That concludes our public session. The general view indicated by the members on the question of staffing seems to be that that matter had best be discussed in private session.
Staffing of Secretariat.
If we go into private session to discuss this matter we will be deprived of having a record expressing our dissatisfaction in this regard. We would lose also the only evidence we have. I dissent very strongly from any proposal that we go into private session because it is vital that we retain the public record of our discussion. If we go into private session nobody but ourselves will be aware of the proceedings.
Perhaps we could deal with the matter in a public session later after we have cleared our minds during a private session and have decided on what exactly are our requirements.
Are we talking of a public session later this evening? Much time has been wasted already in regard to this problem of staffing. The chairman has agreed to submit a draft report for consideration by this committee and this committee should decide whether to refer that draft report on the question of staffing to both Houses of the Oireachtas. It is fundamental to the operation of this committee that the problem of staffing be referred to the Houses of the Oireachtas. If we go into private session I shall leave because I would consider the exercise to be a waste of time.
I am inclined to agree with Senator Robinson. Just now I must leave the room for five minutes so that I can ascertain by telephone whether I shall be able to travel to Europe on Monday morning or whether I shall have to go on Sunday because of the Monday morning flight being booked. These are the circumstances under which we live. If something is not done sooner or later about this I am going to stage the first sit down strike I have ever staged in my life. The more publicity given to this the better.
Perhaps we should go into private session now and go back into public session later.
I second Deputy Boland's proposal.
Can we not have our discussion on this matter now and decide at the end of it whether it is to be recorded. I cannot see us having a private session and then saying after it, " Let us have it all over again in public ".
I agree. Surely we do not need to rehearse.
I feel that one might want to say things about this matter that are not proper for public circulation. This is my opinion and if it is in public session I am going to keep silent. I want it recorded now that we are in public session that if it is a public session I am going to have no hand, act or part in it because there are matters I want to discuss which I do not feel are right to discuss in public.
While I understand the sort of reservations that Deputy Esmonde and others might have there is public business ordered for us; there is the factual report of the chairman on the staffing question. We are to consider whether we adopt this report and send it to the Houses of the Oireachtas and that should be considered in public. If we have other aspects of the problem that we want to go into private session for, then I would accept that we go into private session. This is ordered public business. The whole value of it is that being a joint committee we can go no further with this staffing problem and we must either adopt the report and send it to the Houses of the Oireachtas or think up some other tactic in public session by which we can get proper staff.
I think that once any member of the committee wanted to discuss this in private session we should agree to the request. I am leaving open for the moment whether we later record publicly the decision. If any members feel inhibited by public discussion at this stage, then I think we have no option in the matter.
I suggest that in the preparation of the report dealing with the staff and secretariat of the committee we should have the flexibility of a private session. I suggest to Senator Robinson that we should not show all our hand at a public session in the sense that there may be varying and wide views on the formulation of this report. It would be unwise of the committee to show all of its hand in public at this stage. When we have agreed a report that report should be put on public record.
I would see more merit in that proposal if we had not already had private discussions on this question of staff. We have had private discussions and there is no record of them. We now have a draft report on this question before us and why are we yet again to go into private session ?
I think you should put it to the meeting. We are here talking around the problem for the last quarter of an hour.
The normal way is public session, and a very good reason has to be shown why we should go into private session. I do not know why we should go into private session because this is a matter that has already been discussed privately.
And publicly.
I can see merit in both arguments. I have an open mind on the matter.
I would rather a limited public session than an unlimited private one which would amount to nothing more than a chat around the table.
I suggest that when we have agreed a report we then have the consensus view of the whole committee and that report be put on public record. We do not know the contents of the draft report which has to be circulated. It would be much more flexible to have a private session.
I proposed that we go into private session. This to be followed by a public session. Like Deputy Dockrell, I have no strong views but I feel it would be better to have the private session first and the public one later.
Could I rephrase that proposal suggesting that we go into private session and have it qualified by the fact that there will be a public conclusion to this private session?
Yes.
The Committee went into private session at 5 p.m. and resumed public session at 5.45 p.m.
Is the Committee agreed as to the following? :
The Committee noted that as yet an adequate complement of staff had not been made available to it to enable it effectively to discharge the functions assigned to it by both Houses or to provide any briefings for the delegates to the European Parliament. The Committee intends to pursue this matter further with the Ceann Comhairle.
I would like to dissent from the statement made by the Chairman noting our staffing inadequacy. I would prefer to see us actually adopting this as a formal report and submitting that report to the Houses of the Oireachtas. In essence, we are saying we are not able effectively to discharge the functions assigned to us by both Houses and I think that, whatever private negotiations take place with the Minister for Finance in the interim, we ought to have the possibility of having a debate in both Houses on this question of staffing and our inability to discharge our own functions or to provide adequate briefings for delegates to the European Parliament. We should not delay any further the submission of this report.
I wish to be placed on record as concurring with what Senator Robinson has said.
The Committee adjourned at 5.45 p.m. until 5 p.m. on Wednesday, 27th February, 1974.