. He will be Taoiseach, I think, on the 17th.

Hopefully.

Mr. Gerry Adams

He does have the opportunity to deal with what I think has been, and I want to thank the committee for the opportunity to come here and all of the commentary back and forth is all good for us all to be opened up by these questions and observations and so on. Maybe, on the substance of what we are saying, there could be an opportunity for the new Taoiseach or the recycled Taoiseach to come and put some elements of substance on this project and on the other issues we dealt with here, whether it is victims or partitionism, legacy issues or the bill of rights. It is a big, big project and I will finish on this if I may. We have the chance to start anew. Very few states, very few countries, very few nations are given the chance to start anew. We have it so let us take it. It will take time, patience, stamina, determination, vision, generosity and generosity is a very important element in all of this. Let us go forward on that and I thank everyone for their commentary.

I thank Mr. Adams on behalf of the committee for his time and I appreciate it was a very important debate for all of us. We recognise by having these meetings the importance of finding a way forward for everybody. On the point of history it was in 1965 that the then Taoiseach, Deputy Seán Lemass, met the then Northern Ireland Prime Minister, Captain Terence O'Neill, in Dublin so in those days there was hope because the two political leaders were meeting. Obviously there has been a lot of water under the bridge since then and we have to get the Executive back up and running. The last point, if I may make it, is that we really need to have the North-South bodies working because they are critical to understanding and meeting the needs of people on both sides of the island. Hopefully Mr. Adam's party will have a huge part.

Mr. Gerry Adams

The Chair is preaching to the choir.

I know that, but I think it is important to say that. The weakness is that not enough of them were set up and there was insufficient engagement. I thank everyone.

Mr. Gerry Adams

Happy Christmas to everyone.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.16 p.m. sine die.
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