Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media debate -
Wednesday, 27 Sep 2023

Engagement with Coimisiún na Meán on the 2023 Work Programme

An Cathaoirleach

We have received apologies from Senator Hoey. First, we must dispose of some committee business before we take our opening statements. Are the minutes of the meetings on 7, 11 and 12 July and 22 August and 13 September formally agreed and there are no matters arising? Agreed.

Today's meeting is with Coimisiún na Meán on its work programme 2023, which is its first. I welcome its representatives to the committee: Mr. Jeremy Godfrey, executive chairperson, Ms Celene Craig, broadcasting commissioner, Dr. John Evans, digital services commissioner, and Ms Niamh Hodnett, online safety commissioner - I am sure we will have a lot of questions for Ms Hodnett - and Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill, media development commissioner. They are all very welcome. This is their first opportunity to come before the committee. There has been so much discussion around media, the future of media, online safety, etc., so I am sure my colleagues will have comprehensive questions and we are looking forward to hearing from our guests.

On the format of today's meeting, I will invite our witnesses to deliver their opening statement, which is limited to five minutes. That will be followed by questions by members of the committee. The committee will publish the opening statement on its webpage. At the outset of the meeting, I wish to explain some limitations regarding parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references made by witnesses to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in public meetings. I cannot permit a member to attend where he or she is not adhering to that constitutional requirement.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

Is mise cathaoirleach Choimisiún na Meán. Tá mise agus mo chomhghleacaithe an-sásta bualadh leis an gcoiste inniu. I thank the committee for the invitation to discuss Coimisiún na Meán's work programme. I start by paying tribute to the contribution members of the committee made to the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act 2022, the OSMR Act, which laid the ground for establishing Coimisiún na Meán and which conferred many new functions on us. The Chair has introduced all our colleagues. Each of us leads different areas of activity for Coimisiún na Meán, but we act as a collective leadership and decision-making body.

We were established in March this year and our overall mission is to ensure a thriving, diverse and safe online and media landscape. In support of this objective, our first work programme was published in June. I will provide a brief update on the key activities undertaken since establishment. A more detailed overview is set out in the accompanying briefing note.

Our primary objective in the area of online safety is to reduce the risk of harmful and illegal online content and to improve the way online service providers deal with it. As members are aware, we have responsibility for regulating the many large online platforms and search engines that have established their European headquarters in Ireland.

I will briefly talk about the EU’s Digital Services Act, DSA, and the functions in the OSMR Act, which are our two main tools. The Digital Services Act is an EU regulation that creates a harmonised set of rules with the aim of ensuring a safe, predictable and trusted online environment. These rules include requirements about how platforms handle complaints about harmful and illegal content and requirements for a high level of protection for children. In addition, very large online platforms and search engines must also address the risk of a wider variety of harms and must have mitigation measures to address them. Coimisiún na Meán has been designated as Ireland’s digital services co-ordinator and we will be responsible for enforcement of nearly all of these rules in respect of platforms based in Ireland. The Commission also has a role in the risk assessment and mitigations I mentioned. We have already started significant preparatory work in relation to these new responsibilities.

On the OSMR Act, we will use the powers set out in the Act to supplement the DSA rules by creating an online safety code that imposes additional and more detailed obligations on video-sharing platforms. In July, we published a call for inputs and have received just over 50 responses from industry, civil society and academia. We plan to consult on a draft online safety code later this autumn. We have not yet made any final decisions about the code, but it is likely the code will apply to videos and associated content and will address matters such as the protection of minors and hate speech directed against groups with protected characteristics.

During 2024, we will also develop a plan for designing an individual complaints mechanism, as required by the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act. However, in advance of this, we will establish a scheme for nominated bodies who will be able to act as super complainants. We will also establish a contact centre so we can provide advice and assistance to users who are concerned about what they see online. Ms Niamh Hodnett, our online safety commissioner, and Dr. John Evans, our digital services commissioner, will have to work very closely together in order that we effectively implement both legislative instruments available to us in the interests of protecting Irish and European citizens online.

I will now discuss broadcasting and video-on-demand. High-quality public service, commercial and community broadcasting and high-quality public service content are core components of a healthy media landscape. The regulatory work on broadcasting formerly conducted by the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland is continuing within Coimisiún na Meán under our broadcasting commissioner, Ms Celene Craig. We have continued to license radio and television broadcasters to provide diversity and additionality for Irish audiences. We also continue to undertake our responsibilities in respect of our public service broadcasters, RTÉ and TG4. Public service broadcasting continues to be an important part of national life in Ireland. It provides trusted and independent journalism and other content important to life. Trusted public service broadcasting requires a trusted public service broadcaster. We very much support all the efforts to restore trust in RTÉ in which the Minister, this committee, the RTÉ board and the new director general are engaged.

Coimisiún na Meán’s brief also includes video-on-demand services. We are establishing a new scheme for determining broadcasting and video-on-demand complaints, and we will update our media service codes and rules to ensure a safe and accessible audiovisual environment.

Media development is led by our media development commissioner, Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill, and includes funding schemes to support the development of content for Irish audiences that reflects and shapes Irish society. We continue to operate the sound and vision scheme that supports the production of culturally valuable broadcast content. We have also commenced a review of Irish language content across the media. We continue to support media literacy activities and we expect to conclude a gender, equality, diversity and inclusion strategy for the media sector by the end of the year.

We have developed a to-be organisation structure and initial operating model and we are engaged in recruitment and organisational change. We have grown from having 40 staff when we were established to having approximately 70 today. We hope to reach 160 staff early next year and will seek approval for additional staff beyond this in due course.

Coimisiún na Meán has a wide-ranging and important mandate. As set out in the briefing note, we have made substantial progress on what we believe is a very ambitious work programme so that we can deliver value for the public as quickly as possible. In the coming weeks, we will commence work on our 2024 work programme and we look forward to updating the committee when it is finalised. I thank the committee for the opportunity to meet with it today. My colleagues and I are happy to answer any questions members may have.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Godfrey, who has given us a very good and broad overview of the organisation. I remind colleagues that their nine-minute slots are for questions and answers.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. Mr. Godfrey said the primary objective in the area of online safety is to reduce the risk of harm and illegal online content. Has "harmful online content" been clearly defined? Is there a clear definition of what it means?

Ms Niamh Hodnett

I thank Deputy Munster and I will take this question. We issued a call for inputs in July in which we asked what type of harmful content we should cover in our first online safety code. As Mr. Godfrey mentioned, we received more than 50 responses to our call for inputs. We are reviewing these responses at present and we will consult on a definition of harmful content as part of the draft online safety code on which we will consult later this autumn. As Mr. Godfrey mentioned, the focus of our online safety code on harmful content will be the protection of minors, incitement to hatred, xenophobic and racist content, and terrorism.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Realistically, when will the public be able to see this clear definition so they can-----

Ms Niamh Hodnett

They will be able to comment on it and we would welcome public responses to our consultation on our draft online safety code later this autumn. It will be-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

When will people see the clear definition of what harmful content is?

Ms Niamh Hodnett

It will be contained in our draft online safety code in the autumn.

Deputy Imelda Munster

In the autumn.

Ms Niamh Hodnett

Yes, in that consultation.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Realistically, will Coimisiún na Meán be able to supervise this and monitor it? How will this be done?

Ms Niamh Hodnett

In the autumn we will consult on our draft online safety code. When we receive responses to this we will adopt a binding online safety code. Once this binding online safety code is in place, it will be compulsory to comply with it, as set out in the legislation. As set out in the Act, there will be significant civil, administrative and financial sanctions for failure to comply with it. It can attract fines of up to 10% of relevant turnover or €20 million, whichever is the greater. There are also criminal sanctions, including in particular circumstances for senior officials in those platforms for breaches or contravention.

Deputy Imelda Munster

The financial sanctions would be Coimisiún na Meán's means of enforcing it.

Ms Niamh Hodnett

We will be following Part 8B as inserted by section 47 of the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act to enforce the binding online safety code. In addition to regulation, there is also important education or media literacy awareness required for online safety to be effective.

Deputy Imelda Munster

What relationship will Coimisiún na Meán have with the Data Protection Commission, particularly on the use of personal data?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I will answer this question and I will ask Dr. Evans to say a little bit more about the supervision capability we are building. The Data Protection Commission and Coimisiún na Meán have distinct roles in enforcing different legal obligations but there is some overlap. Some of the same facts might cause concerns under data protection legislation as well as under our legislation. At present we have informal contact with the Data Protection Commission. We also have a digital regulators group where we speak about how we might co-operate better. As we start to operationalise we will speak to the Data Protection Commission in particular and to the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission about how we might put in place co-operation arrangements on particular cases.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I know it is early stages but when will groups and the public be able to see this in black and white?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

Early next year we will have two things in place. One will be the online safety code that Ms Hodnett spoke about and the other will be our responsibility to discharge the digital service co-ordinator's role. We see ourselves at present as being in start-up mode and we will be in operational mode from the beginning of next year. One of the things we are doing is building up a team of people who will be involved in the day-to-day supervision of the platforms. I will ask Dr. Evans to say a few words about this.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I can come back to that. Time is of the essence and I have other questions. Meta's internal research on algorithms showed that 64% of all extremist groups joined because of recommender tools that led to online sharing. How will Coimisiún na Meán be able to stop the media giants using algorithms to create echo chambers online?

Ms Niamh Hodnett

The amplification of harmful content online through algorithms or recommender systems is one of the issues we called out as a serious issue for online safety in the call for inputs we published in July. As part of this call for inputs, we asked whether this is something we should address in our online safety code and, if so, how best to do so. I will turn to my colleague Dr. Evans to explain how it is addressed in the Digital Services Act with regard to the obligation on very large online platforms to offer an alternative recommender system. For example, chronological feed is an alternative to other forms of recommender systems. This has been in place since the end of August under the Digital Services Act.

With regard to our own online safety code, one of the issues on which we consulted is enshrining a safety by design principle to be approached in the use of launching any new product service, algorithm or otherwise. We still have to consult on our draft online safety code. We have not yet finally adopted it. This is all subject to consultation.

Deputy Imelda Munster

It is not very clear how Coimisiún na Meán can stop this.

Ms Niamh Hodnett

It could be one of the binding obligations that could form part of the online safety code.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Am I correct that the codes are due towards the end of the year or early next year?

Ms Niamh Hodnett

That is correct. We are consulting late in the autumn and will adopt it after that. I will hand over to Mr. Evans on the DSA.

Dr. John Evans

The DSA has a general provision that illegal content online can be taken down. Individuals such as me or the Deputy or trustflaggers as they are called under the Act can call out illegal content to the platforms directly. The platforms will then have to assess that content and take it down. For example, some of the extremist content might fall under the category of illegal content and would be covered by that provision.

Deputy Imelda Munster

The update supplied to us states:

Initially we will not be in a position to handle formal complaints about individual pieces of online content but we will have a limited capacity to provide direct assistance in cases where there is an urgent need to prevent severe harm. We will develop the necessary criteria and processes during the early part of 2024.

Does "the early part of 2024" mean there will still be limited capacity or will there be full capacity to do the task that this was set up to do?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

We will have full capacity to discharge the DSA and enforce the online safety code. As the committee will be aware, there was a lot of discussion about the individual complaints mechanism when the OSMR was being discussed. An expert group recommended we should have a year of experience of operating the online safety code before we design an individual complaints mechanism. We intend to follow that timetable but we are also quite conscious that even before that, there may be occasions where there is a significant amount of immediate and ongoing harm being caused. We would want to be able to take action even before we have the individual complaints mechanism. That is what we are referring to in the briefing note.

Deputy Imelda Munster

That is okay. I thought it was a bit ridiculous.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

That will be in place by next year.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I have a couple of questions to run through. The sound and vision scheme excludes news and current affairs but there was a recommendation from the Future of Media Commission that it be changed. Has that been implemented? The work programme contained a commitment to complete a review of provision of Irish language media services. Can I have an update on that and an update on the gender equality, diversity and inclusion strategy, and a date for publication of that?

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

In regard to the sound and vision scheme, the answer is "No". The media fund that would enable us to incorporate news and current affairs has not yet been put on a statutory basis. That said, two media schemes, a local journalism scheme and a court reporter scheme are being set up on an administrative basis. There is €6 million ring-fenced to fund both of those schemes next year.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is there an intention to implement this?

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

There is an intention to establish the sound and vision fund into a wide-ranging media fund that would incorporate current affairs going forward.

Deputy Imelda Munster

When is that expected?

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

It is really a legislative matter to do that rather than Coimisiún na Meán.

The other question was on the Irish language brief. We have begun work on that this month and hope to complete it by this time next year, roughly. The Future of Media Commission recommended 18 months so I hope to do it well within that timeframe to look at areas where Irish language media can look at improvements, areas for working together more and to ensure that it serves the needs of the Irish-speaking community. That is the expectation and there will be a good deal of engagement with stakeholders.

On the gender equality, diversity and inclusion strategy, realistically the number one priority for media development this year is to get that strategy up and running and published. We expect to publish it in mid-December.

Senator Shane Cassells

I warmly welcome all the members of the Media Commission. Their work is needed now more than ever so I wish them well in their work. I hope they are successful. The commission's establishment is fantastic and it is fantastic to see its members here today. It is a hugely important component for Irish life, Irish society, Irish democracy and the Irish media. Jim Morrison famously said whoever controls the media controls the mind. In a week when Rupert Murdoch has eventually stepped down at the sprightly age of 92 and handed over to his son, I reflected on how the empire he left behind, starting off with the print media with The Times and The Sun and such people as Rebekah Brooks and how they manipulated the media, and now we have a scenario where it is tech giants that control what is consumed. In particular, it is poignant we are meeting as the $1.7 trillion dollar entity of Google celebrates its 25th birthday today. We have simultaneously a scenario where a landmark court case is under way in the USA with the US Government taking on Google. Google has wielded such immense influence over commerce, public discourse and entertainment and woven itself into people’s lives to an even greater degree. I ask Mr. Evans and Ms Hodnett to start with the fact that these companies have a significant presence in our country. The new commission has a battle holding these companies to account. What are their hopes, or fears, in holding a $1.7 trillion company to account when it controls the news and the discourse that young people in access, and the impact that has on the spread of disinformation?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

The Senator's question is: how do we feel about regulating these behemoths? We feel a big sense of responsibility because we are regulating them on behalf not only of the people of Ireland but also the people of Europe. We feel that we have some effective legal tools to regulate them with both under European law and national law. We feel we have been given approval by the Government to recruit a sufficiently large team to be able to do that. We do not think it is going to be easy. We will need to be fearless and persistent in monitoring what they are doing, setting rules, encouraging them to comply and taking enforcement action when we need to. We are also fortified in being part of a European network. The European Commission and our counterparts in other member states are all behind us in doing that. Of course, these companies have market power. The Senator alluded to the case being taken in the US. As well as our responsibility in regulating them for harmful and illegal online content, there are other legal tools for regulating the market power they have under the Digital Markets Act, which is the European Commission. We see the big task-----

Senator Shane Cassells

The point on market power is interesting because we had many of the publishers and news organisations before us over the course of over a year to discus the online media Bill. One of the points they consistently made was the use of their information and news gathering, which was then monetised by others for which the news organisations received no income. We have seen in August this year how Meta began ending access to news on Facebook and Instagram in Canada because the Canadian Government took a step to legislate with the Online News Act and provided for a scenario where it was going to require the Internet giants to pay the publishers, so Meta simply ended news access. This is the space we are in now in terms of controlling the media. Again I will go back to my question. I will ask Mr. Ó Domhnaill about media development in the context of that challenge, where the biggest online giant in the world simply ended news access.

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

One of the areas where media development can step into that role is where it is really struggling, that is, local media. In the past few years, we have learned that when people lose trust in local democracy, the next logical step is to lose trust in national democracy and, therefore, journalism schemes hope to ensure that there is increased coverage of local democracy, including local authority meetings, local policing meetings and so on. That is available on a platform-neutral basis. It will be open to all types of media to apply for those schemes.

It is the same for court reporting. Justice not only has to be done; it has to be seen to be done. Sometimes, not all, but some, local outlets may not have the resources to cover that fully. We expect to be able to step in there. These schemes are the first step and they will expand, and there will be more schemes over the years ahead as well.

That is where development can step in.

Senator Shane Cassells

I compliment Mr. Ó Domhnaill on that. It is a scheme that has worked well in the United Kingdom, where the former media secretary introduced a similar scheme.

There are two issues. First, local newspapers might not be alive to be able to avail of it. When we introduced a 0% VAT rate on newspapers in last year’s budget, as the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, was on his feet announcing it, Independent Media owner, Mediahuis, announced the closure of the Fingal Independent, which I worked for and was part of the Drogheda Independent stable. When local papers have been here - Local Ireland – they said they cannot monetise the online space. It is a different animal from national media, which has also struggled to monetise. Newspapers are dying. You cannot find a shop around here to sell you a physical newspaper. The online space has been very difficult for them as well.

On the issue of the fund, John Purcell, chairman of Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, met with us last week. He is anxious about when that fund will be available. It would be important that it is available to access in the context of the local, European and national elections next year. He has been told it will not be available next year.

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

Regarding when the schemes will come on board, Coimisiún na Meán is up and ready to go with them. We are in the process of drafting them. At the moment, there is an application under EU state aid rules to be applied to it, so it is out of our hands essentially until that comes through. However, when it does, we expect to begin the consultation on these schemes by the end of the year and get them up and running as soon as we can. I have met local paper representatives. I am aware of the pressures they are under. We are conscious of it and we are doing our utmost to get the schemes up and running as fast as we can. We will have other schemes. For example, a digital transformation scheme is due to come in as well. I expect that to help as well.

Senator Shane Cassells

I appreciate that but I hope that we still have platforms to cover courts and local councils. As was pointed out to us, there was no local newspaper in the area where the Grenfell Tower scenario happened. The planning decision on the tower was taken at a council meeting. There was no local paper in the area to cover that event.

The July Reuters report into trust in the Irish media showed there was a fall again this year. Interestingly, the top four most trusted news sources were RTÉ at 71% - it would be nice to see what that stands at now, given what has happened since - The Irish Times at 70%, local newspapers, interestingly, at 68%, with local radio at 70%. That is important. I make the point again that at the time "The Ryan Tubridy Show" in the morning was attracting 300,000 listeners, local radio had more than 750,000 listeners. This is in the same slot from 9 a.m. until 10 a.m.

I refer to RTÉ, its funding in terms of public service and the witnesses’ views on a media fund. Do they believe that a central media fund should be established, as has been spoken about with regard to reform of the system?

Ms Celene Craig

I wish to put on the record that the events in respect of RTÉ as they unfolded over the past few months have been a source of great regret for Coimisiún na Meán. We are very concerned about public trust. It is absolutely vital to have a trusted public service broadcaster because of the contribution it makes to democratic discourse.

On where we stand with RTÉ now, there is a need to stand back in the light of the events. Once we have seen the outcomes of all the various reviews that are under way, both by the Minister and by the RTÉ board, we need to look at what the strategic plan and view is regarding what kind of public service broadcaster we want, how we achieve it and what is the appropriate funding model going forward. We are convinced of the vital need to have a public service broadcaster that delivers impartial and trusted content that Irish citizens can rely on.

Senator Shane Cassells

There are two issues here. One is the issue of content. I think RTÉ does an exemplary job in providing content and has done so for many decades. There is then the issue of governance. What are Ms Craig's views on the Taoiseach’s comments on splitting RTÉ in two - a commercial wing and a public service wing?

Ms Celene Craig

As I said, it may be a contribution to a wider discussion on what that future might best look like. There are complexities in splitting commercial and public service activities, not least because many public service activities actually make quite a significant financial contribution to the public service mission. There would be some complexities. We need a long-term vision and plan for the structure and funding of public service broadcasting, setting out very clearly what we expect. RTÉ has a clear mission, but it is about what the best model is to deliver that in the longer run. Clearly, funding is a key element of all of that.

Senator Shane Cassells

I have a final question.

An Cathaoirleach

Very final.

Senator Shane Cassells

On the work programme for quarter 1 next year, there is a section on sports broadcasting and sports stakeholder consultation and a strategic plan for sports broadcasting. Can Ms Craig elaborate on that?

Ms Celene Craig

I will pass to my colleague.

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

Again, it is in light of a recommendation from the Future of Media Commission report. It is twofold, essentially. We will align for the gender equality, diversity and inclusion strategy to make sure there is adequate coverage in sports broadcasting of those areas. In addition, Healthy Ireland and Sport Ireland have an initiative as regards getting people to run, jog, swim and cycle more and it is looking at where we can get sports broadcasting involved in that as well. We hope to kick off that strategy in the early part of next year.

Senator Shane Cassells

Okay. The-----

An Cathaoirleach

I have to move on, sorry.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I welcome the witnesses and wish them every success in their respective roles. They are doing an extraordinarily important job on behalf of the Irish people. It is great to see Coimisiún na Meán in place and finally having the legislative backing to do the work it needs to do.

I have a couple of observations that might prompt questions. Coimisiún na Meán has an exceptionally wide remit in what it is required to do and what it has set out to do. I would categorise that into two areas. One is the regulation of social media, which I will deal with in a minute, and the other is the development, protection and nurturing of public service media and broadcasting in Ireland. Internally, which does Mr. Godfrey prioritise? Does he afford more priority to one of those roles than the other? What is his overarching ambition in what he is setting out to do?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

They are of equal importance to us. The online environment and the traditional broadcasting environment complement each other. They both play an important role in people’s lives and in supporting democratic discourse and so on and so forth. I have two commissioners for each side of the house. As we build up our resources, there are some issues in common. For example, when we try to think about the interests of children, we need to think about it both online but also in terms of how it is reflected in media regulation as well. Where we have synergies between the two types of activity, we will capture them. I would not choose.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

They are of equal priority.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

It is like when my children ask me which one I prefer. I always say I love them both equally.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

In his opening contribution, Mr. Godfrey outlined that it is his ambition to ensure the development of powerful content for Irish audiences. I am a former Minister of State with responsibility for our wonderful diaspora throughout the world. That community has been consistently neglected for a very long time. We are in a world where we now have instantaneous communications. For example, my son living in Philadelphia regularly tunes in to watch hurling matches in east Galway and does so with great success because of a platform that has been developed. We are only scratching the surface of what is possible for the global Irish community, building through the medium of broadcasting. Mr. Ó Domhnaill and the team at TG4 have done some really interesting work in this area. I know from talking to Irish communities worldwide that they see TG4 as being to the forefront of that community-building endeavour. Has Mr. Godfrey had any thoughts about how we might nurture and support the 70 million people worldwide who claim Irish identity? It is a powerful cohort of people. We need to be cognisant that they are crying out for content which they can trust and which will engage them and make them confident in expressing their sense of what it means to be Irish in the 21st century.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

The Future of Media Commission's definition of public service content highlighted bringing not only the nation together but bringing the nation and the diaspora together. The Deputy's point is very well made. Once we get high-quality Irish-language content and high-quality content about Ireland for the audience here, then that can also be used for the diaspora. When I joined Coimisiún na Meán, one of the things that struck me was that Coimisiún na Meán had been one of the funders, through sound and vision, of An Cailín Ciúin. It was a huge inspiration for me. Not only are we here proud of that film, but the members of the diaspora are also proud of it. It has really positioned Ireland in the minds of many people around the world. All those points are very well made. As we examine the public service commitments and strategies of the public service broadcasters, they will be in our mind.

Ms Celene Craig

I might add that local radio does a huge amount of work in reaching out to its local diaspora abroad. Many broadcasters on the west coast of Ireland have had long-established links with the diaspora, particularly relating to sport and local news. As Mr. Godfrey said, the stronger the media environment is here, the more they will have to offer members of the diaspora who want to stay in touch with the Irish media.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

That is very true.

I happen to be unusual in thinking that in general social media has been a force for good. Do not shoot me. I think it is the most recent expression of our deep desire as a species to communicate with one another. We have been communicating with one another from when we sat around campfires trying to develop early language through to speaking to Neil Armstrong on the moon through to the mobile phone I have here, with which I can communicate instantaneously with anybody in the world I choose to seek out. Social media is the most recent and powerful expression of that. I accept there are entities and people who manipulate it for their own interests. We need to be careful in ensuring that we protect as best we can against that.

With the bottomless resources available to them and with the ubiquitous nature of how they find themselves in our lives every day, to an extent we are tilting at windmills to think we can somehow force the social media companies into a place where everything is wonderful on social media and all of the content we see is of the highest standard and can be trusted. I do not think we will ever get there. It is stupid to consider that is even an option. However, it is vital to educate our young people to be able to discern the difference.

Coimisiún na Meán may have already looked at this. A key element of its work in ensuring that the consumption of social media does not bring the harms to society that it has the potential to do is educating our young people to have the critical faculties necessary to dissect, disassemble and be able to identify what they can trust and what they absolutely should not trust. Has Coimisiún na Meán considered collaborations with the Department of Education or the education and training boards, ETBs? That is an important element of protecting future generations in how they analyse and consume social media. Social media is not going away. It will become ever more present in our lives. That is something we need to consider.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I might comment and then ask Mr. Ó Domhnaill to talk about media literacy activities. We would agree with the Deputy that the online world is a force for good. There are many good things about it. We want to make it safer so people can enjoy the good things about it. The Deputy spoke about the online giants having bottomless resources. We think it is important they use some of those resources to take more responsibility for making things safer. We would agree with the Deputy that we can never reach 100%, but things can be better and it is important that we make them better. We also agree with the Deputy that media literacy education is important. We can place some obligations on online providers to do more, but Coimisiún na Meán has a very extensive programme of media literacy. I will ask Mr. Ó Domhnaill to talk about that.

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

Media literacy is probably one of the most cross-cutting areas within Coimisiún na Meán. It fits into online safety, media development, broadcasting and everywhere else. It is vital to what we are doing. We have a programme of awareness starting in October entitled Be Media Smart. It links in with the UNESCO week of countering disinformation and so on. There will be various outreach programmes, online disinformation seminars, roadshows around the country and so on to talk to people about the importance of media literacy. Everyone knows who owns X. People often know a certain amount about where we are getting our news. It is also a question of educating people on more than that - the next steps beyond that when someone clicks two or three times and where they are going. Why are the algorithms bringing people there? It is a big piece of work. My colleague Ms Hodnett has had many meetings with the Department of Education about Webwise and so on.

Ms Niamh Hodnett

I might step in there briefly. This morning, I attended Webwise's launch of its new second level resource called the Respect Effect. This builds on the good work done by the Department of Education and Webwise in primary schools. It is now in second level. The Respect Effect new resource is teaching the essential media literacy tools and digital civility tools of respect, empathy and resilience. We all have much to learn beyond the junior cycle on those key tools we all need to navigate in the online world to allow a safer and more enriched experience.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Ar an gcéad dul síos, cuirim fáilte roimh ár bhfinnéithe agus gabhaim buíochas leo as ucht a gcuid oibre. This committee is very glad that Coimisiún na Meán has hit the ground running. I am very grateful for Mr. Godfrey's comments about the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act 2022 and our role. We want to see Coimisiún na Meán doing exactly what it is doing. How many staff does Coimisiún na Meán have? The report indicates where it intends to go. Are there any posts it is finding difficult to fill owing to skills shortages?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

Our current staff level is about 70. I will give an overview of where we want to go. We will build up a supervision division with teams having day-to-day oversight of particular platforms and resolving issues with them. We will have a policy division looking at issues like hate speech and protection of minors. We will have a media landscape division looking after broadcasting regulation and the media development side.

We will have a user engagement division with our contact centre - our user support. We will have data analytics and digital forensics. We will have all that kind of stuff.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

That is a big organisation that covers a lot. We know it is going to be powerful. Roughly how many staff will there be and is Mr. Godfrey finding difficulties in recruiting them in particular areas?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

We have authority to go up to 160 staff. We think we will need to be bigger than that and have had positive signals that we will be allowed to do that. In terms of recruitment one of the things we found was that people are quite keen to come and work for us. The mission of Coimisiún na Meán is seen as being very meaningful. It is one of the reasons the commissioners put themselves forward for the posts. We are currently engaged in a recruitment process to recruit the kind of senior management layer, that is, the leaders of all of those sections within those divisions. We had a quite overwhelming response and I think-----

Senator Malcolm Byrne

The commission has recruited somebody from this committee so that is obviously a good sign.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

It is still early days but the signals are-----

Senator Malcolm Byrne

They are positive.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

-----so far so good.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I will talk specifically about the sound and vision fund. It was referred to earlier and is crucially important. It has been reported that licence fee income for this year is projected to be down by €21 million. The sound and vision fund accounts for 7% of the €21 million. By my calculations, that amounts to €1.47 million. Will the total income for the sound and vision fund this year be down by roughly that sum?

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

That is correct.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

It will be down by €1.5 million. That will obviously have an impact on what we were talking about for other broadcasters, including local radio, as well as the independent production sector.

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

Yes, but supplementary funding has also been made available this year from the Minister for various other rounds that we are undertaking for the community sector. That round is under way and we will have another round in October-November of €6.5 million. We get roughly €14.5 million from the 7% net of the licence fee. This year, if that continues, the figure will be something above €13 million. The amount of money available to disburse should be higher than that because of supplementary funding.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

That is being supplemented. If this were a broader policy decision, would Mr. Ó Domhnaill be aware of the context of the discussion? If we move to abolish the licence fee and Coimisiún na Meán is asked to essentially be the arm's length body to administer the full public service broadcasting fund, it will have the capacity to do so?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

If there was a major change to our responsibilities, there would obviously need to be some changes to our resources but we would be up for whatever job we are given.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

That is fine. As regards progress on the content levy or European works levy, I understand that it is within the programme. This levy will be critical for the independent production sector.

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

Work on the content levy has started and we recently went out to tender. That process has now ceased and we are starting work on research on what a levy might look like, what shape it might take and what it might take in. We hope to have that work completed early next year. The Future of Media Commission report recommended a timeline of late 2024. I expect we will have it well before that. That is my hope. I am aware, from meeting independent producers along with Ms Craig, that they see a need for this levy to come into place. There is a feeling that it is happening in other European countries-----

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Yes.

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

-----and that we need to get cracking on it. From out point of view, we are getting cracking on it and it is under way.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I very much appreciate that. The committee shares that sense of urgency.

Online safety issues and the online safety code are critical. I have no doubt a very good code will be put in place. I think our challenge is around enforcement. This will be around dealing with misinformation, disinformation and Coimisiún na Meán's responsibilities both under the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act 2022 and the Digital Services Act. Yesterday, the European Commission published its report and has been requiring the platforms to provide information on misinformation, disinformation and the action they have taken. Action can be taken under the Digital Services Act. The big concern I have is around Twitter, or X. As the witnesses will be aware, X did not provide the necessary information to the European Commission. This committee recently tried to contact X or Twitter to get its input on various issues and it has not been forthcoming. Our understanding is that X got rid of its public affairs team, essentially, in Ireland. What has been the engagement between Coimisiún na Meán and X specifically? My second question is on broader enforcement. It is fine that the information is being reported but it is about being able to take action.

Ms Niamh Hodnett

Since Coimisiún na Meán was established, it has been meeting with all of the platforms, including the platforms the Senator discussed. We have had good engagement from all of the platforms, including the platform the Senator just mentioned. We have had ongoing engagement with its public affairs team and we have had good engagement to date. Obviously, these are introductory meetings that we have been having with all of the platforms. When we adopt our online safety code it will be binding and at that point in time, we will move to enforce that using our tools under the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act 2022. In the interim, we have been consulting all the platforms on a range of matters and have had good engagement and responses both to our call for inputs and also to our designation of video-sharing platform services as a category of services to which the online safety code will be applied. We have adopted that decision and our category designation of video-sharing platform services. That designation is now in place and the next step will be to adopt the online safety code and that can be applied to that category. I will hand over to my colleague Dr. Evans to respond on enforcement under the Digital Services Act.

Dr. John Evans

The very large platforms, including Twitter, are already subject to the full force of the Digital Services Act. Other intermediaries will be subject to the Act come 17 February next year. As the Senator will be aware, there are many provisions in that Act. A straightforward one to explain is that there will be a right for users and, as I said earlier, trusted flaggers to make platforms aware of illegal content and there are processes behind that to ensure it happens in a particular way.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I accept that but I am concerned because the European Commission's Vice President, Ms Vra Jourová, yesterday indicated that it is intended that the Digital Services Act will be used in these circumstances. There is a requirement at EU level for Twitter, or X, to provide reports on misinformation and disinformation and the European Commission has identified it as the platform with the largest ratio of misinformation and disinformation. We know, for example, that approximately 20% of accounts on Twitter are fake. Given the critical role for Coimisiún na Meán as a regulator, if this is the approach that Twitter, or X, will take with regard to the European Commission, what certainty can we have that Coimisiún na Meán will take action if a similar approach is taken here?

Dr. John Evans

This is a priority for us. We have not yet had any indication that any of the platforms are not co-operating with us. To note there are shared competencies, as I am sure the Senator is aware, between the European Commission and ourselves and other digital services co-ordinators across the EU. The Digital Services Act is a network of enforcers. As I said, some sole competencies are for the European Commission, including in the area of systemic risks to society which could bring in issues around misinformation, disinformaiton and so on. The platforms will have to decide individually what their approach to that will be but if it turns out that, following supervision by the European Commission, that their approaches to those issues are not preventing the harms we need to be prevented, the Commission can then step in and require the platforms to change their internal practices.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

To speak about the political environment, which is related, Dr. Evans will be aware that we are facing local and European elections next year and a general election in the next 18 months. This is not a uniquely Irish issue. The Federal Election Commission in the US is taking a much stronger role in this area. Coimisiún na Meán will have a relationship with the Electoral Commission, particularly in a political context. Misinformation and disinformation and increasing polarisation and support for extremist groups online area a major concern for us from a political perspective.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I will describe our role regarding electoral disinformation and how that works. As Dr. Evans has said, the current code of practice on disinformation is still a voluntary code of practice. We played a very substantial role in monitoring adherence with the old code of practice and also with the new strengthened code of practice that was adopted last year. The Digital Services Act, DSA, will bring in the obligation to manage risks, and the failure of a large platform to sign up to the voluntary code of practice, which is likely to be made onto a co-regulatory basis, or if a platform does not abide it by that, then it will have a hard time showing that it is doing enough to deal with disinformation.

On the question about elections, as the Senator said it is not just our elections or the European Union elections in particular, it is all over the world. We have had engagement with our counterparts overseas. In the voluntary code of practice I believe that one of the issues is to have a kind of emergency response mechanism, and especially for disinformation at times of crises or at times of elections. We will want to participate in that. With regard to disinformation in particular we ourselves will not have very specific hard powers. We have met with the Electoral Commission and we will be in touch with it. It may have some powers also in relation to this although they are not yet commenced.

On the Senator's point about what attitude the platforms will have and if will they respond, when one is a regulator one always sees a spectrum of attitudes from the regulated entities ranging from people who really try their best to comply, through to people who would comply but do not really understand how to, through to people who have no interest in complying. The tools the regulator uses are a bit different depending on where people are on that spectrum. For the people who have no interest in complying then one must move much faster towards using the formal enforcement tools. The Oireachtas has given to us very substantial tools to be able to search people's premises, to be able to require information, and ultimately being able to impose fines of 6% of turnover under the Digital Services Act, and 10% under the online safety code. One way or another we will get their attention.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Godfrey for that information.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

The witnesses are very welcome. In my three years in the Oireachtas probably the busiest piece of work we were involved in was the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act. I firmly believe that it is some of the most important legislation that has gone through the Houses over the last years. I am aware the commission has a broader role, but it has a huge role with online safety for future generations. Other committee members referred to electoral disinformation but the threats of disinformation to our younger generation in particular I see as extremely important. I am the father of three young kids. I am lucky with my eldest lad who is 11 years old. He is the only child in his class who does not have a phone. He is the only lad not on Instagram, Snapchat or anything. With the current population any of the surveys brought out in recent times have indicated that kids as young as eight or nine are on multiple social media pages.

We discussed this in the Seanad where we had 27 hours of debate on Committee Stage of the Bill. We discussed the need to look at putting minimum age requirements on social media accounts. I feel very strongly about this. I believe it should be age 15, at a minimum. When we discussed this, the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin, spoke on the role of Coimisiún na Meán in that regard, and that the EU was also looking at possibly bringing in EU-wide legislation in relation to it. I do not believe we should wait for EU legislation. We need to do something about it now because we have a generation that will be brought up on their phones with false information. We need to take serious action and Coimisiún na Meán can help with that. This needs to be put forward. I feel very strongly about this, not just as a committee member but also as a parent. We need to put stringent controls in place and put the responsibility on the social media companies to push it. They are making multi-billion euro profits. They should be able to put the security measures in place to stop kids going on social media. That is what their future lives are going to be: stuck in social media rather than in the real world. I would like the witnesses' comments please.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

The question of age verification and how it might be used is something we will address in the online safety code. I will ask Ms Hodnett to speak on that.

Ms Niamh Hodnett

I thank Mr. Godfrey and Senator Carrigy. Some of the measures we discussed in our call for input, which we published in July, are measures that could be put in our first online safety code. They include two things that touch on the points the Senator has quite rightly raised: one is age verification and the other is parental controls. The types of parental control we are considering putting in our first online safety code are time limits, geolocation settings set to off, privacy settings set to on and no contact with strangers. These should be set by default potentially and be transparent and user friendly. These are the types of measures we will be consulting on in our draft online safety code consultation in the autumn. Based on those responses we will decide on whether to include these in the final code.

Another measure we are looking at including in our first online safety code, and which was the subject of our call for inputs, is age verification. Again, this is subject to consultation and our drafting of the online safety code in the autumn before we decide on what will make its way to the final binding online safety code. There is no silver bullet with regard to age verification. We have been looking at this in detail. Clearly, self-declaration or asking a child to declare his or her age is not an effective form of age verification under any measure. Some platforms are using age estimation using artificial intelligence as a way to gauge an age. At the upper end of the spectrum there is a requirement for hard age verification. This is for accessing age-inappropriate content such as pornography, or extreme or gratuitous violence, and that type of content. Without hard age verification there would be a requirement to show a government ID and have a selfie likeness attached to it. Because there is a range of issues, from privacy to mandating a new form of technology, there is a danger it could get overtaken in time. These are issues we need to consider, taking into account all the submissions from our call for inputs. In light of all the submissions, we have been looking again at the consultation for our draft online safety code. Those two measures of parental controls and age verification are certainly being considered. There is also a role for the education of parents of children as to what platforms are appropriate for them given their age.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

That was raised in our discussions going back 18 months ago. There is a responsibility there and the social media companies should be funding an education programme for kids across all schools. It should not be an ad hoc situation whereby it is only when a school applies to DCU or UCD in Dublin that they can do an online safety course. It should be mandatory across all schools and these should be paid for by the social media platforms because the children are getting on to their platforms and getting this disinformation.

What is the timeline for going forward with the consultation and the possible implementing of the measures?

Ms Niamh Hodnett

We consulted in July in our call for inputs as to what should be contained in our first online safety code. That consultation was out until 4 September and we received over 50 responses to that from Government Departments, from civil society, from academia and from the platforms themselves. We are now reviewing those responses and the next step is later in the autumn when we will consult on a draft online safety code that will have the proposed binding measures we will have in our final online safety code. We will allow a period of consultation for that and then will adopt our binding online safety code.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

What is the timeline roughly?

Ms Niamh Hodnett

Roughly, it will be later this autumn for the consultation draft online safety code and then it depends on the amount of responses they get and whether people will look for extensions to the consultation as to exactly when we would adopt the online safety code. We are pushing for it and it is on our work programme. It is our first priority in our first year of establishment.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

The Sound and Vision fund was touched on. Is Mr. Ó Domhnaill happy that sufficient funding will be put in place to support local media because of the drop in the TV licence revenue? I know extra programmes are being brought in that were part of the Future of Media Commission report but does Mr. Ó Domhnaill think there is sufficient funding there?

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

I could always do with more but it is sufficient to fulfil our plans for this year. A new community radio round is under way for €2.5 million, which will help fund programming on local radio. The long-term question to be looked at eventually concerns the transformation from a sound and vision scheme to an overarching media scheme that incorporates much more than it covers at present so it would incorporate policies for sports broadcasting, North-South co-operation, gender equality, news and current affairs and print media so that this all comes under the media fund. That is where it is going in the long term. There will be a drop in collection this year but over the past few years, the Minister and the Department have supplemented the scheme over the past few years to enable us to fund various other projects such as climate change projects and Irish language rounds.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I believe in a media charge across all households that applies to all forms of media. I would like to think that when this does happen, the figure that will be available to regional newspapers, regional radio stations and community radio stations will be higher than 7%. It is important to retain the local aspect.

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

The journalism schemes we will establish next year are part of that. The intention is that they will expand over time.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Mr. Ó Domhnaill mentioned Irish language services. Does he have any updates on the provision of Irish language services?

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

We started a comprehensive review of the provision of Irish language services that will look at all aspects of Irish language media encompassing radio, television, print and online. We hope to conclude that by the end of next year.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

When is the gender, equality, diversity and inclusion report due?

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

We hope that will be available for publication by mid-December. The idea behind that is to help us in time to come to establish a set of gender, equality, diversity and inclusion standards for the media across the industry that will help the profile and development of that area.

Senator Fintan Warfield

My first question concerns video sharing platform services. Deputy Munster touched on this issue. Am I right in saying that the consultation on the first binding online safety code for video sharing platform services has closed?

Ms Niamh Hodnett

Submissions for the consultation on the draft code have closed. We will be consulting on our first online safety code in the autumn so everybody will have the opportunity to make submissions relating to that. An online safety code can be applied to the category of video sharing platform services. That has closed and we adopted that decision. We made that designation in August 2023 and it became effective from 11 September. The next step with regard to that is consulting on named service designations. These are the names of companies that would fall into this category.

Senator Fintan Warfield

When do we get to the binding code for these services? I would like to talk about the algorithm and whether it would not be on by default. When do we get to the nitty gritty of that decision?

Ms Niamh Hodnett

That was one of the items we consulted on as part of our call for inputs about the amplification of harmful content online through recommender systems, feeders or algorithms. This is one of the harmful issues about which we are worried under a safety by design perspective. We have received responses to the call for inputs so we will take those into account and consult on the draft text of the online safety code in the autumn. That is another opportunity to respond on all of those issues.

Senator Fintan Warfield

Does Ms Hodnett have a view on whether the algorithm should be activated or not?

Ms Niamh Hodnett

Until we consult on our draft online safety code and review all the submissions on that, it would be premature to have a view as to what is going to be in our final binding online safety code.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

Under the Digital Services Act, there is a right for everybody to recommend a system that is not based on profiling. Another thing we are considering in the online safety code is whether or not providers should have a duty to make sure the algorithm does not produce some toxic feed. Sometimes you get individual pieces of content that may not in themselves be harmful. I am thinking of content about beauty that is targeted at young girls. Sometimes that is promoting an unattainable body image, which can make them susceptible to eating disorders. It is not so much the individual pieces they see, rather it is the relentless stream of content that is doing that. One of the things we are thinking about is not just through the algorithm, which can be on or off, but whether there is a way of requiring providers to make sure their algorithms are safe but as Ms Hodnett said, we have not made final decisions. They will be in the online safety code, which is in our work plan for the end of this year, although it may slip into next year.

Senator Fintan Warfield

If the Digital Services Act already includes that on-off option, what falls to the code?

Ms Niamh Hodnett

Our first online safety code will address video sharing platform services and will impose additional and more detailed obligations on those services.

Senator Fintan Warfield

So I might be able to say that I will take an algorithm but I will not take religion - my religious preferences are private or my sexuality is private. Is that the type of thing the commission might include in the code?

Ms Niamh Hodnett

The type of measures we are considering in our call for inputs on our draft online safety code will be aimed at the platform so there will be obligations on the platform, for example, to think about safety by design when it is designing and recommending a recommender system or algorithm and to consider whether there should be a safety impact assessment to consider the implications of a particular algorithm. This is all subject to consultation. The obligation will be on the platforms to ensure that they are addressing the amplification of harmful or toxic content.

Senator Fintan Warfield

Is addressing the algorithm a better and more effective option in terms of resources and freedom of expression than identifying pieces of content?

Ms Niamh Hodnett

Both are effective. We are considering a range of measures in our call for inputs. In addition to addressing the amplification of harmful content online, individual pieces of content can be very emotive and upsetting for individuals so there is a role for systemic regulation but also content moderation. Content moderation is very important so that it becomes effective, quick and transparent and people get a quick result.

Senator Fintan Warfield

Could I get an update on the content production levy? My colleague also raised this issue but I wanted to touch on it again. It is a content levy on big streamers like Netflix, Disney+ and Amazon Prime and pay TV. I think Irish audiences pay around €600 million to these services. In the vast majority of cases, this money leaves the country and misses the industry. Are there any findings from the research relating to the content production levy to date?

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

The report of the Future of Media Commission recommended that we conduct research on this matter to identify what the levy might look like, methods of calculation, the period of time it should be imposed, etc.

The work on that is beginning around now and we expect to conclude it before the time set out by the Future of Media Commission, which is around this time next year. We hope to have it in the first half of next year and that this piece of research will be conducted by then. It will be quite significant and will set out what may come in from a levy and how it might look. Then it is a matter of following that and a discussion with the Minister as to whether we are asked to design a scheme to introduce such a levy at that point.

Senator Fintan Warfield

When is the first date we will have the report?

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

The first half of next year. Maybe the first quarter, but definitely the first half.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the witnesses for being with us today. There is great enthusiasm to see Coimisiún na Meán up and running and to see the position it is in. Obviously, myself and all my colleagues believe in the importance of what this organisation can do. Our State broadcaster has been through a turbulent time over the last couple of months. Ms Craig alluded to having seen the damage this has done among the public and the view on the importance of our public service broadcaster, how funds have been used within the organisation, and how we move forward with funding public service broadcasting into the future. Would members like to comment on that and on how can we help RTÉ rebuild the public's trust? How might that be done?

Regarding the funding piece with RTÉ and all public service broadcasters, there is an agreement across all the political divides that there is more than just RTÉ providing very important public service broadcasting. One of the positives that came out of the Covid-19 pandemic, if there was one, is the public appreciation of our public service broadcaster and there is no doubt that has been dinted and damaged in some way. Would members like to comment on that? What are their thoughts and reflections on that? How we can support and rebuild public confidence so that when it comes to whatever mechanism the Government decides will be the long-term funding of public service broadcasting, the public can buy into it in a confident way.

Ms Celene Craig

As I said earlier, it is absolutely vital that trust is restored in public service broadcasting and in RTÉ as an entity in particular. I will focus a bit on our role in this regard. In our role in assessing performance and making recommendations to the Minister on public funding, trust and good governance is one of those areas we examine at a very high level. It will be extremely important that we measure the impact of the current events in relation to public trust in RTÉ during this current year and going forward. Senator Byrne referenced the Reuters-----

An Cathaoirleach

Did Ms Craig say Coimisiún na Meán would measure public trust?

Ms Celene Craig

We do not measure but we track. RTÉ measures its public trust itself. It is one of the commitments it gives with respect of its performance. It measures public trust and has its own means for doing so and that is something we track in our review of performance of the public service broadcaster. It is a very important and central metric when it comes to public service broadcasting so that is something we track. As I said, the reference in the Reuters report, while there had been some drop in the most recent report published in June of this year, it bears saying that the levels of trust in public service broadcasting in Ireland are very high compared with standards across Europe more generally. At the end of this year, when we are looking at the performance of public service broadcasting, and obviously this does not just extend to RTÉ, TG4 is subject to the same performance review, it will be very important to measure exactly what that impact has been. Regarding the broadcaster's commitment going forward, it will be very important to see very firm and concrete commitments to ways in which the broadcaster plans to restore the trust that was affected arising from all of the recent events. Ultimately, that comes back to culture and being a public service organisation that manages public funding in an accountable and very transparent way. That culture has to filter down through all of the organisation. Both the board of RTÉ and the new director general have been quite strong in saying they are determined to change that culture so it will be important to see, in their annual statement of performance commitments for next year, just what are the concrete ways in which they plan to change the culture and restore public trust.

An Cathaoirleach

On that, is there an update available on the planned five-year funding for public service broadcasting?

Ms Celene Craig

With some agreement with our Department, we would have started this work a little bit earlier but one of the key pieces that is required for that is a strategy statement from each of the two public service broadcasters. The basis for our work usually looks at what the organisational strategy is for each of the public service broadcasters for the next five years. We look for costed strategies and taking a view on that, we make recommendations to the Minister regarding funding and we use that each year to monitor progress against the strategy. There has been some delays. There were to be some delays in any event from RTÉ because of the change at the level of the director general. Obviously, recent events seem to have created some further delays in finalising that strategy. That strategy will be critical and it obviously needs to reflect the more recent concerns and what RTÉ's strategy is for dealing with that. We are hoping to commence the five-year review of public funding in quarter 4 of this year. We may have to shift a little bit on that timeline, depending on whether RTÉ has its new strategy in place or not.

An Cathaoirleach

I now go to Ms Hodnett. As my colleagues also alluded to, we did a huge amount of work on the work she will be embarking on. I am wondering about engaging with all of the platforms. Coimisiún na Meán has had good engagement. Will Ms Hodnett comment on her engagement with TikTok in particular?

Ms Niamh Hodnett

With respect, a Chathaoirligh, we have been in touch with all of the platforms and would not want to dwell on any one in particular.

An Cathaoirleach

Does her positive feedback reflect all of the platforms, including TikTok?

Ms Niamh Hodnett

The engagement has been very good with all the platforms. We have also been meeting with civil societies, with the Department of Education and all the Government Departments. We have been meeting with everyone in the online safety space included those who represent children and various different groups such as eating disorder groups and the Samaritans. We have been meeting a wide variety of groups and also with children's groups and those that represent children.

An Cathaoirleach

I am thinking of the headlines this morning where a 14-year-old lost her life and there is a belief there that is was something to do with some of the tasks that are put on platforms such as those we have spoken about. There has obviously been concerns raised around TikTok and its tracking of information and data and all that. This is globally and not just in Ireland and in government buildings. Will Ms Hodnett comment on that?

Ms Niamh Hodnett

On the first point, we were very saddened to read the same headline this morning and these types of harmful content are exactly the type of content we want to deal with in our online safety code. This is the very essence of why we need an online safety code. We are very sad to hear that news story.

Regarding the question on the data, that would be more a matter for the Data Protection Commission than ourselves so I do not think it would be appropriate for me to comment on that.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Mr. Godfrey or any of the witnesses have any thoughts on the public service piece which he would like to share? I am mindful of the fact that we are coming to the conclusion of the meeting. Do the witnesses want to share any other thoughts they may have or on how this committee can support them in the work on which they embark?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

At the beginning of the Chair's question somebody was coughing so I missed the question.

An Cathaoirleach

It was about public service broadcasting, the dint in public trust, the television licence and all of that, and the impact that will have.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I will certainly share some thoughts. Ms Craig has worked in the area a long time and others of us are new to broadcasting regulation but we were all very shocked by what happened at RTÉ. However, I was quite struck by the fact that everybody said at the time that RTÉ news was playing an absolute blinder reporting on it.

It shows that the core trust in the journalism of RTÉ is still there, so there is something to build on. As Ms Craig said, it is really a question of culture and governance in RTÉ. That needs to be improved. The only people who can take action to improve culture and governance are the board and the director general. The work this committee has done in scrutinising RTÉ has given them a great incentive to improve things. The Minister's reviews will also be helpful. As Ms Craig also said, we have a role in that. We definitely want to see RTÉ restore trust. We definitely want to see the future funding and oversight arrangements support a strategy for public service broadcasting that is fit for the digital age. It is not just about broadcasting. It is about the online presence of RTÉ and TG4 being where the audience is, as well as through traditional means. We see all of that as important. We think there needs to be consensus about what the purpose of public service broadcasters is, and what the funding requirements are, which is where we play a big role. I also think it would be desirable, as the Future of Media Commission recommended, for there to be some certainty about funding in the medium term so the broadcasters can plan and execute their strategies. Those are all important things.

In terms of what the committee can do to support, I say it should just keep holding us to account and hold the broadcasters to account.

An Cathaoirleach

I have no doubt my colleagues will do that. There is one question we hear a lot in the public debate about AI, and how that will impact on our media and social media platforms. I know there are concerns, but it will bring positives as well. However, it is certainly something we need to think about planning for. Does the commission have any thoughts on how we might prepare for that?

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

It is a huge issue, and of course there will be legislation on the way under the AI Act, which will probably not be for us. One of our main issues with AI is how it is used by the social media platforms. There was a discussion about recommending systems and algorithms. Those are based on AI. We want to make sure that when the platforms use AI it is used in a way that keeps people safe rather than a way that amplifies the dangers. As Ms Hodnett said earlier, we are a big supporter of the principle of safety by design. When new technologies and services are being deployed and developed we think it is best practice for platforms to be evaluating the impact of safety and making sure that they design in safety measures rather than have us come after them later when things are not safe. That is part of how we think about AI.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I will start with an easy one, and then direct the slightly more difficult question to Ms Hodnett. She will be aware that one of the things we were keen on was the establishment of the youth advisory panel and engaging young people. We could maybe chat in general about where that is. It is important for the committee to be aware of it. I might challenge Mr. Godfrey slightly. I think AI, particularly generative AI, whether in image and speech recognition or audio and video generation will impact on the commission's work in a big way. I am interested in the level of preparedness. Related to that, my question to Ms Hodnett is if she imagines they will be using AI within the commission to try to ensure the necessary statutory requirements they are expected to live up to. Does she think they will be using AI for those purposes?

Ms Niamh Hodnett

I will start with the youth advisory committee and then we will go to AI. We are not digital natives so it is important that we listen to young people's views, in particular in developing an online safety code, but also across a wide range of our functions. In line with the legislation we are in the process of establishing the youth advisory committee. We have started writing out to organisations which represent the youth - those under 25 year of age. We have invited them to form our youth advisory committee, and nominate a member under the age of 25 to accompany them. That is our first nascent step at establishing a youth advisory committee. We expect to have that committee in place to be able to consult with them on our draft online safety code in the autumn. That is a key priority also set out in our work programme for this year.

I will make a start on AI, and then pass over to Mr. Godfrey if that is okay.

Deputy Malcolm Byrne

Will it ensure there is a level of diversity on that committee, not only male and female, but also urban and rural and so on?

Ms Niamh Hodnett

It has not yet met, and we are just in the process of writing out to the different organisations that represent the youth. It has not yet been established. Diversity of the youth advisory committee and listening to a range of voices will be important to us.

On the subject of AI, I quote Mr. Godfrey's comment that good content moderation work is done by way of AI. It removes the need for individuals where people have to review quite upsetting content. There are good AI tasks that can be carried out in the online safety space, such as in content moderation. There may a role for AI in age estimation. We were talking earlier on with Senator Carrigy about how to deal with age assurance or age verification requirements. Amplification of harmful content online has already been discussed and that is also an AI issue. The question of whether we will be using AI I will hand to Mr. Godfrey or Dr. Evans. Not at the moment is my answer.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I want to thank the Senator for challenging. I think I gave a slightly misleading impression. AI is obviously important in the way the platforms use it. It is also important in the way their users use it, in terms of generative AI producing deep fakes and so forth. That is also a part of misinformation and disinformation. All of those things will be important to us. I think AI is also something that could be raised under the European Media Freedom Act. The use of AI is part of what we regulatory nerds call RegTech. That is, how do we use technology to help us regulate better? We can use it as we gather data from the platforms to monitor compliance. We might use AI in those ways as we undertake other forms of digital forensics. That is something we need to look at. The question of RegTech is not unique to Coimisiún na Meán. It is something which other digital regulators are also looking at. There is a discussion going on between us and the other digital regulators at the Data Protection Commission, DPC, ComReg and the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, about how RegTech might be used, and also what skills we will need, what kind of people we will need, and what packages it would take to recruit people like that into the digital regulatory space.

Deputy Malcolm Byrne

They could use AI recruitment processes.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

There are some dangers in that too.

Deputy Malcolm Byrne

Yes.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

We would not want to build in biases, which I think has been a case. Our priority in our first year is to get ourselves established, and to do the basics in putting the building blocks in place to do the regulation. The question of how we use AI is something we will come to next year.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I will come back in on what I spoke about earlier. Ms Hodnett in particular spoke about consultation and looking for consultation on what would happen going forward. I ask that the report put forward by this committee after probably nine months of prelegislative scrutiny on the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill would be taken into account. I feel strongly about the age thing. As a father of young kids, it is a very scary world out there. We need to be bold and go where nowhere else has gone and take a stand, because we need to protect our kids.

Ms Niamh Hodnett

We all feel strongly about protecting our children. All of us from online harm have read in detail the prelegislative scrutiny from this committee of the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act 2022. We have read the debates and watched some of them that are still available to watch.

An Cathaoirleach

That concludes our business for the day. I thank all of the witnesses for being here, and wish them the best of luck in the work they do. We are depending on them. Everybody has mentioned the concerns we have, in particular around children, online safety and harmful content.

We could go on, including in regard to our national broadcaster. There are big pieces of work for Coimisiún na Meán to do and a nation depending on it to do them. We very much appreciate that, and we look forward to having Mr. Godfrey back with us again.

Mr. Jeremy Godfrey

I thank the committee. Many members sent us strong messages of welcome and support and we are very pleased to have got them. I thank all the members of the committee for that.

An Cathaoirleach

We will be very happy to support An Coimisiún na Meán in the work we do. I propose that we now suspend briefly to allow the witnesses to leave the room before we start our private session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 3.10 p.m. and resumed in private session at 3.16 p.m.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.21 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 4 October 2023.