Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media debate -
Wednesday, 15 Jun 2022

Public Service Performance Report 2021: Discussion

Chairman

I thank my colleague, Senator Malcolm Byrne, for joining me this afternoon. We are after having a heated and robust discussion around hotels and Ms Gleeson was in the middle of it all. This part of the meeting is slightly different.

I welcome officials from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. This is the committee's first meeting to examine the public service performance report and to hear from the officials on what was delivered with public moneys across the relevant departmental programme areas. To that end, I welcome Ms Patricia Murphy, assistant secretary with responsibility for corporate affairs; Mr. Joe Healy, head of finance; Ms Mary Nash, principal officer in the arts and culture division; Ms Orlaith Gleeson, who we had the privilege of meeting earlier, principal officer in the tourism division; Mr. Micheál Ó Conaire, principal officer in the sports division; and Mr. Stephen Ryan, principal officer in the broadcasting and media division. What a Department. It is very broad but very exciting, I am sure. Obviously, with Covid, I remind all those present to be careful, safe and mind themselves.

I have a little housekeeping and I ask attendees to bear with me while I attend to it. The format of the meeting is that I will invite an opening statement of not more than five minutes on behalf of the Department, which will be followed by questions from my colleagues. As witnesses are probably aware, the committee may publish the opening statements on its website following the meeting.

Before I invite witnesses to deliver the opening statement, I will explain some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the House as regards references made to other persons in evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not make comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

After all that housekeeping and the tongue-twisting text, I ask Ms Murphy to make her opening statement.

Ms Patricia Murphy

I thank the committee and welcome the opportunity to speak to the Public Service Performance Report 2021 for programme areas A, B, D and E of Vote 33 in the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. I understand the Joint Committee on the Irish Language, Gaeltacht, and the Irish-speaking Community will address programme C.

The context in which the Public Service Performance Report 2021 is framed was a year in which the Department's sectors were among those most seriously affected by the Covid-19 crisis. These sectors employ many thousands of people who are vital to Irish society for our individual and community well-being and the national economy. The public health measures necessitated by Covid-19 in 2021 enabled us to protect the most vulnerable in society but had a profound impact on our ability to watch a match, attend a live performance, enjoy a weekend away and participate in the arts and cultural activity. Since the lifting of restrictions, the sectors of the Department have been safely and successfully reopening. However, rising inflation and the war in Ukraine are factors which cast a shadow over the recovery. For the period of the Public Service Performance Report 2021, a key priority was to continue supports for these critical sectors to allow them to stabilise and to assist their recovery.

I draw the committee’s attention to a number of key indicators for 2021 in relation to these sectors, beginning with tourism. In 2021, the huge impact of the pandemic on this sector meant the normal quantitative information on the performance of the sector was not available. However, in line with the Department’s goal to support the tourism industry to grow in a sustainable way, the Department received a budget allocation of almost €221 million. This allowed for the development of new schemes to support the industry, including the tourism business continuity scheme to support tourism businesses' survival through the pandemic and help drive the recovery of tourism, a marketing group scheme to drive significant levels of domestic and overseas business and an outdoor dining enhancement scheme to develop outdoor dining capacity.

In relation to tracking overseas visitor numbers and revenue, it should be noted that the Central Statistics Office, CSO, air and sea port surveys were suspended in March 2020. The CSO is working on a new survey design to significantly improve the quality of the statistics produced from the survey, with the first publication likely to be after the summer period.

In relation to arts and culture, funding totalling €341 million was allocated by the Government to support the sectors in 2021, including €130 million allocated to the Arts Council and €50 million to support the live performance sector. This allowed for the funding of 897 arts organisations in 2021, as well as an increase in the number of individual artists funded from 700 to 2,202.

In terms of live performance supports, the funding allocation provided for the following. Under the live performance support scheme, capital, over 19,000 days of employment were created; under the live performance support scheme, current, approximately 53,000 days of employment were created; under the local live performance support scheme, LLPSS, all 31 local authorities participated and more than 5,500 individual artists, performers and workers benefited; under the music and entertainment business assistance scheme, MEBAS, 1,088 grants were approved for applicants across the industry; and under the events sector Covid support scheme, ESCSS, over 480 grants were approved to those supplying services in the events sector. In addition, Culture Ireland supported 1,560 artists to present 221 projects.

With regard to sports and recreation services, the Covid-19 pandemic also had a material impact on the levels of participation in sport and physical activity in 2021 as gatherings were restricted for a significant portion of the year. The pandemic also impacted significantly on drawdown rates in respect of the sports capital and equipment programme and the large-scale sport infrastructure fund. Funding totalling €205 million was allocated by the Government to support the sport and recreation sectors in 2021, including almost €140 million allocated to Sport Ireland.

Additional funding of €73.6 million was allocated to help sports organisations to recover and grow post pandemic, support the grassroots networks of clubs and local sports partnerships and ensure that people of all ages and abilities return to sport and physical activity. This funding included field sports funding, a resilience fund for the national governing bodies and a sports club resilience fund, a swimming pool and facilities fund and a resumption of sport and physical activities fund.

With regard to equality budgeting, 2021 saw increased expenditure in respect of the women in sport funding programmes to ensure opportunities continue to be provided for women to participate in sport and support female involvement across the four target areas of coaching and officiating, active participation, leadership and governance, and visibility.

In broadcasting, funding totalling €280 million was allocated to the broadcasting sector in 2021 with all broadcasting targets being met. This included RTÉ expenditure on independently produced television and radio programmes of almost €40 million, as well as an average of 13.45 broadcast hours of Irish language programming per day.

The Department recognises the key role its sectors play in equality, well-being and sustainability across Irish society. The focus of the work of the Department is in supporting the development of these sectors and assisting to improve the well-being of citizens. We thank the committee for the opportunity to speak about the overall positive performance of the Department, as published in the Public Service Performance Report 2021, and look forward to addressing any questions its members may have.

Chairman

Do any of the other officials wish to make a general summary or comment on their own areas of expertise? If not, we can proceed to Senator Malcolm Byrne's questions or comments.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I thank all the officials and witnesses, as well as people in the Department and wider agencies. It should be acknowledged that during the Covid-19 period, the services they provided to the sectors they deal with, including arts, sport and tourism in particular, were among those worst affected by Covid-19. Quite a number of the schemes administered by the Department had to be designed quickly and adapted because of pressure being applied from the likes of us. The committee should acknowledge the work of the witnesses and all their officials, who put in tremendous effort trying to deal with those schemes.

We have heard some of the numbers but because things ran so smoothly in most cases, we may not appreciate it. This is an example of the public service responding very well at times of crisis. It is important we put that on record.

I have a general question. Sometimes we are not even certain of the correct order of the Department's name. It is nearly a quiz question. It brings together a number of different departmental elements. Has that worked relatively well and how can officials ensure co-ordination? In discussions in the committee we dealt with questions around abuse in sport, which has an obvious impact in certain ways with online safety and media regulation legislation. It is about trying to ensure, even within one Department, a level of co-ordination.

Ms Patricia Murphy

The Department is relatively newly formed, and it happened after the change in Government in June 2020. From September 2020 on, various functions were transferred out and in. Although it is relatively new, there is commonality in the overall purpose of the Department with a view to citizen engagement in culture, arts and sport. There is also broadcasting and media, along with tourism. There is a commonality of purpose and the Department's functions sit quite well together.

As part of the Department's reconfiguration, it is very conscious of the need for the different sectors to "talk" to each other so that we can identify areas and have cross-cutting goals. There are a number of structures in place. The Department has an established strategic policy and projects unit where we look at various policies, provide policy advice and do evaluations. This cuts across all areas of the Department.

There is also the development of our statement of strategy, which was published last year. In that we have a series of cross-cutting goals in the area of diversity, equality, climate change, female participation and sustainability. There are goals and objectives identified all across these areas and common themes. The corporate division, where I work, brings the different sectors together to discuss what our goals and targets are and how we can all learn from each other. That is working well.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Rinneadh cáineadh ar na seirbhísí rialtais le linn Covid-19 agus bhí tuairisc inné nó inniu ón gCoimisinéir faoi na seirbhísí rialta sin le linn na paindéime. Ar mhaith Mr. Ó Conaire aon rud a rá faoi sin?

Mr. Micheál Ó Conaire

Tá mise ag plé le cúrsaí spóirt taobh istigh den Roinn, ní cúrsaí Gaeltachta-----

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Gabh mo leithscéal.

Mr. Micheál Ó Conaire

-----ach tá a fhios agam gur foilsíodh tuarascáil an Choimisinéara Teanga. Tá an Roinn, trí Rannóg na Gaeltachta, ag obair ar Bhille na dTeangacha Oifigiúla agus tá siad ag tabhairt leasuithe tríd sa bhealach sin. Táthar ag súil leis an reachtaíocht sin feabhas a chur ar sheirbhísí poiblí trí Ghaeilge. Nuair a thagann foireann Rannóg na Gaeltachta os comhair an choiste Gaeilge, beidh siad in ann é in a phlé níos mine.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Gabh mo leithscéal faoi sin.

Mr. Micheál Ó Conaire

Fadhb ar bith.

Chairman

I am going to hop and skip a little across all the different programmes. I will go to programme A, dealing with tourism. Could I extrapolate a little the rationale for selecting air access capacity as an appropriate impact indicator for the tourism services programme?

Ms Orlaith Gleeson

It gives an idea of the capacity for visitors from overseas to come into the country because ultimately if there is not capacity in the airlines, the capacity for visitors to come from abroad is greatly reduced. Over the past two years of Covid-19, there was certainly a great diminution in access to the State.

Chairman

Would that have not been more obviously under the Department of Transport rather than this Department?

Ms Orlaith Gleeson

Yes, I suppose it is a reflection of transport. Tourism in this Department depends on interaction with other Departments, including airline services in this case. It is an indicator of capacity for overseas visitors to come to the State.

Chairman

Will Mr. Gleeson address the impact of a change in calculation metrics on the values obtained in 2021 for the changes in air access capacity and how the 2021 value can stand in comparison with the 2020 and 2019 values?

Ms Orlaith Gleeson

If it is okay. I will revert to the committee on that.

Chairman

That is fine. I will move to programme B, dealing with arts and culture, which is my favourite of all. Will Ms Nash speak a little about the impact indicators that directly measure the impact of funding from the output indicators?

Ms Mary Nash

I will go through them as they appear.

The first is the arts organisations that are funded. The largest number of those are funded by the Arts Council, with a smaller number funded by the Department. For the individual artists, almost all of those are funded by the Arts Council. The pilot live performance scheme is a Covid-19 scheme. We introduced the pilot in 2020 and we funded 58 organisations under that. The pilot worked very well for the industry and the Department did the full-scale programme in 2021. That funded almost 250 organisations.

The feature film projects from Screen Ireland look very impressive there, but 2020 was a poor year because production had stopped for a significant portion of the year and then restarted in the autumn. A lot of the funding that should have happened in 2020 fell into 2021, so 2021 was a record year for audiovisual in Ireland. When there is a record year like that, we are looking to 2022 and asking what is going to happen this year because 2021 was so good. We are particularly proud of the film skills development programme. Section 481 is the film tax relief for the industry. In the latter half of 2019, we introduced the linking of much stronger training requirements for section 481 recipients. The success of that programme really emerged in late 2020 and in 2021. Instead of having trainees who were more or less new entrants to the programme, the emphasis we now place on it is lifelong learning. One could have a new entrant to the industry or one could have a very experienced Irish director shadowing an international director, such as Neil Jordan, here in Ireland. That would be a training intervention.

Also this year we are pushing bystander training, bullying and harassment training and unconscious bias training, which will be free. We hope that in two or three years' time, everybody who works in the industry will be required to do that training. Initially, in the next year or so, we will be asking the principals, such as the director and the producer, to have done that training. As it is free and each of the modules takes approximately an hour, it is not a huge burden on the industry and the individuals in it. It is to be hoped it will bring us-----

Chairman

Who devised the programmes?

Ms Mary Nash

Screen Ireland, the Department and our consultants and partners in this, the Irish Theatre Institute, developed it. I believe the committee has talked to Ms Siobhán Bourke and Ms Jane Daly. As we have gone through this, it is all learning for us because we are kind of at the cutting edge. Even Ms Daly and Ms Bourke are saying that they are learning all the time, and we are learning. There is an element of trying things out and then going to the funding bodies, the Arts Council and Screen Ireland, and asking them if they would put in a condition about this and whether they would require it. From the Department's point of view, we can put some extra conditions into section 481. We all are well aware of the reports of negative, bad and damaging behaviours in the industry. It is not only in our industry, but we still have to address it. We are helping each other along all the time. This is one of the Minister's priorities and she is very supportive of it.

Chairman

Will Ms Nash refresh my memory on the training schemes she mentioned? Did she mention three schemes?

Ms Mary Nash

Yes, the three are what we call self-led schemes. They will be online. There is bystander training, bullying and harassment training and unconscious bias training. I have done one of them. We are just testing them now, but we hope to launch them shortly. In time, perhaps we can circulate them to the members of the committee.

Chairman

Excellent. We have covered a lot of those topics and we would be more than happy to hear about them.

Ms Mary Nash

The last one is the number of artists supported to promote Culture Ireland abroad. Culture Ireland is part of the Department. We pay artists to go abroad and promote Ireland.

Regarding our visitor numbers to cultural institutions, in 2020 and 2021 we greatly increased the digital visitor experience so that people could visit the institutions online. Of course, we can have reach across the globe and it is hoped that will bring lots of people to the institutions this year.

Chairman

It will further increase the demand for hotel rooms around the city.

Turning to broadcasting, could we talk about the lack of output or impact indicators for the community media piece, such as expenditure on community broadcasting, the number of hours of community broadcasting per day and the reach of community media?

Mr. Stephen Ryan

The principal set of targets is derived from RTÉ and TG4, the public service broadcasters. They have a statutory obligation to develop commitment targets which are reviewed by the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI. As they are the principal centrally-funded bodies, that is how we can commit them to setting targets and have them reviewed. The funding provided to other sectors is via the broadcasting fund. The Department is not directly setting the expenditure and is not able to direct the expenditure because the broadcasting fund is a statutory fund which is independently and competitively allocated by the BAI. It means the Department is not influencing how the funding goes so it is difficult to influence the targets in it. In the future, possibly as coimisiún na meán develops other codes and wider issues come under its remit, there may be a possibility to address the range of targets.

Over the last couple of years, there has been more targeted funding for the community and commercial sector. A lot has been driven by needs within the sector and using sound and vision funding to support it through those years. That was obviously reactive to make sure the sector remained supported, but not something that had been there beforehand. While entities are eligible to apply for grant aid, it is competitive so it is difficult for us to set targets as to what level of support they would be given and the levels of programming.

On the community sector, it is really about social benefit. Most of the community stations are not driven by the need to increase and grow membership. It is more about providing a benefit to the local catchment area, particularly on the community side. As time passes and perhaps as different supports are available to the sector, we could look at how we might then be able to report on outputs and set targets for them.

Chairman

Obviously, the sound and vision fund was a huge help to them in sustaining their viability during the pandemic. It would be nice to see some feedback from that. I have not come to Mr. Healy yet. What is his area?

Mr. Joe Healy

Finance.

Chairman

I might not have a question for him. We did not do anything on sports yet. Who covers sports?

Mr. Micheál Ó Conaire

I do.

Chairman

I am afraid I am not a Gaelgóir, Mr. Ó Conaire. Could you give some details on the steps the Department is taking to meet the targets established from the output indicators?

Mr. Micheál Ó Conaire

I will go through them from the top.

With regard to the sports capital programme, we were a bit below target at the end of 2021.

This reflects the impact of Covid. In essence, two things happened: the restrictions on the construction industry related to what was happening generally with Covid, and the fact these grants are paid out after the work is done. The works have to take place and all the terms and conditions have to be adhered to before the Department pays out. The sporting sector in general had to look at where it was due to what was happening with Covid. Maybe priorities changed for many clubs and sporting organisations. It was more about keeping the show on the road and the books balanced as opposed to any expansion plans for the development of facilities and so on. That is reflected in the drawdown of the sports capital grant scheme.

This is also what happened with the large scale fund, which is the second fund. The large scale sport infrastructure fund was only launched in 2018. It is a new fund. The first allocations were announced just prior to the start of Covid in January 2020. It is a similar situation. Those allocations were announced just before we headed into this period of uncertainty. Again, there was a lot of pivoting. That ties neatly into the third source of funding, which were the Covid-19 supports for the sector.

The Department initially assisted the sports sector in 2020 with €88.5 million in Covid-19 funding. In December last year, there was another allocation of €73.6 million. That money was to maintain operations within the sports sector to make sure organisations remained solvent and were ready to return to sporting activity once that was allowed. It was about protecting the existing physical and operational infrastructure that was already there. Many NGBs only have a few full-time members of staff. They would have been in danger of having to lay those people off if there was not support. The larger NGBs, what we call the big three, namely, the GAA, the IRFU and the FAI, are heavily dependent on gate receipts to supplement their income and meet their ongoing costs. They were very much hit by there being no matches and by low attendances when matches returned. We had five streams in that Covid-19 funding. One was specifically for the big three field sports. There were also resilience funds to support the NGBs of sport and the clubs. There was a dedicated swimming pool and facilities fund that was administered through Ireland Active and, finally, a resumption of the sport and physical activity fund.

Those schemes were quite successful because they have maintained what was there. We are now looking to how we can get the sports sector back up and running. The Minister of State launched a winter initiative in January to try to get people back into sporting and physical activity. We will have another this year. The push is on. Many people are back to sport but we see from the figures coming through the Irish sports monitor administered by Sport Ireland, and it is also in the second set of figures, that there is an issue around getting everybody back. We are not back at the level we were pre-pandemic. That is an issue. It is something we and Sport Ireland will look at, particularly in the different gradients, for instance, female participation as opposed to male participation. Are the same numbers coming back? If not, why is that the case? These are questions that will be interrogated.

Chairman

Have we no analysis of that yet?

Mr. Micheál Ó Conaire

We have the quarter 3 figures for 2021, which are referenced in the impact indicators. Female participation is down somewhat. We are awaiting the final 2021 figures for the full year, which should be published by Sport Ireland in the next few weeks. When we see those, we will get a better picture of the whole of 2021. It is something we are watching because the national sports policy sets a target of 60% participation by 2027. Pre-pandemic, we were at approximately 46% in 2019. That has certainly taken a dip. It is something we will have to look at to see what the causes of that are and what can be done to encourage people back across all facets of society.

One thing we are particularly interested in, and it comes through the sports action plan as well, is ensuring a sport-for-all ethos across the system. It is something the Minister and the Minister of State are particularly interested in. Ensuring there is opportunity for minorities and people with disability, and equal opportunities for female and male participants and people of different age groups across the spectrum, is something we will really look at over the rest of 2022 and into 2023.

Chairman

Will Mr. Ó Conaire elaborate on the large scale sport infrastructure fund? He said it was launched in 2018 just before Covid hit.

Mr. Micheál Ó Conaire

Yes. That was the start of the scheme. The first allocations were made in January 2020 right before Covid. Just more than €86 million was allocated to 33 different proposals at that time. A review of this fund is taking place at present. Given everything that happened with Covid, the slow progress of a number of projects, and what is happening in the construction industry generally with cost inflation, etc., we thought it would be timely to meet with all the grantees and everyone who was allocated a grant.

Chairman

Most of these projects are not yet completed. They are under way.

Mr. Micheál Ó Conaire

They are not completed but most of them have not started. They are going through different stages of the due diligence process. They are all at different levels. All we are doing at present is conducting a review with all the grantees, and of what happened generally with the allocations from 2020 and projects that were unsuccessful at that time. We are having a look at the whole scheme. When that review is completed, which we hope will be shortly, we will have a better overview of what is happening in the sector.

Chairman

Is the Department making any plans for the fact of inflation, which Mr. Ó Conaire alluded to? Projects that may have been set at a particular price will be hit by 30% increases or maybe more.

Mr. Micheál Ó Conaire

That will come into the process for our meeting with all the grantees and reviewing what is happening in each of the projects.

Chairman

The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage will have looked at that in respect of some of the urban regeneration projects. Local authorities have stated they were granted €14 million, for example, but, in fact, it will now take €20 million to deliver a project. A scheme is now in place where the State meets 70% of that extra cost and local authorities will have to come up with 30% themselves. The State is carrying the greatest piece in terms of inflation. Is that where the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media is at in trying to resolve those kinds of difficulties?

Mr. Micheál Ó Conaire

It is certainly about looking at those issues to see what is happening on the ground. From the Department's perspective, the priority is to progress the projects that have been allocated moneys. In meeting with each of the grantees and seeing what the issues are with each project, I am sure that will be one of the issues that will come to the forefront. We will review them all in the first instance and then see what needs to be done to progress the individual projects.

Chairman

On a different topic but still within the area of sport, will Mr. Ó Conaire talk a little about the detail of the breakdown of the number of international competitions from 2019 to 2021 in which Ireland participated and won medals?

Mr. Micheál Ó Conaire

The years 2019-2021 are, again, reflective of what happened with Covid. While the figures for medals were 80 in 2019, 14 in 2020 and 62 in 2021, that reflects the fact many competitions did not take place in 2020 due to the pandemic and things were getting back off the ground in 2021. It was quite a successful year. The Olympic Games took place last year. We were very successful there in winning four medals but also as regards the number of top-eight finishes and whatnot. We also had a very successful Paralympic Games.

Particular targets have been set down in a new high-performance strategy that Sport Ireland launched last summer just prior to the Olympic Games. For the first time, medal targets have been set down for the coming Olympic cycles in 2024, 2028 and 2032. That is a new departure. We believe it is good in focusing the high-performance element and directing our funding so we can see progress being made in particular areas. Many sports are moving towards more targeted high-performance funding in particular areas. That is something the Department has worked closely with Sport Ireland on. We hope to see in 2022 a figure that is more reflective of a full year of competition unaffected by Covid. We will see what the rest of the year holds.

Chairman

I will give Mr. Ó Conaire a break and come back to Ms Gleeson. Fáilte Ireland submitted written evidence to the committee in December 2021, which estimated there were 40,000 vacancies in the tourism industry.

Could Ms Gleeson talk a little about whether those severe skills shortages were in the sector prior to the pandemic? If not, how can employment in the sector be returned to 2019 levels? Were there still a large number of estimated vacancies in 2019?

Ms Orlaith Gleeson

The Department and Fáilte Ireland are working with industry and other Departments to address those skills shortages. In particular, Fáilte Ireland has an extensive plan in place to support the tourism industry. It has initiatives like a marketing campaign to drive awareness of the live jobs and a range of supports around the industry's recruitment capacity. It has a transition year programme to introduce transition year students to the tourism industry. It has a programme to support businesses to access people on the live register and to link businesses with local third level students. It is a comprehensive strategy that is about exposing tourism and focusing on it as an attractive sector in which to work. Over the course of the pandemic, people moved from tourism to other industries. As a result, it is about focusing on tourism and the attractive nature of the sector.

Chairman

Does the Department see that as having been the biggest problem during Covid, namely, that we lost that skill set to other industries? Was there a crisis in skills shortages prior to the pandemic or has this arisen as a direct result of the pandemic?

Ms Orlaith Gleeson

Covid has exposed it because of the closure-----

Chairman

Were people leaving the industry prior to the pandemic?

Ms Orlaith Gleeson

I do not know, but Covid exposed the fact that people left the industry because it closed for so long. Fáilte Ireland came before the committee in recent weeks - as did the Department - and it did extensive research on the reasons for this. This comprehensive plan is an attempt to address that and attract people back into the tourism sector.

Chairman

I want to recap. A comprehensive summary of the plan is to get back into schools and colleges to encourage people. When the Restaurants Association of Ireland was before the committee it talked about having to go abroad to find staff to come and work in that industry and about the difficulty with visas and so on. Is that all part of the plan the Department is talking about?

Ms Orlaith Gleeson

It is, but this is an immediate action. A longer-term recruitment strategy is also needed and that is the purpose of initiatives like the transition year work placement. It is part of the longer-term strategy-----

Chairman

When Ms Gleeson mentions transition year work placements, does she mean transition year in school?

Ms Orlaith Gleeson

Yes. Fáilte Ireland has designed that programme. It is about exposing students to the idea of the tourism industry as a career option.

Chairman

Has the Department taken on the idea that has been given to us in the committee of going abroad to find the skill set and to encourage those people to come to Ireland to work?

Ms Orlaith Gleeson

That would be more an issue for Fáilte Ireland than the Department. I can ask Fáilte Ireland to come back to the Chair on whether it has addressed the issue of going abroad. That might be more of an immediate issue but there is also the longer-term issue of getting people back into the industry and exposing it as an attractive place to work. For example, Fáilte Ireland is developing an excellent employer programme and what it wants to do with that is showcase good employers across the country and help businesses to improve their employer practices and reputations.

Chairman

It is a difficult issue but one that needs to be addressed. Ms Gleeson was here for the debate and discussion earlier and I am convinced that recruitment and retention have a huge part to play in the difficulties within our tourism sector. That was a key point that was made to us in prior committee meetings. We have to sell the industry in trade shows abroad and we have to try to recruit and encourage staff to come to this country to work in that sector.

I might come back to Ms Nash on the arts and culture sector. I mention the impact indicators on visitors to cultural institutions. The number of people attending national cultural institutions' learning and participation events are measures of activity, not of public service quality. Is there no equivalent output indicator that relates to the national cultural institutions?

Ms Mary Nash

Is the Chair asking if the visitor numbers to the national cultural institutions are a measure of output or of public service?

Chairman

There are no equivalent output indicators that relate to the national cultural institutions. There has been a selection of input indicators where equivalent output indicators are missing. I am sorry I know that is a tongue-twister.

Ms Mary Nash

I understand. There is no measure of visitor satisfaction when people visit the National Museum of Ireland, the National Library of Ireland or the National Gallery of Ireland. The Chair is saying that there is no mechanism for asking visitors if they would recommend it to their friends or come back again. I am not sure if any of the institutions have some kind of feedback system. I think they have them on their websites but I am not sure about the position for physical visits. That is something we can take away and ask them about.

Chairman

I have come to the end of my line of questioning. I am sorry that there are not more of my colleagues present, although the witnesses might be delighted at that. We had a two-hour session before this, there are other committee meetings ongoing and I see a lot of our members in the Dáil and Seanad Chambers. I thank the witnesses for coming. This is our first engagement on this particular theme. I am sure it will not be the last. It will take us a lot of time to get our heads around it, no more than it will for the witnesses. We are coming through a difficult and strange time. Hopefully, we will never again be hit with a pandemic or with a similar set of circumstances. I know the witnesses would have all had to think on their feet about the challenges that were faced, be it our national institutions, theatres, galleries and sports venues or the likes of Northern Sound and RTÉ. Ms Gleeson and I have had a lot of discussion on tourism and the impact of that, including today. It is a learning curve and one that continues. I thank the witnesses for their work over the past two to three years through difficult and strange times, including working from home, working here and navigating all of that.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.29 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 29 June 2022.