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Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities debate -
Wednesday, 12 Feb 1975

Report on Community Energy Policy.

The main purpose of our meeting is to consider the draft report as drawn up by our General Policy Sub-Committee on the energy policy proposed for the Community. As members of that sub-committee know we have given long and careful study to this matter.

On behalf of the Committee I should like to thank the Commission in Brussels who sent experts to assist us. I should also like to thank our own Minister for Transport and Power who was kind and courteous enough to send an expert official to assist us in our consideration of the matter. This assistance was very important to us because this is a rapidly changing situation and there are new developments from day to day. It is also something which we will have to consider in connection with the draft report before us.

Before we agree the Order of Business and consider this draft report on the common energy policy I should like to point out that this is the first public meeting of this joint committee since July, 1974. I would welcome an opportunity to discuss in general terms the work of this joint committee. To a large extent, this joint committee only exists when it meets in public and therefore, for most purposes it has not existed since last July. The work done in sub-committee is not known to the public. The fruits of one sub-committee we will be considering later on but as a member of that sub-committee I should like to express dissatisfaction about the performance of the joint committee to date. We have had serious staffing problems and problems in securing the co-operation of the various Departments from whom we have sought information in order to discharge our functions as a joint committee. Basically, however, we have ourselves to blame for a very poor performance—our record is a poor one by any standards. We were established by resolutions of both Houses in July, 1973 and since then we have had nine meetings, today being our tenth meeting in public as a joint Committee. Our first meeting was on the 3rd August, 1973, there was one meeting in September, three meetings in October and one meeting in November, 1973; amounting to six meetings in 1973. We had only three meetings in 1974, and this is our first meeting in 1975. We have produced three reports, the first on regional policy, the second on Irish company regulations and the third on the harmonisation of value-added tax. These reports, apart from the report on regional policy, have not been separately debated in either House and have not created any impact. Consequently we are not drawing the attention of either House to legislative proposals at the European Community level. We are not discharging the very valuable function which we felt we would discharge when this committee was set up. I should like to refer to the first meeting of the joint committee on 3rd August, 1973, when in glowing terms we described ourselves as the great new advance in parliamentary life here and when we spoke of the most crucial and important role which would mean that we would have to meet regularly to deal with our important workload. I believe our performance has been shabby. We have not met this challenge and we should not look further than the members of the committee itself in order to find someone to blame for this poor performance.

One of the most important sub-committees of this joint committee, that on agriculture, met for the first time in January this year. That is a poor reflection on the willingness of members of the Committee to serve on this sub-committee which should be examining in detail the reorganisation of the common agricultural policy. Agriculture is one of the primary matters being discussed at European Community level and is of critical importance to this country, but the subcommittee is not yet in a position to present a draft report for discussion by this committee.

In my view before we focus on the draft report before us today we should take the opportunity when the joint committee is meeting on one of its all-too-rare occasions to consider ways of having a more definite programme of regular meetings where sub-committees must plan to have a series of reports on different proposals at Community level for consideration by the joint committee. I suggest that this committee examine its workload and assess its willingness to work; and in so doing that the committee admits openly that certain sub-committee meetings had to be adjourned because not enough members turned up to form a quorum. That is a sad reflection on the willingness of this joint committee to discharge its important role in relation to draft EEC legislation, and also the specific statutory function placed on it in relation to Irish ministerial regulations. We should examine our general workload in this way before we proceed to examine the draft report before us.

Mr. Chairman, might I say that in agreeing with what Senator Robinson has said, I share her disquiet at the position in which this committee finds itself? I remember very well the early meetings of the committee. I was described in the Press or elsewhere as a reluctant member of the committee—I am quoting from one account. On another occasion I remember we discussed regional policy and some members of the Press described my expression of concern about the future of the fund as a shrill opposition and I use the word " shrill "——

I am sorry to have to interrupt you but as there is a Dáil division bell ringing, those of us who are Members of the Dáil must leave. I ask your permission to adjourn for, say, ten minutes, while we vote. Thank you.

Business suspended and resumed after Dáil Division.

I was making the point that on another occasion I raised the question of the position of this committee in relation to issues which arose from general policy. At a later meeting I remember submitting the suggestion that it might be better for the committee it concentrate on one area and be ahead in that rather than drifting across all the areas of policy. I am now, more than ever, convinced that the committee is seriously understaffed and I am losing whatever confidence I had in the committee's ability to monitor legislation. I am well aware that a number of the members of the committee have put quite a lot into it, but I am becoming quite sceptical of the committee, as it is currently constituted and as staffed being able adequately to monitor the directives as they appear. Certainly, I am in no way convinced that with the present arrangement with the commitment of the present staff that we can make any significant contribution to the general policy. What Senator Robinson has suggested is a very serious matter and it may well be an appropriate time for the committee to review its position at Community level and its impact here and the response to such legislation in both Houses of the Oireachtas. I am reluctant to say any more at this stage because I feel we should use this opportunity to discuss an important matter such as the energy policy.

Could we monitor on to the first subject on the agenda? The Report of the sub-committee on energy policy. That is the order of business.

I agree and, perhaps, afterwards we can return to the general question of our options and the discharge of our duties.

It is a point that it should be tabled as a separate item for a future meeting.

I have no objection to devoting a future meeting to discussing this point fully. I did mention that the Minister for Transport and Power kindly made an expert available to help us in our consideration of the whole field of energy, with reference to the energy policy. That was necessary because it is a fairly fluid situation. The Council of Ministers are meeting now to take further decisions on the energy policy. That raises the question of whether or not it is opportune for us to report at this stage and I should like to hear from members on that matter. My own view is that it is. We must and should report at some time. If we are to wait for finality on this question of energy before reporting, we will be waiting a very long time. Even though things are happening from day to day, and the Council of Ministers will be taking further decisions in this area tomorrow, something useful will be achieved if we make the report to both Houses at the moment. Perhaps some members would like to discuss that aspect.

I should like to suggest if we are making a report immediately that it would be regarded as an interim report. At the time we are reporting it would be best to make that clear. Otherwise, it might lead to a wrong interpretation.

I think that that will be clear from our deliberations here.

We should establish at this stage the basic attitude of the joint committee towards the report and how they view the capacity to report itself. I do not think the joint committee is or should be, expected to make fully comprehensive statements on the whole energy policy, or in any other area in which it reports. It is the particular function of this joint committee to examine the major policy proposals, and the draft directives and regulations for implementing them, and to draw the attention of both Houses to them so that there may be a full-scale and lengthy debate. The report can focus on the important issues, and on the significance of what is either agreed or about to be agreed at Community level and the overall framework in which it is being done. Consequently, we need have no worries at all about the fact that the situation is changing and evolving all the time. It will happen in relation to every other area we look at, such as the social action programme and the common agricultural policy, because the Community itself is evolving. What we want to do is focus attention on a particular policy and use the report as a trigger for a full-scale debate in either or both Houses on a matter that is as important as the Community common energy policy.

We should, in this report, relate the community's policy to the Irish energy situation and point to the possible dangers of certain implications of the common energy policy. It is that aspect of our function that should encourage us to report fairly regularly. We should consider all our reports as interim reports in that sense, and none of them as definitive, because the policies we examine are on-going policies.

Is it agreed then that we do report at this stage?

In that case I will go through the draft report though most of the members present are familiar with it because they were involved in its preparation at sub-committee level.

In paragraph 1 we outline the various Community documents. We have taken the precaution of attaching a summary of a document entitled " Towards a New Energy Policy Strategy for the European Community ", as a Schedule. It will be very convenient for anybody wishing to study our report.

Paragraph 1 agreed to.

In paragraph 2 we set out the various matters which are involved in the background of this energy policy situation and give our opinion. We might like specifically to direct our attention to this. We say that in regard to the general Community policy (i) there is an over-reliance on external sources of energy inasmuch as uranium and, to some extent, non-Community gas and coal are to substitute for oil as sources of energy.

The conclusion of the sub-committee which examined the Community's common energy proposals was that there seemed to be a tendency in the Community approach to regard energy based on nuclear sources as being " home-produced " energy. This did not take into account the fact that there would be a real dependency on either the United States or Russia for the enriched uranium for the nuclear power stations. This approach meant that the Community common energy policy had a very strong bias in favour of the development of nuclear energy. It is argued that nuclear energy would make the Community self-sufficient in relation to energy and that there should be a very positive move now to develop nuclear energy. In effect, the Community's policy still means that there is an over-reliance on external sources of energy. Indeed, it is a matter of opinion whether the Community should try to be self-sufficient in energy or try to enter into interdependent relationships with oil-producing countries instead of trying to be a rich man's club and self-sufficient in this respect as a matter of policy. I think the joint committee considered it more appropriate for the Houses of the Oireachtas to consider that part of the policy aspect.

We touched on this at the last sub-committee meeting, that it should have been mentioned that we are on the bodies which were called outside the EEC and that we were restricted to the EEC. Our position in the EEC is that whatever regulation is looked at it must be in the framework of the EEC regulations and directives. I do not know whether we came to any decision in the sub-committee as to how we were to approach the subject. I gather that the sub-committee is slightly more restricted. I agree with Senator Robinson that one must measure the external sources of energy. Oil is an external source of energy and the question is how to replace it with an alternative. We have to face up to the fact that some energy must come from external sources. There is not much we can add to that now.

We are all quite clear as to what is behind it. We are anxious that the Community would not change itself from the oil frying pan into the uranium fire. The main thing is that uranium is an external source of power just the same as oil is. In sub-paragraph (ii) we talked about nuclear energy specifically. The important thing there is " even if construction of a nuclear station is finally approved, this country could not produce energy from this source until 1983 at the earliest ".

On that, my understanding of the situation is that the construction of a nuclear station will now commence. This country could not produce energy from this source until 1983. Decision in principle has been taken to go ahead but I am worried about the phrase: " even if the construction of a nuclear station is finally approved ". For the most part approval has been given, that is, subject to planning permission.

The value of this report, if it does trigger off debate in both Houses, is that it will give us the opportunity to discuss the question of whether we should develop nuclear energy and if so, whether it should be done at a speed which would make this a possible source in the early 1980s. This has not been discussed sufficiently at parliamentary level. It is not as appropriate to discuss it at joint committee level; it is appropriate that this report should be a basis for a general discussion on the development of an Irish energy policy. It seems we are very badly in need of it.

The key thing is that we bring out that 1983 is the area of any possible production of energy from a nuclear station. In paragraph (iii) we drew attention to another important matter and that is the approach of the Community in energy policy, a reduction in energy utilisation and we feel that has particular significance for Ireland and indeed a greater significance than for many of the other member countries. The paragraph sets out our approach reasonably clearly.

The paragraph summarises the point raised in sub-committee. The feeling was that there was a necessity to express Ireland's specific position in relation to other countries, and I think that is accommodated in the phrase " central heating ", in terms of the level of energy required for the transition from agricultural employment to industrial employment and also in terms of usage and the development of our production of consumer items which were different from the items being produced in the Irish economy. So that in terms of the usage of energy, Ireland was different. In terms of the dependence on energy to take up, for example, the slack movement of an agricultural constituent, Ireland is different and there is also the proportionally high reliance for basic necessities such as central heating. The only thing that is likely missing in the paragraph is that the question of the usage of energy was raised by a member of the sub-committee.

Usage is a question of degree. What we were afraid of is that it was decided that there be a certain percentage of reduction overall in the consumption of energy and that its effect would be far greater from Ireland's point of view as we are a developing country; that we are in the process of moving from one grave to another so to speak. I do not think we need go any further.

It might meet the Senator to say, " as Ireland is relatively underdeveloped by overall EEC standards," if it was put in somewhere there " and has a different pattern of usage ". Is that true?

Correct, yes. The point I am making, Chairman, and I do not want to delay the committee on it, is that if there is to be a cutback in economic production, even at a future stage, the Community may well decide to direct energy towards the production of necessities rather than items which might not be regarded as necessities. Obviously, at that stage, the impact of Community level decision would be different from what it is now. I suggest a paragraph with that amendment in it.

The Senator raised one point about agriculture—making the transfer from agriculture to industry. I do not go along with him in that regard because where consumption of energy and power is concerned, there has been a great increase of energy and power being consumed in agriculture, particularly in dairying and that type of thing.

Just one minor amendment there. " As Ireland is relatively underdeveloped by overall EEC standards and has a different pattern of usage and consequently relies to a lesser extent on energy for specific purposes." The key thing is that any reduction in the usage of energy would have more serious consequences for us than for most of the other EEC countries.

The Joint Committee is right in drawing the attention of both Houses to the fact that at Community level one is talking in terms of general percentages, a reduction of 10 to 15 per cent by 1980-whatever it is and that we are more vulnerable than the other member states because of the state of development which we are at, and because of the pattern of usage of energy here. This leads to the next paragraph which talks about the necessity for an overall Irish policy on energy.

Yes. Sub-paragraph 2 (iv).

Could I suggest in reference to paragraph (iii) " could have a serious effect on employment and development "? I do not like to put down just " employment ".

" Development and employment ". Put " development " first?

I do not mind. There is a human aspect of it at the moment.

" Employment and development ". Sub-paragraph (iv) points out the " need to review existing energy policies, that such policies should take cognisance of our needs within the general framework of Community policies and in particular the preservation of employment, the expansion of industry, the protection of the environment and the raising of standards of living to Community level ". Agreed?

I am not quite sure of the second line of the paragraph as to what existing energy policies we are referring to. As a consequence of sub-paragraph (ii) and (iii) " there is an imperative need to review existing energy policies ".

Irish energy policy.

There is an assumption underlying that we have several active Irish energy policies running parallel. I would prefer rephrasing to get the point across that there is a need to examine the Irish situation and to evolve an Irish energy policy——

Would Senator Robinson accept then " an apparent need to develop the existing energy policy "?

Could I raise a query at this stage? Are we dealing just with the terms of the Directive?

The point I was making was that one of the functions of this committee was to talk in more local terms than at Community level, and to draw the attention of both Houses to the impact of Community policies on Ireland, and the impact of the common energy policy is that very important policy decisions in relation to energy consumption and conservation of energy are going to be taken at both local and Community level. Unless we are prepared to have a very positive Irish energy policy we may be more badly affected and we may not be able to meet the European commitment or whatever particular situation arises. These may have adverse effects on employment and on persons here. It would be a distortion of our function not to relate the European general policies or Directives and relate them to an Irish context in our Report.

I think we have that, that such policy should take cognisance of our needs within the general framework of the Community policy.

That point that I was making earlier was that the first sentence there talks about the imperative need to review existing energy policies. It was not clear from the wording of that whether it was meant to review existing Community energy policy or Irish energy policy.

I think it means the EEC policy——

What we are referring to there is—Nos. (ii) and (iii) are dealing with what the Community recommends and we are stating the difficulties that it may create for us. Then we go on to say as a consequence of (ii) and (iii) that there is an imperative need to review existing energy policies.

The sub-committee must definitely have in mind our own policies in the light of these EEC commitments.

That is what I mean, it is in the light of these Directives.

That is my understanding of it.

Using the word policies—if you could agree on the question of precisely what these policies are, also emphasise the need to have an overall policy in each country and not a series of parallel policies existing side by side in a sectional way.

I am thinking of an enroachment in a border area, when " policies " taken in the plural would be correct under those circumstances.

If we could change it to something like that; " in consequence of subparagraphs (ii) and (iii) there is an imperative need to review the policy of this country in relation to energy ", and to ensure that this policy——

On your own argument there, you are suggesting that perhaps there is not a national policy and therefore one of the things we should look for is a co-ordinated national policy. The very fact that we say " policies " indicate that there is some co-ordination there at the moment so, I think we had better leave it " policies " rather than " policy ".

Then, I would insert a further sentence that there is an imperative need to review existing energy policies and to co-ordinate a common national policy in relation to energy.

I do not go along with that.

The first wording was " perhaps "—" perhaps to review "——

It does not relate to what has gone before. I think it perfectly states the situation.

What has gone before is that we have looked at the Community common energy policy to which we are adhering and by which we will be affected. If we relate that to the situation here and urge the necessity for a national overall energy policy here in Ireland which may involve the co-ordinating of policies that exist at the moment in different sectors.

If I may come back to the Senator's own point, perhaps it might clear that point for her. " There is an imperative need to review our situation in regard to energy policies ". Is that all right? Does anybody wish to add anything to what such policies should take cognisance of?

" And in particular to the preservation of employment, the expansion of industry, the protection of the environment and the rising of standards of living to Community level ". Now you leave out agriculture I am very disappointed that it is left out there. That could be a very valid point.

I suppose only the drafters can seek refuge in the fact that industry covers all forms of——

The expansion of the economy——

My reaction on section (iv) is that it is a bit cotton woollish. I think one should put a little more meat into it. In particular, I would refer to the need in this country for a differential in favour of the productive use of energy. We, as a committee, should not hesitate to point out particular directions of policy which are needed. I am acutely aware of the fact that, despite the admonitions of the Community for conservation of energy, nevertheless, there is a vast wastage in this country on the consumer side and on the personal services side and non-productive commercial interests. If we are to seriously talk about the preservation of employment and the expansion of the economy on these two key issues we will have to give the Committee a directive in favour of the industries. Putting it crudely means that if we want to spend more money or use more energy as individuals, we pay more while we keep our jobs in industry going and provide a subsidy, in effect a transfer payment, to the more productive industrial sectors. We have to be more positive.

I do not agree on this. Agriculture is an industry——

I regard agriculture as an industry of course.

And its production has increased amazingly.

I think Deputy Desmond was talking about productive as distinct from luxury or non-productive.

We should insert here at least the overall general clause, perhaps at the very start, that such policies should take cognisance of our needs within the framework of Community policy, and in particular should eliminate wasteful uses of energy.

I would even be harsher than that. There are some extra tens of thousands of people unemployed in this country—part of the reason they are unemployed is because of the energy bills in these particular industries, notably the ESB whose oil Bill has doubled in the past 12 months, and many employers say that irrespective of any other factor the ESB have an enormous oil bill to meet, which makes it extremely difficult. The only way they can meet this is by reducing the cost of industry, and of course to reduce the cost of industry means that those of us who waste a great deal of energy, as most of us do, will pay a higher price for consumer energy.

I think what people have in mind in particular is neon signs glaring garishly all night.

To change patterns of usage for productive purposes.

To eliminate wasteful uses of energy. I agree with Senator Robinson, that should be amended.

I agree with the general comment to some extent that this is a rather cotton woolly text, but we have to realise that this report is to stimulate a full scale debate in either House of the Oireachtas. It is there that it is appropriate that the different views be expressed on the policy considerations and that we evolve them in an Irish common energy policy. It is not appropriate that we try to put them in the report, or we will never, never draft the report.

Senators, we have to ask your indulgence again for a few minutes while we vote.

Business suspended to allow Dáil Members to attend Dáil Division.

What was the point we were diverted from?

We were discussing the place in the Report where it would be appropriate to insert a reference to elimination of the wasteful use of energy. I think Senator Ryan was of the view that rather than try to incorporate it in the fourth paragraph, (when we are really talking about the positive energy policy and what the criteria should be), that it would be better to deal with this in paragraph (iii) and I would agree with him. This could be done by referring expressly to the objectives stated in the resolution of the Council we recited at the beginning of the draft.——

The Joint Committee, having regard to the objective stated in the Resolution of the Council of 17 September 1974 of " reducing the rate of growth of internal consumption by measures for using energy rationally and economically without jeopardising social and economic growth objectives. . . .

If we were to recite that at the start of (iii) by saying: " Whereas the objective of reducing the rate of growth of internal consumption by measures for using energy rationally and economically without jeopardising social and economic growth objectives is important in discouraging wasteful uses of energy, nevertheless the proposals to reduce the growth rate of energy could have a more severe effect on this country than on any other member state."

That is correct.

In other words, we think that the Community's objective is valid and then we go on to point out the possible danger to the growth rate in Ireland in realising the objective of reducing the rate of consumption by measures for using energy rationally and economically. It might be difficult to do this in fact without jeopardising our social and economic growth objectives, however, important it may be to discourage wasteful uses of energy.

Proposals to reduce the growth rate of energy demand could have a more serious effect on this country than on any other member state. I would prefer therefore that we say firstly that the objective is valid, then go on to point out that it could have dangers for this country.

That leaves sub-paragraph (iv) on a more positive grounding.

Paragraph (iv) has been amended by the inclusion of—" to review our situation with regard to energy policies " and later " on the expansion of the economy."

Paragraph 2, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph 3 which deals with Directive 68/414/EEC—

imposed an obligation, subject to certain exceptions, on Member States to maintain at all times their stocks of petroleum products at a level corresponding to at least 65 days average daily internal consumption in the preceding calendar year.

Then the paragraph sets out that our particular position to part of that Directive—the fact that there are ten days supply permanently at hand on Whiddy Island means that we need only have 55 days stock on hand to meet the 65 day requirement. I trust the paragraph makes that clear enough.

Next we will deal with Directive 72/425/EEC which increases the 65 days requirement to 90 days. The paragraph indicates that the matter of bringing the stocks in the country up to the required level of 90 days is being discussed between the Department of Transport and Power and the various interests concerned. There is a proposed Council Directive that is likely to be adopted by the Council of Ministers tomorrow. That Directive deals with the minimum stocks of fossil fuel at power stations. It means that our electricity producers must maintain permanently a level of stocks of fossil fuel at power stations. It could amount to the equivalent of 30 days supply of electricity.

I suggest that if we adopt this report today we adopt it subject to a proviso that if this Directive is adopted tomorrow we insert the correct citation for it.

This has now been adopted by the Council on page 9. Are you anticipating that it will be? It is a difficult one—It is likely to be adopted but we do not know so we had better let it stand the way it is.

I think that this proposal is meant to prescribe a number of days which will be adopted tomorrow.

I would have thought it possible that we could refer to the Directive as we described the draft of it here as adopted—if it is adopted tomorrow—in the terms in which we have described it, especially as the text of this report will not be published for quite some time.

Yes, but we are adopting the report today and at this moment when we are adopting it it is still a proposal.

I would argue then about this because I would say it is " a proposal " as opposed to " the proposal " in so far as in the Council of Ministers there have been many views.

The key thing about it is that we have only one organisation involved, and that is the ESB. Their storage capacity is sufficient to enable them to comply with the Directive. Unless the Directive is changed by the council of Ministers tomorrow there is no problem to its purpose.

We will now go on to a draft instrument which is one of the annexes to the document Towards a New energy Policy for the European Community and that is the restriction of the use of natural gas in power stations. We will have the number of that Directive inserted in the final draft. There is an aspect of this to which your attention is directed, and that is the escape clause which enables natural gas to be used in the generation of electricity. This is a matter of some importance and perhaps some members would like to say a few words on this.

I think it is very important that this report should give an opportunity for debate in either or both Houses of the Oireachtas on the question whether or not the finds of natural gas—to the extent that it is found off the coast of Kinsale—should be used by the ESB for their power stations as a matter of overall policy in relation to energy. It is a wasteful and expensive use of his type of energy, and all the policy implications should be taken into account. On the other hand it is an Irish source of energy with the advantages of security of supply. I think it would be very valuable if this report could generate a full discussion on this important policy decision, which seems to have been taken without any parliamentary scrutiny or any parliamentary view being formulated as to the use we make of our natural resources.

Do we know that decision has been taken?

Yes, it is our understanding that the position is that we propose to use the escape clause and enable that natural gas can be used for the production of electricity. Everyone admits openly that that is not the most effective or efficient use of natural gas but, for a variety of considerations, that decision has been taken here. A proportion of natural gas will be used for generation of electricity. This country is enabled to do that because of the escape clause in this Directive.

Is this intended by the ESB as a permanent feature of their system or is it merely as an interim measure until nuclear power takes over? It might be justified as an interim measure.

There are various levels at which this gas might be used by the ESB. It could be used at prime periods in the day using a smaller proportion of it for power stations than is envisaged at the moment. About 50 per cent of it is planned for usage by the ESB which undoubtedly could be regarded as wasteful use of so much of this natural gas. There are a lot of policy considerations, and I do not think they have been debated fully in either House.

I want to make a comment as a follow-through from a remark made by Deputy Desmond earlier when I was referring to my reactions to adopting this. I think you will find an example here in paragraph 2 of the document Towards a New Energy Policy Strategy for the European Community.“ The new energy policy is designed to counter a repetition of the recent oil crisis which exposed the defects in the Community’s present energy supply system.” Here, again, of course, the defects in the Community’s present energy supply could not reasonably be discussed out of the context of the Community’s consumption of energy with its related social values. In the last sentence it envisages far-reaching changes in the energy structure, and here once again you have a document concerning the supply of energy and the future energy structure and they are not speaking in terms of the social values which may prevail in the year 2000. It raises again the question of discussing the uses of energy as an instrument in a vacuum, completely isolated from a discussion of social values. It might, for example, raise the question of, in the short term as mentioned in the financial letter, whether prospecting for gold suggests welfare, economics and growth. In other words, the document is at a level of unreality unless it is put into a more general debate. That is why I hope it will trigger off a general debate in both Houses.

What you are referring to, in fact, is a summary of the Community policy. We cannot really change Community policy by summarising it.

Of course. I am saying that the summary itself indicates an omission in the Community thinking at the general policy level.

In the Council Directive of 17th September they do at least nod in this direction by saying:—

Reducing the rate of growth of internal consumption by measures for using energy rationally and economically without jeopardising social and economic growth objectives.

So, at least, they make an obeisance in the direction of social objectives.

I do not think I have ever seen a document that has used the word " should " more frequently. In every paragraph of the document energy " should " be more rationally utilised and wasteful use reduced to a minimum.

Do you object to the word " should "? Is it that it is not correct? It is merely a guideline.

I certainly agree with Senator Higgins that the policy initiative has moved to Community level and this includes the important policy initiative as to the rate of consumption of energy, as to conservation policy, as to patterns of usage of energy. We must be very careful that we have a national policy which might protect us against the adverse effects of this or help us to benefit from certain aspects of the Community policy. That is what this report should encourage debate in the House about.

In relation to page 9, I should like to make one slight comment. I think that it is not sufficient that this committee should merely draw the attention of the Houses of the Oireachtas to the question of the use of such a valuable source of energy for either electricity or other purposes but I think we should, in particular, endeavour to alert the Houses of the Oireachtas to the need to decide on the question of the control of the use of this particular source, control in the sense of the control of the exploitation of it. There has not yet started in this country the very important debate on public ownership and control or, to use that classical phrase of my colleague, Minister Keating, monitoring the control of it. There is grave need to draw the attention of the House to this fundamental aspect because as of now I understand the question of licences for the exploitation of it, and it does not matter whether it is scheduled for use for the generation of electricity or the generation of fertilisers or other purposes, if indeed the particular on-shore operation is a totally commercial operation under private exploitation as distinct from the need for the State to be directly, intimately and indeed very substantially involved in this. This debate could well be initiated by this committee because it is the fundamental question on the use of energy in relation to oil and gas and I am concerned that such will be the pressures on the Government and the enormous pressures on the Minister for Industry and Commerce that this fundamental aspect will be recognised.

I accept it is fundamentally important, but in this particular context we are only concerned with power stations, and all power stations in this country are State-owned and State-controlled.

Yes, but bear in mind that there is the very substantial economic argument that this is the least economic use of natural gas and, therefore, the commercial interests and others would be out to make a killing on it—as they did in Britain and a very substantial one—for seven or eight years until the British Government discovered that they were being hoodwinked in a very big way. About three years ago they began to realise this after a report of their Select Committee on it. If we reached that situation, we could find ourselves in a very peculiar position.

Is not that a very broad area of Government policy? I am not saying that it is not vitally important. Of course it is. I am not quite sure if it is our function to initiate a discussion on what is essentially a matter of major national Government policy. I agree with the purpose of it, but as to whether or not it is a part of our function is an entirely different matter.

Particularly as in this context we are dealing entirely with State agencies. It is a Government decision as to the use of natural gas and it is being used exclusively by State agencies.

In that connection, on page 9 we point out that the problem we are dealing with specifically is the fact that it is possible that natural gas may be used other than for the most productive uses. I think it is important that this at least should be discussed.

That is what we are doing.

I am concerned that we may create an impression in our report that the use of gas for the generation of electricity was uneconomic and therefore, it shall not be per se economic for the ESB to use perhaps more than 10 or 15 per cent of that find. I gather that two substantial finds have been made off the south coast. That being so, we may then create a situation unwittingly where we would say it is no longer the function of the ESB, other commercial users would come in. We should say that if the ESB are not able to utilise it for, say, economic reasons, then the scope of that problem could be enlarged. We need a State sponsored body responsible for oil and gas exploration.

In so far as it is not being used by the ESB it is being used by Nítrigin Éireann Teo which is another State company.

I think there are two separate issues. The paragraph as it stands is the relevant and appropriate comment of the committee here where we are talking about the very specific directive on the restriction of the use of natural gases in power stations and the fact that there is an escape clause and as to what extent we are going to use that escape clause and use natural gas, an expensive source of energy, in our power stations. But the more general point—the necessity for us to have control over our energy sources—seems to me to be a valid point, but perhaps it would be more appropriate to include it when we talk about the Irish policy, that is the Irish energy policy on paragraph (iv).

It does seem to me that if one looks at what we have said under paragraph (iv) as a consequence of subparagraphs (ii) and (iii) there is an imperative need to review the policies and our overall situation in regard to energy policies. One very important part of that is the question of the control and development and scope of our national resources.

We do not want to preempt the Dáil or the Seanad debate. We ask for a review of policy. Inherent in any review would naturally be——

All I would suggest is, and I think this would meet Deputy Desmond's point, and it is a valid point, that in paragraph (iv) when we actually particularise on the positive aspects of policies we insert a single sentence on control of the national sources of energy, that we refer there to the question of control of national sources of energy.

If you were agreeable I think one could put in " that such policies should take cognisance of our needs within the general framework of Community policy " and in particular the control of such resources, that is, the question of the control of such resources.

We do go into specific detail about the energy policies later in the paragraph; that the energy policy must have regard to employment, the expansion of industry, the protection of the environment and the raising of the standards of living. But we leave out the fundamental issue of control of resources——

I have no wish to obviate any such sentiment, but on the other hand I do not want to preempt the Government's function.

I take a delight in it.

With respect, gentlemen, we are drawing the attention of both Houses to the necessity for a common national policy on energy and this must include, as a primary consideration, the question of control and development of Irish sources of energy.

There may be Members in the House who disagree with you.

Chairman, we will make a socialist out of you yet.

I suggest that it would be consistent that, if in the paragraph we do say, " that such policies should take cognisance of our needs ", which is a very general expression, I would take that at no less generality than our resources, so that if we did put in Deputy Desmond's five words there would only be just as much in the paragraph as that pious statement " cognisance of our needs ".

The only thing about that is we have been over this ground at great length in this sub-committee. This is at least a reference to an important matter of principle, and it is of a very fundamental nature.

Could we not say, if we could perhaps reach agreement on paragraph (iv) at the very end of page 9 where we say: The Joint Committee draws attention to the urgent and far-reaching importance of of the energy situation and recommends that it should be the subject of a general debate as soon as possible. There is nothing to preclude us saying in this report that we have discussed the question of the national control of those resources as the sub-Committee has done, or rather feels it has done.

I would regard as an inherently important matter of policy the idea that the House would discuss energy and not revert to the control of the source.

The point is that we have put in all the other fundamentally important matters and itemised them and, therefore, it seems imbalanced that we do not include the question of control. I am not talking about pre-empting anybody's policy in relation to it, but at the moment the paragraph reads like Hamlet without the Prince.

What you are really doing then is you are inviting the Government to put their policy on the line. Is that it?

I have no objection to that.

We are talking about the formulation of an Irish national policy in relation to energy.

I draw the analogy of the Marathon Oil agreement being signed outside of this House and it took a tremendous effort within the House very much later to have it agreed to be tabled in the House. We have now got to take out our insurance policies. However, this may not be the most appropriate way to do so.

I refuse to be controversial, but just for the record I opposed the Marathon Oil Agreement at the time. That is purely for the record.

That is a classical example.

We have a specific function as a committee, that is, to consider European policy documents, Directives, implications et cetera. I do feel that we are going outside our field, that we are going to enter into the area of State control of the development of the resources.

Remembering here, Mr. Chairman, that you are going to have the subject down for general debate in the House as soon as possible. It has to, apart from the European Communities thing, include the international energy review which has has to be debated and passed by the House before May. That should warrant a full debate on energy. If we are going to tie into that—I am not saying that it is directly associated with it—the actual control of resources of energy, we are going to bring a whole broad range into the Government policy which is not even clearly determined at the moment. I am not sure whether it is or not. We have to take this step by step, and you will find that within two months you are going to have a debate of some sort anyway. Subject to that, I do not think we should try to achieve too much here.

I feel the final sentence sums up the position fairly fully and adequately. We are drawing attention to the fact that it is urgent and far-reaching and we ask for a general debate on the whole subject. Surely that covers every aspect including development, control et cetera.

Maybe we can take it as the intention of the Chairman to produce this general amendment?

I will, certainly.

I will leave it, but I will give notice that I will bring it to the attention of the House.

Same here.

Paragraph 3 agreed to.

Can I take it, then, that the report, as amended, is adopted?

Draft report, as amended, agreed to.

Ordered: To report accordingly.

Have we dealt with the matter raised by Senator Robinson and Senator O'Higgins, viz. a full meeting in which we will discuss our procedures and our work load?

Before we adjourn I should like to mention very briefly that we have made some progress on staffing, that we have allocated to us a Higher Executive Officer, and I am very pleased with his appointment to us. We are hoping to get another Higher Executive Officer very shortly, and as most members know we have had experts from the Departments attending our sub-committee meetings and helping us in our considerations, so in that respect we have made a fair amount of progress. We have also been given new offices which are quite satisfactory and quite adequate.

15 Molesworth Street. There are division bells installed in it. Thank you very much for your attendance.

When is the next meeting? Are there any complications in, say, Wednesday fortnight—Wednesday 26th? When is the by-election?

Next meeting Wednesday, 26th February. Thank you very much.

The Committee adjourned at 6.25 p.m. until 4.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 26th February, 1975.

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