Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media debate -
Wednesday, 28 Sep 2022

Future of Musical Theatre Education in Ireland: Discussion

Vice Chairman

Today's meeting has been convened to discuss the future of musical theatre education in Ireland with representatives from Royal Irish Academy of Music, the Association of Irish Musical Societies and the Irish College of Musical Theatre. On behalf of the committee, I welcome from the Royal Irish Academy of Music: Ms Deborah Kelleher, director, and Mr. Séimí Campbell, alumnus; from the Association of Irish Musical Societies: Mr. Rob Donnelly, national president, and Mr. Frank Foley, national secretary; and from the Irish College of Musical Theatre: Ms Deirdre Masterson, director, and Mr. Billy Roche, playwright. We will also be joined remotely by Mr. Killian Donnelly, performer.

I will invite our witnesses to deliver their opening statements, which are limited to three minutes. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee. The committee may publish the opening statements on its web page.

Before I ask our witnesses to deliver their opening statements, I will explain some limitations regarding parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or of those who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise, comment on or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in public meetings. Therefore, any member who attempts to attend from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

I remind all those joining us today to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off. I now call on Ms Deborah Kelleher from the Royal Irish Academy of Music to make her opening statement.

Ms Deborah Kelleher

I welcome the opportunity to address this committee on the future of musical theatre education in Ireland. As director of the Royal Irish Academy of Music, RIAM, I run a national performing arts school which trains musicians who aspire to performing careers in classical music, musical theatre and popular music or as teachers, academics, journalists, broadcasters and more. I am joined today by RIAM alumnus and musical theatre director, Séimí Campbell.

I would like to give my perspective on the current status and future possibilities of musical theatre education in Ireland by outlining RIAM’s current offer and drawing on selected international comparisons. I will address the context for employment of musical theatre graduates in Ireland. I will also make recommendations to the committee on a possible way forward to support the musical theatre education.

I define musical theatre education as the training of singers, instrumentalists, directors, musical directors and composers for the professional world, for instance, a commercial West End show.

Examples of Irish successes in this field include RIAM alumnus and London-based director, Séimí Campbell, Olivier and Oscar-winning performer, Jessie Buckley, and musical theatre composer, orchestrator and musical director, Cian McCarthy. While it is wonderful to see Irish talent such as this on the international stage, the musical theatre scene in Ireland at professional level is dominated by the West End shows which are bought in by venues such as the Bord Gáis Energy Theatre using casts recruited in the UK. While there is a burgeoning Irish musical theatre scene in less commercial arenas, which I can speak about in more detail, predominantly we are looking at musical theatre education in Ireland as training our artists for export, while indigenous commercial shows are not financially viable against this strong competition.

Notwithstanding the limited scope for employment in Ireland as a full-time musical theatre professional, in my experience, the market for musical theatre education is strong. Both the RIAM and Lir Academy, our fellow associate college of Trinity College Dublin, annually receive applications from many young people whose dream is to have a career in musical theatre. Our main constraint in taking them in is in the most part due to number caps. Each institution currently can only take in six singers or 16 actors each per year at undergraduate level. Another constraint is the current predominant focus of our courses on classical music and theatre. We hope to expand this intake and build on our current musical theatre offer, which I will outline next.

In explaining RIAM’s current offer and future vision for musical theatre education, I will describe it at three levels: pre-college; undergraduate; and postgraduate. For pre-college, over the past four years RIAM alumnus and dynamic musical theatre director, Séimí Campbell, has partnered with RIAM to create Irish Youth Musical Theatre, an organisation which develops master classes for school- and college-age performers with West End, mostly Irish, professionals and which culminated in July of this year in a semi-staged performance of "Evita" in the National Concert Hall with the National Symphony Orchestra. The Irish Youth Musical Theatre master classes and annual youth productions are invaluable for young people who wish to decide on their future, similar to work experience for transition year students.

For our undergraduate education offer, RIAM's bachelor in music vocal and instrumental students, although they are primarily classically trained, have modules available in musical theatre performance, including voice training improvisation, jazz and popular styles. The uptake on these specialist modules is increasing and we are in the early stages of discussion with the Lir Academy to pool resources and offer more in this area.

At postgraduate level, we have no current offer and I am not aware of any postgraduate offer in Ireland. Our inspiration for the further development of musical theatre at this level is the Royal Academy of Music, RAM, in London and its master of arts in musical theatre programme. Like ourselves, the RAM started out in classical music education but has established one of the most successful musical theatre departments in the UK. Catering only at masters level, the students perform as a company and put on a series of staged productions in one intensive year around which a team of experts give the training. It is our dream in the academy in Dublin to create a masters programme of this level and standing.

One key strength for the RIAM in achieving this goal is the opening of our new campus next month. This spectacular performing arts hub was made possible with significant funding jointly given by the Departments of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media and Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. This was matched by some of Ireland and the USA’s most respected philanthropists. With thanks to that €25 million support, we now have the right standard of infrastructure in place to develop new streams of education, such as a postgraduate degree musical theatre, and we are excited about our future.

I have one recommendation to put forward to the committee. RIAM is not the only institution in Ireland with ambitions in developing musical theatre education. If the committee wishes support a case to Government that Irish-based musical theatre education should be adequately resourced, I suggest that it further recommend that additional and targeted Government funds are tendered for competitively by any interested and eligible third level college.

I have recently served on a specialist panel for the Office for Students in the UK which assessed all eligible UK-based performing arts schools that were seeking additional funding from an overall amount ring-fenced by Government. This competitive process had metrics that were objectively evaluated by industry experts and was therefore fair and transparent. Such a tender could include a business and financial plan, a curriculum outline, a statement of existing resources and infrastructure, the professional standing and industry experience of proposed teaching talent, and the track record of the institutions applying as a predictor of their future success.

Ireland has a world-class reputation for the performing arts and this competitive process would ensure that musical theatre education, which is such an important part of our arts, would be further developed to that high standard. I hope this overview from the RIAM’s perspective has been of help, and welcome the opportunity to provide further information.

Ms Deirdre Masterson

Good afternoon everyone. It is my pleasure and privilege to be invited to Leinster House and I thank the Cathaoirleach for the invitation and opportunity to talk to the joint committee about the future of musical theatre in Ireland. I also acknowledge Irish playwright, Mr. Billy Roche, West End performer, Mr. Killian Donnelly, representatives from the Association of Irish Musical Societies and The Royal Irish Academy of Music and welcome their contribution to this area of discussion which we all feel very passionately about.

My campaign can be broken down into three aspects. The first is the acknowledgement of musical theatre as an art form and an entity in its own right and that it be funded accordingly, using similar templates as is currently recognised for opera, theatre and dance in this country. The second aspect is we should consider creating and providing a national musical theatre company with suitable platforms for our professional musical theatre practitioners, musicians, composers, lyricists, creatives and production teams. The third aspect is that we should highlight what this art form represents with respect to the immense potential it could create in the form of further employment, revenue, tourism and educational possibilities.

It is important to define what musical or musical theatre is. A musical is a stage, television or film production that combines music, acting and dance and utilises popular-style songs to tell a story. It can trace its roots back to religious rituals of prehistoric humankind and has been a celebrated and popular art form from the dramas of ancient Greece right through to current Broadway and West End productions. Though musical theatre overlaps with other theatrical forms like opera and dance, it may be distinguished by the equal importance given to the music compared with the dialogue, movement and other elements.

As a professional opera singer and vocal coach, I was horrified and surprised to learn there was nothing available for a student wishing to study musical theatre at third level a decade ago. The only option of emigration for further studies involved incurring huge financial costs. As a result, I established the Irish College of Music Theatre in 2011 to provide Ireland's first third level musical theatre courses in business partnership with the then Dublin Institute of Technology. I now act as director of musical theatre at American College Dublin and deliver degree and masters programmes where I am proud to promote ten years of successful Irish alumni gracing national and international. However, the harsh reality is we are now training our students to emigrate on completion of their studies. It is sad to advise that the only way we can see our home-grown perform is by travelling to the West End or further afield, or perchance our graduates are employed by an overseas touring company returning to perform in one of the many sold-out performances presented at the Bord Gais Energy Theatre. This will be further discussed by Mr. Donnelly from the West End via video link.

To close, I appeal for us to acknowledge musical theatre for the wonderful art form it is, create a national musical theatre company, nurture and provide for our home-grown talent and in turn create employment, pride and lots of entertainment for everyone.

Mr. Frank Foley

My day job for the last 30 years has been as a second level teacher working in the area of school shows and also community theatre in Inchicore, Dublin 8. For almost 60 years the AIMS has been the governing body for 120 musical societies based in the Thirty-two Counties on the island of Ireland. We have more than 15,000 members performing in on average 800 productions a year from full scale musicals to concerts and pantomimes. Our audiences average 1.2 million. Although we are seen as an amateur organisation, we stage shows to a very professional standard with an average cost of €40,000 to €50,000. We also employ many technicians, musicians, directors, and choreographers. That is along with lighting operators, sound technicians, set builders and painters, costume suppliers, props, hair and make-up crews, stage crews, front-of-house teams and kitchen staff - the list is endless. There could be an average of 120 people working on every production. Our societies perform in theatres, community halls and schools nationwide. Our societies are a vital part of local communities and are sometimes the first introduction to Broadway or West End shows.

Live theatre and live entertainment is vital in every community in today’s society. It is an opportunity for audiences to socialise, meet friends and family, get out of the house, have somewhere to go, switch off and be entertained. It is also a chance for all members to do the same but also to learn a craft and be educated, be it in singing, dancing, acting or staying fit while also making friends. Most societies rehearse a production for an average of three months, which in many cases carries them through the cold and bleak winter months. Being part of a group, be it sporting or artistic, is so important and is very positive for mental health.

The impact of the Covid pandemic on amateur theatre and amateur musical theatre has been devastating all over the island of Ireland over the past couple of years. For all involved, the absence of this platform created a huge void in towns and villages throughout the country. Putting on stage activities in the autumn and winter periods is to a community what sporting activities are in the summer period. These activities galvanise a community, not just local communities but neighbouring communities, as they support one another in these activities, creating a complex web of social and cultural interaction and networking that is unique to Irish society. After the shutdown due to Covid, I am delighted to say we are now slowly returning to the stage. With 42 societies back on stage last season, we are expecting the return of upwards of 85 societies this season between June 2022 and June 2023. Our participants range in age from infants to people in their 80s. It embraces all age groups, irrelevant of class, gender, orientation, religion or creed.

Mr. Robert Donnelly

We are before the committee today to discuss the future of musical theatre in Ireland. Some other speakers here are more qualified professionally in that regard, but I would like to speak about my own personal experiences if that is okay. I moved to Arklow from Drogheda in 1996. It was a town that had no musical society. I joined the local society, Avonmore Musical Society, purely as a way of making friends, but it completely changed my life and I am still there 26 years later.

I had never been on stage, sang, danced or acted before, but now I have taken part in every show since. I learned how to sing, dance and act, gained loads of confidence, and served on committees in a variety of roles from committee member to PRO and to chairperson. Now I address the committee as national chairperson of AIMS. My job and that of all involved in AIMS is to continue the growth of our organisation and the musical theatre education of all our members.

As said, I started my musical theatre education when I was 21 years old, but I am delighted to say many our members are being educated in musical theatre from a very young age through a variety of dance schools, stage schools, choirs, many music festivals and mainstream schooling. We accept members of our society from the young age of six, depending on the need for them in various productions, and we have many members of transition year age and onwards. However, we do not encourage members to partake if they are in school exam years.

For over 20 years, AIMS has been running a youth summer school in Thurles, County Tipperary. The school is a week-long residential course for members aged between 15 and 18 during which they work with a director, musical director and choreographer, and stage a concert at the end of the course. We are proud to say some of our past members have gone on to star in and work on many West End shows and even appear in Hollywood movies. I am delighted to say that many of our members have gone on to join musical societies in third level colleges around Ireland with some even forming new musical societies there where none existed.

Travelling to the UK used to be the most common educational route for many of our members but I am delighted that now there are college courses available in Ireland that enable our young people to stay in Ireland to pursue their musical theatre careers. AIMS is proud to offer two bursaries each year along with the Anne O’Neill Bursary to help some of our members to progress their careers in college. We are also delighted to be able to offer a collaborative scholarship with American College Dublin for an AIMS member wishing to study musical theatre at third level.

Mr. Frank Foley

One of the positives for AIMS during Covid was that musical theatre was finally recognised by the Arts Council. We would like to thank Niall Doyle and all his staff in the Arts Council for the help and support given to us and especially for the much-needed funding, which we hope will continue in the years ahead. This funding enabled us to put in place a mentoring and performance critical appraisal pilot scheme, which is currently running among our societies and will be complete in summer 2023.

We would like to develop this programme for the entire musical theatre sector, including in education and schools, to educate and develop this sector with a tailor-made programme suitable for school musical theatre performances. This will be carried out on an AIMS regional basis, with regional-based mentors in place. This input with professional and experienced mentors will greatly benefit schools and young people as well as enhance the standard of performances in school musical theatre in their local community and further help the musical theatre sector as the students move into third level education and the professional sector.

With the committee's support, we hope that the role of musical theatre education can be protected, nurtured and helped to continue growing. I am excited to hear that there are changes coming not only in the junior cycle, with artistic performance as a short module, but in the leaving certificate curriculum, including a new subject, namely drama, film and theatre studies. I hope musical theatre could be a part of this new subject and especially artistic performance. As stated, many secondary schools already perform and stage full musicals annually. Having musical theatre added as part of this subject would be very beneficial. Many thanks for listening to us.

Vice Chairman

I thank Mr. Donnelly and Mr. Foley for their contributions, which are much appreciated. We now move to the question-and-answer session. I will take members as they indicate.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I thank our guests for their presentations and the work they have done. I know Mr. Roche is well known as a playwright, but he has also written a musical. To illustrate the challenges, what has been his experience in trying to get a musical off the ground? If we are to produce world-beating musicals in Ireland, what needs to happen?

Mr. Billy Roche

As a professional playwright, I have a few avenues to go down. Writing a musical was a challenge for me. I gave it a go only to find that there was no direct route for me to take. Where do I go to find all the skills that have been mentioned and are needed to put a production together? It is also a huge ask financially. My main problem is what I do next, now that I have written a musical in Ireland.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Could Mr. Roche go to the Arts Council for instance?

Mr. Billy Roche

Yes, but the institution is not there, by which I mean there is no direct route to some institution that could say what works and does not work. Musicals take a lot of time and work. They need to be workshopped and built. This happens in England all the time but seldom in Ireland. We have taken a few shots at it. For example, Michael Collins - A Musical Drama was a wonderful musical that should have gone around the world. Why did it not? It was a "Lawrence of Arabia" waiting to be exploited.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

My next question is for Mr. Campbell and Mr. Donnelly, who have experience working in the West End. Why have we not been able to grow musical theatre productions in Ireland?

Mr. Séimí Campbell

As musicals are considered commercial, we do not receive funding from the Arts Council. I am mainly working on new musical writing. I am based in the UK. I will refer to three musicals, one of which is being produced in Ireland. I will come to that one in a moment. Despite efforts to make the other two musicals home-grown with all-Irish teams and Irish directors, one is going to Canada and the other to the UK. While we would have loved to have grown these musicals and premiered them on home shores, sadly they are both heading further afield next year.

The exciting opportunity for this year is that RTÉ is producing its first piece of theatre, or its first new musical, Toy Show the Musical. Hopefully it will show that what can be done. It is a commercial title, based on something we all know and love. It is our responsibility to show audiences what theatre and musical theatre can do. RTÉ can do it because it is our national broadcaster. It is a massive risk and it is incredibly brave of RTÉ to do it. How can our national theatres and freelance producers take similar risks and we cannot? They are viewed as being commercial and that is why we do not get funding for all of the new work.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

How would Mr. Donnelly see himself performing more often on an Irish stage?

Mr. Killian Donnelly

It would probably be if I was employed by a British producer in a production that was coming to Ireland, as happened three or four years ago when I was playing the role of Jean Valjean in Les Misérables. It was a UK and Ireland tour. That was the first time I got to perform at home in a professional show. It sold out within a week or two, although, granted, it was Les Misérables. I was 20 minutes from my house and could cycle to work. Things like that were unheard of when I was growing up in the 1980s and 1990s, as everyone has discussed.

I am a product of amateur drama, which Mr. Foley and Mr. Rob Donnelly spoke about. That is where I got my training because I did not have third level education available to me. I did what many people do - I gave it a go. I said goodbye to my family, got on a flight and moved to London in 2006. In 2018 I got to come back to do a musical in Ireland for six weeks at the Bord Gáis Energy Theatre. I was meant to go back with a production of The Phantom of the Opera but Covid stopped all that.

As regards new work, Mr. Roche mentioned Michael Collins: A Musical Drama. I played Michael Collins in that show many years ago. It had a lot of word of mouth and was going really well. It started in the Theatre Royal Waterford and went to the Olympia Theatre but then it just stopped and that was because amateur and semi-professional performers were employed on it and helping it go but there was just no funding. Bryan Flynn, who wrote the musical, has since departed. He took out a second mortgage to keep the production going, just to see if it would have legs. With proper funding, public relations and word of mouth, there would be so much more behind all these musicals. As Mr. Foley stated, AIMS has 15,000 members. There is a lot of talent out there; they just need to be facilitated and know where to go.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I have a final question, if I may. Obviously, the committee members are legislators and make recommendations to the Government, the Arts Council and so on. If there were one thing Mr. Donnelly could ask us and the Government to do to facilitate the growth of musical theatre in Ireland, what would it be? If there were one recommendation within the control of the Government or the Arts Council to grow musical theatre in Ireland, what would it be? One of the other witnesses may wish to come in on that question.

Mr. Killian Donnelly

It would be to have our own national theatre where musicals are performed. The Abbey Theatre facilitated a musical entitled Come From Away and it sold out. It is running on Broadway at the moment. No one had really heard about it but, because it was a musical, it sold out at the Abbey. There is a demand for musicals over there. I am a self-employed actor and I have to go to the UK to work. I am getting married in three weeks. My wife and my two-year-old son live in Dublin, so I fly home once a week, and have been doing so for the past 15 months. There are far more people like me in the UK. It is not just me. I have been very lucky but there are many people in a similar situation. It should not be seen as a hobby but, rather, as a way of life and work. Theatre is therapy for me and many other people. Mental health was mentioned earlier. It is so important, and not just for a night out or to get away from it all. Theatre is therapy.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I know Ms Masterson wishes to come in, but do Mr. Killian Donnelly, Mr. Campbell or any of our other guests have any idea approximately how many Irish people are involved in the West End, be that employed on stage, back stage or behind the scenes?

Mr. Killian Donnelly

There is one Irish person involved in The Phantom of the Opera and there are two involved in the production of Les Misérables down the road. Mr. Campbell may know more on that. They are on stage. As regards crew, for the 30 cast members who are on stage, there are approximately 150 people employed back stage. There are also the front-of-house staff. There are approximately 12 theatres in the West End and it is probably 1% of the complement in each theatre.

Ms Deirdre Masterson

On the question regarding what should be the take-away for members, as legislators, from this discussion, musical theatre is not acknowledged as an art form in its own entity. That is the real problem here. When it comes to arts funding, it is getting caught between two stools. Opera, dance and theatre are funded. There is a clear structure and application forms set out what the requirements for those are, but that is not available for musical theatre because it is not acknowledged or respected. That needs to happen. If one asks any sort of search engine what is the most popular form of theatre at any box office, it flashes up that it is musical theatre. It is a gold mine we are not availing here and it is time that we got musical theatre as an art form in its own entity.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

The witnesses are all very welcome. They will be speaking to the converted in my case as I am a lover of musicals. Any time I am lucky enough to be abroad, in London or wherever, I go to shows. I go to the Bord Gáis Energy Theatre whenever I get a chance. I am blessed to be from Longford. We have a fantastic stage school - the Evolution Stage School run by Paul Hennessy and Tracey Carty. There is also St. Mel's Musical Society. Any show they put on compares to what I have seen in London or New York. They have put in a significant amount of dedication through the past 40 years. The Backstage Theatre is a fantastic venue for putting on and supporting events such as that. We have fantastic talent throughout the country. I was chatting to Senator Malcolm Byrne about this earlier. We were in New York and got tickets to Matilda on Broadway. I saw it in the Backstage Theatre a number of months later and, to be honest, there was a far higher level of excellence in the production from the Evolution Stage School in Longford. There is massive talent in the county.

As regards people on Broadway, I have to give a shout out to Maryann Lynch, whose mother teaches in my local national school. She is a member of the ensemble in a production of The Commitments which will be starting in the UK one of these days. She is one of our homegrown talent from Longford who is now hitting the stage. She will be in Dublin in the new year with The Commitments.

It is about funding and creating opportunities here. What funding comes from the Arts Council for musical theatre at present? I read the opening statement provided by AIMS, which states that three bursaries for third level study are funded. What places or opportunities are there within the third level sector for people to get a qualification? Are there other bursaries or support measures for those who wish to pursue a career at third level here?

Mr. Frank Foley

As a matter of research, I told some of our bursary recipients in the past couple of years about this meeting and asked them what they would consider important. One of them, a young lad starting up, is also appearing in The Commitments. He said maintenance grants are one important aspect. When he came out of school here, there was no funding or grants available to support him in going to Bird College, whereas he said up to £18,000 was available to some of the UK recipients at the college. He referred to having to take out three loans and his parents paying for him to attend Bird College. A girl from Wexford spoke about the performance arts not being talked about by career guidance teachers at second level. I am a career guidance teacher. There could be a change in that regard so that performing arts is not a dirty word but is presented along with banking and whatever other careers people want to pursue.

More could be done to convert teachers to the benefits that attach to the performing arts and a career in the performing arts.

There is very little done with regard to colleges. Many young people go to the Irish College of Musical Theatre, Ms Masterson's college, and the RIAM, but many are also going abroad. There are costs to families with regard to that. Our bursaries are quite small and a drop in the ocean compared with the costs of going to the UK to train.

Mr. Robert Donnelly

As Mr. Foley said, the bursaries are small but there is a vast expense of going to college. Figures of €18,000 and €20,000 per year for courses were mentioned. It shows how desperate people are to embark on this career that they will attend if we give out a grant of €1,000 or €2,000. It means so much to them because they may have to take out two or three loans. We are lucky that we have the big scholarship with the American College Dublin, which covers full tuition for two years of the college course. This is a major help for one of our members. It is purely for an AIMS member. Having sat on committees with Ms Masterson, I am aware that people from AIMS are applying to attend the college and others are coming from abroad to get parts on these courses. Ms Masterson probably has more experience of that if she wishes to talk about it.

Ms Deirdre Masterson

I thank Mr. Donnelly. We have sat on audition panels for the American College Dublin AIMS scholarship-bursary to which he referred. The problem we have is the volume of applications. Every one of them is worthy but we have just one scholarship to give out, which is tuition for two years of a four-year degree programme. We have come some way by creating third level education here, which creates an option for people to study at home and they are not emigrating for studies. However, it is still not acknowledged, recognised or assisted financially by the Government or the Arts Council. There should be more waves there in creating more possibilities for those students who want to stay in Ireland to study. The other question then is where they will work. They are getting an education but then, like Killian, they cannot come back and we cannot get to hear and see them unless they are employed by an English touring company to come back to the Bord Gáis Energy Theatre.

Ms Deborah Kelleher

I will briefly add to what Ms Masterson has said. The good news is through the good works of the people in Longford and AIMS. As Ms Masterson said, there is a critical mass of young people whose ambitions are in musical theatre. In recent years, degree programmes have grown. For instance, Munster Technological University and Dundalk Institute of Technology also have musical theatre undergraduate programmes. There is, however, such a volume of applicants for places that it is still underserved. It is encouraging for our art form that the interest is there. Through the work that AIMS has done there is such a volume of interest and such support locally for it that it is almost an obvious area for the Government to develop. The problem is that as educators, we are still in the situation we were in after the last recession when our budgets were cut rather than increased. The willingness to develop things is not matched by the available resources that we have.

Mr. Billy Roche

With regard to the bursary from AIMS, I have just done some work, a short film, with Megan Pottinger who is the latest recipient. I was looking at a star. She has come straight from the amateur world into the professional world. I will certainly be going back in her direction, if I can put it that way.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

My two takes from the contributions are that there is a need for additional places and increased opportunities to study through the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, and increased Arts Council funding for higher bursaries to give people an opportunity.

Mr. Séimí Campbell

The Irish Youth Musical Theatre, our national musical theatre training platform set up through the academy, has failed to receive finding from the Arts Council so far, despite our collaborators being at the academy and the National Symphony Orchestra. We still have not been successful in getting any funding to do our national productions.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

What reason was given?

Mr. Séimí Campbell

Again, it is a criteria issue to do with highest merit. It comes down to the same thing as all of the other productions that are in development, namely, that is a musical and it is commercial. While the backing of the National Symphony Orchestra and the academy should only add weight and excellence to it all, it is seen to be something bigger and possibly considered that it does not need such funding. Musical productions are so expensive. If the Abbey Theatre was to do a musical, as I hope it soon will, it could cover much of the cost but these productions are massive beasts and need so much additional funding from the Arts Council to get them over the line.

I am an associate director in the National Theatre in the UK and I have seen what we came back with after Covid, which was a new British musical called Hex. I just think what brilliant programming it is for Britain's National Theatre to come back with a family piece of musical theatre. This is a musical form bringing in so many new faces and putting new bums on seats. It is showing those families and kids, the theatregoers, what theatre can be. It totally celebrates British artists. The music is so British and the full creative team is British. Why can we not do something similar here with our artists? I believe this is what RTÉ is doing so well in this new venture. It is an Irish story told by Irish artists and with an Irish creative team. It is about how we can see that in our producing houses. As I said to Ms Kelleher as we came in the door, while having a separate stand-alone chat about musical theatre as a separate entity is needed at the moment, we should be working towards the day when musical theatre is part of theatre. When I am at home I am called a musical theatre director but in the UK I am a theatre director. It is the same thing. Musical theatre is theatre and can give people the exact same merits, rewards and experience as a theatregoer. That is the journey we need to make.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I have one final question. I see on the screen a reference to Michael Collins: A Musical Drama. I had totally forgotten about that. What went wrong there? Michael Collins was such a high-grossing film some 20 years ago and told a particularly Irish story. We are now in the decade of centenaries and the musical should have been supported. What went wrong that it did not happen?

Ms Deirdre Masterson

David Wray who is head of our music department is the arranger for that. One of our tutors, Eoin Cannon and Killian Donnelly were performers in it. It goes back to my opening statement. There is no criteria to submit for appropriate application forms to gain funding. Whereas box office sales are really buoyant and show that musical theatre has probably had one of the best - if not the best - box office sales in the country, as Mr. Campbell said, it requires funding to put on a professional set-up. If competitors are coming in with the bells and whistles, one cannot then do a semi-professional version because it is deemed amateur in the public eye. If this is to be done professionally, it needs to be funded accordingly. Currently, there are no appropriate application boxes to tick in order to do that. Similarly, as director of the Irish College of Music Theatre, which is now more than ten years old, we have not received anything either.

Senator Shane Cassells

I welcome all of the witnesses. This committee is honoured to have them here representing such a breadth of talent in this country. That is the very essence of this committee and we are honoured to have them.

I was struck by Mr. Roche's comment about writing music and then asking what he should do next to put all of the other components together.

His comment brought back to me an experience from this summer, when Senator Malcolm Byrne and I visited Ashford Studio in Wicklow, where we met the legendary producer Morgan O'Sullivan on the set of "Vikings". Malcolm and I had not been recruited to be part of the show; we were deemed too good-looking, our skin was too soft and our features were too nice to be part of a rugged set like that, but we had the ruthless streak, all right.

Mr. O'Sullivan made a point about pathways, and this is what I want to focus on with our guests. He said the country was devoid of pathways for new writers. Even though we are renowned as a literary country, the lack of pathways to get young people writing for shows that are produced here was striking to us. His ask was similar to that of our guests and related to creating pathways to get that basic talent, such as that which we are lucky enough to see Mr. Donnelly have on screen, to the end point. We need to be able to bring the statements of our guests to the relevant people to try to create those pathways and make them happen. As Mr. Donnelly mentioned, he decided to give it a go and he was lucky to make it, but he started in St. Mary's Musical Society in my hometown, Navan. New talent was presented at the AIMS awards this summer in Killarney to Katie Fitzsimons, who won the award for best actress in a supporting role in a production by St Mary's Musical Society of The Wizard of Oz. We can see the young talent is there, but it is about having the pathways to ensure their success.

We talked earlier about the barriers to domestic production and Ms Kelleher referred in her statement to the costs associated with that. We may have a critical mass of young people, but do we have a critical mass of audiences to balance out that production costs Mr. Campbell spoke about, or is it a case of needing massive Government subvention to make that a reality? This applies equally to the music societies. St. Mary's Musical Society in Navan has been on the go since the 1960s. Its costs for putting on shows, and I am sure the costs of all our guests' societies throughout the country, have risen exponentially. From an amateur point of view, they too might comment on facing those costs.

Ms Deborah Kelleher

That is an interesting question. I can answer from the academy's perspective. I am going to use the example we are more comfortable with in the academy, namely, opera. Our opera training programme at bachelor level is exceptionally good. You would have to be stone mad to leave the country at undergraduate level to study opera; it is that good. Our singers win international competitions and get roles in major opera houses.

In order to do that, ten years ago, we committed a serious amount of money for education. I was struck by the comments of the gentleman from AIMS because our investment equated to the exact same sum. In our annual opera production - we are the only college in Ireland to offer an annual fully staged opera production - there is no change out of €60,000. For a small college, that is a lot to find. It is even more expensive for musical theatre because there are additional aspects such as dance, movement and amplification, so that would probably cost more.

What has made our opera programmes so successful is that real-life experience our singers have with professional directors and crews. They go out into postgraduate study or into the world ahead of the game. Musical theatre education in Ireland has not had committed Government support. There is the excellent work that Ms Masterson has been doing, and there is the Munster Technological University and Dundalk Institute of Technology, but this is an expensive education art form, so it needs ring-fenced additional support. The reward is that so many young people want to study there, so there is no shortage of supply. Moreover, as Ms Masterson said, musical theatre is probably the most popular art form in the world, aside from perhaps death metal, which probably has an unexpected calling.

There is the interest, the critical mass and the societal benefits to it; it just requires investment, but not on the scale of a national health service. For educational purposes, it is expensive to mount these productions, but for performers, musical directors, writers and everyone who is in training, that is the coalface where people really learn and that is where the funds are lacking.

Ms Deirdre Masterson

The current structure for the art forms that are acknowledged in regard to funding, namely, opera, dance and theatre, would be a suitable template to consider. It works proficiently and it is acknowledged. For me, if we could get one takeaway from this meeting, it would be that. That structure would work and it would be a starting point for all the other issues we are chatting about to feed into under the big umbrella.

Mr. Robert Donnelly

Many of our societies offer community theatre. For the likes of Mr. Roche’s work and the productions Mr. Campbell was talking about, they need massive financial input. Our shows cost between €40,000 and €50,000 to put on. If I decided to stage a show tomorrow and I needed €40,000 or €50,000 to do it, I would not have a hope of doing it. On the other hand, if we are staging a show next year, as I might do with my musical society, Avonmore, businesses in the community will come on board and we might get €100 from one shop and €500 from another. If we are lucky and we get on to the county council, we might get a grant of €500 or €250, depending on how many sporting or musical groups are in the pot when the money is being divvied out. As other guests noted, we are looking for financial investment in order that we can put in the groundwork or the basis on which we can build this.

To pay tribute to two of the other guests. I had the privilege of seeing Mr. Donnelly in Waterford when we won the award for best newcomer at the Waterford International Festival of Light Opera. It is amazing that someone I saw starting there years ago has gone on to star in the West End. Similarly, I saw Mr. Campbell directing shows at Trinity College Dublin when he was a student and also in Donegal, and now he is directing shows in the West End and another here in Dublin, namely, Toy Show: The Musical.

We are blessed to have people of this stature and talent in the country. With no disrespect to Mr. Campbell and Mr. Donnelly, we have so much talent in this country that they will not all get a chance to shine, and they will travel to the UK to make a career in this business. If they are lucky and they get in that door, that is great, but if they do not, they will end up coming back home here, where they have so much to give in this world of musical theatre.

If we can use the likes of Mr. Donnelly and Mr. Campbell to help establish, as Ms Masterson and others outlined, a national musical theatre in this country, that would be great. People travelled from Ireland to the West End to see The Commitments when Mr. Donnelly was cast in the lead role, with an all-Irish cast. If that show had been staged in Dublin, everyone would have gone to see it because we support our own. I have no doubt that when Mr. Donnelly came here to star in The Phantom of the Opera, the sales went through the roof, not because that particular musical was coming but because Killian Donnelly was coming home to Ireland to play the lead in The Phantom of the Opera, and that is amazing. Likewise, it is great that Mr. Campbell is coming home to direct shows in Ireland.

That is where they should be performing, in Ireland and for us and the people who are here. People will come. Every show in the Bord Gáis Energy Theatre or elsewhere in Dublin is packed out because musical theatre is the biggest entertainment form. It is our hobby, but it is a profession for some of the other guests and we need to do all we can to keep that going.

Mr. Killian Donnelly

A thought came to me as we were talking earlier. I had my first audition for Les Misérables in 2007. I went onto the stage of the Queen's Theatre and in the audience were about 11 creatives, one of whom was Sir Cameron Mackintosh. I sang a song and he asked me where I was from. When I replied "Ireland", he said the Irish and the Welsh belonged in musical theatre. I plucked up the courage and asked him why he thought that, and he said that judging by the quality of the untrained voices, there was something in the water.

Having said that, in 2018, at the Bord Gáis theatre, I performed Les Misérables as Jean Valjean. I met young Irish people at the stage door who said they would love to do this. I asked them why they did not and said that there were colleges. They told me that they cannot afford London.

On the creation of work, I did three workshops before The Commitments went to rehearsals. In the previous three years that led up to rehearsals, I got two weeks' work, with a script of The Commitments and singing songs where I would try new ideas. Someone like Billy Roche would benefit from a workshop of his new show being funded. That was being paid for by a British producer, who now owns the rights to The Commitments. Roddy Doyle was in the room with us but he worked with all of us. The British producer now drops an Irish story all over the world.

Senator Shane Cassells

This is similar to the work we did with Sport Ireland. We compiled a body of work and presented that to the Ministers when they came in. Could we do something similar with these submissions so that we can try to get feedback to what people are putting forward and so that today is not open-ended? I have an observation on the briefing document that Ms Kelleher provided to us. She equated musical societies and so on to being the musical equivalent to the power of the GAA in every community. There is a natural amateur base to support a professional base and to give credence to the calls that the witnesses have made today. It was an excellent observation.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Can I make a formal proposal to build on the Senator's point? There are a couple of things, apart from a bring him home campaign that we might be following. Senator Cassells talked about having The Oireachtas: The Musical and auditioning for it-----

Senator Shane Cassells

There are two talented Meath men in the room.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

The Senator has just as big a stage. I have a couple of formal proposals to suggest to the clerk to the committee. The first is that we write to the Arts Council to recommend, as a committee, that we recognise musical theatre as an art form in the same way as theatre, dance and opera. We could specifically ask the council to do that and to outline its strategy to promote and develop musical theatre in Ireland.

Mr. Foley and Mr. Donnelly mentioned the new and exciting subject at second level relating to film, drama and theatre studies. We should write to the Minister for Education and the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment to seek to have musical theatre incorporated as part of that subject. As Senator Cassells suggested, I recommend that we write to the Minister based on the discussions today about the report. We should ask the Minister to consider this and we should continue to follow up on these issues.

Vice Chairman

We should certainly write to the relevant Ministers so that they can engage with their relevant Cabinet colleagues about looking at musical theatre as an art form along with theatre, drama and music. The restricted funding streams for the sector have been highlighted here. I am dealing with Castlebar Musical and Dramatic Society. I tabled a few parliamentary questions about this issue. Thankfully, Ms Masterson addressed them in her opening statement. Bridging that gap to put on these high-quality shows and allowing both the cast and staging crew to have insurance cover for materials cannot all be absorbed by ticket sales and the generosity of local businesses. It needs State support.

I have another question that Mr. Donnelly might answer about the feasibility of establishing cross-jurisdiction partnerships with the West End and the relevant theatres here in Ireland. Has that been explored to ensure that our talent has equal opportunity and people can raise their own profile?

Ms Deirdre Masterson

I can answer with regard to the theatres in Ireland. I have engaged with many theatres in Ireland as part of my job. They are open to and willing to engage in collaborations because their box office sales show that musical theatre is currently highest ranked for them. They facilitate musical societies around the country too. That is not a problem. I think they would welcome it. Those of us who work across the pond all have connections. We are back here to try to ensure that all these opportunities are available at home and abroad.

Vice Chairman

We have just gone over time. Senator Carrigy may come in briefly.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I thank the Chair. I was at a meeting in the Backstage Theatre. It received a lot of funding for workshops throughout the Covid pandemic, whether for acting, music or theatre. It was beneficial. Both Senator Malcolm Byrne and I raised the issue of funding pantomimes last Christmas so that they could be put on. We set a precedent for supporting these shows and, therefore, we should expand on it and support music. I will probably be looking at Ticketmaster for tickets to see Toy Story with my kids.

I am the chairman of the Joint Committee on Autism. It is important for every show to have a quiet version for autistic persons where the sound is not as loud.

Mr. Séimí Campbell

We are looking at those kinds of shows.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Yes. I happened to be at a show recently and we had to leave due to the noise and sound. It is important that it is taken into account and advertised in advance for families and parents whenever a show is put on. I am delighted that Mr. Campbell is working on that.

Vice Chairman

I thank our witnesses for attending today's session. It was a good session.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.38 p.m. sine die.