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Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media debate -
Wednesday, 4 Oct 2023

RTÉ Oversight and Long-Term Support and Funding: Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media

We have received apologies for Senator Warfield. I also wish to advise members of the formal substitutions for today's meeting. Senator Garret Ahearn is substituting for Senator Micheál Carrigy while Senator Marie Sherlock is substituting for Senator Annie Hoey.

The meeting has been convened with the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media to discuss the oversight of RTÉ's expenditure of public funds and governance issues and plans for longer term support and funding for public service media. I welcome the Minister and her officials to the meeting. As the Minister is present, it is not expected that officials will speak in public session. I see members of the media are in the Public Gallery. They are very welcome.

The format of today's meeting today is such that I will invite the Minister to deliver an opening statement, which will be limited to five minutes. This will be followed by questions from members. As the Minister is probably aware, the committee may publish the opening statement on the committee website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to attend where he or she is not adhering to that constitutional requirement. I now invite the Minister to make her opening statement.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus le baill an choiste as an deis na mórcheisteanna cultúrtha, rialaithe agus rialachais atá tagtha chun solais in RTÉ le roinnt míonna anuas agus na céimeanna atá á nglacadh chun aghaidh a thabhairt ar na hábhair seo a phlé. I thank the Cathaoirleach and committee members for the opportunity to discuss the serious cultural, control and governance issues that have come to light in RTÉ over the course of recent months and the steps that are being taken to address these matters.

It is worth noting again the vital role public service media play in ensuring the well-being of our society and the health of our democracy. However, public service media must have the public interest at their core and the public must have faith in their ethos and integrity, in what they say and, even more importantly, in what they do.

As we all know, that trust was shattered and a priority for the RTÉ board and senior management is now to rebuild trust not only with the public but also, importantly, with their own staff. Under the chair, Siún Ní Raghallaigh, and director general, Kevin Bakhurst, this process is under way. A number of positive actions have been taken by the board and director general over recent weeks that are designed to change the way in which RTÉ operates and lead to a more transparent and properly functioning public service broadcaster. This is just a start and there is much yet to be done. However, it is important we now focus on solutions and on charting a way forward. These solutions - the rebuilding process - will be informed and directed by independent interrogation, analysis and recommendations. The work of both this committee and the Committee of Public Accounts is contributing to this process in seeking greater transparency and enabling the public to gain a fuller understanding of what has occurred and why.

The independent reviews and examinations I have put in place are key central planks in the overall response to this crisis not only to informing our understanding of how RTÉ carried out its business in the past but also in shaping a better RTÉ for the future. The two expert advisory committees are continuing their work in examining the inadequacy or failures of internal processes, procedures, controls and oversight. They will also enable us to understand the culture that has developed within the organisation, or parts of the organisation, and how that culture may have contributed to the control and governance failings. More importantly, their recommendations will underpin a new framework to ensure best practice in corporate governance control and oversight.

They will also help in renewing RTÉ’s culture to ensure that it has service to the public at its core. The work of the forensic accountants I appointed in July has already set out some detail about the operation of the barter account and is continuing so that we can have full transparency about the use of the barter accounts to access goods and services by RTÉ. As I informed the Chair of this committee yesterday, the expert advisory committee on governance and culture has requested an expansion of the terms of the reference of the work of the forensic accountants to feed into its own work. The additional terms will focus on whether appropriate processes and procedures were followed in respect of the approval and operation of the barter account when it was established in 2012; the role of the executive board and board of RTÉ as regards the governance of the barter account in the period 2017 to 2022; and whether the internal audit function in RTÉ, the audit and risk committee of the board of RTÉ, and RTÉ’s external auditor examined or queried the barter account in the period 2017 to 2022 and, if not, why not. These new terms of reference will inform the deliberations of the expert advisory committee and will be published alongside its final report after it has been submitted to me and considered by Government.

The comprehensive and far-reaching examinations I have initiated, together with the reviews commissioned by the board itself and the work of Oireachtas committees, may be unprecedented but they are vital. While public service broadcasting is and should always be independent, it must also be accountable, transparent and trustworthy. I remain committed to supporting an independent but accountable public service broadcasting sector that meets its public service objects, which is necessary to ensure that the Irish public continue to have access to high-quality public service media content.

Also required is an appropriate and sustainable funding model. With regard to the longer-term funding of public service media in general and RTÉ in particular, I remain committed to the reform of the TV licence system. The technical working group we set up last year has completed its work examining the options for reform of the current system. However, it was necessary to pause consideration of the matter until we could gain a fuller understanding of the issues which have dominated the past few months and, importantly, until we could see that RTÉ had committed to reform, rebuilding trust and becoming the public service broadcaster the public has the right to expect. I will continue to discuss this matter with Cabinet colleagues and will bring the technical working group report to Cabinet in due course but we must first focus on interim funding.

While the Future of Media Commission had set out a recommended public funding level for RTÉ, the broadcaster's own assessment was submitted to me earlier this year and sought, as has been reported, a total of €34.5 million in additional funding for next year. This was prior to the recent downturn in the number of licence fees issued. All of this had to be properly interrogated by NewERA. NewERA has completed its assessment and last week I received its report, which will help inform discussions with Cabinet colleagues on the levels of interim funding necessary for RTÉ. Obviously, I cannot disclose the detail of that report in advance of discussions with Cabinet colleagues but I will say that, even in the midst of this controversy, we need to ensure that RTÉ can continue to meet its statutory obligations and interim funding will be required for this. However, this will not simply be a question of increasing public funding for RTÉ. Already the director general has announced a number of measures aimed at reducing costs this year. This is to be welcomed but I expect that, in developing its new strategic plan, a serious commitment to reducing costs and achieving value for money will need to be evident. This new strategy will also need to set out a vision for RTÉ’s future in light of all that has happened and in the context of the competitive and changing media landscape in which it operates. This vision needs to chart a positive way forward so that RTÉ can become the public service broadcaster the Irish public expect and deserve.

We have all been shocked and outraged at what has transpired since the end of June but, while we seek the full facts, we must also look to the future. We must not only look for the answers to our questions, but also seek solutions to the problem and look for ways in which we can all help shape a public service broadcaster of which we can be proud. My focus is firmly on putting in place a plan that will do this. Tá craolachán seirbhíse poiblí ríthábhachtach dár sochaí agus, mar sin, caithfear an deis seo a thapú lena chinntiú go bhfuil sé oiriúnach don fheidhm. Public service broadcasting is too important for our society to not take this opportunity to ensure that it is fit for purpose.

I thank the Minister very much for that opening statement. I will now turn to my colleagues, who have nine minutes each. I would appreciate it if they would stick to that. They may use their own discretion as to whether they want to make statements or ask questions but they should remember they only have nine minutes.

I welcome the Minister and the guests who are joining us here this morning. I am sure the Minister will have been following the committee's hearings with RTÉ over recent weeks. On the serious revelations that were uncovered, how has she felt on listening to the many weeks of hearings and on hearing those revelations?

Like everyone else, I have been shocked at everything that has been revealed about our national public service broadcaster. Trust has been absolutely shattered. This is really serious because of the value of public service broadcasting to democracy and to society. That is why I moved very quickly to set up two external examinations. I took that action immediately upon these issues coming to light. Within two days of that first statement from RTÉ, I met with the chair of the board and announced an independent review of governance structures and organisational cultures within RTÉ to determine the systemic issues that needed to be addressed but to also look to the future and consider internal controls, which were simply inadequate and which had failed, and to make recommendations for the future. I felt it really important that these be independent investigations to help with restoring trust. In my engagement with staff and trade unions in the following days, I heard their concerns and realised that the examination had to be widened to look at HR issues and at how external contractors are engaged and how fees are paid to them. It became a much broader issue. The committees did invaluable work too.

Given the gravity of the scandal, how confident is the Minister that the board of RTÉ can uphold its responsibilities and ensure RTÉ's standards and corporate governance are maintained?

I have confidence in the board and the chair. It should be remembered that the chair has only been in place since last November and that it is under this board's watch that this issue was discovered. The board has worked under the stewardship of Siún Ní Raghallaigh to ensure that the full facts regarding the issues that have caused this controversy are uncovered and disclosed. It has really worked to make sure that it functions better and that the executive puts in place appropriate structures and processes to ensure that trust in RTÉ can be restored. I have confidence in the board.

Does the Minister agree with the assertion that the board of RTÉ was asleep at the wheel?

The board of RTÉ did the right thing in March when it identified an issue and sought for it to be examined immediately. There were, of course, failings there, however. We have all seen that in various reports and in the work of this committee and the Committee of Public Accounts. The board and the executive accept their failings and the need to address them. However, even more importantly, they know they need to look to the future rather than to the past so that they can rebuild trust.

We heard about the great failings in the checks and balances where they did not uncover ongoing issues and ask serious questions of executive management in RTÉ. Does the Minister have confidence in the board's capability to perform its oversight function effectively? We have heard that, in some instances, the board had not met for long periods. In hindsight, it was certainly asleep at the wheel. What are the Minister's feelings on that?

I believe they have moved quickly to work to improve the structures and to address that lack of governance and transparency. The skill set is there in the board as well. The new chair has an accountancy background and board members are recruited through rigorous processes involving the Public Appointments Service and this committee. The members have the various skills needed.

They really engaged with this committee and with the external examinations that I put in place. There was full co-operation with that. They are now in the right position to chart a path forward.

The feeling, as far as I am concerned anyway, is that something needed to happen with the board due to its failures. In any scenario where we had huge failings in corporate governance, the hard questions were not being asked. We have seen major casualties from RTÉ executive management, and rightly so, but nothing happened with the board. When it emerged that the Minister was not informed during the discussions that the chair had asked Ms Forbes to quit, how did the Minister feel that she was out of the picture in this regard?

It is true that I found out when the committee members found out on 28 June. The chair rang me on the morning afterwards, following the appearance, to explain and apologise. The explanation was that it was due to due process and individual rights. I had been informed of the suspension-----

Does the Minister agree that was a fatal mistake?

I believe it was to do with due process and individual rights. I was aware of the suspension. I was told about that when it had taken place.

Ms Forbes subsequently resigned two days later. Does the Minister think that was a mistake?

I have heard it said that maybe due to the resignation, there was no participation in the committees. It is actually not the resignation but the ill health of the individual involved that is preventing her from coming before the committees. What I would really like to see is for her to come before the committees and shed light on this.

I want to move on to RTÉ's director general, Mr. Kevin Bakhurst, who said at a previous session of the Committee of Public Accounts that RTÉ will need around €56 million in additional interim funding and that it is expected to lose up to €21 million in TV licence revenue by the end of the year. Given that the station needs to meet its statutory obligations, what are the Minister's thoughts on the revised funding request?

As the Deputy will be aware, NewERA interrogated that ask and came back to me with the recommendation last week. As the Deputy rightly pointed out, RTÉ has to fulfil its statutory obligations and we have to ensure that it does not fail as a result of this crisis, particularly in view of the value of public service broadcasting and the number of staff involved. I cannot reveal the exact figure that is being discussed with my colleagues right now, but I would point the Deputy to the Future of Media Commission recommendation. Last year, in the budget, there was a commitment from Government of €15 million. In order to fulfil that statutory obligation we should be looking at the figure of €16 million recommended by the Future of Media Commission. For anything else above that, we should wait until we see the strategic vision and what the plans are for robust governance, the future of RTÉ and cost efficiencies.

Does the Minister think that the taxpayer should be financially responsible for what RTÉ has done regarding the drop-off in the licence fee?

As I have always said in respect of the TV licence, what it really comes down to is whether we value public service broadcasting. In this day and age, I believe we need it. Public service broadcasting is of more importance than ever before to society and democracy. That is not just news and current affairs but entertainment, education and independent productions. There is an obligation on RTÉ to provide such independent productions. What I am saying to Deputy Dillon regarding the budget is that we should look at the Future of Media Commission's recommendations, but we also need to see a very clear plan on robust governance going forward and the cost efficiencies that RTÉ will put in place. It will not go above that amount until we see that.

I have one final question. When does the Minister anticipate that the internal reviews she has initiated will be published?

As I always said, I would expect the two external reviews within six months from when they started. We will be at the middle of that at the end of October, and I hope to meet with them then. They are in more than weekly and very regular contact with my officials but I would like to meet them at the end of October to see how it is progressing. It will take six months, and, as the Deputy saw earlier from the communications with the committee last night, they have asked for an extension of the forensic accountant's remit into their investigations.

Why is there a new focus on the understanding of proper procedure regarding the barter account? I see the Minister has extended this back to 2012. Can she shed some light on the widening of the terms of reference?

The group approached me last week and asked for that to be extended. From its investigation, that is something that needs to be seen to be done. The original terms of reference had the off-balance sheet items from 2017 to 2022, but now they are looking for that to be extended. That is on foot of a request from the expert advisory committee on governance and culture. I trust that this is what it needs to be done.

I thank the Minister for her opening statement. I want to touch on a few issues. The first is the forensic investigation that Mazars is carrying out into the barter accounts, the mismanagement and misuse of the barter accounts, the 35% in additional costs that were paid every time there was a transaction, etc. The Minister said that the advisory committee has got the extension to investigate further, and that is to be welcomed. Has she ever considered, as part of the reform or the funding criteria, that RTÉ would discontinue the use of the barter account, given all we now know about what went on with the barter accounts? Has the Minister considered that they stop the use of them?

The problem with the barter account has been the operation of it. We can clearly see that it was not operating in the way it should have been. That is why the forensic accountant is looking to expand the terms of reference because they are going to go back to the very origins of it in 2012, rather than just dealing with the period from 2017. There are certainly question marks over the barter account, but, as I said, it is about the operation of it. I will wait to see what the recommendations are from the expert advisory committee, and all reports will feed into it. It will do that forensic examination, and then I will look at that.

It is very clear that RTÉ can no longer use the barter account for goods and services. It can now only be cashed out. All annual trade agreements with the three barter agencies are to be signed off by both the barter agency and RTÉ's head of trading. There are a number of processes that have been strengthened now as a result of the first Mazars investigation. I await the recommendations.

It is fair enough that the Minister is awaiting the recommendations but she would, I am sure, agree that any recommendations would have to be absolutely watertight, with a huge degree of oversight at every level? As she knows, all of this went on under the watch of the entire executive board, and indeed the board. Nobody, it appears, was aware of anything that was going on. That is why I thought I would ask whether the Minister considered the option of discontinuing the use of them, given the level of misuse.

The use of a barter account is something that is the norm. It is how it was operated that is highly problematic. I agree with the Deputy that the recommendations definitely have to be watertight. They need to be robust if they are to remain in place. We, the Oireachtas, have to have full confidence, and the public has to regain full confidence, so it must be clear that if the barter account remains in place, that we have trust in it. That is why governance goes to the very heart of this, and there is abysmal failing.

I wanted to touch on something else. The Minister is aware that licence fee receipts will be down by €21 million by the end of the year, and possibly even more. She is aware of the recent survey regarding public confidence in RTÉ, not just regarding what happened and all that we went through but also regarding the maintenance of RTÉ Player, the constant repeats and all of that sort of thing.

RTÉ's biggest problem now, however, is going to be regaining the public's trust and encouraging people to see the benefit in again paying for their TV licence, but it has a mountain to climb to regain that trust. Moreover, I expect people are not going to swallow one aspect of that too easily, namely, the fact nobody involved has either been held to account or sanctioned and there is no talk of that whatsoever. Members of the executive board took early retirement, which was grand but they were not affected in any way. They went off with their retirement packages, which they were entitled to do, but nobody has been sanctioned and that is where the buck stops at accountability. We can bring in new robust measures but, as has always happened in this State, nobody is held to account, and that is RTÉ's biggest worry. I hope it will show levels of accountability and that sanctions will be put in place for people following the investigations in which we have discovered they knew it all, said nothing and went along with it. I know we will have to wait until the conclusion of the investigations but, as I said, it is the public with whom RTÉ has to deal and whose confidence it has to regain. A key aspect is that no one is ever held to account and it will stick in people's craw if nobody is ever sanctioned. They get a slap on the wrist and can move on.

Turning to RTÉ's new strategic plan, a serious commitment has been given to cost-cutting measures and achieving value for money. I assume that is ongoing and well under way, but has the Minister asked for an update on the engagement with the unions for the ordinary workers, who had no hand, act or part in any of this? People will fear they will be the ones to suffer the most. Has RTÉ been dealing with the unions in that regard? Has the Minister sought an update on that? The vast majority of the workers are not on the big bucks or on the executive board.

Another failing of RTÉ was the lack of engagement with staff and the unions. That engagement has definitely improved under the new director general's watch and he will certainly consult them on the future strategy. I will be meeting him this week. At all times when I have met the director general since he took up his position in July, I have emphasised the need for trust to be rebuilt with staff and for that engagement with the unions. I will seek an update on that this week.

We expect to see RTÉ's new strategic plan and I think the director general is supposed to be publicising it this month. If we get the new strategic plan and if RTÉ is saying what is going to be different at a top level in the broadcaster, how will the Minister measure that against the investigations that will not be completed until year end, in the context of decisions made on funding and so on? If RTÉ launches its new strategic plan and says there are levels of oversight at X, Y and Z, and, we hope, sanctions and so on in an effort to regain public trust, at what stage will a decision be made about funding, given the other investigations will not be finished until the end of the year and we will not know the full story until we see the results of those investigations?

There are two issues here, namely, the interim funding and the future funding model. For the latter, the longer package, we will have to await the recommendations of the two independent expert groups I have set up, and I think that is the way it should be in case they identify something not in the strategic vision, for example, that we have all missed because they are undertaking such a forensic interrogation. On the interim funding, as I said, we will look to the Future of Media Commission recommendation in what I am looking for in the budget. The Deputy knows what its ask was. NewERA has recommended a sum and that will be contingent on the strategic vision, but in the case of the longer term funding package, we will await the outcomes of the independent investigations.

The technical working group has submitted its recommendations to the Minister in advance of her long-awaited decision. I know this has yet to be discussed by Cabinet and so on, but at this stage can the Minister even give us a clue as to what options are on the table regarding the licence fee?

I acknowledge it is difficult to hear this but I simply cannot reveal that until it has been discussed with my Cabinet colleagues. The working group was set up to seek alternatives to that recommendation for Exchequer funding that was in the Future of Media Commission report, so it was looking at a strengthening of what was there. I know I have had it since March and I had hoped to seek a decision on it before the summer recess, but the current Government will make a decision on the future funding model of RTÉ and the media. I am absolutely determined to do that but I have to pause, as I hope the Deputy and the committee will understand. There is hearsay out there on what is being considered and I am sure committee members can work out what might be there, but I am not going to confirm one way or another because I have to bring it to Cabinet.

I welcome the Minister and her officials. I appreciate the approach she has taken in respect of the reviews in that she has been willing to extend their terms. I also welcome her engagement with RTÉ staff. The NewERA report will be on her desk for a decision on, as she mentioned, the critical issue of the level of interim funding for RTÉ. Will she give us an indication as to the timeframe for that? When will we know when the decision will take place?

The first step of that will be what is decided in the budget. As I said, we will look to the Future of Media Commission recommendation, which was for €50 million last year, and there is a commitment of €16 million this year, so it is-----

Could I work on the basis that two or three weeks after the budget next week, we will know the sum that will be given to RTÉ?

I will need to see the strategic plan before we decide on anything above the Future of Media Commission recommendations. My colleagues and I, and I think all the committee members, would accept that we will need to see a strategic vision and RTÉ’s plan for reform and cost efficiencies before anything else is given.

Turning to the conditions attached to that funding, which will be related to the strategic plan, if RTÉ fails to meet its commitments, what sanctions or actions could be taken?

The plan will be shown to us at a high level in October and we will then see the exact timelines and how it will be implemented. The bottom line is we need to make sure RTÉ can continue to produce and provide a high-quality public service to the people, but I have to be careful in that, under the legislation, we cannot impinge on its editorial independence. Nevertheless, we expect it to take all actions to maintain and reduce costs. With so strong a spotlight on RTÉ, not only from me as Minister and the Cabinet but also the entire Oireachtas and the public, everyone is watching out for that strategic vision and will be looking at its implementation.

The Minister highlighted the importance of the independent production sector. If there are cuts to RTÉ's funding, there is the danger of cuts through the independent production unit as well. What guarantee can the Minister give that, in the money going to the independent production sector through the independent production unit in RTÉ, those budgets will not be cut in 2024?

That will absolutely be protected under legislation. RTÉ has an obligation in that regard to independent productions. I spoke to the unit at a meeting in the past ten days or so and allayed the staff's fears about that.

I appreciate that. Why is there not a requirement on RTÉ, given that this is part of the problem, to maintain separate accounts for its public service activities versus its commercial activities?

We will have to see what comes from the recommendations of the expert advisory group. It is a dual-funded model. This could be a recommendation from the expert advisory group. As I said, everything is-----

Would the Minister favour such an approach?

I will lean to whatever the expert advisory group recommends. Its members are the experts. That is why they are in place. They are independent, and it is critical that they have that independence.

I want to move on to the bigger picture. This is a direct political concern. When Kevin Bakhurst came before us, he indicated that some of the areas he would be looking at possibly reducing funding for included coverage of the local and European elections and also possibly ard-fheiseanna and party conferences. From a political point of view, public service broadcasting can be vital to a democracy. If RTÉ was to decide to reduce funding in that area, would the Minister consider opening up the tender in some way for other public broadcasters to be able to apply to provide the services? I appreciate that the Minister cannot interfere but this is something Mr. Bakhurst told our committee.

There is editorial independence involved, and it is not for me to interfere. What I will say is that some of the cost efficiencies the director general pointed to that day would be quite minimal in the grander scheme of where savings need to be made. I am looking for bigger savings than that. To be honest with the Senator, it is on a much grander scale.

I agree. It was that particular point the director general raised that I was concerned about. The bigger picture here is around the future of public service broadcasting, which is the issue we were all looking at before the scandal arose in RTÉ and which our committee will be reporting on. The licence fee model is clearly broken. When Coimisiún na Meán's representatives came before us last week, they indicated that they would be open to the function being given to it to manage a fund with regard to public service broadcasting. As the Minister knows, it already manages the sound and vision fund, which is 7% of the licence fee, and it does that quite well. Would the Minister be open, if the recommendation came forward, to giving Coimisiún na Meán the power to manage, at arm's length, a public service broadcasting fund?

It is dependent on the Government decision, but this was pointed to in the Future of Media Commission report. It will depend on that. As I said, the technical working group was set up to look at alternatives to Exchequer funding. It was set up with a different backdrop and at a different time. Maybe we have to look at all options. All options should be on the table now.

I appreciate that. I know that with the TV licence technical working group it was a different environment but we are now in the situation where significant numbers of people are not paying their TV licence fee. We are going to reach a tipping point where those of us who are paying are going to ask why we are continuing to pay it when so many are not paying it. I would respectfully suggest that when the Minister received that report in March, it was a very different environment to that in which we are operating now. I would even say, potentially, that report is redundant. When are we going to get the final decision? The Minister said it would be in the lifetime of this Government. There is a sticking plaster solution for RTÉ this year but when will we get the final decision about how we are going to fund public service broadcasting? That could be by means of some reformed licence or a device levy or my personal preferred option, which as the Minister knows is direct Exchequer funding provided through a body operating at arm's length.

As I said, I feel consecutive Governments have failed on this issue. This Government will grasp the nettle. I am absolutely determined to do that. I was determined to get the resolution to this issue before the crisis emerged. As I said to Deputy Munster earlier, I want to wait. To make the decision on this and for whatever that decision is to rest as well as possible with the public, that element of trust has to be there. That is why I need to see the independent expert committee reports. They take six months to complete, so we are looking at the end of December or January before I have them. That is crucial, not just for the decision but for the trust element so the decision lands well. We want it to land well. As I said earlier, I agree that the technical working group was operating at a different time. I am saying that I think all options should be on the table now.

The Minister will be aware that the political clock is ticking and that we are going to be moving into a general election phase in a year or 18 months. If this is to be done in the lifetime of this Government, would it be fair to say that in the first half of next year, a decision will be made?

That is what I am aiming for, and I know my Cabinet colleagues are of the same opinion. Although the focus is obviously on the interim funding right now, there are discussions on the fringes of that in relation to the future funding model. We have not taken the foot off the pedal on that at all.

That is great. I very much appreciate that. You could certainly see a body such as Coimisiún na Meán, operating at arm's length, managing a fund to allocate resources to public service broadcasting.

Yes, and the Future of Media Commission report pointed to that as well.

On the Future of Media Commission report, the recommendation on the licence fee was the only one that was not accepted by the Government. The Minister might outline why she feels it was not accepted by the Government. Does she think events have perhaps changed minds at Cabinet?

There is obviously a fear there in relation to the independence of a public service broadcaster if it was Exchequer funded and there was in any way influence over the public service broadcaster. That was the concern at the time. I cannot comment on what we are looking at but I think the funding model has been impacted this summer in a way that puts that technical working group's work into a different frame. We need to look at a way to incentivise us all to proceed with reform so public service media can be properly funded into the future. That is why I think we need to put all options on the table.

I would argue that independence is protected by a number of arm's-length bodies already within the Minister's remit. The Arts Council is such a body, and it makes determinations. This is also done by Sport Ireland for allocations to sporting organisations. In a sense, by deciding what the level of the licence fee is, the Government makes a decision. I would respectfully suggest that that independence is protected when you have an arm's length body like the media commission in place.

This will form part of the discussions over the coming months.

I have one final question.

Final, Senator.

I welcome the Minister's call for Dee Forbes to provide evidence to this committee and to co-operate with groups when she is in a position to do so. I assume that would also apply to Jim Jennings. From our committee's perspective it would be useful to hear from him.

Absolutely. I would expect anyone who can shed light on this, when they are back to full health, to come before the committees and engage.

I call Senator Sherlock.

I thank the Minister and her officials for attending. I want to pick up on that issue of the financing of RTÉ. I am sure the Minister has seen the poll over the weekend in The Irish Times in which some 40% of individuals or households indicated that they are reluctant to or will not pay the licence fee. There have been statements from the Government on pausing reform or the decision on the licence fee and waiting for the reports to come early next year. What impact does the Minister think Government statements are having an people's sentiment and attitude towards the licence fee? Does she think it is influencing people's lack of appetite towards paying the €160 at this point?

Each and every one of us, including members of Government and Members of both Houses, has a responsibility there. At every opportunity I get, I emphasise and point to highlight not only the legal obligation but also the benefits it brings to society. Each and every one of us has done that throughout this process. To make a decision on the future funding model with everything emerging as it was, I think it was the right decision to pause that decision and to put independent expert committees in place to fully interrogate it.

A great job of work has been done in this committee and in the Committee of Public Accounts, and it is important that we had the experts armed with a forensic accountant to really interrogate it and rebuild that trust.

We all accept that the work of those review groups is vital. It is the period that we have to wait that is the difficulty, given the message it sends out to the public. If the Government is not prepared to fully make good the deficit in RTÉ this year, then that is having an impact on people's views. I take on board what the Minister said about the €16 million for this year, which is certainly welcome, but that is going to be a fraction of what RTÉ requires this year.

To add to that, apart from the €16 million recommended by the Future of Media Commission, more will be needed this year and that is why we are looking to the strategic vision. I hope the public will see that we are tying future funding but we are not going to let RTÉ fail this year while we wait for the longer-term funding model decision to be made. We are tying it with that strategic vision and we hope the public will see that. I think it should be conditional like that to help to restore the trust.

In terms of the measures introduced by the director general, DG, in September, I read that the Minister has said she welcomes them. The vast majority of RTÉ staff would say they are working their damnedest, day in, day out, that a number of people are working in parts of RTÉ that are under-resourced and that there is a shortage of regional correspondents and other staff shortages. What kind of message does it send out to them to see the cost-cutting agenda that the Minister has set out and that will need to take place within RTÉ? We all accept there were absolute excesses taking place in certain parts of the organisation but, for the vast majority of the organisation, there is not much fat at all. Can I hear a little more from the Minister with regard to the cost savings that she is looking for within RTÉ?

That is for them to present in their strategic vision. None of us want to see redundancies because, as the Senator said, the staff are the innocent victims in this. Much valued behind-the-scenes work has been done. That is why one of those independent expert groups is really looking at and interrogating the staff element, HR and the contracts out of absolute respect for and recognition of the work they do, and maybe the under-appreciation of them, to make sure we right that wrong. These are decisions for the DG to make and to recommend to us, and we await that in October.

Does the Minister accept there is a fear that we might see a contraction of the range of services provided or the content generated by RTÉ?

I can understand if there is a fear there and that is why it is important the DG is engaging. He has created a new staff engagement forum that was never there before. That is why, when I meet him this week, I will be emphasising again that with regard to the strategic vision, I will expect full consultation with the staff before it is announced.

My next question is in regard to the Minister's Department and its relationship with RTÉ. Last year and the year before, additional funding was sought by RTÉ on top of the licence fee. What sort of due diligence or process is undertaken by the Department? Obviously, the commission makes a recommendation but I presume the Department also undertakes some sort of due diligence. Were concerns aired or articulated last year in terms of the funding of RTÉ? Has the Minister changed any processes within her own Department in terms of the oversight of RTÉ?

Last year, the Future of Media Commission recommendation was not simply a case of saying “Here, you have that”. RTÉ would actually have sought more and, similar to this year, NewERA interrogated that ask and recommended that we stick to the Future of Media Commission amount, which was €15 million last year. Another recommendation that has happened since is that NewERA has been brought under the Minister, Deputy Michael McGrath's Department, which was a recommendation from the Future of Media Commission.

I can accept that the commission makes a recommendation but, from the Department's perspective, what kind of internal mechanisms are there in terms of reviewing the recommendation of the commission? Is that just taken blindly or is there a process within the Department that assesses the recommendation?

Is that in relation to the actual amount of €15 million?

The Government accepted that because it was an expert task force that made those recommendations, but NewERA then recommended it. This year, it made a recommendation for this year's budget. Last year, it made the recommendation and it happened to land on the exact same amount as the Future of Media Commission.

I offer a warm welcome to the Minister and her officials. To start on that issue of the recommended figure by NewERA in terms of what is required, the Minister said that that figure is then contingent on what is going to be outlined in the strategic vision by RTÉ and Kevin Bakhurst. The director general said to me, when he was here a couple of weeks ago, that he would have the outline of the strategic vision published before budget day. We are six days away from the budget and I am wondering about the alignment of where we stand in terms of them coming with their hand out, looking for money, and waiting maybe until the last hour of the night before the budget, and saying “This is the framework for our strategic vision. Now deliver tomorrow.” Has there been that kind of back and forth between RTÉ and the Department to line that up for budget day?

Where we are now is that I will be meeting Kevin Bakhurst again this week. As I said, in the budget, because we have not seen the strategic vision yet and I do not believe it will land before the budget, so-----

I do not mean to interrupt the Minister. In his opening statement on the last day, he said he would have the full vision by Christmas but that he would have the framework of the strategic vision in October. I specifically asked him if he would have it before budget day, conscious that RTÉ is looking for money, and he said that he would. That is on the record. He confirmed that they would have it before budget day.

Unfortunately, that will not be the case now, but we have seen other delays that have happened in regard to reports, for example. As a direct consequence of that, I will not be considering the full amount until I see the strategic vision. I am only going to look at the recommendation of the Future of Media Commission in the budget and I will hold off on anything above that until I see the strategic vision because that is the condition.

I am conscious that he is only going to have a framework for the Minister in October and he will only have the full vision by the end of the year. When is the Minister prepared to make a decision if she is only getting a framework in October and if she will not have the full document until the end of the year?

I would not be inclined to make a decision until I have more than a framework.

I think the Future of Media Commission amount in the budget is enough to keep them. As I said, we cannot let RTÉ fail, as our national broadcaster.

I will not let that happen but there has to be conditionality too.

Okay. He has used very strong language in respect of this, as a reforming DG. He has said he is going to implement radical reform. Obviously, the public are interested as well. In terms of setting the bar, what constitutes radical reform within RTÉ? I think we are at odds here. The public are losing faith in the national broadcaster by virtue of not renewing their TV licences. What is deemed radical reform for this organisation?

Obviously, it is robust governance but within that robust governance, a lot of it is fixing what we would have expected in the first place. I would like to see a focus on independent productions, on digital and on driving efficiencies. We need to see a vision of a trustworthy broadcaster that provides quality content that reflects the values of our society and reflects the diversity of Ireland and inclusivity, and it needs to be done in a cost-effective way. It has to be something that will inform, educate and entertain.

That is what I would like to see done, but it is up to the director general to present how that will be done.

Absolutely. The Minister has focused on the very positive work RTÉ does on content, but the director general's reform is going to be about reforming how the broadcaster operates, such as how it spends money and brings in money. I am pressing the Minister on this because the director general is not behind the wall on putting it up to us, and to the Minister in particular. To read again from his remarks, he said of the choices that can be made that "...we can work together ... or we can accept [RTÉ's] failure and demise". He said he did not believe this committee could accept that. What he is obviously pushing on is the funding aspect. He is pushing again and saying he wants the Government to intervene and save RTÉ. Before we see his vision, I am asking the Minister what in our vision, as an invested stakeholder, constitutes radical reform at board and decision-making level by RTÉ.

They are really issues for the director general to bring to Government rather than for the Government to bring to him. Having said that, we have the expert groups in place to make those recommendations from a cultural, governance and HR point of view. There will of course be cuts in some areas, but we will have to see investment in others. The director general is going to have to future-proof RTÉ, but these are the tough decisions he has to make.

I know. He said in his statements to this committee the last time that cuts are inevitable, but I am interested in what are unacceptable cuts from our perspective. The closure of regional offices has been looked at before. There is the impact on staff and the reduction of services. From our point of view in terms of our investment, what are the red lines that would represent an unacceptable reduction of RTÉ's services?

I would not like to see compulsory redundancies. That is one area, and the Senator might agree with me on that. However, on the other issues it is the director general who knows this best and he will have to make an informed opinion on that and come to us.

That is true. In fairness, when we get that we can have a debate again. It would have been better if he had got the framework ahead of budget day as he said he was going to. The Minister talked about the culture change. Let us call a spade a spade; RTÉ has a commercial arm and we had a situation previously where it made in excess of 70% of its income from that arm. If any other business was in here and in trouble, we would look at how it is able to generate income. RTÉ, unlike the BBC, has the ability to generate income from its commercial arm and in the first instance we should be pressing it on how it is maximising that. The broadcaster admitted its income from commercial activity is up this year, primarily due to big events like the Rugby World Cup. Seeing as RTÉ is coming up with the hand out again, what are the Minister's demands from it with respect to its commercial activity and how it is able to drive and improve its income without making the ask of taxpayer in the first instance? That is my gripe. Reading the statements of both Mr. Bakhurst and Ms Ní Raghallaigh, it seems to be laid at our doorstep; it is as if it is our fault there is an issue with RTÉ.

The environment has changed for RTÉ in an online world. The online platforms have taken a lot of the advertising away from it and there must be recognition of that. I do not want to pre-empt the strategic decisions the director general, who is best placed, is going to make on this. I am focused on our looking to the future and ensuring we have a sustainable model. That will be tied to what he brings to me, but I have to be able to see that high-level strategic vision to inform that.

I appreciate that, but there is an attitude issue here as well. By that I am referring to the handout approach. RTÉ was before the committee earlier in the year, before the scandals happened in the summer. Its managers defended Toy Show The Musical on the basis that they appeared shortly after we had representatives from the arts community. They said we should not be questioning them on Toy Show The Musical as they were doing what we asked them to do and supporting the arts. A failure on a commercial level of over €2 million was defended on the basis that sure RTÉ was supporting the arts. One can call it investment in the arts or a colossal commercial cock-up. I know what I would call it. RTÉ managers would not come in here now with that attitude, or at least I would hope not. Call it what one likes, they ended up coming in here with the hand out looking for us to bail them out. We now have a third Grant Thornton report into it as a result. Should there be a threshold with those decisions such that activities in that sphere are referred to the Minister of the day?

I can understand the frustration about that exact issue, but at all times I as Minister must respect editorial independence in these decisions. What we will expect in future is the transparency and honest discussions and engagements with the committee that I have sought ever since this crisis emerged. That needs to change and change for good. We need to see it as Members of the Oireachtas and the public need to see it too. That is why I feel the independent expert groups, when they make their recommendations, might even add to whatever that strategic vision is. We need robust governance in place, and not just in place but seen to be in place.

I respect the Minister saying that, but the problem is that there is an attitude problem here, in that by respecting those decisions, there is this comfort blanket for RTÉ where its managers can come in, make statements like that and subsequently the new director general comes in and says if we do not bail them out, work with them and help them then we by default accept RTÉ's demise. They cannot have it both ways. It is fundamentally wrong for them to do. I respect and value our State broadcaster, but its managers cannot make monumentally bad commercial decisions and then come in here time after time. Up until this scandal, as has been demonstrated by the complete lack of information given to us, they have treated us with contempt and then they came to the Minister and said "Bail us out".

On that we have to conclude. I thank Senator Cassells. I am now going to call-----

I did not get answer on that point.

Can I answer that?

Briefly, Minister.

We are not, because RTÉ has sought a certain amount and it will not be getting it in the budget until I see evidence things have changed. That includes attitude and participation and respect for both Houses of the Oireachtas, the public and the staff of RTÉ. There were huge corporate governance failures with respect to Toy Show The Musical as well as incredible commercial failure. That cannot be tolerated and will not be tolerated. I think RTÉ's managers know it will never be tolerated again. Part of the way we are charting a future path for the broadcaster is not accepting that ever again in any way, shape or form.

Has the National Union of Journalists, NUJ, been in contact with the Minister's Department-----

Very quickly, Senator Cassells.

----- in respect of the employment freeze or the potential for redundancies within the broadcaster?

No, not since the engagement with it in July.

Okay. Deputy Cannon is next. He has nine minutes-plus at this rate.

Go raibh maith agat a Chathaoirligh. I welcome the Minister and her officials. In her opening remarks she made the suggestion, with which I agree wholeheartedly, that public service media plays a vital role in the well-being of our society and the health of our democracy. I think everyone in this room acknowledges that, which is why we are so deeply concerned about the ongoing difficulties within RTÉ. Something that astounded me in the early days of our questioning of the RTÉ board was the complete disconnect between it and its senior management team. This existed to the point where the then chairperson of the board, Moya Doherty, said at no time during her tenure as chair did she or other members of the board have any knowledge of the issues relating to certain payments and the profoundly serious lack of transparency involved.

Has the Minister had any discussions or conversations with the new Chair who, as she referenced earlier, is only in the job a number of weeks at this point, about how exactly those internal processes of reporting can be changed and reformed so that the board is more acutely aware? I am not asking that the board would micromanage the operation of RTÉ on a daily basis but that the internal reporting processes are much more robust so that the board can have an early account of any likely misdemeanours or other issues arising around funding, financing and the management of those finances.

In fairness, in all of the failings of governance that we have seen, it is important to recognise that RTÉ is engaging with governance reforms of its own now, including the reconstitution of the executive board, the formation of an interim leadership team and changes to how the barter account is operated on foot of the first interim Mazars report. It is strengthening the oversight of the board, particularly in regard to remuneration and strengthening the connection between the interim leadership team and the board. Even in the relationship between the new Chair and the new director general, I see in our meetings that they are co-operating 100% with each other. I see the respect that the interim leadership team has for the board and vice versa. They are in this together, charting a path forward. I see it in my engagement with them and it is important to recognise what has been done to date. They have put their hands up, are recognising the mistakes and failures of the past and are trying to fix that. They realise that it is a crisis too, when it comes to trust in our public service broadcaster. I expect to see more of these reforms in the future.

In relation to the aforementioned valued and vital role of public service media in the well-being of our society and the health of our democracy, that trickles all the way down to local communities nationwide. I will talk later about how we fund public service media in the future, but in the hope that we find a sustainable funding model, what conversations has the Minister had with the newly established Coimisiún na Meán around funding the delivery of public service media at a local level, through local print and broadcast media? What are the Minister's aspirations and ambitions in terms of how we can acknowledge the value of public service media production at a local level and support it in a new world where RTÉ will almost definitely not be the sole provider of public service media in the future?

If we look to the Future of Media Commission report, one of the recommendations relates to a media fund. We already have the Sound and Vision Fund, comprised of 7% of the net television licence take but the recommendation is that there would be a broader media fund of about €30 million. What we would have is support for public service media content, not just on television and radio but also in local newspapers. In last year's budget I secured €6 million in the development of that fund and I will be looking for money again this year. Whatever the future funding model is, there is a recommendation that €30 million be provided to support public service media. Such a fund would replace the Sound and Vision Fund and would have broader media remit. This would enable us to provide support for media in our regions and rural Ireland.

Does the Minister have a general timeline for that? Has it been impacted or impeded by the ongoing controversies within RTÉ itself?

The schemes are in the process of being developed by Coimisiún na Meán. There is a State aid issue at play, which is the only source of delay. There has been a very good level of engagement with Coimisiún na Meán and I have been briefed on this on a very regular basis. As someone from rural Ireland, I know the value of local media and am keen to provide support. It is important to me that we see this through.

In terms of all that has played out within RTÉ, what happens when the Minister goes to colleagues in government seeking to put in place a sustainable and robust funding model for public service broadcasting in the future? Such a funding model is something that Fine Gael wholeheartedly supports. We made a submission to the Future of Media Commission arguing that the television licence fee should be replaced by the creation of an alternative public service media charge, which is something the Minister would also support as I understand it. Has the Minister's capacity to deliver on that and to seek the agreement and support of her Cabinet colleagues been undermined by what has happened at RTÉ? How does she propose to overcome that difficulty? Does she intend to continue engaging with her Cabinet colleagues to seek the development of a long-term, sustainable funding model and has her case or her capacity to deliver on that been undermined by the issues at RTÉ?

In a strange way, although trust has been undermined, in many people's minds here the value of public service broadcasting has only been strengthened.

There is a greater understanding of the absolute need for it and of how critical it is. Of course, we will have to see evidence of reform in RTÉ but we must balance this with ensuring that RTÉ continues to fulfil its public service obligations. The reforms will need to be properly planned and executed when the Government decides on the best approach to this.

The last time the Future of Media Commission went to the Government with a suggestion of an alternative funding model it was rejected by the Government at the time. Recently the Taoiseach, Deputy Varadkar, said this is a nettle that we are going to have to grasp. We are going to have to pass legislation within the lifetime of this Government to provide a firm foundation of sustainable funding for public service media in general. He said that he hopes all of that work will be done next year. I hope that the Minister gets the support of her Cabinet colleagues to make that happen in the shortest possible timeframe and that her capacity to deliver on that has not been undermined by the controversies at RTÉ. That is my main concern.

No, I do not believe it has been undermined. There is an absolute determination now on the part of the three party leaders, the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform, and myself, who were engaging on this before the RTÉ crisis emerged, to deliver. As I said earlier, consecutive Governments have failed on this. This will not be the Government that fails on this; it will be the Government that delivers. Of course, it will need a change to relevant legislation but we will make this decision in the lifetime of this Government and start that process immediately thereafter.

Thanks Deputy Cannon, particularly for sticking to the time. Senator Ahearn is next.

I thank the Minister for being here. She said at the outset that she had full confidence in the board but she gave a strong statement a couple of minutes ago about things the board did that were totally unsatisfactory, especially in terms of its relations with politicians on this committee. What does the board have to do for the Minister to lose confidence in it?

A lot of the changes that have been implemented are what we would have expected to be in place from the very start. The board has shown a determination to chart a path forward, to put the reforms in place that are needed and I have seen a much better relationship now in terms of the respect between the board and the interim leadership team, formerly the executive board.

The ordinary person watching this committee's meetings over the past number of months would ask how the Minister could possibly have confidence in those people. It is a question that we get asked all of the time. We are asked how we can have confidence in the board when its members have been so poor in their answering and so poor in their management over the last few months.

The Minister said to my colleague, Deputy Dillon, that the review is being extended back to 2012 on foot of advice given. Did she ask why it is being extended to 2012?

It is to look at the very origins of the barter account, which originates in 2012. The reviewers want to go back to the very origins of that account.

We have to remember many of the issues we have been dealing with predate the current chair of the board. It is this chair and board that moved very quickly on discovering something in March and made sure that it was examined thoroughly.

Does extending that extend the timing for completing the review? Has the cost increased as well?

No. The two independent examinations will still be completed within the six months.

Will the cost increase?

There might be a slight increase for Mazars, the forensic accountant, but not-----

Has the Minister got that figure yet?

No. It will come in at approximately €300,000 for Mazars. That is what I said.

Is that in total or in addition?

In total. That is for Mazars, which is the forensic accountant.

The Minister said she would not like to see compulsory redundancies. Is that a possibility, however?

I would much prefer that the solution as regards the cost base and future strategic direction can be brought forward without the need for compulsory redundancies. I have made that clear to the DG. At the end of the day, however, it is up to the director general to bring his vision for cost-efficiency forward. I have made it clear what we would not like to see.

Would the Government fund voluntary redundancy, if RTÉ came forward with a strategic plan that would allow it to cut costs but could not afford doing so itself?

Any redundancy programme that would be brought forward would have to be assessed. It would have to include how it might be funded and-----

Is that something that would be considered?

We are talking in the hypothetical. It is something that NewERA would assess, in the hypothetical. As I said, we hope that will not be brought to us but if it is, that is the process that will take place.

Most people would look at it in the sense that we are asking RTÉ to cut costs. Approximately 51% of the cost of running the organisation is staff. How can we do that without affecting staff?

That is for the DG to bring to me. The Government does not make decisions on operational matters. It is for RTÉ to bring those decisions to us. We do not want a government to make decisions on cost-cutting measures for RTÉ. It happens the other way around with RTÉ. It will bring them to us.

As part of the future of RTÉ, is the Minister confident it will support the independent production companies that provide good, independent content for RTÉ? That is obviously a concern. These companies employ people in Ireland. There will be a knock-on effect if RTÉ has less money in terms of things that are being produced and paid for by RTÉ. Is it still key for the Minister that that is supported?

Absolutely. I said that what I hoped for in the future of RTÉ was that focus on independent productions. There is a statutory obligation in respect of independent productions. I met with them two weeks ago and, as I said to Senator Byrne, allayed their fears on that. They will and should be protected. It is a key part of public service.

There is also the support of unscripted production. Is that something the Minister will look to support in future?

That is a matter for RTÉ to decide.

I mean as regards the tax breaks given to unscripted productions under section 481.

I presumed the Senator was talking about section 481. I have not received any proposal on that.

Is it something the Minister will consider, since we are making big changes within RTÉ? Is that something she thinks we should be looking at?

That would be a matter for the Minister for Finance but there is no proposal on the table at the minute.

Has the Minister spoken to Revenue in relation to the licence fee and proposed changes being made to that, including talk of a possible household media charge? Has anyone from the Department had communication with Revenue on how that would work?

Revenue was on the technical working group that was set up to look at the alternative to Exchequer funding. It would very much have linked in.

The Minister said that RTÉ cannot fall. I totally agree with her there. At the same time, we are saying that conditionality would be put in, if we are going to fund it. How do both those statements make sense? RTÉ is putting a proposal to the Minister that it is looking for extra money to keep it going. The Minister is saying these are the conditions for giving RTÉ the money, yet it knows that it will not be let fall anyway. This board does not have a wonderful reputation at the moment. How do we convince the public that we are keeping RTÉ to account when we are essentially saying we will never let RTÉ fall anyway?

You have to look at the quantum of funding. There is what will be provided in the budget in relation to that €16 million recommendation from the Future of Media Commission to make sure it does not fall but, rather than an expectation of receiving the money, the tables have turned and there is now an expectation that RTÉ expects us to put conditionality on it as a direct consequence of what we have seen in this controversy. There will have to be conditionality of some sort. It cannot just be "as you were".

How do we enforce that conditionality if we are essentially saying we will not let RTÉ fall? I am not saying we should, but the ordinary person will say that just does not make sense.

There may be a role for NewERA in that. This is something that we have to investigate in how the funding is released. All of this is being discussed at the minute.

Can the Minister see how there can be confusion in that we are not letting the organisation fall, yet we are putting conditionalities into public funding to support it?

To restore trust, the public would expect that conditionality. Part of that path forward is restoring the trust. It is certainly not just about money. It is about building trust up in something that is invaluable to us as a society.

I thank the Minister for coming in. Senator Cassells asked her what constitutes radical reform. In that context of talking about "radical", has the Minister considered consequences for individual members of the leadership team in RTÉ? There does not appear to have been any consequences for the individual leadership in RTÉ over that whole debacle. In fact, only one person lost their job and that person was on contract. Everybody else seems to be just getting on with it. They have to change the processes they use, and they have to look to change the culture, but there have been no consequences for individual leaders in RTÉ. If we are talking about radical reform, surely that must be considered. Has the Minister considered real consequences for the individuals who carried out or oversaw this particular debacle?

As I said, I can understand that frustration at the apparent lack of consequences but when it comes to accountability, it is about the participation and engagement with the Oireachtas and expert advisory committees. That is why we need key people in this controversy, when they are in better health, to engage to help restore the trust in a body they say they absolutely respect and cherish.

There are still a lot of key people there who will continue to change the process, but will still head off into the sunset with a big pension at the end of it all.

Unfortunately, there are legal complexities in relation to pension requirements that we simply cannot crossover into. That is just the fact of the legal complexities there. All I can do is urge all relevant individuals to engage.

The current leadership, which was there during the debacle and controversy, is still there. In terms of future organisation, will the Minister put in place a mechanism where there are consequences?

Will the Minister put in place consequences for individual RTÉ leadership if something like this were to happen again?

I would point the Deputy to the fact we have a new chair of the board. The executive has been replaced with an interim leadership team and with a new DG. It is not for me to interfere with operational matters of the day-to-day business but maybe this is something that will emerge from the expert advisory groups in relation to culture and governance. There may well be recommendations there and I will discuss those with my Cabinet colleagues.

I suppose it is particularly hard to watch leadership continue on as if nothing had happened other than changing their work practices and trying to change the culture in RTÉ. Nothing has happened to them and I hear back from people, as I am sure the Minister does, that it sticks in their craw.

That is something I can feed into those expert groups, that is, the concern emerging from this committee about the lack of consequences. I could ask them to give consideration to that. As I said, there is regular contact - a few times per week - and engagement with those expert groups so I can do that on foot of this committee meeting.

I thank the Minister.

I thank the Minister, as always, for attending and answering questions. Many of the issues have been highlighted already and answered quite thoroughly. I will use my time to try to delve a bit further into some of the questions that have already been asked.

I will start with a continuation of Deputy Andrews's questions in relation to the makeup of the executive board. There is an overlap between the existing executive board and the previous executive board, many of whom oversaw what we have seen transpire in RTÉ over the past number of months. Does the Minister have any concerns about the fact of that overlap?

It is no longer an executive board; it is an interim leadership team. From what I have seen take place in terms of reform and of having proper processes in place under the leadership of the DG with this new leadership team, it gives me confidence in them and allays concerns.

Is the Minister happy or would she not have preferred to see a complete clear out of the previous executive board because of what it presided over? The fact this new board is now left with the task of presiding over this new strategic plan and a complete overhaul and regaining of trust, would it have sat better with the Minister if there had been a complete overhaul and a clearing out, for want of a better term?

Regarding the executive board and the new interim leadership team, the Deputy has to remember that under the legislation my direct relationship is with the chair of the board, not with the executive, and it would not be appropriate for me to comment on that.

I had hoped to get the Minister's view or opinion on this but she-----

While I am the line Minister it is very hard to get my personal opinion on something without it being then perceived as my official opinion on something, to be fair.

That will make the rest of my questions pretty difficult because there will be a lot of those types of questions.

I can see why the Deputy comes from a fishing community.

I was not any good at that either. In terms of the interim funding, I know the Minister said she is bound by pending reports and discussions with Cabinet. Can we have some type of ballpark figure because the Irish citizens want to know the nature of what will be required to keep RTÉ afloat. Obviously, there are staff within RTÉ as well who are very concerned. We have talked about the ask of €34 million. We have heard about something in the region of €50 million to €60 million. Is there any way the Minister could give the committee, which has really taken this issue on and tried to highlight many of the issues within RTÉ and the future of media in general, a ballpark figure of where it lies between that ask of €34 million and the ask of between €50 million and €60 million that we have also heard about.

I cannot, in the week leading up to budget because they will be the negotiations we will be having.

Will it be more than €34 million?

I would be open to revealing the figure after the budget, the recommendation from NewERA, but in fairness while negotiations are under way with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, that would not be appropriate. I am open to revealing that figure, as recommended by NewERA, once-----

Will the Minister at least confirm whether it will be more than the €34 million ask?

It may steer the Deputy in some way, but I pointed to the €16 million Future of Media Commission recommendation, which is similar to the €15 million last year, and that is what I will most likely seek in the budget. I said that for anything above that I would need to see the strategic vision which would probably indicate there is an amount above €16 million. However, I cannot go into the details of that while I am in those discussions with the Minister.

Again, this is something other committee members have touched on and relates to the cost-cutting exercise which the Minister welcomed. Obviously, we need to see prudence and efficiencies within RTÉ. At the same time, if there is a massive focus on cost cutting, I can imagine it is the regular RTÉ staff who have worked so hard for the organisation who have probably been the most negatively impacted by what transpired over the past number of months and whose morale is pretty low at the moment. Do we have any idea of where this cost cutting is coming in? Can we use this session as an opportunity to reassure hardworking staff that their jobs are safe and that their salaries will be maintained, but also that the level of programming and content we expect to see from RTÉ will remain in place?

There are two questions there. I have said that we would like the solutions to RTÉ's cost base and future strategic direction to be without the need for compulsory redundancies. We do not want to see that. I have conveyed that concern to the DG. It is for the DG to come to us with a strategic vision and with those cost efficiencies. It is not for the Government or for me, as Minister, to suggest what should be put in place.

The DG has said he does not want to go down the road of compulsory redundancies. He is engaging with staff. I will meet him this week and I will ask him to continue that engagement and to allay fears where possible. I am waiting for him to set out in greater detail those activities and the likely cost base for the next five years. I hope to see that in the coming weeks.

If there was talk about salary cuts, for example, and I am not assuming or predicting anything that may come in the recommendations from the DG, surely the Minister would prefer to see those salary cuts happen at the top end of those earners who are earning large figures as opposed to the staff in RTÉ who really have been impacted by this in a negative way and that their salaries would be maintained and sustained.

The fact that I broadened and created a second expert committee on foot of my engagement with the staff and the unions shows the respect I have for the staff, the unions, and their concerns. The DG said he is not looking at that but whatever cost cuts he is thinking of, he has to also think of the proper delivery of quality. There are public service obligations. Again, it is not for me to make those decisions it is up to the DG to come to me with them.

In terms of the big picture and the future funding of media and of RTÉ, this is something this committee has been focused on. We have waited patiently for a decision on this and we have waited patiently for a steer on what direction the future of media will be and how it will be funded. There is the whole question of the licence fee versus device fee versus funding from the general Exchequer. There are so many stakeholders who are very eager to get an answer to this and I know the Minister said earlier she hoped to have a decision on that in March but then the whole saga with RTÉ unfolded and that delayed things.

I will underline one thing; the sooner we make a decision on this, no matter how politically unpopular it may be, the better. We have to grasp this nettle.

It is not just a matter for RTÉ, but it is in everybody's interest that we keep this famous institution alive and that it continues to do the work it has done over the decades with quality public broadcasting. Yet, it is important people know where they stand.

The Minister indicated already that there may be a decision. I think she said, in a response to Senator Malcolm Byrne, it would be in the new year . The question I have for the Minister is about an opinion I would love to hear from her. We have heard from Senator Malcolm Byrne as a committee member, who indicated his preference. He felt it should be funded by the general Exchequer. I think the Tánaiste has expressed a different opinion and he would fear for the independence of the organisation if it were to be funded by the Exchequer. I would love to hear from the Minister. Between those three most obvious options, what would her preference be for how RTÉ funds the future of media? Would it be through a licence fee, a device fee or through general Exchequer funding?

Again, I do not think it would be wise for me, as the Minister with responsibility for media, to pre-empt those discussions. It is a matter that will require detailed consideration by the Government. What is really important, and what I am determined to do, is grasp the nettle to ensure we have that sustainable funding model for RTÉ, as well as to make sure we have a solid funding base for the public service broadcaster. There must also be the provision of public service content for all, including radio, television, print and online. I am determined to do that, but I just do not think-----

Would the Minister at least say it? The Tánaiste said that he would fear for the independence of RTÉ if it were to be funded directly from general Exchequer funding. Does the Minister share that opinion? Would she share Senator Malcolm Byrne’s opinion?

What I said earlier is that the technical working group looked at the alternative to an Exchequer funding model. That is why it was set up; we did not take that one recommendation from the Future of Media Commission. Indeed, the recommendations by the Future of Media Commission were from a different time as well, because they were contingent on a different drop-off rate on television licence payments. We are now in a much different area when it comes to that. I am of the opinion that in those discussions everything should be back on the table. To my mind, the emergence of this crisis has changed that. This is not just about the technical working group; everything is on the table.

I welcome all our witnesses today. I will begin by posing a question to the Minister. I presume she has seen all the previous hearings we had with the RTÉ board and that she has been following them all. I know they were 20 hours of our lives that we will never get back. However, the Minister saw the questioning, the responses and glaring failures in corporate governance that were exposed here by numerous members of the committee through their questioning. The public saw that as well, and that explains an awful lot the fall-off of the television licence fee renewal figures. Does the Minister understand that there needs to be consequences for the board before the State and the taxpayer ploughs more money into RTÉ?

Consequences for whom?

The public does not have confidence in the people who were before the committee, due to the questions they answered, how they answered them, and the glaring failures that were there. Does the Minister see where there was a problem? If the Government is going to now bail out RTÉ, the public is looking at their money going into this organisation where there were clearly huge failings in oversight from the committee. Does the Minister understand there is a huge problem there?

Yes. That is why it is down to all of us to work together to chart that path forward. We know the absolute value of public service broadcasting in these times. Now more than ever, real-quality content and reliable information are needed. Through the revelations of the good work of these committees, the public’s confidence has been shattered, as has trust. We see that in what is happening with the television licence fall off. That is why it is really important that we look forward now to seeing robust governance in place and to seeing the measures-----

Does the Minister think that the team that has failed to date should be left in place? That is the point I am making. They have clearly failed on a number of fronts. The remuneration committee, for example, did not meet. There was the issue of the audit and risk committee. There were really poor governance standards. Should that team be left in place? Does the public not deserve a better team to oversee their money?

It is under the new chair that we are seeing these reforms being brought forward, as well as how these processes and proper governance will take place. Unfortunately, it is the case that they are fixing what should have always been in place. We need to see more than just fixing what should have been happening all along. Yet, I have confidence in the board to chart the way forward.

Even as recently as three weeks ago when the RTÉ board and some executive members were before the committee, I asked a question about a movie show that was produced a number of years ago. I asked the assistant director general why the documents that were provided to this committee had been so heavily redacted. I asked if he was involved in that process and he was, even though he was also a producer on that show in a previous employment, prior to his involvement in RTÉ. Does the Minister think that type of behaviour is acceptable? In light of everything we have heard, and this point continues that point, that does not shout out to me that there is a culture change in RTÉ. I found it very uncomfortable that it would have happened. Yet, this was acceptable on the witnesses’ side of the committee room on the last day they were before the committee. That does not give me confidence that things are changing.

It is a matter for the director general to see what will happen in those situations in the future. Again, with the greatest respect to the Deputy, we have to move forward and stop focusing on the wrongs of the past. Of course, we have to see the wrongs of the past, but we must move forward or else we will undermine public service broadcasting for all of society.

That is the point I am getting to. I do not think the public are prepared to move forward until they are confident that their money will be overseen correctly. That is the problem. That is what people are saying to me in my constituency and to Senator Ahearn in his constituency. The public have seen enough of these hearings. They feel there needs to be a radical change in personnel, particularly at a board level, because the board was asleep on the job. Let us call a spade a spade.

That is why I feel that the external examinations that I set up so quickly are a huge piece of the puzzle to restore the trust. It is why there is a message to the public that a large amount has been sought by RTÉ in this budget, and they will not be receiving it all. This is because we are looking not just the high-level strategic vision, but getting to the end of the year and seeing the actual implementation plan-----

Should the changes happen before the money is handed over? That is what I am saying. I think that is what should happen. The changes should happen before the Government-----

There is an actual commitment agreed by Government last year on the figures recommended by the Future of Media Commission. That is all that will be. That is that €16 million, just like it was €15 million. As the Deputy knows, however, they have sought much more than that.

I am asking the Minister, before the State gives any more money to RTÉ, if she think the obvious changes need to be made. The board failed. There was board capture. Should the Minister not take the initiative and change the personnel, because they failed? The public need confidence in terms of where their money is going and that it is being spent properly.

The Deputy has to remember that it is under the watch of this board that we are actually seeing everything being interrogated. It is this board that identified the issue in March. It is this board that then sought Grant Thornton to investigate it. It revealed on 22 June the culmination of that investigation. Its chair has not even been in place for a year; it will be a year in November. New appointments will be made to the board. I am engaging with the Public Appointments Service, PAS, at the minute. There will be changes.

Yet, much of that board is made up of people who were also there when all this was happening, and they did not spot it.

Can I ask the Minister about last March? What was the precise sequence of events when she was informed of difficulties and issues in RTÉ?

The Secretary General was informed by the chair of the board that they had discovered an issue in regard to something in the regular audit of the RTÉ 2022 annual accounts. At the time, the chair said she had no insight or no clear detail on what it was.

She said it would be inappropriate to speculate and told us she had asked for Grant Thornton to investigate the issue and would get back to me when that report was completed.

Does the Minister feel that the committee should have been informed at that stage of these issues? The chair was at the committee on 19 April and there was no mention of Grant Thornton or any of these issues on that day.

She was very clear on that day that she simply did not have the detail and that it would be inappropriate to speculate. One has to have all the facts. I was waiting for those facts from the Grant Thornton report. The Taoiseach said at the time that he agreed with the way in which that was handled and there was no point in talking and speculating about something that might or might not be. One waits for the facts and then moves. As soon as we had the facts, I moved very quickly to set up the independent expert groups.

Prior to March, before this came to the Minister's attention, how often did she meet the chair - both Ms Ní Raghallaigh and the former chair, Ms Doherty?

Two or three times a year. I can pass that information on to Deputy Griffin at the end.

What was the nature of the discussions, typically?

Ms Ní Raghallaigh only came into the role in November, so it was an introduction and concerns that may have been raised at this committee in relation to certain things in RTÉ. The funding model was also a big issue.

Did the Minister ever express concerns about salaries in RTÉ at the stage?

When RTÉ came looking for money and it pays these astronomical wages to "top talent" - it is a terrible term - would Deputy Martin, as the representative of the people and as the Minister, not have questioned RTÉ about that?

The engagement was in relation to the funding. I stated that I was very disappointed that I was not told about the restoration of executives' pay while I was in the process of engaging with RTÉ about interim funding last year. That was a big disappointment and not good enough, to come and seek money while restoring pay and not making me aware of that while I was negotiating with the Minister. I made that clear.

Did the Minister discuss with the chair the importance of the Oireachtas being able to question key people in the organisation and the need to avoid dismissal prior to the Oireachtas being able to establish the full facts?

Absolutely. I engaged with the Chair of this committee on foot of feedback from the committee. I said I was committed to keeping that engagement with the chair, emphasising that RTÉ needed to engage with the committee in a very transparent manner. In relation to those salaries, it is not a matter for me to engage in that sort of micro-managing of salaries. That is why I would not raise that issue. It is not part of my remit as Minister.

Does the Minister believe that the board was wrong to dismiss the former director general before the Oireachtas had an opportunity to ask her questions? This dismissal occurred after we publicly expressed our interest in asking the same person questions.

I was aware that she had been suspended and that she resigned but it is not-----

The board sought her resignation, as was established in this committee.

Yes but it is not the resignation but ill health that has prevented her from participating in this committee. I have been very clear that she needs to participate in and engage with this committee as soon as she returns to good health. A key figure like her is needed to shed light on this situation.

I wish her a speedy recovery. Not being in situ in the post which she previously held makes it difficult for this committee to ever establish those facts. That is a result of the board's actions.

Her term was due to expire in early July either way. I hope that there will be engagement when she returns to good health.

Regarding bogus self-employment, how much has been set aside by RTÉ to settle that issue?

We do not have that detail yet. I can raise it with the director general. I will meet him again this week.

Will the Minister furnish the details to the committee? We understand it will run to multiples of millions at this stage. This leads me on to my next question. Has the Minister referred matters pertaining to RTÉ to the Revenue Commissioners arising from this most recent scandal?

No. That is not for me to do; it is for Revenue.

Is the Minister aware of any inquiries being made by the Revenue Commissioners into RTÉ outside of the bogus self-employment matter?

It has not communicated whether or not that is happening. Has the Minister asked if that is happening?

That would not be communicated with me. I have not received any communication.

It is important.

If Deputy Griffin is aware of something he can bring it to our attention.

With all due respect, I am not the Minister. I do not have those direct lines.

I am just saying I have not been. The Deputy may have some awareness of something, if he wants to bring it to my attention.

No, I am asking if Revenue is looking into matters in RTÉ other than bogus self-employment, arising from this. Has the Minister discussed it with the chair or has it come to the Minister's attention?

It has not been brought to my attention. I do not think Revenue would bring that to my attention either.

Has the Minister asked the chair that question?

It has not arisen, no. I will meet the chair this week.

Will the Minister establish that for the committee? It would be interesting for us to know if that is the case. It is in the public interest.

I will get back to the committee about that.

I am sorry I missed some of the session. I had a meeting I could not avoid with a group. I welcome the Minister. I was here for her opening address. I am very circumspect about the whole situation. The public is aghast. I sympathise totally with the very good workers in RTÉ - hundreds of them are doing their best all the time. This is a shocking scandal and we cannot question the director general. The boards - I am very careful when I say "boards" - sought that resignation and put it beyond our reach in the committee. Following up on Deputy Griffin's point, in the first meeting we had with the group from RTÉ, what I learned from that day was that it spent €1.4 million, I think, on settling with Revenue. It answered some of the questions. It said it had probably four times that much, which would go to €5 million or €6 million. Everyone running a company, including me - I am involved in a company - has to be upfront with Revenue. If we did anything like this, we would not have the luxury of having a fund put away to settle wrongdoing we did with Revenue. Revenue would be on top of us and so would the Criminal Assets Bureau, CAB and the fraud squad. The sheriffs would be calling - they would get their cut out of it too. It is happening to businesses every day of every week, unfortunately, especially since the downturn in the economy and now since Covid again. Why is RTÉ being treated like a sacred cow? Deputy Martin is the Minister in charge. At the very start - the Chair knows my views - I asked for the fraud squad to go in. We are not prepared - I speak for myself - we are not equipped to ask. We could not listen to them anyway, we were not getting answers. They could not understand my language. That is fair enough. They got away with that one. In plain, straight, simple language, how can RTÉ have a contingency fund put away of up to €6 million, as I garnered from that first meeting, to make settlements with Revenue? There have already been settlements.

The treatment of staff there is another question. A few years ago a lady was forced off a programme because she was 65. I found out when I asked questions of Dee Forbes and Ms Carney that day that it had made a court settlement with somebody else for unfair dismissal - a female. That is shocking carry-on when males were getting extensions up to 70 years. What the hell is going on in there? I do not see how we can give them another shilling or euro until such a time as there is accountability, answers and honesty. We are not getting honesty or the truth. I do not know what answers the Minister gave earlier but from what I heard of her address, she was going to give RTÉ interim funding. It should not get a penny. Imagine putting away up to €6 million for anticipated settlements for wrong, bogus employment.

If I did that in my company, or anybody else did, we would be prosecuted. This sacred cow cannot be allowed to do this and I would like to hear the Minister's response.

As I said in my opening address, it is clear that there has been a shocking level of failure in governance and culture in RTÉ. That is why I have set in place two expert committees. It is not for me, as Minister, to direct revenue. On the governance issue, an expert advisory group is in place and it is looking at RTÉ's governance framework and organisational culture, is examining the system of internal governance, and is making recommendations on the changes which are needed to help restore trust.

Indeed, with regard to staff the Deputy has mentioned, my engagement with unions and the staff led to me broadening the scope to include a second examination that will review various matters including contractors' fees, HR, the use of short-term employment contracts at all levels and the employment terms and conditions. It will look at gender equality issues with regard to the existing recruitment and HR practices.

The scope investigation is a matter for the Department of Social Protection and RTÉ.

On the interim funding, it is widely known that there is an ask from RTÉ. I have said that NewERA has made a recommendation on that. I cannot actually reveal what that recommendation is but suffice to say that RTÉ will not be getting the full extent of its ask until I see the strategic vision, and evidence of reform and cost efficiencies.

I am not asking the Minister about that. As I said, there has been ongoing and persistent discrimination against female people who work in RTÉ. One took a court case which cost €1.4 million. This did not cost RTÉ but cost the taxpayer, as I pointed out at the time.

I would like to speak about the extent of the baked and naked fraud which has gone on with respect of bogus employment. RTÉ has a contingency, and my understanding of the figures may be different from what Deputy Griffin knows. Perhaps it may be more. It is four times the €1.4 million which RTÉ had paid out. It had settlements which could be €6 million. How much more money is involved? The public has no confidence in any semblance of fairness or respect for the junior staff or middle management in RTÉ. Now it is coming back looking for this kind of money. I would not give it any funding whatsoever until it comes clean and apologises. It has not apologised in a correct way, which shows that it understands the need for a proper governance structure and for respect. We can see that some very good programmes, such as “RTÉ Investigates”, are made. How will “Prime Time” investigate RTÉ? I acknowledge that all the journalists in RTÉ, including the senior journalists, have been very good at handling this debacle since it started but who will investigate the “Prime Time” investigators? Who is going to get to the bottom of the shabby, disgraceful and illegal practices which have gone on there, including the shabby and totally unacceptable treatment of female staff, some of whom were forced to go to the courts? When I raised that issue with senior management, I was treated with disdain. I complimented the two ladies on reaching the top in RTÉ but I could not understand how there could be such disrespect for other female staff.

That is exactly why I have two expert groups in place. The Deputy is asking me who is going to get to the bottom of it. I moved to do this in 48 hours. To address specifically what the Deputy has raised, I put a particular emphasis on gender equality in respect of the HR and contractor fees. I asked the group in the terms of reference to put a particular emphasis on gender equality. I expect to have those reports within six months. That is at the end of the year or early January. These are the people who are doing the investigating which the Deputy is seeking. These are independent experts and I believe that is the report the Deputy is waiting for.

I am not waiting for any report because I want to-----

The Deputy is seeking an investigation and I am saying that it is happening. It is under way, it is independent and it has experts.

We knew in 2007 about the height of the salaries scandal which was going on there, ever since the time of a Government that included the Minister’s party as a partner. I was on the Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources at the time and we knew, as did the dogs on the street. I am asking now who is keeping account of the financial cost of the two pretty big companies and financial houses who will be producing these expensively done reports. We have got flooded with paper and reports. It is a total smothering job. Now we have these expert groups, as the Minister has mentioned. The cost of all this is mounting in an ongoing fashion. I have no faith in these groups obtaining honesty, truth and fair play for the staff in there. They will want to move on with business as usual and to tell the committee whatever. We set deadlines when we asked for questions to be answered and to have the answers so far in advance of our meetings. I refused to come to our last meeting because we only received the answers the night before. There were hundreds if not thousands of pages of stuff. The way we are being treated with those reports is a sham.

I inform the Deputy that these are independent reports. RTÉ is not doing them. I have set up independent experts. I know that the Deputy has genuine concerns for the staff. The staff and the trade unions welcomed the expert committee that is specifically dealing with this, have welcomed this report and are looking forward to its recommendations.

I thank the Minister but I have no faith in these independents. They are not independent because this is too small a place. We needed somebody from outside of Ireland to come in to see what is happening here.

We have someone from outside Ireland on one of those expert groups, Stephen Smith.

I hope they are in the majority. We need outside personnel who are fully away from anybody in this country because it is too small a place. You scratch my back and I will scratch-----

That is why I put in somebody from outside and I would point out to the Deputy again-----

-----that the unions and the staff welcomed the setting up of this group, the terms of reference and the personnel on the group.

They may have but I have no faith in it because it should be a total departure from the financial houses we have here. They have done reports for other companies-----

These people have not done reports. These were set up explicitly and specifically-----

I certainly hope not.

I do not know who they are. I wish them well. I mean no disrespect to them but we need people from outside who are not connected with media in this country and have nothing to do with it. One person on this committee is not going to do it. I am opposed to giving a shilling or a euro until such time as we have decency, transparency and answers, and not the dumping which RTÉ did on top of us with its reports only hours before the committee was to sit.

I agree with the Deputy on that, which is why an independent group is carrying out this investigation and why it has been well received by the staff and the unions.

I thank the Minister and the Deputy very much. I have to move on. I have given the Deputy his full allocation of time, and more beyond that.

I thank the Chair very much. I welcome the Minister and thank her for her work. Her Department and her Ministry is generally considered to be one of positive news and one which, with the clear guidance of the Minister, always had a fairly straightforward run. That was clearly not the case in this instance on this side of her brief and she has gone through a very difficult time. This committee, and others, have been actively involved in getting to the root of what has happened at RTÉ and that has been to the benefit of the future of public service broadcasting, hopefully.

I also believe those of us in public life have a responsibility to leave that now to the committees which the Minister has established. I have full faith in what she is attempting to do and I expect, as professionals, that they will deliver on that.

Where I have some concern is that the debate within the Oireachtas has not moved to a point of asking where we go from here. While I often agree and sometimes disagree with my friend, Deputy Mattie McGrath, it cannot be that we just do not give RTÉ any money until those reports are brought to a fruition. If we do that, the whole thing stops there.

I am taken by the extent to which people are rightly upset about what has happened and have decided for various different reasons to send a message by not paying their licence fee. They are still, however, consuming the product. RTÉ is still delivering every day, from senior management to the people who open the doors every day. The content gets out there thanks to the people I meet working on the broadcasting areas, the rigs, the vans and the cameras. They are all doing their work. There is, for sure, a problem and we have to get to the bottom of it. The State has to stand behind the public service broadcaster in a manner which ensures it continues.

I believe we need to move the debate quickly towards what we believe to be public service broadcasting. I would like to understand a little bit more from the Minister because I see a chicken-and-egg situation here. The Minister is saying to the director general to give her a report and that she will then decide if she will fund the organisation, or fund it to a particular tune. I suspect that if we drill into what the director general said here at the committee on the last day, it is difficult to know what kind of a strategic direction one can have unless one knows what money one has in order to do that. That is one point.

The second point is on cost-cutting.

A headline takeaway from the Minister's script - I was just perusing the social media and mainstream media - is that RTÉ must show a commitment to reducing its costs. That can be interpreted in many ways. To get confidence back, we have to see that RTÉ does not waste taxpayers' money and that we do not see money being wasted anymore in the outrageous ways we have seen. The amounts were relatively small in the overall budget but they were damaging because of what they were spent on, the club in London, the sandals, and so on. We all know about those now. It takes between €350 million and €400 million to run RTÉ, which it gets from the licence fee and commercial revenue. If we are trying to cut costs from the overall budget in the middle of an inflationary cycle - staffing costs and the cost of energy and so on will go up - what is the baseline? Should we be saying we need to see better value for the money we are spending rather than that €50 million less will be spent next year? Is it not true that it will probably cost more to run RTÉ next year than it did last year as costs are going up but that we will get better value for money because we will not have the wanton waste?

When I talk to people behind the curtain in RTÉ, they say some of the systems are creaking. It has not been able to invest in technology to the extent it should. It is losing the race on digital development. When the director general was before the committee, he made it clear that cutting discretionary spending would immediately impact on the digital agenda. We cannot measure RTÉ against the amount of money. We must give some direction around what we want RTÉ to look like. What is the future of public service broadcasting in a digital era? Will we transition it away from the broadcast, which a lot fewer people are watching than in the past? The number is dropping every week. People are consuming television in a different format. If we are to have the bedrock to protect our democracy, we need to get RTÉ, as a public service broadcaster, into the digital space so that trusted content and news are available and there is respect for our heritage, culture and creative skills. I would like to get a sense from the Minister of what she is looking for in return for saying it is okay to spend money and that she is prepared to back RTÉ. What kind of direction is she giving on reshaping?

The Minister said earlier - I had to leave so I did not hear all she said - that she knew what she did not want to see. Perhaps she could help by telling the committee what she would like see.

I absolutely agree with the Senator. I said at the beginning that invaluable work has been done by the two committees, but we need to chart a path forward now as what we could lose is too valuable to our democracy and society. What I said earlier was that, on the higher level, I would like to see a vision of a trustworthy broadcaster that provides quality content that reflects the diversity of our society, that it is done in a cost-effective way, and that RTÉ is there to inform, educate and entertain. I will be meeting the director general and Ms Ní Raghallaigh this week, as I did two weeks ago, to discuss what I hope to see, as the Senator said, not just what I do not want to see, and to discuss the strategic vision. I also agree with the Senator that what we really need to see is efficiencies, doing more with what RTÉ has, stopping the waste and investing. I would like to see a focus on digital services, which are critical to moving forward and future proofing. I would like to see a focus on independent productions. It goes without saying that I want to see robust governance. As I have said throughout this meeting, much of the robust governance should have been in place in any case. We need a focus on digital services and independent productions. I am not seeking cuts to be imposed for the sake of imposing cuts. I do not want RTÉ saying, "We will cut here. Are you happy? Will you give us money now?" That is not what I wish for. That would be a disservice to public service broadcasting.

What I am trying to get at is, we have a little experience of it in the Oireachtas in that, when the financial crash happened in the late noughties, the public expected to see cuts to our salaries and that put many people in the Oireachtas under enormous pressure. Gradually, the salaries made it back. The salaries are considered to be high, but it can be a huge disincentive for people to think their salaries will be cut, even at middle or upper management level. Some people might end up leaving and that is the last thing we want. For sure, the talent thing has to be targeted. The director general indicated to the committee that he is already dealing with that. However, the message needs to come from the Government to staff across the board in RTÉ that it is not only about putting them to the pin of their collars and forcing them to move home because they cannot continue to pay their mortgages. People are worried about that at a time when we need everyone in RTÉ to step up to the plate, turn the ship around, get the culture back on track, move the organisation forward into a different space, change management and all of that. If they are looking over their shoulders and there is an expectation that there will be a 5% or 10% cut in salaries, it will be difficult to do. I wonder what or where-----

That is where the ongoing engagement with staff is critical. I will raise it with the director general again this week, as I have at every meeting. The message needs to be that what we are looking for is, as I said, not imposing cuts for the sake of being seen to cut but rather stopping the waste and inefficiencies that have been identified and using the money to invest where needed to future-proof. RTÉ must identify where the money should go, where the supports are needed and how to future-proof our public service broadcaster. It needs to stop the waste and invest.

Yes, the issue is the same here. If parliamentarians had to pay to come through the gates of Leinster House, some people on Twitter would want us to pay more every week. It is the same in RTÉ. If the average wage was cut to €20,000, it would not be enough for a certain group on Twitter, so we cannot allow that negativity to drive the agenda. We have to support the 1,800 people in RTÉ to build a future.

The Minister's message is clear, that RTÉ must address the wanton waste that has been identified and show us where it wants to take the organisation to best meet the needs of society through public service broadcasting.

I agree. There is an onus on each Member of the Oireachtas to help to chart the way forward and move things on, as the Senator is doing.

It is my turn now. Then we will have time for a quickfire round at the end. I will pick up on some of the points some of my colleagues made and tease them out a little further. Senator Byrne raised the issue of the commercial arm of RTÉ versus its public service broadcasting obligation. It is problematic that there is no clear delineation of where funding goes. It is all mixed into one pot. Will the Minister share her reflections on that for RTÉ's future? Does she have a problem with it?

The dual-funded model is the issue.

I know that is to its advantage, but when it all goes in together, we do not have sight of the clear delineation between the two and how moneys are spent.

RTÉ is obliged to set out exactly how it allocates its TV licence funding. There is clarity on that. It is set out in its annual report, so we have clarity on where that money goes. It shows a breakdown in expenditure for public service activities, individual channels or services and how much of the TV licence funding is allocated to each service. We have clarity on that. Although it is a complex dual-funded model, there is clarity in the breakdown of expenditure of TV licence funding in the annual report. As part of the oversight arrangements in my Department, regular financial reports are provided by RTÉ. They are reviewed and examined by NewERA. Unfortunately we cannot interrogate RTÉ about individual transactions. The aim is rather to understand RTÉ's overall funding position.

That television licence expenditure is clearly set out in the annual report.

Okay, so you are happy with that aspect of things.

Obviously, Minister, you would have listened in very attentively to all the hearings we held. As you know, my colleagues put many hours not just into committee meetings but also into the preparation, which was enormous. The secretariat put many hours into all that. When Ms Doherty came in here and I asked her about her knowledge of what was going on, she made the assertion that she knew absolutely nothing. She was chair from 2014 until 2022, an eight-year reign in respect of which we can only assume certain matters. For example, the barter account was established in 2012, so that was fully up and running for the duration of her term. Obviously, she has been your point of contact for you, as Minister, for the past three years, since you have been Minister, and for your predecessor. She was the point of contact for the Minister and the Department to be fully informed and she comes in here and says, "I knew nothing." How did you feel about that?

You are absolutely right to make that point. That is the direct relationship with me and RTÉ - it is through the chair - and it is quite astounding that that is-----

Do you believe her?

Well, I have to take her at her word, but what this points to is astounding, astonishing weaknesses.

Do you believe she could walk down the corridors of RTÉ for the past eight years and know none of this to be happening underneath her nose?

I have to take Ms Doherty at her word, that she would respect the Oireachtas, including this joint committee, and-----

She was a leadership figure for a board, and that conduit was communicating with you and the executive. It is problematic that RTÉ would establish itself as an executive board. I think that is gone. It should be gone. It should never have been there. In my view - I do not know whether or not my colleagues would agree - and from the hearings we had, they saw themselves as above the board that was appointed. They saw themselves as above being accountable to you, Minister, above being accountable to the Department-----

Yes, and the-----

-----and even to us as a committee. I do not think anybody would disagree. All we ever got from them was lip service.

And the title points to that, but also in the-----

Can you be confident that that executive board is completely disbanded?

Yes, I would be confident of that, but also, it added to the confusion in the first few weeks-----

Of course it did.

-----that there were two boards and people were trying to grapple with it.

It said a lot, though, about where they were living in their own heads.

Yes. What I see now is that complete breakdown in respect for each other, the executive board and the board, respect for the board that comes under me, with the direct relationship with the chair. I have seen that turned around completely, a full 360°, in what I am seeing with the DG and the chair. There is a strong relationship and they have put in measures to help strengthen the relationship.

Time will tell.

Mr. Rory Coveney came in here and we tried to interrogate a little with him around Toy Show: The Musical. Minister, you and I both know, as other colleagues do, coming from an arts background, that €2 million is a staggering figure to be spent on a musical. When we tried to probe that first, Mr. Coveney said to me that it was commercially sensitive and that he could not answer the question. He was told that was not going to wash any more. When we drilled down a little more into the detail and got figures, which we should have had the first day, his answer to me was that it made no material difference to the finances within RTÉ. How would you reflect on such a comment? I know it is all over and done with, but I am just curious because you are the Minister and you were listening in to all that. I was astonished and shocked. A sum of €2 million is huge money to anybody in any organisation. Anybody from the arts world listening in, I am sure, felt extremely upset to hear that because we know, and I am sure you do too, the impact that had on the arts and the creative industries all across Dublin at the time.

Yes. There was a lot of disquiet about that at the time. I am aware of that. That is why I am glad the audit and risk committee of the board commissioned the Grant Thornton report to carry out a detailed review into the full circumstances. We need to get to the bottom of this and the facts surrounding the approval of that.

I will stop you there, Minister, because I have a few more questions I want to get through.

The committee will have that in the coming weeks.

We are aware that some of your inquiries are looking at contractors going into RTÉ and representing de facto members of staff of RTÉ. They have contractors, they have extracted themselves from being paid members of staff of RTÉ, but we are talking about the top talent, for example, who are represented by contractors outside RTÉ. I assume you find that problematic because you have commissioned one of your reports around that as well as the culture of contractors walking into RTÉ and negotiating extortionate figures for certain members of RTÉ. I ask you to reflect on that now. What are your thoughts on that?

I did find it problematic, and that is on foot of my engagement with the staff and the unions a few days after this controversy emerged. That is why, as you can understand, originally, within 48 hours, I announced the independent review into the governance structures. On foot of that engagement with the staff, I set up a second committee because of my concerns, and I hope it gets to the bottom of this and puts in a-----

Do you think that is a way in which RTÉ can operate into the future?

We will await the recommendations, but I had sufficient concerns to set up a separate committee just to examine this thoroughly and I put the people with the expertise on it.

When will that conclude?

The same as the other one, by January, in six months.

On a different matter, I had the pleasure of meeting this morning with the Press Council and the Press Ombudsman, Susan McKay, and she raised a very interesting question. We talk a huge amount about funding for public service broadcasting into the future. We talk about broadcasting. What are your thoughts on how the print media should be funded into the future?

The Future of Media Commission report last year - members would have copies of it - has recommended the replacement of the Sound and Vision fund with €30 million for media, which would include not just radio and television but print and online as well. Until we get the future funding model, last year I ring-fenced, under the recommendations, €6 million to look at, first, local court reporting and local democracy. We are devising those schemes right now in consultation with the key stakeholders in this. This is a really positive move forward. There has been a state aid issue that has delayed the roll-out of the schemes, but we are going through that and the stakeholders understand that. The future funding will look like that. Instead of the Sound and Vision fund, we will have a media fund.

I have one final question, going back to RTÉ. Have you had any contact from Ms Forbes since this whole debacle broke?

Thank you, Minister.

Does anybody have a quick-fire question? We will go around the room. Deputy Dillon, you first.

We are aware of RTÉ's interim funding request of €34.5 million, which was issued last May. The Minister has mentioned only €16 million here today, as recommended by the Future of Media Commission. Considering the anticipated €21 million drop-off in licence fee revenue by the end of the year, how does the Minister justify the apparent shortfall in the context of her budgetary discussions, which will occur in the next six days? She has mentioned €16 million. She has said she is in budgetary discussions. We have six days to go but we will not see the strategic plan that will be published by the DG, Mr. Kevin Bakhurst. I am just trying to get an understanding as to how the taxpayer will bridge the financial crisis hitting RTÉ, including for its staff, who are fearful of what will happen into the future. May I get an understanding as to how this will play out over the coming months, taking into account that the external independent reviews will not be published until next January, in 2024? What happens next?

To follow the process up to now, which informs what happens next, that €34.5 million ask, plus that €21 million shortfall, is what NewERA was asked to interrogate. It came to me last week with a recommendation, which I have shared with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, the party leaders and the Minister, Deputy Michael McGrath.

What happens next on the budget is that I am saying I will only look to provide what is recommended under the Future of Media Commission out of what NewERA has recommended-----

In the report it is €16 million. That is what was agreed by the Government last year. There is an agreement there already on that.

When will the additional State intervention happen?

First, we have to see the strategic vision - that is, myself and the Minister, Deputy Donohoe.

That is the end of October.

That will be October. That will be high level. By the end of the year, there will be definite time lines and implementation action. That is what I need to see before they get the rest of the amount.

So in the time line, the Minister is talking into 2024 before any additional funding will be given by her Department.

There will be an announcement by the end of the year on NewERA’s recommendation.

To conclude-----

Will the Minister be waiting for her own external report and review?

There are two issues. On the external committees, I am waiting for those for the future funding model of RTÉ. It is that critical decision. They will inform the longer term part.

Finally, on the statement issued by RTÉ naming Ryan Tubridy and the six-year understatement of his earnings in the region of €345,000 and the board’s actions by issuing that statement without having any of the facts and the details, does the Minister think the board’s action was appropriate? Without comprehensive detail, the board was unsure about what was factual or correct. I think that was a huge error by the board. I am asking the Minister’s opinion on this.

The Grant Thornton report stated there had been an understatement. What it revealed that day was factually correct, that is, that there had been an understatement.

I have one other question. When will the 2022 financial annual reports be published or go to the Cabinet, or have they been published?

That is done already. That was a few weeks ago.

Does Senator Ahearn have any questions?

I will let the others go first. I have a question but the Chair would have to be very lenient with me. It is not in relation to RTÉ. It is more of a local issue. If there is time at the end-----

Quick, fire ahead.

It is a simple question. I was at a comedy club in Cahir in Tipperary at the weekend. It has been set up in the last couple of months by a guy called Tom O’Mahony. It is connected to RTÉ because he does the pre-show for “The Late Late Show” every week. He is a genius. A brilliant comedian. He is bringing the best comedians in the country to Cahir in Tipperary which means we do not need to go to Cork or Dublin to see top talent. However, they get no funding from the State whatsoever for anything, that is, comedians in general. This is providing a service to communities living in rural Ireland. Is there something we can do, as a Government, to support those comedians? He is setting it up and doing it all on his own. He gets 100 to 120 people coming in. It is a brilliant idea. In terms of artists, comedians are treated differently. If this was a show that was done by the Clonmel Arts Festival, it would be funding from the local authorities or the State. He is bringing the best talent to a tiny little town.

Maybe the Senator can chat to the Minister afterwards.

The Senator can send me on information. It could be a problem under the Arts Act under the definition of the different categories. I can look at that and see if there are ways. I would ask the Senator to send me on the information. There may be a way of accessing funding through the local authorities.

The Minister said she was not happy about the reinstatement of the executives’ pay previously and that it was done without her knowledge. Would she look to have that decision reversed by the board? Maybe this is something she has already asked for this?

No, I was not happy. That was done at a time when I was seeking funding. The questions on pay levels and reductions are not a matter for me, as Minister. I do not think we should be getting to a stage where I am micro managing at that level or that the Government is. Having said that, I would expect the board and the executive to take the steps necessary to make RTÉ more efficient and to consider everything in how it does that.

On the Department itself, I asked earlier about interactions with the chair and so on. Was anyone in the Department scrutinising RTÉ annual reports? I presume there is a wing of the Department that has special responsibility for RTÉ under an assistant secretary or a principal officer? I would imagine there is. What is the set up there?

The Department does that for the annual report and so does NewERA.

And they have been doing that over the past number of years, obviously.

Did anyone see anything wrong with governance or lack thereof in relation to, for example, the audit and risk committee or the remuneration committee not meeting?

One would not spot individual actions like that in the annual report. It is not something that would arise. Having said that, I am quite happy, in regard to the recommendations that come forward from the expert advisory group, that if it sees something where the Department can strengthen the process, then absolutely, but in the specific circumstance to which the Deputy referred, one would not see that. NewERA does interrogate it.

Would anyone in the Department have flagged concerns the Minister should raise with the chair when she was meeting her prior to March 2023? In the meetings they would have been having in the two years and nine months prior to that, would anyone have flagged concerns the Minster should have flagged with the chair?

Not in relation to financial transactions. There is ongoing engagement and discussions but not specifically on financial transactions.

No. The board did not know what was going on and the wing of the Department specifically dedicated to RTÉ did not know what was going on and was not concerned about anything.

It is not an audit function in the Department. With regard to RTÉ finances, the oversight role concentrates on high-level information so it is understanding RTÉ’s overall position as regards deficits, debt, cash flow, cost savings and matters of that kind, as well as the code of practice.

Would functions of the board have ever been discussed in those meetings, including what the board was doing, whether it was doing its job? Would there have been checks on whether the board was doing everything it was supposed to be doing if the subcommittees of the board were meeting?

There is a code of practice there and a verification process where many questions are answered on an annual basis. I can get the Deputy a copy of the verification process if he would like to see that.

So those questions would have been asked. What would the replies have been? If those questions were asked, and we clearly know now that these things were not happening, did the board mislead the Minister when she had met them?

I am saying the role of oversight is not an audit function in the Department. Any oversight arrangement would have regard to the normal approach of dealing with commercial State bodies. It is the day-to-day running. Oversight is a matter for the board. The code of practice for governance and the State bodies is set out in the obligations of State bodies. Having said that, I am saying to the Deputy that if the expert advisory groups come back and say that maybe something else needs to be added to the verification process, and if there are key things to be learned by the Department on strengthening processes, then we are absolutely willing to take that on board.

To conclude-----

This is the very last question. Is the lack of financial auditing expertise, that is, people who speak the language of auditors, on the board of concern to the Minister? Is it something she intends to change? We have seen how when there is not that expertise how it permeates to subcommittees. There is not the appropriate level of scrutiny in those subcommittees. Is this something the Minister will try to change sooner rather than later?

The chair has those skills -----

She has that accounting background. It is something-----

But overall it is not a massive amount.

In the appointments recommended by this committee last year, that background was something that was sought. In the new appointments in future, and in engagement with the Public Appointments Service, it is a skill set we are looking for.

Would the Minister be concerned about appointments last year? Take the Larry Bass situation. Would she be concerned about what happened there with the board? Has she asked questions about what happened there and about others on the board who would have had, in the public’s view, serious conflicts of interest, and about that going unchecked?

As the Deputy knows, Mr. Bass was an appointment following my nomination, having received the recommendation from this committee. The former chair raised concerns about potential conflicts of interest. I think all boards, including RTÉ, have rules in place to handle the conflicts of interest. That is how the committees thought at the time when the appointment was recommended to me. Ultimately, it was Mr. Bass's decision to resign but there are processes in place for dealing with conflicts of interest.

I raised a case in the Dáil a couple of months ago. An individual came to me who had a difficult time at RTÉ in the 1990s. He felt he had been intimidated and had endured a lot of bullying in the workplace. I am sure that is not the only case. At the time, I expressed the need for a point of contact. This person previously would have contacted former directors general and chairs. There is a need for a point of contact in the organisation for people who had similar experiences and want to make their cases known to the Minister and the current leadership of RTÉ, and to be heard. Could that be prioritised? I am sure this person is not the only person who has wanted to come forward with his story.

It is timely for the Deputy to raise that. I will raise that with the director general this week.

I have one question for the director general. I raise the issue of the less well remunerated, which is the RTÉ pensioners. A pay increase due to RTÉ pensioners, of 2.5%, was granted last December. Ten months on, there is nothing. Their contracts state that pension increases are linked to the wage and pay agreements. We have seen top executives have their pay restored, with some getting in excess of €10,000. Most RTÉ pensioners would be living on less than €20,000. They have paid a considerable amount of money into their defined pension scheme. There has been one increase, of just 2%, since 2008. I ask if, at that meeting, the Minister could follow up on this for pensioners and revert to me on it.

I will do that. I think NewERA is probably examining the most recent one. I will raise it with the director general as well.

On that, concern has been expressed by some of these pensioners because they are involved with a superannuation scheme on one hand and there has been decision-making around that and reports on RTÉ, its financing and its funding. I want to stress the case for these pensioners. I ask for a response, given that this was granted. We have seen this with the delay with the An Post pensioners. I would ask that this 2.5%, which was delivered last December, be delivered on.

I will discuss it with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe.

Could the Minister come back to me in writing on that? Is that okay?

I thank the Minister and officials from her Department for being with us today. Sorry, Deputy Andrews would like to come in.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the latitude. I highlight the lack of coverage of League of Ireland football. In RTÉ's plans, there are 1,000 hours of sport and 44 hours are of League of Ireland. It is incumbent on RTÉ as a public service broadcaster to promote the domestic game and international games. Leave some other media outlets to look at Turkish, English, French and Spanish teams. It is important that we promote League of Ireland football. It is in a really good place at the moment. Right now is a good time. Some 44 hours for League of Ireland out of 1,000 hours of sport is pretty abysmal. Could that be looked at? The Minister might mention that to RTÉ next time she meets it. I thank the Chair.

I thank Deputy Andrews. That concludes our meeting with the Minister and her officials. I thank the members of the press who have been here throughout the entire debate.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.15 p.m. and adjourned at 4.38 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 11 October 2023.
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