Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media debate -
Wednesday, 10 May 2023

Development of Local Community Arts: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

This meeting has been convened on the topic of the development of local community arts - policy-making and funding - with officials from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media and representatives from the Arts Council, the Arts Council of Northern Ireland, the National Campaign for the Arts and Create Ireland, which is Ireland's national development agency for collaborative arts. I warmly welcome each and every one of our witnesses to the committee. From the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, I welcome Ms Mary Nash, principal officer, arts, film and investment unit, and Ms Letitia Stepenske, assistant principal officer, cultural schemes unit. I also welcome: Ms Tania Banotti, director of Creative Ireland; Ms Sinéad O’Reilly, acting strategic development director, and Ms Maureen Kennelly, director, from the Arts Council; from Ealaín na Gaeltachta, Ms Rachel Holstead, áisitheoir ealaíon, agus Ms Siubhán Nic Grianna, cathaoirleach ar bhord Ealaín na Gaeltachta agus ball foirne de chuid Údarás na Gaeltachta; from the Arts Council of Northern Ireland, Ms Karly Greene, director of strategic development and partnerships, and Ms Gilly Campbell, director of arts development; from the National Campaign for the Arts, Ms Annette Nugent, steering group member; and from Create Ireland, Ireland's national agency for collaborative arts, Mr. Damien McGlynn, director.

The format of today's meeting is such that I will invite our witnesses to deliver their opening statements, which are limited to three minutes. As they are probably aware, the committee may publish their opening statements on its web page.

Before we proceed to opening statements, I must explain some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses around references that witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected by absolute privilege pursuant to the Constitution and statute in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means witnesses have absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty, as Chair, to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to attend where he or she is not adhering to the constitutional requirement. Therefore, any members who attempt to attend from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

I propose we proceed with the opening statements in the following order, namely, Ms Nash, Ms Kennelly, Siubhán Nic Grianna, Ms Greene, Ms Nugent and Mr. McGlynn.

Ms Mary Nash

We thank the committee for inviting us here to discuss this very important subject. The Department sent a detailed ten-page submission on the topic to the committee, so I will confine myself to a brief overview. Many of the interventions in local and community arts are developed and delivered by the State bodies and national cultural institutions under the aegis of the Department. The Arts Council is the primary funder of the arts in Ireland. The Minister has allocated more than €130 million for this year to the Arts Council. As the council is here today, I will focus on the other State bodies under the Department.

The national cultural institutions play an important role in the development of local and community arts, by increasing access to the national collections through online programmes and by lending objects to regional museums and galleries. National cultural institutions have a range of outreach and educational activities to engage diverse communities across the country, aimed at facilitating the public’s understanding of items in the national collections and the broader context in which they were produced. The Department also funds local and regional museums as well as small-scale local festivals and summer schools.

Within the Department, the Creative Ireland programme, now extended to 2027, is a culture-based initiative designed to promote individual, community and national well-being. From 2018 to end 2022, the Creative Communities initiative, in conjunction with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage has allocated €29 million to local authorities to support community-led participation. Creative Communities delivers investment directly into local creative economies through their local authorities. Every local authority has now established what is known as a culture and creativity team, bringing together arts officers, heritage officers, librarians, biodiversity officers, Irish language officers, archivists, Age Friendly Ireland and Healthy Ireland representatives and economic development officers. The idea behind this is to highlight the role arts, culture and creativity can play in local issues as varied as public engagement on climate action, local creative economies, migrant integration and aging well.

In so many areas, local authorities play an invaluable role in the development of local and community arts. For example, under the community strand of the decade of centenaries programme, significant funding of €2 million has been prioritised for local artists and creative communities. The Department works closely with our key stakeholders as well as in partnership with local authorities. We are looking forward to hearing the views of the members of the committee and of the other witnesses and will be happy to answer questions.

Ms Maureen Kennelly

We are delighted to have the opportunity to address the committee today to talk about our work in the area of local and community arts. We are proud to have played a critical role in the development of local and community arts over six years. We are guided by our ten-year strategy, Making Great Art Work, which sets forth a vision for Ireland in which the arts are valued as central to civic life. Everybody in the Arts Council cares about the well-being of future generations in Ireland and that guides all the work we do. The strategy gives equal weight to the artist and the public engagement. Our goal is that more people can enjoy high quality arts in more places.

We also have a spatial policy, where we stress the importance of the arts in the broader public policy, such as Project Ireland 2040 and Our Rural Future. Barriers persist, unfortunately, in growing and diversifying audiences and we are committed to breaking new ground. We desperately want the arts landscape to be more representative of Ireland and of how life is lived there today. Children and young people are a priority, as makers and audiences and later this year we will publish a new policy which will focus on children and young people. We have a long-standing public sector partnership, which is critical to our work, that celebrates 40 years in 2025.

As Ms Nash mentioned, we have a budget of €130 million this year. We will invest 93% of that directly in artists, arts organisations, people and places. This is investment goes to 55 arts centres, such as Wexford arts centre and 139 festivals, including Ballydehob Jazz Festival and many more. Our direct investment into local government this year is €3.3 million. With that, we are able to leverage an additional €41 million per annum by local government, which is a staggering sum indeed. We have invested €4 million to date in establishing 12 creative places around Ireland, in places such as Shannon, Darndale and Athy, which have reached 60,000 people every year so far. We are investing €3 million per annum in creative schools and have reached 831 schools to date. We have been running Culture Night since 2019, with a significant 15% of the population taking part. As Ms O'Reilly keeps reminding me: the equivalent of eight Croke Parks full to capacity took part in Culture Night last year. We are hoping to exceed that figure this year.

At the heart of local and community arts are the artists that both the Arts Council and local government and now the basic income for artist pilot programme support. It is their brilliant ideas that bring joy, contribute to our well-being, spark ambition, provoke thought and engage the public in life-affirming and meaningful ways.

Ms Siubhán Nic Grianna

Fáiltíonn Ealaín na Gaeltachta roimh chuireadh bheith ina láthair inniu. Is páirtíocht idir Údarás na Gaeltachta agus An Chomhairle Ealaíon é Ealaín na Gaeltachta a fhreastalaíonn ar sheacht gcontae Gaeltachta. Tá cultúr na Gaeltachta agus cothú na Gaeilge mar bhunchloch de gach cuid dár ngníomhaíochtaí. Tá forbairt agus cothú na n-ealaíon áitiúil agus pobail agus na n-ealaíon dúchasach agus comhaimseartha sa Ghaeltacht ina raison d'être ag Ealaín na Gaeltachta. Bunaíodh an comhlacht 25 bliain ó shin. Is feithicil lárnach agus tábhachtach é i bhforbairt cultúrtha, sóisialta, eacnamaíoch agus teanga na Gaeltachta. Anuraidh, thacaigh Ealaín na Gaeltachta le sé ionad ealaíon, 20 féile ealaíon, le os cionn 20 togra aonuaire ealaíon agus le 48 ealaíontóir aonair, a sholáthair imeachtaí agus ghníomhachtaí ealaíon agus a mheall rannpháirtíocht ó 350,000 ball den phobal agus 2,500 páiste óg nó duine óg ina measc.

I dtaca le hábhar plé an tseisiúin inniu, déanfaimid cúpla moladh. Tá roinnt de na moltaí seo déanta i ndoiciméad níos cuimsithí atá seolta faoi bhráid an chomhchoiste. Déanaim tagairt don infreastruchtúr ealaíon sa Ghaeltacht agus an tábhacht atá leis an infreastruchtúr sin. Tá sé aitheanta go bhfuil tionchar suntasach ag ionaid ealaíon lánaimseartha atá bainistithe go gairmiúil agus atá suite i lár an phobail ar chruthú agus ar chur i láthair raon foirmeacha agus chleachtais ealaíon. Is féidir leis na hionaid ealaín an pobal a nascadh agus a spreagadh, cultúir dhúchasacha agus éagsúla a cheiliúradh agus a athnuachan agus nasc beo bríomhar a éascú idir an pobal agus ealaíontóirí. Tacaíonn siad le cur chun cinn chleachtas ealaíon proifisiúnta, comhoibríoch, deonach agus amaitéarach i measc gach aoisghrúpa agus réimse sa tsochaí.

Cé go bhfuil ról tábhachtach ag imeachtaí ealaíon ar nós féilte agus Oíche Chultúir, is deacair tionchar ionad ealaíon a shárú mar áis a bhfuil sé de chumas aige freagairt go cruthaitheach do chomhthéacs agus riachtanais ilghnéithe an phobail.

Faoi láthair, Cuireann Ealaín na Gaeltachta maoiniú ar fáil do sé ionad ealaíne i dtrí chontae Gaeltachta ar bhunús bliantúil. Cé go bhfuil feabhas tagtha ar an leibhéal maoinithe a chuirtear ar fáil do na hionaid sin le roinnt blianta anuas, tá gá cur leis an maoiniú sin agus leanúnachas an mhaoinithe a chinntiú. Thacódh sé sin le bunsheasmhacht agus inbhuanaitheacht a chur faoi na hionaid seo agus cuirfidh sé lena gcumas pleanáil don todhchaí. Moltar maoiniú a sholáthar ar bhunús ilbhliantúil do na hionaid ealaíne seo, bíodh sé sin trí lárchiste na Comhairle Ealaíon nó trí chiste breise tacaíochta ilbhliantúil a sholáthar d'Ealaín na Gaeltachta. Moltar chomh maith go mbeidh comhpháirtíocht agus tacaíocht idir-rannach ar fáil chun na bearnaí atá aitheanta san infreastruchtúr ealaíne i gcontaetha Gaeltachta uile nach bhfuil ionad ealaíne iontu a líonadh.

Maidir le forbairt agus cothú na n-ealaíon teangabhunaithe, tá aitheantas idirnáisiúnta bainte amach ag ealaíontóirí a dhéanann ár gcultúr Gaelach, ár dteanga dhúchais agus ár n-oidhreacht a cheiliúradh tríd na cleachtais ealaíne. Is acmhainní fíorluachmhar iad ealaíona teangabhunaithe na Gaeilge agus is gá iad a chothú. Aithníodh é seo cúpla bliain ó shin nuair a rinneadh cinneadh straitéis náisiúnta d'ealaíona teangabhunaithe na Gaeilge a fhorbairt i gcomhpháirtíocht leis na páirtithe leasmhara go léir i réimse na n-ealaíon agus na Gaeilge taobh amuigh agus taobh istigh den Ghaeltacht. Díríonn an straitéis sin ar chomhordú agus ar chomhoibriú i bhforbairt na n-ealaíon Gaeltachta agus Gaeilge a neartú, ar phróifíl na n-ealaíon a mhéadú go náisiúnta agus go hidirnáisiúnta agus ar dheiseanna nua a aimsiú chun tacú leo. Molann muid don Roinn Turasóireachta, Cultúir, Ealaíon, Gaeltachta, Spóirt agus Meán, a thionscain an obair seo, an straitéis náisiúnta d'ealaíona teangabhunaithe na Gaeilge a fhoilsiú go luath agus oibriú i dtreo na moltaí atá luaite ann a fheidhmiú i gcomhair leis na páirtithe leasmhara cuí. Molann muid chomh maith d'eagraíochtaí náisiúnta a bhfuil sé de dhualgas orthu tionchar lárnach a imirt ar fhorbairt cúrsaí ealaíne na tíre feabhas agus forbairt a dhéanamh ar leibhéal agus caighdeán na seirbhísí i nGaeilge a chuireann siad ar fáil do phobal na Gaeltachta. Moltar chomh maith an cinneadh atá déanta ag an gComhairle Ealaíon le gairid ceann ealaíne do na healaíona Gaeilge a cheapadh.

Ní féidir leis na healaíona áitiúla agus pobail a scaradh ó na mórcheisteanna a imríonn tionchar ar an tsochaí. Ar nós na tíre i gcoitinne, is pobal ilchultúrtha pobal na Gaeltachta. Is pobal tuaithe é den chuid is mó agus imríonn easpaí infreastruchtúir agus an ghéarchéim tithíochta agus lóistín tionchar ar éagsúlacht agus inmharthanacht an phobail féin agus ar a gcumas a bheith rannpháirteach san ealaín. Tá na féilte ealaíne go mór faoi bhrú agus iad ag iarraidh lóistín a aimsiú d'aoi-ealaíontóirí ar chostas réasúnta, gan a bheith ag caint ar an lucht freastail. Má táimid i ndáiríre faoi phobal inmharthana, beo, bríomhar agus cruthaitheach a bheith againn i gceantair Ghaeltachta, is gá a chinntiú go bhfuil an soláthar infreastruchtúir ar fáil.

Mar fhocal scoir, tá Ealaín na Gaeltachta ag plé go laethúil le pobail tuaithe, pobail ealaíne agus pobail le Gaeilge. Is cnámh droma ár gcleachtais mar eagras ná meas a bheith againn ar chruthaitheacht gach ball den phobal, tacú leis agus tacú leis na healaíontóirí iad féin ach go háirithe. Is fúinn go léir atá sé a chinntiú go bhfuil na tacaíochtaí cuí ann. Glacaim an deis seo lenár mbuíochas a ghabháil leis an gComhairle Ealaíon, leis an Roinn Turasóireachta, Cultúir, Ealaíon, Gaeltachta, Spóirt agus Meán, le hÚdarás na Gaeltachta, le hÉire Ildánach agus le heagrais eile nach iad as na comhpháirtíochtaí agus tacaíochtaí leanúnacha a chuireann siad ar fáil d'Ealaín na Gaeltachta. Níos tábhachtaí arís, tugaimid aitheantas ar leith do na healaíontóirí, do na heagrais ealaíne, do na coistí deonacha agus don phobal i gcoitinne arb earnáil na n-ealaíon Gaeltachta agus Gaeilge iad.

Ms Karly Greene

The Arts Council of Northern Ireland is the official funding and development organisation for the arts in Northern Ireland. We fulfil broadly similar functions to those of An Chomhairle Ealaíon. At the heart of what we do is a commitment to increasing public access to, and participation in, arts. We want the arts to contribute to the creation of an innovative and diverse society where everyone has the opportunity to fulfil their creative potential. The council’s investment in community arts provides an important assurance that traditionally under-represented communities have the same opportunities as others to enjoy the benefits of the arts. We support the widest possible range of organisations, including support organisations such as: the Community Arts Partnership; the University of Atypical, which supports disabled, D-deaf and neurodivergent people’s involvement in the arts; and others like Beyond Skin and Arts Ekta, which work with refugees and asylum seekers.

Where we identify gaps in service across the region, we intervene with targeted resources. Three current interventions are producing pioneering work in the area of arts and health. The arts and older people programme, the young people and well-being programme and the creative schools programmes each benefit from a pooling of expertise as well as funding, with professional artists introducing new creative dimensions to the work of a range of partners from the Public Health Agency to the Education Authority.

With the review of public administration in 2015, local authorities assumed greater responsibility for the arts in their council areas. However, council spending is under considerable pressure and this additional responsibility has not always been met consistently. The Arts Council of Northern Ireland has taken measures to incentivise spending on, and the integration of, arts at the local level. In 2019, we introduced a capacity and resilience programme with the councils in Belfast and Derry and Strabane to support arts organisations to adapt to the changing environments of these growing cities. We also established a deliberative forum for rural communities in 2021 to strengthen the voice of artists and activists. That forum led to the development of the council’s three-year £1.5 million rural arts engagement programme, which is now in its second year.

The lack of a sitting executive in Northern Ireland is undoubtedly impacting on the role that the arts can play in helping to deliver government priorities. However, the single most critical factor holding us back is decades of chronic underinvestment. Northern Ireland’s arts receive the lowest level of government support across these islands, currently standing at just €5.36 per capita. This compares with €25.47 in the South. The Irish Government clearly cherishes the arts and appreciates their value. We can be thankful that the strong historical relationship between the two arts councils on the island continues to be significant as we emerge from the pandemic and experience increasing cost-of-living challenges. We will explore joint initiatives and build on the framework of support that we already offer our jointly-funded clients. The arts in Northern Ireland consistently achieve a level of national and international success whose return far outweighs its government’s investment. We should think of how brilliant, highly-talented, highly-skilled artists are making that money work and imagine the heights we could achieve with even just a little bit more.

Ms Annette Nugent

I thank the committee for inviting the National Campaign for the Arts to this meeting on local and community arts. As a sector, we really recognise the stellar work and investment by many arms of government in recent years, particularly through the Covid emergency. We acknowledge that the committee knows that artists are not just guardians of our global reputation, but are equally invested in improving the quality of our daily local lives.

As members probably know, the National Campaign for the Arts is a volunteer-led grassroots movement that makes the case for the arts in Ireland. We work to ensure that the arts are on national and local government agendas, including the committee's agenda, and are recognised as a vital part of contemporary Irish life for everyone. In our submission on today's subject, we outlined five elements which are particularly central to the development and prosperity of the arts in diverse localities around the country and to ensuring equitable distribution of arts benefits to Ireland’s more than 5 million residents. We also make some recommendations for action by national and local government. In this brief introduction, I will draw the committee's attention to these.

The first relates to space. The chronic lack of affordable and accessible space for artists to make and share their work has escalated in recent years for many reasons. Alongside the housing and cost-of-living challenges faced by all workers, including artists, the vast majority of whom are low-paid, this reduces opportunities for artists and also reduces opportunities for the public to experience art near to where they live. In our submission, we recommend the protection of, and investment in, existing spaces, the prioritisation of arts organisations when building stock becomes available for civic use and the introduction of a requirement for arts space in all multi-use developments as a condition of planning.

Moving to our second recommendation, to ensure everyone can participate in cultural life, including the 14% with a disability, we need to identify and address barriers to working and participating in the arts. We would particularly welcome the commissioning of research into diversity in the arts and the creation of a diversity task force to address any obstacles. We know we also need to adapt our work practices in light of the climate emergency. Investment and training are needed to bring us in line with European models of climate adaptation. We call on Government to ensure the recently-formed climate unit within the Department is funded to fully support the arts sector in this area.

Finally, we ask that members, in every aspect of their work, continue to invest in placing the arts at the heart of local communities. Invest additional resources programmes by the Arts Council and Creative Ireland, and in arts offices themselves, which are overseeing complex arts and creative programmes, actioning regional and national objectives and affecting real change at a community level. We look forward to working with our elected representatives, nationally and locally, towards to a sustainable, diverse, inclusive arts sector that is accessible and affordable to every person in this country.

Mr. Damien McGlynn

I thank the Cathaoirleach, Deputies and Senators for the invitation to speak to the joint committee. I am the director of Create, the national development agency for collaborative arts. Create's mission is to lead the development of collaborative arts practice, enabling artists and communities to create exceptional art together. We have supported collaborative artists working across all art forms and context areas across Ireland for 40 years.

In our written submission to this committee, we explained the particular characteristics of collaborative arts within the spectrum of what we are discussing, which is community arts. We also detailed the ways in which this practice touches on any number of social issues and policy areas. We are happy to discuss this further but will proceed on the assumption that this context is broadly understood.

Create places a strong emphasis on the durational and relational nature of this work. Those who are experienced in this field understand the crucial relationships that are formed between collaborative artists and individuals or organisations. What is much more challenging is to sustain these relationships over time, largely due to the short-term nature of most arts funding, which is usually directed at projects rather than longer-term strategic work. Our own work in leading the pilot of the Arts Council's Creative Places programme in Tuam over the past four years has demonstrated the value in allocating more time and resources to this deep and meaningful work. Without this kind of stability, we can only ever scratch the surface of what can be achieved through collaborative and community arts.

Specifically on the subject of local government, we would welcome a review of the strategic position of arts within the local authority, building on the alliances created through the Creative Ireland programme in which individuals have collaborated cross-departmentally on planning and delivery. Recognising the breadth and importance of what is currently within the remit of the arts office and officers and giving this the internal status it requires would enable the work to be better understood and supported.

It is also important to recognise the limitations of what is possible in the programming and delivery of any local authority or arts office. Community arts should also be owned by the community itself. We would welcome a shift in approach to a more collaborative model in which local authorities focus on enabling others to operate in this space and facilitate or deliver excellent work, rather than putting the onus on arts office staff to deliver everything for everyone.

The issue of spaces for cultural activities comes up time and time again across the country, including through our work in Tuam. The model of a county arts centre is not without its merits, bringing high-quality facilities to the whole country, but people’s cultural lives are often experienced on a much more local level and the availability of necessary infrastructure is significantly lacking. The need for a network of accessible neighbourhood-level venues with reasonable facilities is clear.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

I thank the witnesses for their statements.

Senator Fintan Warfield

I welcome all the witnesses. Culture begins in the community with family and friends and in school. Cultural engagement is built on community activity. It follows that a crucial point of State engagement is the local authority and local arts. I am delighted that this meeting is taking place and that the witnesses are all here to join us to discuss these issues. A number of years ago, I completed a review of all the arts spending across local authorities. At the time, in 2018, the arts programme spend was significant, at €67.2 million, which was almost on par with the Arts Council investment at that time. There was a significant democratic deficit, with a disparity between various local councils. It was a significant piece of work to produce. Would the Department furnish the committee with the spend per local authority on the arts on a regular basis so that we can assess the disparity of funding across the country? That is an important access issue.

The other issues I would like to raise is spaces. I am glad the National Campaign for the Arts has prioritised this as one of its issues. Mr. McGlynn and Ms Nugent have both touched on it. What can our committee call on the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media for? What capital investment actions can be taken? Is there scope for the Arts Council, under the Arts Acts, to work with capital for the first time to address the urgent need? There is a particular need in this city, I selfishly say. Dublin City Council's audit highlighted that there are 2,500 artists in the city but only 529 artists' workspaces for them. What I hear around the city is that, after housing, artists' spaces are the single biggest issue for their work. I would love to know what we as a committee can call on the Department to do about artists' spaces. The Dublin City Council development plan was welcome but there is still a market failure in some respects with regard to the affordability of that place, if and when it comes onstream.

I also wanted to talk about the North and what Sinn Féin would see as immoral and indefensible recent Tory cuts. What effect will they have on the Department for Communities? If we want to prioritise cross-Border co-operation, is it possible for organisations in the North to engage fully with organisations in the South, given the disparity of funding?

As Ms Nash mentioned, yesterday, we received the most up-to-date breakdown of the national development plan progress on national cultural institutions through Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh. It seems very slow. I know business cases are being asked for again from some cultural institutions. I would have expected progress on those projects to be further along than it is now. I would welcome a comment on that from Ms Nash.

Ms Maureen Kennelly

I will address the workspaces in particular. I am glad the Senator raised it and that the National Campaign for the Arts has singled it out. We are working closely with the Department on it. The Senator can keep raising it in forums like this. As he rightly said, we need to identify spaces. There are 2,500 people identified as artists in Dublin, with just 600 spaces. Our own recent research backs up the Dublin City Council research. That is an acute, urgent need. The brilliant pilot basic income for artists will only grow that problem for us, which is why this is an even more acute need. We need to look after the future generations of artists. It is great that we have that programme. Workspaces are absolutely the next thing to tackle. As the Senator hopefully knows, we are engaged in an exciting project with Dublin Port. We are working closely with the Department on a feasibility study, which has been developed by Grafton Architects. That represents a once-in-a-generation opportunity to transform that part of the city. We believe that model could be followed by other cities. This is about identification of spaces and allocation of capital, whether to the Department or to us. There is sufficient expertise in both to know where we need to spend the funds.

Dr. Rachel Holstead

I very much welcome the comment on artists' spaces and wish to highlight that this is not just an urban issue but is a rural issue also. In some ways it is more so, because the geography, the artists and the communities of which they are part are more dispersed. A consistent need is being articulated to us in the Gaeltacht areas and right across the Gaeltacht areas. Any higher-level policy direction on the use of public buildings, publicly funded buildings, or parts of those for the arts would be very welcome.

Ms Annette Nugent

I am glad this came up and space for art is an enormous issue for artists today as more than one of us, including Senator Warfield and Ms Kennelly said. I recognise that the Government has made huge capital investment in cultural infrastructure in recent times. Temporary and meanwhile use is an area that probably needs to be considered in the mix. Even on a short-term basis, that is part of a temporary solution if nothing else for the artists' workspace issue. As those kinds of issues require conversations with people in planning and insurance, we would appreciate a broadening of the discussion in that regard as part of the solution.

Ms Sinéad O'Reilly

I will address some of Senator Warfield's comments on the spend by local government on the arts. We have been tracking and monitoring local government spend through our partnership with it for many years. At the moment, we see that local government expenditure on the arts may dip and lower from time to time if there is capital expenditure. If we are tracking the revenue expenditure, it is approximately €40 million. There is a disparity across local authorities as the Senator has pointed out. That is not anyone's fault in particular, local authorities are just different to one another whether it is around the rates base or whether the resourcing is there to support that. Where we have been able to support that more is by creating strategic interventions with some local authorities to increase their capacity. More recently, we have been able to increase staffing within local authorities through a special staffing scheme so they can do more and achieve more resources as a result. We are very happy to talk further about those figures, if that is needed.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

And about the resources as well?

Ms Sinéad O'Reilly

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

Good.

Ms Karly Greene

There were two questions for us so I will take the first question about the impact for communities on the budget allocation. We still do not know our final budget allocation but we were asked to prepare and plan based on a 10% cut, which is just devastating. given that our baseline has not shifted in ten years and that there was already a disparity in the per-capita figures. We worked very closely with the officials to demonstrate that an investment in the arts is worthwhile. The Department with responsibility for community is also responsible for housing, social security and pensions, so that is what we are up against. It is through, constant research, evidence, and evaluations of all those amazing projects that we are able to demonstrate that this is a worthwhile investment and that we need much more than what our existing baseline was, never mind a 10% cut. We work closely with officials on that.

There was the other very good question about cross-Border collaboration and the ability of organisations in the North to collaborate fully. The answer is that it is really challenging. One thing that comes up is pay rates in terms of being able to pay people up North appropriately. There are capacity challenges. Our baseline has not risen in ten years and that is effectively a cut in the organisation's funding over ten years. We really rely on partnerships and that is the same across the island where we may be a lesser financial partner but the strategic networks and knowledge we share are really important. Networks can also be an issue with organisations in the North. When there are existing networks in the North and South it works and there are brilliant examples of that from the Abbey Theatre-Lyric Theatre collaboration. However if there are budget cuts and no capacity to build such relationships, it is really challenging.

Ms Mary Nash

I thank the Acting Chair and Senator Warfield. I will work through the questions and if I miss anything they can remind me. I will pick up on the artists' workspaces because that is what a lot of the discussion was about. We are fully aware of the serious issue of the absence of artists' workspaces. The biggest issue of course is in Dublin and Ms Kennelly mentioned the initiative in the port but there are other initiatives. Dublin City Council is bringing forward three or four locations that will become available shortly even as we speak. The Minister allocated €3 million to Dublin City Council for other initiatives so it is looking at where to spend that. Ms Nugent is absolutely right that there are a lot of issues all around the country and at the moment, the Department is engaging with all of the chief executive officers, CEOs, of the larger cities, namely, Limerick, Waterford, Galway, Cork and Kilkenny, about what they want to see or how we could help them provide artists' workspaces.

Moving on to the national cultural institutions, work is ongoing but slower than the Department had hoped. It is easy to say Covid-19 had an impact but it really did. I think there will be a few openings in the National Library of Ireland this year. The art room will open and I know that the Seanad is talking to the National Library about having something there in December. Hopefully the lecture theatre which the Office of Public Works, OPW, is working on with the library will be ready for the Seanad's event in December. The National Archives of Ireland has been tendered and they have been received back by the OPW so there will hopefully be an announcement there shortly. Finally, the Crawford Gallery in Cork has moved ahead as well and I think work might start there next year. We have waited a long time for stuff.

On the local authorities, Ms O'Reilly answered the question about the league table and we local authorities recognise that international investment coming into Ireland looks for vibrant places to build their factories and centres. They will look to the towns and cities where there is a vibrant arts scene, a music scene, a theatre scene, arts centres and all the rest. Most local authorities are fully aware that locations without a vibrant and prominent art scene are not attractive for inward investment. In a way, local authorities are self-selecting and the ones that take care of their arts scene are the ones who get better investment.

Senator Fintan Warfield

We need an Industrial Development Authority, IDA Ireland, promotion.

Ms Tania Banotti

I probably would add that there is a difference between the money going to the local authorities, and I am sure Ms O'Reilly can give specific details on the money the Arts Council gives to a local authority, versus money going into a local area. Ms O'Reilly is probably being diplomatic but it is no secret that some local authorities spend a shockingly low amount and then others, for whatever reason politically, spend more.

Senator Fintan Warfield

It is obviously a reserved function for councillors. It is a local, democratic budget. Certainly in some cases there is scope for the State to help that along. I am probably way over time so I thank the Acting Chair and appreciate that.

Senator Shane Cassells

I welcome the witnesses it is a fantastic array of witnesses from the arts fraternity in Ireland. I will follow on from the theme of space availability Senator Warfield touched on and that was raised by Ms Nugent and others, because it goes to the heart of what we are discussing. I started in politics 24 years ago as a councillor and when I was on the council in Navan, one of the first things I did was to join Navan Civic Trust.

At the time we were battling to create an arts centre in the town. Many had fought that battle before me, but we were successful in creating the Solstice Arts Centre, which is generously supported by the Arts Council and that is much appreciated. We, therefore, have a very elaborate art space.

Dr. Holstead touched on the matter of rural areas. I am interested in hearing from Ms Nugent or Ms O'Reilly about the work taking place in areas without centres like the Solstice. One of the most magnificent things I saw was when we shut College Green to traffic to create an open canvas for arts. I am thinking of how we can try to replicate that with arts offices in local government countrywide. So many good things happen at a city council level, but it is about trying to ensure they also happen, as Dr. Holstead said, in rural areas around the country. What initiatives are happening from a strategic point of view? As Ms Banotti said, many councils spend a lot of money. We can have all the policy we want, but if there is one good person in a council who has a passion for arts and if a city or county manager wants to see money diverted to that area, then they will make things happen. In a county where it is only a tick-box exercise, the strategic plans at a national level do not permeate down. I am asking for good examples of what is happening around the country and maybe others that are not so good.

Ms Tania Banotti

I can give the Senator an example from his area, Meath. Consider what Jackie Maguire, the chief executive, and Gerardette Bailey have done there in terms of strategically thinking about Kells. We all know many artists have ended up in Kells because they cannot afford to live in Dublin. That is certainly an example of a local authority that has thought carefully about how to reimagine Kells, from the Kells Type Trail to Guth Gafa and everything happening in that town. As the Senator says, that is an example where there is a real engagement from the heritage and arts office, planning officer and the chief executive of the local authority. That is what is possible, but maybe Ms O'Reilly can give examples of where there are huge gaps she is trying to fill.

Senator Shane Cassells

I thank Ms Banotti for mentioning that.

Ms Sinéad O'Reilly

I am happy to respond on what happens in places where there is not infrastructure or investment. Through our strategy, Making Great Art Work: Leading the Development of the Arts in Ireland, we committed from 2016 to look at how we spatially invest in places that have not benefited from that type of investment over many years. Thankfully, we are progressing and expanding our creative places programme. We currently invest in 12 different places around the country. They are places that have not had infrastructure. There is plenty happening on the ground on a local level but they have not had the benefit of sustained investment. There are places like Athy and Darndale. There is a mixture of towns, suburban areas and very rural communities such as the west Cork islands. Towns like Athy, Edenderry, Bagenalstown, Tipperary town and Baltinglass are there are as well. alongside Darndale, Ballybrack in south Dublin and Mac Uilliam in Tallaght. We are working with Mr. McGlynn and Create Ireland on the pilot programme in Tuam and we have seen some fantastic impacts there that show what can happen when time and investment is put in on the ground. That project has connected with 51 community groups during its pilot phase and with 32 local businesses. We are also seeing what happens when the investment has not been there. It is easier, maybe, to engage with people who are engaged than the people who are not necessarily engaged and are perhaps more socially, culturally or economically isolated. It takes time to work with people like that and it is what we are keen to do. This investment over a longer time will reach more people in that way.

Ms Maureen Kennelly

Right now we are doing an audit of all cultural spaces across the country. That is part of our spatial policy, but it is also connected to the night-time economy task force. In three to six months, we will have a good picture of what the landscape is like for all available spaces throughout the country. That will help us chart a good way forward.

Ms Annette Nugent

I will add a couple of things that have not come up. Something key is that arts infrastructure is an ecology. I cannot remember the names of any of the reports that say this but there are huge benefits to having artists and arts workers living in an area and being part of the community, rather than being entirely focused on spaces and hard infrastructure. It is a really important point that investment is needed in enabling artists to live in cities, towns and rural communities, as Dr. Holstead was saying. Another key spaces issue is access to public space. To pick up on what Ms O'Reilly said, if we are to reach the people who are not so engaged at the moment for whatever reason, such as lack of money or ease of access to public spaces, then we need access to public spaces. These are often called third spaces. There are no walls for people to engage in artistic and cultural activity that happens in public spaces. It is about being able to enable and support organisations. The work the Arts Council is doing in bringing art out of buildings and into streets and spaces is key as well.

Senator Shane Cassells

On that point, when I was a councillor I was pleased to work with Jackie Maguire, who Ms Banotti mentioned, and the late Shane Donnelly, who was town clerk in Navan. We created a public space artistic scheme for Navan where an artist was commissioned to place a piece of work on every single street. We then created a walking trail with a headset so people could hear the story behind each space. While we are here, I acknowledge Jackie Maguire's retirement after 42 years' service. She was town manager when I passed a budget for the Solstice Arts Centre in 2002. She and I turned the sod on it in 2004 and then we opened it in 2006 when I was mayor. I am especially proud of that project. On that issue of the gaps, Ms Kennelly spoke about available spaces. When the Arts Council has that piece of work done, where are the places around the country that will need to see investment?

Ms Maureen Kennelly

There is definitely a central spine where there is a clear lack. The Esker Arts Centre opened recently in Tullamore and is welcome, but certainly-----

Senator Shane Cassells

Down the midlands.

Ms Maureen Kennelly

Yes, most certainly. I might add the Department did terrific work on public realm provision during Covid. A range of innovative new schemes were brought forward whereby outdoor performances happened. That has engendered a culture of thinking differently about how we present the arts. In the Arts Council we presented something called amuigh faoin aer, which was about how do we deal with Covid, how do we circumvent the restrictions and how do we bring people together. That sense of people connecting through their local place and through the arts is far stronger. We have a very sure foundation upon which to build now.

Senator Shane Cassells

I want to ask something about the ever-evolving expansion of Culture Night. There was mention of filling eight Croke Parks. Maybe I am a bit of a caveman here, but my first-----

Senator Malcolm Byrne

You do not have to go to GAAGO to look at the-----

Senator Shane Cassells

My first engagement with Culture Night was going to Croke Park for the night-time tour of the stadium. That was maybe 15 years ago or whenever it started first. What kind of areas are our guests looking at with a view to broadening out and expanding Culture Night?

Ms Maureen Kennelly

Ms O'Reilly will follow me, but we want to diversify the participation hugely. That is the programme where we are seeing the most diverse participation with respect to both artists and participants and audience, so that is our key focus with it. It is an easier gateway for people to encounter the arts, without a doubt. That is because of the easy accessibility and the connection to one's local place. We all know how proud we are of our home places. That I can go down to Kells and experience so many good things on one night for free is an extraordinary boon for a community.

Ms Sinéad O'Reilly

The tagline for Culture Night is "One night for all". That is as much an ambition as it is a challenge. It is about organisations and organisers of Culture Night events ensuring their events truly are welcoming to everybody and relevant to the diverse communities we have. One of the other things we are expanding with Culture Night is Culture Night Late.

This is working across the night-time economy and, with the support of the Department, we will be able to expand how we can invest in pilot projects for Culture Night that will take place well into the night. When Culture Night moved over to the Arts Council, we looked at some research behind it and we could see that only 9% of events during Culture Night happened after 9 p.m. Therefore, somewhere along the way, the "night" part of Culture Night had been neglected. We are expanding that back. We are already seeing from the initial piloting of events that we are beginning to raise the numbers of young people who are participating in Culture Night. Younger audiences are coming back and the programme is becoming relevant to them. This is allowing the Arts Council to have conversations with organisations that we may not ordinarily have had before. It has been really welcome to do that.

We have a national stewardship group over Culture Night, which includes organisations such as the Heritage Council, the OPW, the Union of Students of Ireland, USI, Arts and Disability Ireland and New Communities Partnership. We are working across a range of areas to make sure that those who are heavily invested in and who feel ownership over Culture Night are at the table and are discussing it with us. We are calling this stewardship because we do not want to take a top-down approach, because the grassroots part of Culture Night is really important to protect.

Senator Shane Cassells

I have one very quick question to ask of Ms Greene. I would be interested in hearing about her experiences of the whole issue of space and how she utilises that when working with the communities she is working with to enhance the number of spaces for artists in different communities across the North.

Ms Karly Greene

It is a similar situation in respect of studio spaces. One of the benefits of the Department for Communities is that it is also responsible for housing. We have recently had a project to look at the availability of all public sector land and buildings across Belfast and the wider area to see if anything is available. This is because the affordability of the private sector is becoming unsustainable. It is short term and there are all the same issues that I am sure there are here also. It is a matter of trying continue to evidence this. There are so many business cases and we know this. It is just that there is no capital funding or budget available. We know what the issues are and-----

Senator Shane Cassells

Ms Nugent raised the point of planning regulations and trying to tie that in. Given that housing in the North is tied to that department, is that an area that Ms Greene has been looking at?

Ms Karly Greene

Yes, as I said, one of the benefits of having a big department is that I am sure the officials can work within the department. We were able to access colleagues in the area of housing for that particular project. However, there is the issue of the lack of an executive. I know this is one of those things that we say over and over again, but it really does stifle the ability to move forward or doing anything new. With no executive, civil servants cannot do any new programmes or projects. Our head of the civil service was speaking to the committee at Westminster to say that it should not make decisions on public funding because Ministers should do that. We can do all of this and have all the evidence, but the challenge is in moving forward and implementing it.

One of our successful engagements has been in the rural deliberative forum. We have a minority, ethnic and migrant deliberative forum as well. The whole idea was to try to get people involved in those decisions. Some of the conversations about access and trying to spread the investment further have been really useful. These are practical things. Sometimes, this is regarding when a programme launches and looking to see if we can keep it open for six weeks rather than four, or looking at whether we can make the language easier for people who do not speak English. It is a matter of people feeling involved in that process. That has been a good way of doing it.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I apologise for being late. I welcome all the guests. I come from Longford where Backstage Theatre has been the home of the arts in my county for 20 or 25 years. Since the theatre was built in a central location, it has contributed to an expansion of the arts through the local musical society. We have a fantastic variety group. I will do a 100 km in May as a fundraiser for the variety group but I will come to that issue later. We have seen the evolution of the stage school, we have the Backstage Youth Theatre and we have the Peelo School of Dance. Having that facility in the county has supported all that, as well as other areas around the county. We have a very strong, vibrant arts section.

It would be remiss of me to not mention the late Fergus Kennedy, the former arts officer in Longford County Council, who passed away suddenly only a number of weeks ago. I want to put on the record of the House my thanks to Fergus for all he did in Longford to support organisations. He worked with me on a number of art projects through the years. I extend my deepest sympathies to his family on their sudden bereavement.

Our local authority has always been very supportive of us developing projects within the county. Only last February, a project was developed with the assistant arts officer, Shane Crossan, as well as a number of others - the Longford Lights Festival. It was projected that the project was to expect 4,000 to 5,000 people over the weekend. It was held in the old Army barracks, which is owned by the local authority. More than 12,000 people visited that project. It was a fantastic success and it was fantastic for the town. It involved school kids, the local special school and so many voluntary organisation to put that event on, to develop the project and the products within it and to utilise the artists within our local community.

With the proceeds of funding, which is to my knowledge from the Arts Council, we want to put that project on again and build on the success of that. However, am I correct that access to funding for a secondary project such as that is sometimes more difficult? I may be incorrect. Yet, it is something we want to build on and expand for next year because it was a fantastic event. I attended on the Friday night. Anyone who was there at the event could see the social media accounts of those in attendance lighting up. That is what drove people to come to Longford. I also said to Shane Cross that I was at Wild Lights in Dublin Zoo, although I probably should not name it, in the previous year. There, I paid a significant amount to go with my family, but I thought this was a better show. It just shows what can be done on a small budget. However, in a small county, we need that funding to be able to avail of that funding on an annual basis so that we can continue putting on that project. Is there a possibility for further funding for a project like that, which is probably unique in the country - I do not think too many of them are held - so that we could receive continuous funding to make into a national event?

As I said earlier, I will be doing a fundraiser for the local variety group, because we have to fundraise the money that is required to put on a show. This is because all the money that is raised in the show is given to charity. Over the past 15 years or so, more than €250,000 has been given to various local charities. However, the fundraising has to take place to actually put it on. It is the same case for the local musical society, which puts on fantastic shows. Eight nights were sold out recently for an adaptation of Footloose. It was a brilliant production, but yet again, they have to fundraise to be able to put on a show and to give us entertainment. Most members of our committee are supportive in getting funding for our pantos etc., at Christmas. I firmly believe there needs to be some sort of a grant scheme in place for musical societies or variety shows. The musical societies are all registered through the Association of Irish Musical Societies, AIMS. There is a similar scheme in another Department under the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, for agricultural shows. It is funded through the Irish Shows Association, ISA. I ask for this to be looked at so that some funding would be put in place with AIMS, so that they could distribute it to the musical societies throughout the country. This would be against expenses they have in putting on shows to make sure they do not have to that volume of fundraising. They are putting in enough time and effort as it is into rehearsing, organising the show, etc., without having to go out and fundraise to actually put on the show. There should be some sort of funding model in place. Those are my first questions.

Ms Siubhán Nic Grianna

Before we address those questions, I would like to acknowledge that we also very fondly remember Fergus Kennedy. I have very fond memories of his days working as a producer in Galway Bay FM, where he hugely supported the arts, before he ever got to Longford. We are sending our condolences from the Arts Council to his family on their very sad loss.

Longford Lights was funded under In the Open - Faoin Spéir, which was a one-off major national programme of events to come through Covid-19. We were very glad to fund it under that. I imagine the festival investment scheme is probably where that might next find a home. Obviously, whoever is involved can be directed to our head of festivals, Karl Wallace. We have heard great things about it.

With regard to the musical society, the main focus of the Arts Council, as everybody knows, is to fund the professional arts. However, our funding of venues such as the Backstage Theatre feeds into what those groups do. In recent times we were able to make some funding available to such societies as AIMS and the Drama League of Ireland to help those groups to access professional expertise that might help them. We are also working with local authorities in looking at other ways we could consider that would help them in ways that are appropriate to the council’s intentions.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

There is a model in other Departments for similar associations. There are more than 100. It is administered through the ISA, in the same way as AIMS. It is eligible for grants only on production of receipts of actually putting on a show so it is completely transparent. However, many people are putting in so much time voluntarily spending months rehearsing and putting on these shows to full houses. I do not believe they should have to spend their family time fundraising actually to put on that show. I strongly ask whether something could be considered. There is a template from another Department on a similar scheme where money is sanctioned. It is administered through the mother organisation, ISA. A similar thing could be done through AIMS. Other members, such as Senator Malcolm Byrne, are involved in musical societies. The work that goes into it and the enjoyment that so many of us get out of it is fantastic. I feel strongly on that point. I would like that to be taken away and looked at. I might come in again later, but I will let the next speaker in now.

Ms Sinéad O'Reilly

I wish to add a point in regard to supporting local musical societies, choral groups and town bands. We are already having conversations both between ourselves internally and with government colleagues and finding new systems of support. There are conversations under way and we would be happy to report back on them. It is really important. When we talk about local and community, those community groups, societies, town bands and choral groups are often people’s very first encounter with the arts, often at a young age, and they can often grow up through them. We must not forget, of course, the professional musicianship that actually goes to support those groups to perform at a high standard. Often, some of our shining stars come through that system of supports, such as Jessie Buckley from Kerry who was involved in musical societies in the county. It is an important sector to support.

Mr. Damien McGlynn

I would like to pick up on a couple of those points. When we speak about the theatre being the backbone of the community, this is what I was referring to in my opening statement. Sometimes we think about arts and cultural venues but actually there is a complete overlap in community spaces. We tend to think we need to build the big county arts centre all the time but actually what people usually need is basic spaces that are affordable and accessible in their own towns. It sounds as though the theatre in Longford that was mentioned is playing that role. We have seen in our work in Tuam and elsewhere that those spaces are really crucial. There is an issue in that they are often quite neglected. The point about capital funding came up earlier. Sometimes there is a lack of clarity about where that can be accessed to look after spaces we have. That happens, as people have said, in both urban and rural contexts. We have a problem with looking after some of the cultural spaces we have, and then trying to chase after new ones, but there is an issue about maintenance and looking after them.

With regard to the point on fundraising, prior to taking on this job, I worked for many years in amateur arts so I know this context very well. When I would meet such groups and they would tell me they needed funding, my question always was: “What do you need the money for?”. The money was never the solution. It was what they needed it for. Often it would come back to this issue of facilities and space. If we can make more of that infrastructure to support culture at a local level, available to people so that it is accessible and affordable it eliminates some of that need. Instead of each group going around shaking buckets to try to raise money, we need to find that collaborative model of how we do that.

The other point is about AIMS potentially distributing funding. Again, I know the people on the AIMS team quite well. I fear for them if they suddenly have to distribute money. The Arts Council will say, as will CREATE, the national development agency for collaborate arts, which distributes funding on behalf of the Arts Council through the arts in the community scheme, it is not a huge amount but distributing funding on a national basis is a really tough job. We need to find the right structures to get the right money and the right support to the people in question. However, I agree wholeheartedly.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

The point Mr. McGlynn made is something at which we are looking at home, trying to find a location. We have the Backstage Theatre and it is putting on shows and it is regularly full. However, organisations need to practice and so on, and that cannot be done on the same night as a show is on, where two organisations are looking for the same place. There is a scheme giving funding to each local authority for derelict properties. Perhaps there is a property that might suit that could be purchased through that fund and made available at a low rate or free of charge to organisations for the rehearsals and so on. They could go onto the main stage for the shows. That makes sense.

Senator Annie Hoey

I thank the witnesses for coming in. It is always great to talk about arts and creative spaces and how we can promote that. I have a couple of questions. I reached out through my own arts network of people I know who work or used to work in community arts and for whatever reason have not continued to do so. We all know far too many of those people unfortunately, whether due to Covid-19 pushing them to grown-up jobs because that was how it was, or because they just could not afford to stay in the sector.

We have the fair wages for artists and artists need to be given a fair wage. An artist can never really be paid enough. One of the points raised was that for many places, grant funding has remained static. That unfortunately is a real-time cut because we have inflation. If we have to increase the cost to artists but the grants have remained static, that means making cuts elsewhere in the system. Grants and funding are tied by where that funding comes from. However, are there any further thoughts on how that can be managed? The primary issue has to be paying people a fair wage. Of course, not everyone’s grant stayed still; some people’s grants increased. However, if the grants are not going to manoeuvre around that space to facilitate that, how can that be managed going forward, if funding is going to remain static? Following on from that there is not a person in this sector who does not bemoan the time it takes to fill out grant applications, and I am not looking at anyone in particular in the room. Grant applications are robust and that is good and important. However, they can take a really long time. There are also such matters as PR and promotion. The grant applications cover the in-the-room piece, the creating piece, but there is a whole plethora of stuff that comes around that as well, which often does not fall into being covered in that space.

Recently a friend of mine told me about an application that included an assurance that the grant application time would be covered within that grant. Another friend has told me about other organisations where sometimes, if the grant is big enough, she will get an extra bit of funding for writing that grant application for the organisation she is working with, but that depends and she does not always get it. There are some examples of it but it is not everywhere. How do we deal with that going forward? Unfortunately, the technical or administration stuff, the public relations and promotion, is now part of the creative process, so how do we see that or will it always be seen as the poor relative and part of the work that has to be done and will just have to be squeezed in somehow? If that piece of work cannot be done well, that impacts on the entire creative process.

We talk about creative spaces. I am thinking of the Richmond Road Studios and my colleague, Senator Sherlock, is doing a lot of work with the people there trying to find a space for it. Sample-Studios in Cork was in an old building but the building was razed to the ground and there is nothing on the site yet. I always feel that art spaces are put into unused spaces until a better value comes along, which is always a developer and sometimes the space ends up being turned into a carpark. That is not the fault of anyone here but how we do shift that perception about artist spaces? Some of our best art has been built out of rubble and we create some brilliant art. Sample-Studios was my favourite place to be when I lived in Cork. It was a thriving hub of what was happening and now it is just a hole in the ground, but it will be turned into an hotel or whatever. How do we convince the powers-that-be that we cannot just have art spaces that force artists to make stuff out of something that is just unused, which is pretty much what a lot of those spaces are, and instead move into purpose-built spaces that have longevity? It is really difficult for artists to move and, again, in the case of Sample-Studios, there was massive downsizing and loads of people lost their spaces. Only a few spaces were then made available and they are located at the edge of the city. This is repeated all over the country. How do we move to not just having creative art spaces until a developer comes along and a hotel is seen as a better opportunity? It breaks my heart when I see those spaces being lost to yet another hotel, shopping centre or whatever goes into them.

Someone said to me they think that one of the best things to happen has been the basic income for artists, BIA, scheme because it allows people to drop their side hustles or whatever else people have to do to stay in the arts sector. Obviously, it is not available to everyone and is really only for that professional piece. I am really interested in early years artists, space and how to allow play because I think play brings the best creativity. When we are only looking at a straight professional system or people who are studying it either in college or in youth theatres, there is that in-between place where, unless you are exceptional, and not everyone is exceptional at the start of their career and lots of people are like that, you do not find that space. How do we find the space to support those artists? I have spoken about this at the committee before.

Ms Maureen Kennelly

In terms of the budget, we will need more. That is not a glib response. Luckily, we have been able to increase our funding to many organisations but we have a cost-of-living crisis, as members will know, our funding was very static for several years, and now we have increased demand because of the basic income for artists. If we are to properly see these people realise their potential in the coming years, then we are going to need a significantly greater budget. We will obviously be talking to Department officials in the coming weeks and months in a very detailed way around that.

On the application process, we are investing, with capital from the Department, in a new platform. It is taking longer than we would like. It will come; it will arrive. In the meantime, this week we have advertised for an access officer because we know it is difficult. We want to change it, believe you me. We want to simplify it.

Senator Annie Hoey

I was not looking at the Arts Council delegation specifically.

Ms Maureen Kennelly

I know, but it is hoped we will see progress on that soon. I completely take the Senator’s point about the time that artists spend. That is another great benefit of a basic income for artists, that artists can now actually devote themselves to something like this.

Workspaces and security form a huge issue. I guess it is by modelling these once-in-a-generation initiatives, like with Dublin Port and the other things Ms Nash mentioned, that communities see how, like what was said about Kells, once we model a town, how it can change and then others will certainly follow, so it is modelling good practice.

On early years artists, we have a pilot programme with them. Much more needs to be done. Our investment in creative schools is really going to start populating that in a huge way. The Senator will see massive benefits from that in the coming years.

Senator Annie Hoey

Great.

Ms Annette Nugent

I will pick on two points the Senator raised and reiterate what Ms Kennelly said and support her. Yes, more investment will be needed. There has been a massive increase in the cost of living in the past couple of years. Notwithstanding the amazing leap the State has made in investing in the arts in the past couple of years, it needs to continue. For many years the sector was probably underfunded. Artists themselves have a history of subsidising their own work and not paying themselves well, which is another issue, and I am not quite sure how we come at that one.

On the space issue, temporary space and space that is not purpose built, and Sample-Studios in Cork is a great example, that is not ideal but a huge variety of space is required. Cork City Council's recent arts strategy has named one of its priorities as providing space for art. The council is going at it in multiple ways and is proposing trying to do something about opening up access to temporary space. It is actually part of the solution as well as purpose-built space and access to housing for artists. We need all of those buttons to be pressed to solve the one issue.

Ms Tania Banotti

To respond to the Senator about money for promotions and project managers, everyone present has a different way of funding, but I can certainly say for the Creative Ireland programme that we do not haggle. Sometimes people apply for public money, they ask for €100 and they are given €50. That is not how we work. If someone says it needs €100 to do that project, that is what he or she is getting.

I can give the Senator a practical example in the creative climate action fund the Minister, Deputy Martin, has launched. That is a €3.6 million fund for artists who are going to communicate the climate crisis. It was made very clear in that brief that there would be funding for a project manager and separate funding for promotion, etc. In that instance, we are certainly doing our best, but it is probably fair to name that stone in this meeting, which is there is probably no one in this room who will prepay someone to write an application. That is the truth of it. Doing that is essentially speculating with your work in the hope that, if you get the grant, you can make up for that launch time, unless the Arts Council does pay people to write applications. I do not think anyone does that. We recognise the in-kind effort being made, but it is tricky for public money to go for the grant application stage, for the writing. However, there may be organisations around the table that fund that.

We recognise the amount of time that goes into applications. It is no secret about the frustration with the length of the forms. All we can do is say that, at the opposite end, if you get the money, and obviously every single project now references the recommended arts rate that Ms Kennelly and the Arts Council publish, no artist is asked to do anything for free.

Ms Sinéad O'Reilly

I will add a point on emerging artists, because the Senator mentioned them in particular. Arts Council awards are not just for the professional, to be clear. They are for artists at all career stages. In particular, our agility award supports artists who are emerging or who may not have applied for funding before. It is a very light-touch and accessible scheme.

The other element of support for artists who are entering into the system of public supports is that there are capacity-building initiatives and professional development initiatives. We fund a number of arts resource organisations which provide some professional development for artists in terms of filling out applications and different career-progressing opportunities they may need.

To circle back to local authorities and local government, because they come up again, something local authorities are doing a lot of is supporting emerging artists on the ground to be able to access funding from either the local authority itself or from the Arts Council or other sources.

Dr. Rachel Holstead

Following on from that, I praise that idea that we need the whole ecosystem of artists, at every stage of their development and in whatever way they choose work within their communities. The community needs that whole ecosystem as well. I acknowledge the basic income scheme as a game changer in the sector right across the country, in every shape and form. In addition, the agility award that the Arts Council initiated is also making a huge difference. It is reaching many artists who may not have made that leap or connection otherwise, so it is important to recognise that.

We are in a position, luckily, that we get to support artists, not financially but in terms of advice and mentorship to gain confidence in filling applications. We understand the challenges. A certain amount of our time is spent advocating with artists to pay themselves properly. This is ongoing. It is improving but the more we can do that, the better.

Mr. Damien McGlynn

Picking up on the Senator’s initial question on how we ensure fair wages with standstill funding, which many of us might be experiencing, it is easy to say we need more funding and we all will say that. Much of the time, the answer we miss is that we need to do less. Across the whole sector, we are bad at that. It is the nature of competitive funding. We have a history of promising to do more with less and that leads to burnout, as was said, and people leaving the sector. There was much evidence of that a few years back when the recession hit. People did not scale back operations; the work just fell on unpaid or poorly paid staff. That led to much of the campaigning we have seen in the past ten years about paying people fairly.

Artists are often just really bad at paying themselves properly - not costing that in. Create Ireland does a lot of work with artists to support them in applying for funding from us and others. We try to instil in them that application writing is part of their work. It is not a separate thing they have to do. It is part of being an artist and they need to see this holistically. It is still tough to get back that time and the payment for that time retrospectively.

On managing funding applications, we have done much work in recent years, particularly on accessibility and trying to make funding more accessible to artists from more diverse backgrounds. The work we do administering funding on behalf of the Arts Council has allowed us to test things. I am happy to say the Arts Council is always receptive to the learning of our experiences. However, it is an issue. We have looked at a lot of the statistics around diversity of applicants. It is one of those things where people will say it is open to everybody, so it is not exclusive. However, we see that there are certain people who do not make it past the first few hurdles. We have done much work to try to see how we can put supports in place for that.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

This was a time to get my notes together but I will go for it anyway. I thank everyone for the presentations. I was tuning in remotely, so I heard much of the conversation and discussion so far. It has centred around the lack of performance spaces in particular. That is what I want to focus on solely for this discussion.

Ms Kennelly mentioned the Ballydehob Jazz Festival. What an enormous success. I am from west Cork, obviously, and Ballydehob is a little village that punches way above its weight. A couple of weekends ago, thousands of people descended upon Ballydehob for its funeral or death parade – a Día de Muertos type idea. It was incredible. It is just not Ballydehob Jazz Festival. In Clonakilty, we have Geata Arts, which is a group I have mentioned here before. We used to have Cloich na Coillte, which was very similar to Macnas. The descendant of that is Geata Arts, which puts on a Samhain, or Hallowe’en, parade every year, which is extraordinary.

The reason I mention the Ballydehob Jazz Festival and Geata Arts and the Samhain parade is that those events involve an enormous amount of collaboration. An enormous amount of work goes into the props, displays and costumes. It is phenomenal. They do so, for the most part, voluntarily. At the very most, their expenses might be covered, such as the cost of the materials. They may have to survive on small grants from local authorities, etc. That is replicated in every town in west Cork. There is a saying that if you cast a net over west Cork, the number of talented artists, musicians and performers you get is incredible. I am sure everyone would make the case for their own area but, certainly, there is something special happening in west Cork. These artists are putting on all of these extraordinary works on a shoestring with very little reward or pay. Some are full-time artists and that is their job. There are street performers there and that is their main gig. There is a constant struggle there.

The one thing that all of these artists, in whichever village in town they are in, have been calling for is a performance space. It is like pulling teeth. The blank walls and lack of effort from the relevant authorities, in many cases, to make it happen is frustrating. I could name the towns. In Clonakilty, we are on our third attempt to get a performance space in the town. We tried to convince the local authority to buy an old shopping centre in the centre of the town but that did not happen. We tried to get it to buy an old bakery, which would have been an incredible arts space for both performance and creativity, but that did not happen. We are now on our third attempt. An old hardware store is closing. We do not hold out much hope because of the blank walls and responses we have had so far from the local authority. I guess some local authorities are lucky in that they might have a director or manager who is proactive in respect of the arts. In Cork County Council, we are incredibly lucky to have an extraordinary arts officer. However, I do not believe he is being backed up by the executive and it is a shame.

It is similar in Bandon, which is the biggest town in my constituency. The Bandon Art Group has been trying for years to acquire a premises for a performance space to no avail. Bantry is home of the Chamber Music Festival, which is an extraordinary success. The Chamber Music Festival committee has been trying again to create a performing arts space. It has identified land and premises. The problem is always getting the backup from the relevant authorities, be it the local authority or the Department.

I am trying to paint a picture of the constant struggle these extraordinary talented artists are facing every day to try to get support for their extraordinary work. It is not where it should be. In fairness, we have talked about the supports the Department has provided and that is all well and good. However, Cork is a big county with many towns and villages to cover. It is just not working at the moment in terms of the provision of arts space.

I just went on kind of a solo run and did not ask questions. I would love to hear the witnesses’ thoughts about what we can do for the likes of the artists who put on those performances in Ballydehob and what we can do for Clonakilty and Bandon. What can we do for Bantry for it to have its own arts space? It would become the soul and centre of each of those communities. The joy it would bring would be well worth it. Acquiring a premises like an old bakery or an old shopping centre is not nothing. There will be a cost and an investment to make it safe, etc. However, it would be such value for money in respect of the return we would get from the joy it would bring, as well as the outlet it would give for young people who are not necessarily into sport, GAA or rugby and the services they provide. I would love to hear, especially from the Department, what we can do to improve investment in those performance spaces. Anyone else who wishes can give feedback on the experience we are having in west Cork. We saw the start of a successful project where the Department of Rural and Community Development is putting money into refurbishing old buildings for e-hubs, which is great. E-hubs and remote workspaces are fantastic. Why can we not have something similar for the arts?

Ms Tania Banotti

We are familiar with Grainne O’Keeffe, the challenges facing the Ludgate hub and the lack of even three full-time jobs to be sustained in Ludgate, because Creative Ireland also supports creative economies. I suggest perhaps inviting in the chair of the County and City Management Association, CCMA, culture committee if this committee has another hearing on this. This is something that has to be driven and the blockage addressed by the chief executive of Cork County Council.

It is one of the things that is probably missing here. We have referred to the role of local authorities but there is no representative of the chief executives present at the meeting. My advice is that the committee should invite the chief executives to appear before it. There is a special committee in the CCMA that covers cultural infrastructure. My colleague, Ms Nash, handles arts capital grants and may be able to add to the discussion.

Ms Mary Nash

I thank the Deputy for his questions. He is correct regarding County Cork. Is Macroom part of his constituency?

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

It is not in my constituency but it is part of the greater west Cork creative artistic hub.

Ms Mary Nash

We allocated------

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Ms Nash is going to refer to the Briery Gap.

Ms Mary Nash

Yes. We have given it-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

We would love to have a facility like the Briery Gap in west Cork but we do not have one yet.

Ms Mary Nash

Many years ago, the Department had capital funding for arts centres. In 2006, we allocated a significant amount to the West Cork Arts Centre in Skibbereen, as well as to other centres throughout the country. That time is gone, however, and the money has moved into a different area. The good news is that there are two funding schemes from the Department of Community and Rural Affairs, namely, the rural regeneration and development fund, RRDF, and the urban regeneration and development fund, URDF. In Limerick, which is not far from the Deputy's constituency, Foynes museum has received a significant sum under the scheme, as has Poetry Ireland in Dublin. That is where one could go for a lot of money. A theatre is being built in Ballymote.

Ms Tania Banotti

It is the local authority that has to apply to the RRDF or the URDF; the Department cannot do so. It has to be part of the chief executive's plans.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

The local authority has to apply but it will not get URDF funding to acquire the premises, which is one of the main blockages in the first place. It is about having the bravery to acquire a premises and then putting forward an application for URDF funding. It is very frustrating. These campaigns have been going on for many years. The artists are performing for free on the street, which is incredible for pundits but not necessarily so for the artists.

Ms Mary Nash

I recently met Sheila Pratschke, the chair of the West Cork Chamber Music Festival in Bantry, and we discussed ways of going about that. There are ways of doing it but they are slow and ponderous. I have been in this job for a long time. I have seen people seeking funding for projects. It seems like it is going nowhere but then, through the course of four or five years they find ways through and, in the end, get what they are looking for. I know that is not very hopeful.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I appreciate the response.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

Finally, we have Deputy Andrews.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach, and I thank Deputy O'Sullivan for his late arrival. I am grateful for the presentations by the witnesses.

We are approaching the summer camp and arts project period of the year. My constituency is diverse; there is an affluent area and a not-so-affluent one. I see very few arts projects in the less affluent areas. Just because I do not see them does not mean they are not there, of course. I have been to the Lir Academy. There is very little engagement with the arts and arts projects for young people and children in flat complexes and more disadvantaged areas. What initiatives are being undertaken to even out that discrepancy?

On another topic, several European countries have brought in schemes aimed at removing the cost of participating in various arts clubs, sport clubs and cultural activities. Iceland and Germany have done so, for example. They have brought in a leisure card and children get €350 to enable them to join an arts or sport club. That has made a big difference, especially in Iceland. Is the Arts Council aware of these initiatives in Iceland and Germany? Would a similar scheme be welcomed by and of benefit to the arts sector in Ireland?

Ms Tania Banotti

It is lovely to see the Deputy. He will be delighted to hear that, on 21 June, Dublin City Council will hold a major event in the docklands for all his constituents, new and old. It will bring together the two communities in the docklands, namely, the newer and wealthier residents and those living in social housing. We hope the Deputy has received his invitation. There will be 600 events for children throughout Ireland on Saturday, 10 June, for Cruinniú na nÓg. Ireland is the only country to have a national day that celebrates the creativity of children and young people. Those events will take place throughout Ireland, including in Ringsend, and we encourage young people to come along. I appreciate they are not summer camps. The representatives of the Arts Council may wish to address that question.

Ms Sinéad O'Reilly

I am happy to pick up on the Deputy's remarks in respect of communities that experience disadvantage. We referred to the Creative Places programme, through which we are targeting places that have had little investment. In the Dublin area, Darndale, the Mac Uilliam estate in Tallaght and Loughlinstown and Ballybrack are in the programme. We are working with local community partners in those areas to see how to build sustained investment and opportunities for young people. There are high levels of young populations and diversity in those areas and the work with those groups takes a community development type of approach to sustaining that engagement. It is early days but it is great that we have three Dublin areas involved in the programme. We are beginning a research programme to consider the impact of that investment over a sustained period.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I thank the witnesses.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I am grateful to the witnesses for their contributions. A small observation in the context of the speakers on each side of the room is that there is a slight gender imbalance on both sides. I thank them all for their work.

The purpose of the work the committee is doing relates to supporting the community, voluntary and local arts sector. There is a clear acknowledgement of the support that is given to the professional arts sector but this is about how we can build up the, which, in turn, will lead to support for the professional sector. Many artists move from the community and voluntary sector into the professional sector. Building on this report, we hope there will be recommendations that will impact on the budget and that Ms Nash and Ms Banotti can go on to discuss and shape Government policy.

To follow on from an issue raised by my colleague, Senator Carrigy, I have a question for Ms Kennelly. There is a significant amount of support for the professional side but, as Senator Carrigy stated, there is a need to give further consideration to recognition by the Arts Council of musical theatre as an art form, as well as how the amateur drama and musical sector can be further supported. This issue was raised when the Irish College of Musical Theatre and other organisations appeared before the committee. I am thinking of people such as Jessie Buckley, Paul Mescal and Killian Donnelly, all of whom emerged from local arts initiatives. There are many other examples, including in other disciplines. Apart from the GAA, amateur theatre and musicals involve the largest number of people nationally. The RTÉ All Ireland Drama Festival has just been completed. It is a huge celebration involving people across the country but the level of support available is limited. I know the witnesses responded to Senator Carrigy on this issue but I am interested in how we can enhance and develop those supports.

Ms Maureen Kennelly

I do not wish to repeat what was stated earlier but it involves looking at things like Creative Places and the invitation to collaboration scheme that we run with local authorities.

They are very much about that community and voluntary sector. Mr. McGlynn referred to AIMS and the fantastic representative organisations but there are so many constituent associations and societies coming out of that.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

If I am to be blunt, the recognition of musical theatre as an art form is something that we would like to look at as part of our report. I get that there are different organisations, but I think it is the concept of supporting the development and, if not the professionalisation, then at least the training programmes to develop them further.

Ms Maureen Kennelly

That is something we did in the last round of funding that we made available to AIMS and the Drama League of Ireland. It was about finding what are the professional supports because we recognise it is a major pipeline of talent that comes through, and the Senator mentioned the obvious names. Of course, it is very enriching for the artistic community in Ireland and elsewhere. Those are the sorts of things that we are going to explore with local authorities to see if there is some sort of scheme available. We all know they cannot be funded on an individual basis. I do not think they are looking for that. We are looking at a more strategic support that would enable them not to have to spend all of that time on fundraising.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I appreciate that. I am conscious of time. One of the other reports that we are currently looking at relates to rural tourism. Ms Nash will probably be aware that her colleague, Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin, has been before us on some of these issues. There is a very serious concern that, particularly in many rural communities, hotels and other forms of accommodation and bed nights are no longer available. It is not necessarily about the impact on the accommodation provider but the knock-on impact on restaurants and other tourism services. We also have a genuine concern about the potential impact it could have on community arts festivals and other activities. Perhaps Ms Nic Grianna would like to comment on this. If somebody is travelling to a community for an arts festival and there is no accommodation available, that has a knock-on effect. Ms Nash and Ms Nic Grianna might like to comment on the impact of this and what supports we can put in place to try to keep that community activity going.

Ms Mary Nash

The Senator is right that there is a concern. In a way, we are on an unknown journey at the moment and we do not know how the lack of bed spaces will impact on festivals. I can imagine that people may not be travelling from abroad but for a lot of our festivals, the patrons are Irish, for example, people who travel down to Wexford, to the Electric Picnic and so on. In any case, there may be other ways or they may just go back home. I do not know if the Arts Council has been doing any monitoring of the numbers. In a way, we will have to wait and see.

On the other issue, I will come back to the Senator with the response from our tourism colleagues.

Ms Maureen Kennelly

It is timely that the Senator asks this because there is a festivals conference happening tomorrow and over the next two days in Galway. I know that is coming up as an issue. I am sure it will be discussed in great detail over the next two days.

To go back to musical theatre, we will be launching our music policy later in the year and there is reference to musical theatre in that. I am sure the Senator will see it in a positive light.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

That is very welcome. Ms Nic Grianna might want to comment.

Ms Siubhán Nic Grianna

I will refer to Dr. Holstead on the issue of accommodation, in particular in regard to local festivals. To go back to the point on access and youth, I commend the Department on the investment and on the provision of a funding programme to Ealaín na Gaeltachta for the past three years to support access for young people to youth theatre, music and amhránaíocht and singing as well. That support has been fantastic. It is a brilliant model and is something that could be looked at and rolled out. Our focus is obviously Irish language-based arts, but it would be a very good model to look at. I will hand over to Ms Holstead.

Dr. Rachel Holstead

We are getting regular feedback from the 20 to 25 festivals that we fund, many of which are in quite high-profile tourism areas. They are experiencing significant difficulties accessing accommodation for their guest artists, as well as for attendees, whether Irish or international, and when they can access accommodation, it is significantly more expensive, so it is coming back to that cost base issue. It is a very real issue. It is potentially limiting the activity of festivals and limiting the accessibility of great festival activity to local communities, so I am delighted it is being raised in that context.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I am conscious that our other report is dealing with that, on one hand, but that there is a knock-on impact on accommodation. I am quite aware of the latter as a result of my knowledge of a number of festivals. The role that arts organisations have been playing in terms of integration and displaced persons has been very important, for example, through the creative arts and creative schools programmes. I was at Bunscoil Loreto in Gorey on Monday. The children there performed “Ode to Joy” in six languages, as well as playing. It was just beautiful. There is a lot of good work but we need to flag it.

I share Ms Nugent and Mr. McGlynn’s concern that we need to highlight very strongly the need for arts spaces in all of our communities if we are going to support the arts, and that goes from visual artists being able to work to rehearsal space for those in the performing arts. It is going to be critical if we want to do this. Dare I say it, while I know there is a capital programme on the arts side, we need an arts capital programme along the same lines as the sports capital programme. We should start to talk about being that ambitious in the same way that we looked at significant additional funding for the Arts Council and so on. I make no apologies for saying it because it is as important for all of our communities. I back significant investment in sports facilities but I think we need to look at a similar type of programme to support both existing and potential new facilities.

This report will be coming out during the budgetary process. For each of the organisations present, although Ms Nash does not necessarily have to answer, if they have one budget priority to support community and voluntary arts, what would it be? Cén tosaíocht amháin a bheadh agaibh don bhuiséad?

Ms Annette Nugent

That is a mean question; it is like asking us to pick our favourite child. For that campaign for the arts, the one thing we would look for the Government to support is the ten points outlined in our prebudget submission, which I believe all of the members will have received at some stage recently; if not, I will resend it to them.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

It is specifically on what we have been talking about today.

Ms Annette Nugent

Absolutely. To pick up on something that was said by the Senator, space for the arts is key for local and community investment. We should really commend the investment that has been made to date by the Government and the cultural infrastructural investment that has happened directly from the Department, from the Arts Council and from local authorities. There has been a huge investment in space. However, in the context of what needs to happen now, the local authorities and the State do not own every building or space. Many times local authorities have no control over what happens to buildings. Therefore, a missing leg in that regard is how to - I am going say something terrible - incentivise property owners and developers to ensure, either by means of a carrot or a stick, that, within any development, space is made for the arts. Here is where I come back to my comment about working with colleagues in the planning departments because local authorities can only enact what exists in planning legislation, so there is probably a piece of work to be done in stretching beyond the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media to other Departments that can have an input in this regard.

Ms Siubhán Nic Grianna

We are very much focused on the ability of the arts centres to be able to plan into the future. At present, funding is approved on an annual basis. It is very difficult to plan as a result.

If the funding was provided on a multi-annual basis, maybe a three-year plan, that would place them in a better position to plan for the future.

I would like to highlight that there has been an increase in funding to those arts centres but, again, the focus is very much on being able to plan forward.

Dr. Rachel Holstead

I will just add to that. The investment in these type of spaces, as Deputy O'Sullivan says, enables community groups and local artistic activities to happen. It reduces their costs and supports them with services. It is important that we are not just talking about spaces here, but we are talking about the human resources associated with those spaces to really bring their true value to their communities. That is where the gold dust is: if we have a space that is resourced with a skilled and experienced team, the possibilities are endless. That is very important.

Ms Maureen Kennelly

To add to what Ms Nic Grianna says, it is about being able to support those organisations. As has been pointed out, they face huge cost-of-living issues. The question is how we are going to get the 140 small festivals that we support throughout the country over the accommodation crisis. We are going to need a very significant uplift in order to make sure that we can support those arts centres, festivals and the other groups and organisations like Create Ireland and Ealaín na Gaeltachta and that we can help them to provide their activity to every community in Ireland.

Ms Karly Greene

Arts organisations are so fundamental in meeting Government objectives in Northern Ireland, as I mentioned in the supporting statement and the submission, in terms of health and well-being, diversity, inclusion, cohesion and all of those things. For us, the priority would be investing in the core infrastructure to enable that. To follow on from the points already made about multi-annual investment, strategic investment is needed as well to uplift our baseline because all of the benefits would then follow.

Mr. Damien McGlynn

My wish list started with multi-annual funding, which everybody else has referenced. We also talked quite a bit about making capital funding more accessible to a range of groups. It is important that it is not all necessarily funnelled through local authorities as it needs to address the many issues we have talked about.

My other wish will not cost anything. It feels to me like pretty much everything we have talked about here needs to be addressed by joined-up thinking that comes from recognising the status of arts and culture at both national and local government. We have heard about great arts officers that are ploughing away doing their work, but it is not recognised necessarily in every local authority at chief executive level.

I have spent years referring to the sports sector as an example. Mention was made of the GAA, which is a fantastic example of incredible infrastructure right across the country. If you go into any village in Ireland there will be a GAA club with a clubhouse, pitch and everything but it is not the same with arts and culture. The question is how we get to that sort of level. There is something for the arts sector to reflect on in terms of how well sports - the GAA is a good example here – understand the ecology of grassroots, amateur professional audience. The issue with the GAAGo Games and people subscribing and participating is that it is all one ecology and in the arts sector we miss a trick on that a little bit and we need to find a way to join that up as well as getting the recognition at higher levels.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

What I have to say is more of a comment. I apologise for being in and out as I have other guests. I thank all the contributors. To follow on from what Senator Malcolm Byrne said, we need some kind of start - tús maith leath na hoibre. Ring-fenced money must be provided by way of capital grants for arts groups to apply for.

To pick up on what Mr. McGlynn said, perhaps there should be more collaboration. Going back 25 years, the GAA just played football and hurling, but now it has evolved into recreation and walking tracks. We could have further collaboration with the clubs, if they have space, rather than having another separate venue. They could all be on the one site if there is collaboration between groups.

In terms of the housing programme, the voluntary sector does tremendous work. I cannot speak highly enough of it. Some very imaginative projects started an award scheme. There are some delightful projects. Where there are quasi-communal spaces there is possibly room for engagement with arts groups as well to get a space in some of them. They are normally for the elderly or for mixed developments but the benefits to the residents would be enormous as well. If people would explore the options there are areas with potential. Money is being diverted big-time into the housing sector, rightly so. There are possible areas of collaboration.

Ms Nugent knows my town, Cluain Meala, the vale of honey, where there is a huge space in the centre of the town. The Junction festival used it quite successfully two years ago. It is an old Superquinn site. God be good to the late Senator Feargal Quinn, he had great imagination. When it was set up, which is not 100 years ago, it was a spanking new premises but it is closed now and it is empty. A number of housing bodies have looked at it but it is bigger than what they can use. It is a huge area right in the centre of the town for other groupings in the community to be involved in as well. There is room for collaboration and thinking outside the box. I agree with the point about the planning laws having to stipulate it. I think it was Ms Nugent that made the point. We must move that way because not everybody plays sport, runs around or plays at the hurling wall. Senator Cassells mentioned about the "mothers and others" playing football. We need to expand the model, which is there if we look at the way GAA clubs and other sporting organisations, soccer, and other sports, share their walking and running tracks with the community. There is an open door there and we should at least explore these options.

Ms Sinéad O'Reilly

I would love to come in on that one because last Friday I was in the Sport Ireland Campus with the Sports Council talking about the new arts and culture policy. One of the questions we were asked was what two words come to mind when we see the place. All I could think of was "invested in", because we could see the level of investment that was going into that amazing campus. We needed a minibus to go around it. There is a fantastic opportunity there.

One of the things we were talking about with the Sports Council is access to the per cent for arts scheme in terms of the new developments on the campus. New elements are being built and the question is how to use that funding well in a way that engages the communities who use the campus, but also their neighbours. From a national level, down to a local level, we can see the ripple effect of how we can build that collaboration. There is a fantastic opportunity to do that, both at a national and local level. I am keen to look at how we might explore that even further.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I would like to get an update from the Department or the Arts Council on a scheme. The Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, has been extremely supportive of the arts. I know it is an area close to her own heart. That is why she is in that role. She has put significant Government investment into the arts. The basic income for the arts scheme is in its infancy, but what was the number of applications for it? What was the take-up and how is it running? Is there an appetite for more?

What is the current status of the planned national theatre on the Abbey Theatre site?

Ms Mary Nash

I thank Senator Carrigy for his questions. The basic income for the arts had approximately 9,000 applications and 2,000 people were selected. The vast majority of people who applied were found to be ineligible. The first payment was in August last year.

Research is going on and everybody who is in receipt of the basic income for the arts is asked to participate and answer questions. There is also a control group. People who applied but were unsuccessful were asked to participate in the research and many of them did so.

A question was raised earlier about paying artists. We all know that artists and performers are asked to do gigs for free - for the exposure, as they say. Over the last couple of years, the Arts Council has done incredible work to kill off that notion. We do not ask other people to do stuff for free.

One of the questions in the research asked respondents if they had noticed a reduction in the number of times as an artist they were asked to provide performances for free. The research is composed of a lot of questions about things like the discipline practised, where people are in the arts, how basic income has contributed to their development and whether basic income is doing any good. The first of the questionnaires was done recently. We will be doing them every six months.

Ms Tania Banotti

It is a very significant financial commitment by the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin. She has spearheaded it all the way to the tune of €35 million a year, on top of the €130 million a year for the Arts Council and the contributions to Creative Ireland and Culture Ireland. The Minister is not here but she should be acknowledged for this. We are the first country in the world to do it.

Ms Mary Nash

The Abbey Theatre was allocated €80 million in the national development plan. It has undertaken a preliminary business case. It is now going into the next stage. There are various gateways in order to make sure the project is up to what it should be and the costs are controlled. We have done the preliminary business case and now we will move to the next stage and then to the final business case. I am sure members will have seen that there was an issue with the acquisition of property. All of the property that is required has been sorted out now.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

What is the timeline on it?

Ms Mary Nash

There may be a spade in the ground in about three years. That is a very rough estimate.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Will the construction then take three or four years?

Ms Mary Nash

Four to five years, I think.

Senator Shane Cassells

Along with Senators Carrigy, Malcolm Byrne and Warfield, I met the directors and toured the Abbey Theatre before Christmas. Being patrons and enjoying a show front-of-house is one thing but seeing the conditions in which the staff of the theatre work back-of-house was eye opening. There are toilets in this building bigger than some of the cramped confines they have to work in. They still do it and produce a national theatre worthy of the country.

Given that we are potentially three years away from a spade in the ground and eight to nine years away from a completed building, how realistic is the figure of €80 million that was quoted? Keeping public expenditure under control for a major project is important. However, we also need to be realistic because the Abbey Theatre has very ambitious plans that will not just serve the artistic community but also act as a beacon for rejuvenation in that part of Dublin, which is badly needed. It will literally be a shining light because the reconfiguration of the theatre out onto the River Liffey is going to draw people in a very positive way to an area that has had very negative connotations in the past. Has an assessment been done to ensure the figure of €80 million is sufficient, given that the project will take eight to nine years to complete?

Ms Mary Nash

I am not sure if it is that far away. Of course we are aware of the inflation that is taking place. There are figures included in the preliminary business case but I am sure the Senator will understand I cannot share them at this point.

Senator Shane Cassells

With the Department and the Abbey Theatre working collaboratively, I hope it goes swiftly because it is much needed. It is great to see such ambition for the theatre on the agenda.

Ms Mary Nash

It is, very much so. We hope to be considering it at a high level with the Minister in our engagements every year and also with the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform in the budgetary process as well.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

We are slightly drifting off because the focus was on community and voluntary activity. It is significant with regard to the Abbey Theatre and the National Concert Hall and it is good that there is a Government commitment to it. Ms Nash and I attended a very enjoyable performance last night in the National Concert Hall. It is good that there is a recognition of our national cultural institutions. It does tie back into the recommendations of our report. These cultural institutions have also engaged in major programmes with emerging artists and voluntary and community groups. At the National Concert Hall last night, we talked about all the schools that had become involved. Everything should tie together. It should not be the case that local community and voluntary arts, the professional art sector and the national venues are kept separate.

It is important to support all those programmes and try in our report to tie elements together and link them back. I want to come back to this because I am conscious of the very specific recommendations we are looking at making. It is also feeding into the tourism report. I ask that we consider some of the feedback we will receive from the festivals about the impact on the tourism and creative sector. We are probably a bit further down the line with some of the recommendations we are making on the tourism side. It is a serious concern. I refer to the point about being able to access rooms and the cost of those rooms. I worry that it will seriously impact on festivals and musical activities, and not just in getting people. If people are passionate about a particular festival, they will travel to the far end of the country to attend. If accommodation is too expensive or unavailable, however, it puts a stop to it.

Ms Mary Nash

Reference was made earlier to the Abbey Theatre not being really a community. All of the cultural institutions have given us lots of material about their activities. The Abbey Theatre's Priming the Canon series creates plays for young people and performs them in schools, libraries and arts centres all over Ireland. With pre- and post-show workshops and online learning materials, the theatre brings classic Irish plays into the heart of the classroom. To date, shows like "Me, Mollser", "Me, Michael", "Mise, Mícheál" and "Me, Sara" have been seen by more than 24,000 young people. There are study packs that can be downloaded from the website of the Abbey Theatre.

Ms Maureen Kennelly

We will be delighted to give feedback from the festivals conference because I am sure it come up repeatedly over the next two days. What we see coming through from communities is the lifeblood of culture. That is why Creative Schools is such a groundbreaking initiative. Someone pointed out earlier that this is Creative Schools Celebration Week so there is a huge range of activity. This level of investment in schools, and the collaboration between arts and education now, is groundbreaking stuff and is tremendously exciting for us.

Our colleagues from the Arts Council of Northern Ireland are here today. People may not know that we jointly fund 14 organisations together on the island. We also work extremely closely with the Arts Council of Northern Ireland, most recently in terms of the Shared Island initiative and with the Department and Department of An Taoiseach. We support our Northern colleagues in terms of raising the level of investment because we think it is absolutely incredible what they do with tiny amounts of funding. A huge number of artists from the South are moving to Belfast and elsewhere in the North so we need to be very aware of the issue of restricted resources.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

Every possible question I might have asked has already been asked and answered very comprehensively.

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

No, east Galway. I thank all the representatives for the work they do in sustaining and nurturing the arts at all levels, be it those who act as ambassadors for Ireland, tour internationally and represent us so well, right down to those who are creating that ecosystem. I think Mr. McGlynn mentioned the word "ecosystem", which is so important if those kind of artists are to emerge in future.

I will make one comment to all our guests. As best they can in the work they do, I ask them to keep focusing on communities, especially through the work of our arts officers in local authorities. I have direct personal experience of working with some extraordinary people in Galway County Council. They do incredible work on a very limited budget with, sometimes, not exactly overwhelming support either from the executive or council members. Many times they are ploughing a lonely furrow in the work they do. When it is done and performed, and there is a very positive response from the general public, people seem to pile in behind them and say, "Well done" and "That was extraordinary". I ask the representatives to sustain that focus.

Dr. Holstead made a specific reference to rural communities and the challenges they face in having a place to stage performances, whether in the visual arts or whatever it might be. The point was made, perhaps by Senator Cassells, that arts capital funding should be put on an equal footing with sports capital funding, which I wholeheartedly support even, as Deputy McGrath said, if it is on a pilot basis initially with a smaller budget. The sports capital budget is now hovering somewhere around €40 million to €50 million. What that would do for performance and exhibition spaces across our communities, particularly rural communities, would be pretty powerful.

I thank all the witnesses for the work they do. It is incredibly important and something we all support.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.52 p.m. and adjourned at 5.02 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 24 May 2023.