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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 20 Oct 2004

Aer Lingus: Presentation.

The purpose of this meeting is to discuss further strategic proposals for Aer Lingus. At our last meeting it was agreed we would invite the chief executive of the Chambers of Commerce of Ireland, but the invitation has been declined. The chief executive is not in a position to attend today. We will ascertain whether he can attend at a later date. As the clerk was only informed of this yesterday, there is not much we can do about it.

I welcome Mr. Peter Glynn, of the central representative council in Aer Lingus who is accompanied Mr. Liam Berney of the ICTU, Mr. Shay Cody of IMPACT and Ms Patricia King and Mr. Michael Halpenny of SIPTU. I draw to their attention the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, this same privilege does not extend to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Oireachtas or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

When the committee agreed to begin with a five-minute presentation from each group, we understood there would only be three. I understand the ICTU now wishes to make a presentation. Is that correct Mr. Berney?

Mr. Liam Burney

I indicated to the clerk that I have a submission which I did not circulate in advance as I prepared it only this morning. I was not in a position to prepare it before that. It is a short submission and I requested that it be circulated before I make the presentation.

Do you wish to circulate the submission and to make a presentation?

Mr. Burney

Yes, please.

The normal rule is that a submission should be with the clerk for at least 24 hours before the meeting. I would have hoped the clerk would have informed you of that. In view of the fact that you are here, it would be wrong not to allow you your five minutes. Is that agreed? Agreed. Mr. Glynn will commence on behalf of the central representative council.

Mr. Peter Glynn

I extend to the committee the gratitude of the central representative council for the invitation to discuss the council's views on the strategic proposals for Aer Lingus. I will provide a brief outline of my role and responsibilities in the council in Aer Lingus.

The worker participation agreement in Aer Lingus identified a number of objectives in the development of participation at enterprise level. Currently, employees have representation at corporate level through the election to the board of Aer Lingus of four worker directors. Our objective now is to enhance participation structures at departmental level. The council endeavours to enhance participatory structures to promote joint discussions among all staff representatives on company matters prior to any decision making process. This is vital if we are to have a coherent process involving staff, employees and all other stakeholders.

The participants are committed to the good of the airline and its staff and the creation of a more prosperous organisation which can provide and protect sound employment which allows for job satisfaction. As secretary of the central representative council, I work with all relevant trade unions and ensure the terms of the worker participation agreement and the council's constitution are complied with. I lead delegations at meetings with Ministers and departmental officials and keep abreast of all EU developments relevant to air transport.

To turn to some issues we have addressed in the past, we worked in 1993 with trade unions and the Government to secure a 5% shareholding for all employees in the airline. In 1998 we worked with company to identify the best benefits of entering the One World alliance. In 2001, we secured with the trade unions a 9.9% share of the company bringing the total shareholding for all employees to 14.9%. The constitution of the central representative council precludes it from addressing industrial relations issues. It was established to deal with business issues only.

The delegation today includes Mr. Shay Cody, assistant general secretary of IMPACT, Mr. Michael Halpenny, national industrial secretary of SIPTU and Ms Patricia King, regional secretary of SIPTU and Mr. Liam Berney, industrial officer of the ICTU. I ask Mr. Berney to outline the view of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions on the future strategic proposals of Aer Lingus. He will be followed by Mr. Halpenny and Mr. Cody.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Burney

I do not think I will need five minutes to make my presentation as I wish only to make some broad points. ICTU is very happy to be represented here. We welcome the opportunity to present our views on the future ownership structure of Aer Lingus. The approach of congress in dealing with strategic issues facing the State companies is grounded in the commitments set out in the mid-term review of Sustaining Progress, a copy of which I have circulated with the submission. I am sure members have studied it in detail.

Section 7(1) of the review refers to the Government's commitment to active engagement with the social partners on the question of public enterprise. That active engagement is grounded in a number of principles outlined in the review. Members will find that the principles set out are important and illustrate a proactive approach on the part of congress.

The Government has signalled its intention to undertake an analysis of the current ownership structure. There is much speculation that analysis was prompted by a request from senior management of Aer Lingus to prepare a proposal for a management buy-out of the company. It is our understanding that that request has since been withdrawn. We further understand the Government has requested Goldman Sachs, a renowned consultancy firm, to advise it on the choices available in this regard and that that report is now with Department of Transport and has managed to stay out of the public arena to date.

Congress has had no formal dialogue with the Government on this important issue. Therefore, the views expressed here today are preliminary. That is not to suggest congress have not had an outing. Congress issued a significant public statement at the time the proposal for a management buy-out was signalled. A copy of that statement is available on the congress website. I would like now to make a number of preliminary points.

Congress has not heard to date any compelling argument for full or part privatisation of the State airline, Aer Lingus. Those who favour private sector involvement in the company have argued it is the best way of securing resources to update the fleet and to invest in new aircraft. It is important to say that we all share the view that there is a requirement, for many reasons, to update the fleet and to purchase new aircraft. However, congress sees no reason the State should not directly invest in what is a hugely successful company.

There are those who argue that such an investment is illegal and against the stated rules of the European Union. Anyone who took the time to look at the stated rules would know that is not the case. There is no legal impediment preventing the State investing in the airline. Indeed, any State investment to purchase new aircraft should be regarded as investment in vital infrastructure. Congress believes it is a good idea that the Government do so anyway.

Congress has signalled to Government its desire for direct dialogue on the future ownership structure of Aer Lingus. This request is grounded in the five principles set out in Sustaining Progress to which I have already referred. We would like that dialogue to take place in advance of any final decision being taken. We are hopeful that will be the case. The starting point of any dialogue must be a common understanding of what is required from the State airline and what role it plays in the economic and social life of the country. It is also important to define what the Government wants the airline to do. We look forward to this dialogue.

Congress is committed to working towards finding the best solution in the interests of the public, the State and those who work for the airline. I am happy to speak in detail on any of the issues raised, if required.

Mr. Shay Cody

I represent IMPACT which represents pilots, cabin crew and middle management grades in Aer Lingus. The union has a good overview of the industry through its membership in other aviation companies, airlines, Aer Rianta, the Irish Aviation Authority, helicopter companies and so on and through its extensive international contacts in the industry.

I would like first to briefly address two elements of the current industrial relationship situation and ownership issues. I would like to address the industrial relations issue in the context of the Taoiseach's attendance at the Irish Congress of Trade Unions conference last year at which he gave a firm commitment on the part of the Government that there should not and would not be a race to the bottom in working and employment standards in the aviation sector. This has had a number of outings in the context of the developments in Aer Rianta. However, the Taoiseach gave a broad and unequivocal commitment that there would be no race to the bottom. That needs to be take into account in the context of the rest of my presentation.

We also, as my colleague mentioned, have firm commitments under Sustaining Progress not just in the context of what will happen in terms of public enterprises but also the general provision of services to the public whether delivered by private sector organisations or existing public sector ones. Regard must be had to existing working conditions and standards. I would also like to briefly address process issues.

There is considerable concern on the part of trade unions that even though we are in a process of industrial relations changes the company reserves the right to unilaterally impose change at any stage. There is a guerrilla war process underway whereby unions feel required to ballot their members to prevent the company unilaterally imposing change before procedures such as direct talks, the Labour Relations Commission and Labour Court have been exhausted.

As regards the current industrial climate, Aer Lingus is the only State company that has ever rejected a Labour Court recommendation as it recently did in the case of cabin crew in Shannon. The company sought to transfer 30 cabin crew from Shannon to Dublin on a compulsory basis. The transfer affected, in the main, young women with families based and working in Shannon. At relatively short notice the company stated they must move to Dublin. The union disputed the move and a strike was threatened. The matter was taken up by the National Implementation Body and the Labour Court. The Labour Court ruled there was nothing in the contract of employment that allowed Aer Lingus to do what it was purporting to do. Aer Lingus rejected that recommendation. It argued that the Labour Court did not understand the issues. That has never happened before. I want to emphasise the importance of that rejection as a significant element of destabilisation in the atmosphere and environment at Aer Lingus.

Aer Lingus is seeking to flash, as described in my presentation, part time options. Approximately 30% of cabin crew — again in the main consisting, in terms of work and age profile, of young women many of who have families — are working part time as is typical of that profile of worker. The company's declared policy position is to reduce that to 5% on a grace and favour basis. As a result, there is a stampede of people seeking to leave the company not because they want to leave or take a severance package but because they do not believe it will be possible for them to continue with their individual lives in an environment where the company is threatening what is the entitlement of workers anywhere else in the economy.

The company is seeking changes that were not secured in the survival plan. In other words, it is now seeking what the Labour Relations Commission refused at a time of high crisis and when things such as pay and conditions were being significantly eroded. A random sample of what the company is now seeking to do away with includes time off after onerous transatlantic duties and flexible arrangements such as working a full week over four days and having the fifth day off, to which people are entitled from time to time. Currently, approximately 20 to 30 pilots are not being given any work. If that continues the pilots concerned will lose their licence to fly as pilots. At the same time the company is paying premium payments to other pilots to work more than the agreed norm. These payments are in excess of the wage bill of the 20 to 30 people parked. That is a matter of extreme concern, which has the potential to develop into an industrial relations flashpoint in the company. One may ask why. It is our view that the company wishes to be able to "prove" it can eradicate pilot positions.

We contend the staff is being left behind by the current management style and drive. There is a major issue of morale, which anyone who speaks officially, socially or privately with an Aer Lingus worker will identify. The management style is, to put it at its mildest, driven. It is very difficult to engage with that style of management. To give a simple example, I understand indications were given to the Joint Committee on Transport previously that Aer Lingus was committed to remaining in the one-world alliance. While the company joined the alliance after an extensive period of consultation with trade unions and the Department of Transport, the word on the ground now is that Aer Lingus will have left by 1 January 2005. This will happen without consultation with us or, I suggest, with the members of the committee. I suspect there will not have been consultation with the Minister or officials of his Department.

IMPACT is concerned about the nature of employment in the company going forward. After all of the exits taken, IMPACT believes it is the management's agenda to bring casual, temporary and part-time staff into the organisation perhaps in less favourable conditions. The proof is that Aer Lingus enticed and hired a certain number of temporary cabin crew who rejoined the company about a year ago, all of whom have been summarily dismissed in the recent past. Some of those people were enticed to leave permanent jobs elsewhere on a nod-and-wink basis to the effect that they would have long-term careers in Aer Lingus. After nine months, their contracts were terminated. Currently, 10% of pilots are in a disciplinary process.

The shareholder has a role in addressing the climate and culture in the organisation. I draw to the attention of the committee the pension scheme, to which others referred. My colleague, Mr. Berney, has addressed ownership and equity issues. We require a serious engagement on whether Aer Lingus needs additional equity. Such engagement must take place in the proper fashion and cannot take place through public relations stunts and leaks. Last Monday, The Irish Times featured the statement that the airline was asking the State for up to €300 million in equity, which was the first my colleagues and I heard about it. I suspect it was also the first the Department heard about it. That is not the way to proceed in a climate of partnership and co-operation.

Mr. Michael Halpenny

I will be as brief as I can. The first thing to point out is that Aer Lingus is one of the most profitable airlines in Europe if not in the world. It is publicly owned and by any standard a national asset. This is the backdrop from which we approach the matter. The accumulated profits of Aer Lingus are in excess of €200 million for the past three years and further profits of €95 million are projected for this year. The market value of the company varies between €500 million and €750 million with the slots at Heathrow constituting an unknown quantity as they are traded on the grey market. While the value of the slots is very difficult to quantify, all the experts agree it is substantial.

SIPTU represents approximately 2,500 workers and the bulk of the effects of cuts will be felt among our members. I will not dwell on the background of what happened with the survival plan, which was discussed at the last meeting of this committee. I simply restate that the survival plan was fully supported by the workforce that delivered 2,000 jobs cuts in total, pay freezes and consequential work changes. Our members delivered and the company's fortunes have been sharply contrasted with those of airlines such as Sabena and Swissair, which went to the wall, and Alitalia, which did not wake up and smell the coffee until very recently. Aer Lingus has a successful workforce, which has proved its point and embraced change.

On 26 July this year, there was a further demand from the board of the company for substantial job cuts of 1,325. This demand is based on a business plan that is predicated on a new business model which despite the protestation of the management seeks to emulate Ryanair. Our members' jobs are required to be sacrificed to pay for this low-cost model. While the model has proved itself in the short-haul market, it is highly speculative as far as long-haul flights are concerned. No evidence, plans, schedules or financial projections have been advanced for the other pillar of this proposal, which is the pioneering role on longer-haul routes. The cuts are to be achieved through outsourcing existing jobs, which means, in essence, that the jobs of our members will be yellowpacked. They will be taken from our members and handed to outside contractors. Third-party handling denies revenue streams to the company. There will be a discontinuance of major functions, such as cargo, downsizing and undermining and diminishing of conditions for workers such as cabin crew. There is a plethora of mechanisms by which the cuts are to be achieved.

Our members have protected themselves against unilateral action. Our preference is to negotiate and while we will do that, if the company seeks to impose change unilaterally on our members, we are in a position to react. It is not something we wish to do, but it is important the company knows we can. We are opposed to this plan. Aer Lingus is a highly profitable company and the jobs cuts are extreme by any yardstick. Our members have proven that they are well capable of delivering continuous change and have done so even since the survival package was introduced. Another important point is that most of the staff of Aer Lingus chose to remain and put their shoulders to the wheel during very difficult times. It is ironic that their thanks is a demand for further job cuts.

Despite all of this, there are no plans within Aer Lingus to build up a capital reserve to provide for future funding and fleet replacement. We seem to be proceeding on a wing and a prayer. To categorise what we have been presented with as a business plan is a misnomer. Not only is outsourcing a proposal to yellowpack our members' jobs, it is in clear conflict with commitments entered into by Government with the trade union movement on measures to prevent a race to the bottom. It is also being carried out in a manner that is in conflict with transfer-of-undertakings legislation and the acquired-rights directive in so far as quotations are being sought that do not provide for the legitimate right of all our members in areas such as catering to transfer to a new contract with the same rates and conditions of employment.

The effect of the plan in other areas will be to pile on more work. The discontinuance of cargo services has offended the community and business. While the business plan places reliance on the development of a long-haul venture, it does so in a highly speculative manner with no evidence whatsoever. We are in a facilitation process and intend to reach a negotiated solution. Clearly, we require the company to do the same. I share the concerns of my colleague, Mr. Cody, that Aer Lingus may seek to enforce change.

On the issues of ownership and the Goldman Sach's report, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions has elaborated the general position of the unions to the Cabinet sub-committee. Public ownership and staff co-operation have been the proven basis on which Aer Lingus has recovered to find itself highly profitable. The twin pillars of public ownership and staff co-operation have provided stability and social partnership, the mechanisms by which Aer Lingus has developed in a highly competitive environment. We need look no further than New Zealand for an example of how not to proceed. Having been privatised, Air New Zealand had to be taken back into public ownership at enormous cost to the taxpayer.

In summary, our position is that Aer Lingus is not in difficulty. It is a highly profitable company that bears no comparison with any other traditional flag carrier. It has done the business. The contribution of the workforce has been enormous and decisive. The business plan put forward by Aer Lingus is not a plan for business but a plan to cut jobs out of a desire to emulate certain other low-cost carriers and their practices. The proposal to outsource jobs in particular is in conflict with commitments entered into by Government and, we are advised, in conflict with the law governing the transfer of undertakings and the rights of employees. The proposal to be a pioneer in lower cost, long-haul travel lacks substance and certainly fails to constitute a basis on which to demand job cuts.

While our members have indicated by their actions a commitment to negotiate change on an agreed basis, it cannot be at the price of handing over their jobs in a race to the bottom. The Government as a social partner has a key obligation to engage with the trade unions on the future of Aer Lingus and on measures to maintain standards of employment and to avoid a race to the bottom.

I reiterate that there is no impediment to the State investing in Aer Lingus in accordance with EU rules. That point has been covered by my two colleagues. What is needed is a measured strategic approach involving the social partners and primarily the workforce in agreeing the future for our national airline, based on the preservation of the maximum number of sustainable secure permanent jobs, in accordance with agreed terms and conditions. Most importantly, such an approach needs to recognise the legitimate concerns of consumers, the community and other legitimate stakeholders in the delivery of service and the discharge of the functions of the national airline recognising its vital role in the infrastructure of the State and its contribution to economic development.

I wish to put a few questions before calling Deputy Mitchell. With regard to the fleet replacement, which was highlighted to us by management, how does Mr. Halpenny envisage it can be done without outside equity, other than by State aid? Is Aer Lingus in a financial position to raise the necessary money for replacement without getting extra investment from outside?

Sorry, Chairman, not State aid, but funding from the State. I just want to clarify that point.

It is funding from the State. On the question of the profits being made by Aer Lingus, I noted that of the actual profit, 75% is as a result of the savings it made on staffing levels. That means it is a paper and not a real profit so far as a business would be concerned. While we are all delighted and want to pay tribute to all the unions for the efforts they made to save the State airline — that is not in question at this stage — looking to the future we have to take cognisance of the fact that this is where its actual profit is coming from.

Why is it that 1,600 people applied for the redundancy package? Is it that attractive or is it that people consider there are better opportunities elsewhere?

Mr. Halpenny

I will take the last question first and I am sure my colleagues will contribute with their own answers. The answer is that the company produced a gun, called 15 October, and put it to people's heads, despite the fact that were in a process with the union, having been engaged in a five or six weeks facilitation process with Kevin Foley of the Labour Relations Commission. Arising from that, some issues are going back to local level for further intense discussion, other issues are going on to the Labour Relations Commission and at least one issue is probably going straight to the Labour Court. There is a great deal of ground to be covered. The whole purpose of the exercise and the engagement we have had with management is to end up with two questions. If it is agreed that a certain number of jobs can be released what is the worth of each employee who wishes to go? A substantial part of that answer has been given by the Labour Court in its recent recommendation.

At the outset the company said its offer was so generous it could not be improved. That was the basis on which it refused to engage with us. However, it had to engage with us and the Labour Court said the union was right, that the offer could bear some improvement. At least those who are considering leaving know the answer to the question of their value but they do not know the answer to the other question, which is should they go? If not they need to know their position regarding the restructuring. That question has not been answered.

Put simply, what has happened is that the company has put a gun to people's heads and said people will have to put a bet down on their future. I suspect that quite a number of the 1,600 members of staff are buying car insurance but they do not intend to crash the car. At its worst, there are people who have said to us that they have been pressurised. There is no point in putting a gloss on it. People have been told, it is basically jump or be pushed. There are a whole number of reasons. I have great sympathy with those who, on the one hand are being forced to put their name down, because like the rest of us they have families and futures, and at the same time are being asked to justify why they did so, as if they did not care. If one was to reel the situation back prior to 26 July, and ask if 1,600 people would want to leave Aer Lingus everyone here would know the answer would be very few.

I am little confused on the question of the profits being generated and the contribution of staff. I understood the company was saying the contribution of staff cuts was considerably lower than 75%. I thought it was saying it was in the region of 20%. As I recollect the evidence of either Mr. Dunne or Mr. Walsh to the last session of the committee, the major contribution was through economies in distribution at approximately 65% while they categorised the contribution of staff cuts as being approximately 20%.

I asked that question because if one takes the saving on the average wage per employee it works out at the figures mentioned. Mr. Dunne and Mr. Walsh did say what Mr. Halpenny has said but I still maintain the saving is being made by means of staff reduction more so than by the avenues expressed to us on the last day. We will agree to differ with them.

Mr. Halpenny

I am not seeking to differ. I am in as much a quandary as the Chairman.

I am in a similar position. I could not work out the basis of the mathematics set out at the last meeting.

Mr. Halpenny

In terms of the funding for fleet replacement, my recollection is that Mr. Dunne stated at the last hearing that they had devised an internal solution to fleet replacement on short haul and his concentration was on the long haul. I do not know, but from reading the transcript he seemed to give the impression that at €100 million a go, the cost in terms of the long haul fleet would be approximately €1 billion. I was not sure if that was simply the replacement plus the additional requirements. Equally, I understand from The Irish Times on Monday that the figure is somewhere between €200 million and €300 million. If that is the cost of fleet replacement for existing long haul routes for a successful company I would not have thought it was entirely onerous. Furthermore, given the proven profitability and viability of Aer Lingus as being the only flag carrier which has reinvented itself, not only in Europe but the world, I would have thought it a reasonably safe bet so far as the State is concerned. It is not a bad bet.

I take the point made by my colleague, Mr. Liam Burney, that it would be entirely proper in terms of investment in vital infrastructure. We saw the furore from businesses over the withdrawal of interline cargo and the effect it had on them to have to resource carriers for low volume but high value goods. All of us know the premium placed on connectivity by inward investment. If one adds all those and looks at the points made previously at this hearing about balanced regional development in the areas of Cork and Shannon, there are at least three cogent arguments which put that whole question in context.

Ms Patricia King

On the question of why 1,620 people have decided to go, it should be noted that through the propositions from the company to have a policy of out-sourcing, the stripping out of these State jobs, and selling them off to third party companies, some of which are British based whose terms and conditions would be far inferior, there is a huge level of uncertainty. However, there is also a level of uncertainty for those who stay. If one stayed in the company and the section in which one worked has gone, where would one work in the future?

Considering the level of change being proposed, for example in regard to the cabin crew, and the stripping out of their terms and conditions, which the company is seeking as part of this restructuring, it would be hard to engender confidence and encourage staff to remain with the organisation. There are huge difficulties not only for those who go but also for those who stay. There are also major difficulties in terms of how the company has decided to do its business.

Many more questions have been raised than there are answers. It is hard now to know what questions can be asked to which the delegation will have concrete answers. I appreciate the presentations. I have sympathy for any person working at Aer Lingus because it is never pleasant to be in a situation where one's future is uncertain. As politicians, we know that is true. From the point of view of Aer Lingus and its staff, it appears that the longer the uncertainty continues, the fewer options are open to the company.

This presentation was entitled Comments on the Strategic Proposals on the Future of Aer Lingus, but I did not hear any strategic proposals. I heard the delegation say it is not against change, but I did not hear any proposals for change. I heard a defence of what happened in the past and do not deny the enormous contribution that staff and management have made to turning around the company. However, is time running out for Aer Lingus and are its options not becoming more limited each day a decision is not made on its future?

It has been said that private sector involvement is the way forward and the means to securing money for aircraft, but that is becoming less likely. The delegates have said Aer Lingus is a successful company, which it is, but it is one of the few successful airline companies in the world. From where will the investors come? Goldman Sachs suggested a flotation, but where are the small investors who will invest in an airline? I do not know of any. Many people were willing to put money into Eircom, but I cannot see them being willing to put their money into an airline. The evidence from what is happening around the world suggests that investing in an airline is a bad deal.

Aer Lingus is successful at the moment. While it is true that the State could invest in it now, the future of the airline must be secured. The airline business is notoriously cyclical and in a more unsafe world the first thing to go is airline travel. The price of oil is going through the roof. These factors all have an effect on profitability. The future of the business is so uncertain that it is difficult to see from where investors will come.

Slots are valuable but they can only be sold once. Similarly, the airline can only reduce worker numbers to a floor level it will only reach once. The critical choice for Aer Lingus is to find a future, whether in private or public ownership. How can it tolerate a decision not being made? Is this not more important to the delegation than a decision that there should be no change? Does it really believe that the State can hold on to Aer Lingus, that it will continue to be profitable, that it will somehow manage to find money for new aircraft, and that we will not have a cycle that will bring it to its knees making it impossible to save or sell?

Mr. Cody

The trade union movement and the Government have signed up to Sustaining Progress. Part of that agreement was that we would not approach this discussion on the basis of ideological assumptions. This means both sides come to it with open hands.

I will speak personally of what has happened to date. I feel we are being manipulated. Let us consider a little history. Up to quite recently there were media stories that Aer Lingus needed additional equity to replace the European fleet. Then, lo and behold, it emerged that the company had enough internal cash resources to entirely replace the European fleet, without having to approach anybody. We now hear, and I read the story in the newspapers, that it requires additional capital of €300 million to assist in the replacement and expansion of the long haul fleet. I do not know whether this is true or not.

It appears that shared analysis, as is provided for in Sustaining Progress, sharing information, getting experts in, going through the accounts and the options, perhaps piggy-backing on the Goldman Sachs exercise, and coming to a shared conclusion on it all is more important than taking a decision today or tomorrow. I am not sure in whose interest it is to take a decision today or tomorrow. The one thing I do know is that no long haul aircraft needs to be replaced this year, next year or the following year. The long haul aircraft fleet is relatively new. If the airline needs an additional aircraft, for example in the morning, as has happened from time to time, it can lease one, literally at 24 hours notice. That is not to say that leasing is the only solution.

I would like to deliberate over such a major decision. I particularly emphasise this in the context of Eircom, with which we, as a trade union, were involved. The one thing I would point out is that if we could rewrite history, people probably would not have sold their telecommunications infrastructure. They would have done it a different way. However, at that stage it was fashionable. Everybody was selling their phone company; we did it too. We did not undertake any great analysis around the issue.

I put it to the committee that we should proceed slowly. The political system needs to satisfy itself on the issue, including the social partners, the Government, the company etc. I would rather that we took a little time to consider it, because we are not forced into doing it this side of Christmas. There is no requirement to rush it. The only reason we are in any sort of a tizzy about it is as a result of the initiative taken by three managers, who now seem to have either denied that they ever took such an initiative or have gone off the pitch. However, they still manage to place in certain newspapers the demand for €300 million. I do not understand who is the puppeteer in this issue.

Mr. Halpenny

It is important to restate that we are not in a crisis situation and time is not running out. I am not alone in saying this. Mr. Willie Walsh, chief executive, stated in a letter to me: "Aer Lingus is not a company in crisis. We remain on course to achieve our operating profit target of €95 million in 2004." This was in the context of a letter to me about the job cuts. We need to understand this. If I reflect on Mr. Walsh's evidence to this committee, he projected the view that the issue is forward planning. Time is not running out. Aer Lingus is not a company in crisis and nobody is saying it is.

The situation therefore requires a measured approach by the airline, the workforce, the shareholder and the community at large. That is the reason I emphasise the point that public ownership to date and social partnership have been the basis on which we have delivered profitability and a viable company which is not in crisis.

Private ownership, however, has delivered Chapter 11 in the United States. If the committee wants a comparison between Boston and Dublin, not Boston and Berlin, we have proof that we can do it. Regrettably, Boston has not. We must keep that broad picture in mind. That is why this is no time for any of us to hide our head in the sand. We must remind ourselves that our union members delivered survival. We delivered survival. Also, we are currently engaged, notwithstanding major reservations we have about this plan, in exploring change. We are doing so successfully in many areas, although we have by no means got to the end line. The committee is not talking to a trade union movement or workforce that are incapable of change, rather the opposite. They deliver change. We are not looking for plaudits for something which happened back in the Boer war. We are talking about life as it is now. That is the reason we are here before the committee.

There is a clear separation between the necessity to engage with management under social partnership on the future of our airline and the national airline on the one hand, and the ownership issue on the other. My colleague is correct that the reason we are discussing this is because three managers decided to take an initiative, but have now said, apparently, that they have not been red-carded but have walked off the pitch. I do not know which is true. How or never, we are here discussing the issue.

I understand the Goldman Sachs report was commissioned to lay out options on which the Cabinet sub-committee could deliberate. It did not reach any findings or make recommendations.

I welcome the delegation and thank it for the presentation. My first question concerns the manner in which the job losses were handled within the company. Everybody here has said on a number of occasions that Aer Lingus has come through a great deal over the past ten or 15 years including the Cahill plan and the survival plan of 2002. It has dealt with very difficult industrial relations issues, has implemented significant job cuts and the company has been turned around thanks to all concerned and is now very successful. It was my understanding that, given the existence of the CRC, there was well developed industrial relations machinery within the company to deal with these issues. The company has shown its metal over the years in that regard.

I was surprised when several of my constituents, employees of Aer Lingus, approached me regarding the manner in which the news of the jobs cuts was broken to them. I could not believe that could happen in this day and age given how Mr. Walsh, in particular, and his senior management portray the image of Aer Lingus as being a progressive and modern company with good staff relations. Several of my constituents told me of how on a Friday evening when working away they were told by the line manager that their unit was being closed or that 50% to 90% of the jobs in it were being done away with. I remember being struck by what an outdated way that was of dealing with industrial relations issues. Several people spoke of the feeling of being bullied and threatened by senior management. Many of the line managers were in similar positions in that they were being squeezed by people above them.

Why were critical decisions handled in that manner by such a well established company? I understood there were good mechanisms in place in the company for dealing with difficult issues. Was the CRC approached on the matter? Was there any negotiation with the CRC? Was information provided on what were people's options if they did not opt for the redundancy package? What kind of future was there for them at the company? From where did the information on what sections were to be closed or out-sourced come? I am interested to hear a reply in that regard. Most people would have felt Mr. Walsh was a progressive man. From what I am hearing from my constituents, the issue was not dealt with in a progressive and acceptable manner. I wonder why the CRC was bypassed as the representative council.

Mr. Burney spoke of the need for a common understanding of what is required of the airline, of the need for discussion and dialogue and asked what role Aer Lingus plays in the economic and social life of the country. I agree with his remarks in that regard. The difficulty is that the Government has stepped back and allowed the company to decide issues such as what role the company would play in the economy. In the absence of any type of serious aviation policy, Mr. Walsh has viewed his remit as being solely a profit-making one with no responsibility, for example, to the future of Shannon Airport, the question of repatriation of human remains and freight, issues about which the Government should be concerned. Given the absence of any policy Mr. Walsh has worked to a purely commercial agenda.

I do not believe it is possible to separate issues such as the proposed job losses or benchmarking of the company to Ryanair and the direction in which Mr. Walsh is taking the company, from the ownership issue. The Government may wish to step back and allow Mr. Walsh to get on with the job but, in allowing him to do so, it is deciding what role the national airline will play in the country. It will play a second Ryanair-type role. That is a serious error on the part of Government. In doing so, it is clear the Government is facilitating the streamlining of the company and the shedding of jobs to prepare it for privatisation.

I disagree with the point made that this issue has arisen as a result of senior management making a bid to develop an investment plan. In my view this issue arose when the Government decided to draft legislation — the Aer Lingus Bill — to facilitate the sale of the company. At that point it was clear that the Government had a plan to flog-off the company. The Government in forcing through that legislation and in allowing Mr. Walsh a free hand in terms of changing Aer Lingus into Ryanair mark II, is in breach of Sustaining Progress. It has not allowed discussion to take place on the strategic issues.

The issue should now be dealt with as a matter of the utmost seriousness and urgency within the social partnership framework. The concern is that jobs losses will be enforced, the company will change direction and will become a different one. While negotiations may continue and consultants such as Goldman Sachs will be brought in, eventually, the airline will be sold off. At this point, the Government is in breach of Sustaining Progress and that issue should be dealt with accordingly.

Perhaps a member of the delegation might clarify an issue which arose when Mr. Walsh was before the committee. It is a human issue of concern to the public and relates to the decision by management to cease repatriating human remains. That typifies the difference between what Government policy should be and what results from a purely commercial decision. There was huge outcry about that decision. It now appears Mr. Walsh has reversed it and that the service will continue. Perhaps the matter could be clarified. I have been told the service is only being provided through Heathrow Airport. Has it been scrapped in all other European airports? It is important that the matter is clarified.

Mr. Glynn

I will reply to the question regarding the CRC's involvement in the business plan. At a meeting of the CRC last May it was suggested by the chief executive and his team that a sub-group of CRC be involved in consultation on the business plan. An issue of confidentiality arose as regards the executive team becoming involved in the process. That matter was finalised on 3 July. We then met the chief executive. Approximately 25 hours from 6 July to 23 July was spent on presentations regarding the business issues facing the company and the competitive nature of the markets in which it operates. On Friday, 23 July I was presented with the head count reduction. On Sunday 25 July, I read about it in The Sunday Tribune. I sought approval for the head count reduction from the board on Monday, 26 July. There was disagreement about how the process should be communicated to the staff. We then met with a small delegation of the CRC on the following Wednesday and the trade unions insisted that the business plan and head count reduction be presented to them on that issue alone. The trade unions then had to inform their members of the head count reductions. The matter was followed up on the following Monday with the CRC insisting the executive management team present to the staff the business plan for each department. That is the process we followed.

Ms King

On the precise question asked, it is important to follow on from the point which Mr. Glynn makes. The chief executive set up his business development plan with the CRC and his business development group. He insisted that they sign a confidentiality clause. The meeting attended by the unions and chief executive was facilitated by the CRC. That was the only way we could get to meet him. We asked to see the plan and were refused. We explained we needed to see it before we could talk about it but he still refused to let us see it. He then agreed to show it to the business development group from the CRC. The problem with that was that those concerned had to, on his insistence, sign a confidentiality clause. The situation was similar to attending a séance. We suggested we should all join hands and talk about the business plan but that we would not tell anyone about it, which was nonsense. Who is looking for the confrontation? If the company has a business plan it share it with us and let us get involved in the normal process to discuss it. The meeting on that Wednesday was hugely important in terms of developing the atmosphere for the future. The Richter scale measures earthquakes. I do not know what scale measures arrogance but it was fairly high that day in terms of “I will do it my way” and “you will either do it my way or”.

Ms King is referring to a person who is not here.

Ms King

May I rephrase it and say the management team gave me the impression that they had a view which was——

That is still obvious, because we all know who comprises the management team.

Ms King

After that the trade unions had to develop a strategy by consulting with its membership on how it was going to deal with the implementation of this business plan. From that flowed, as Mr. Halpennyhas said, the facilitation process, following strong pressure from us. That was the basis of the atmosphere which those workers faced following the announcement in the press of the job losses.

Mr. Halpenny

I shall deal with the issue of human remains. It is my understanding that the human remains came through Heathrow.

Mr. Glynn

There is an outline agreement through Menzies in Heathrow only. Therefore, the human remains issue from, say, any other European city would have to go through Heathrow first.

In the case of, say, Madrid, and on average one Irish person per week dies in Spain, what happens to those remains?

Mr. Glynn

I would possibly use Iberia to fly the human remains to Heathrow and then use the Aer Lingus network to take them from Heathrow.

Previously, would they have been brought back directly from Madrid?

Mr. Glynn

Yes.

Families would have to deal with the extra expense, delay and inconvenience of a two-legged flight instead of one.

Mr. Glynn

Yes, because of having only an international flight in Heathrow.

Thank you for that.

Mr. Halpenny

Deputy Shortall asked how did people know what were their choices. We have dealt succinctly with what happened at the first meeting which, I have to say after 25 years as a full-time official dealing with some fairly tough employers, was a revelation in terms of process, from all the things I had previously heard about Aer Lingus. The potent question for our members is: "How did you know and how did you find out?" I will tell the committee how we found out. We had sought to engage with the management on the issue of severance, simply because, from a pragmatic point of view, we knew it would be a piece in the jigsaw and we were determined that, ultimately, we were not going to have people walking down the road with one arm as long as the other on sub-standard packages. That was not in any way an enticement but simply a recognition of reality.

The company refused to engage with us. The only engagement it allowed with us was to give us one and a half hour's notice. Our officials and the officials of the other unions got one and a half hour's notice to be in the head office building at 3 p.m. to hear an announcement. They rejigged their diaries and went in the belief they would be meeting the senior executive of the management team only to find that it was not present as it in the Shelbourne Hotel advising everybody in the country as to what the package would be for the workforce in Aer Lingus. That is how the workforce found out what their options would be.

So much for partnership.

There is a long background to this issue in Aer Lingus. I believe the long-term objective of Aer Lingus management is to privatise the company and to produce a low-cost, no frills aircraft and airline, run by part-time and casual staff so far as possible. As I said at the last meeting, there is a serious conflict of interest among the management with the public service mandate it should have as public service employees. While someone said the company walked off the pitch in regard to the management buyout proposal, it is important to realise it may have lost the skirmish but this management is still in place and has its long-term objectives in view and is working towards that end. I have to say to the trade union movement I am disappointed it would take the view that ownership is up for discussion. The trade union movement would be better off telling the Government the airline should remain in public ownership and operate on that basis.

On the question of investment, we have heard time and again that the Government cannot invest in the company. It has been stated in each of the submissions and it needs to be restated that there is no barrier to Government investment in the airline. I would like the trade union officials to confirm that once again because the contrary has been deliberately put out in the public mind. We need to get across to the public that there is no barrier to State investment in the airline, it is a profitable company and it would be good business sense to invest in the company.

The 1,325 redundancies indicated are in addition to 2,000 jobs and a further 1,000 jobs losses in the past. Is it true that "voluntary" is a misnomer for this scheme? Is it true that the management style, the atmosphere in the company and the restructuring down the road are making these enforced redundancies? Will the trade union people please comment on that? Given that the business plan is supposed to a business plan for growth, I would have thought it would create jobs.

Mr. Burney

On the ownership issue, congress is on the record here in the statements we issued after the management buyout proposal was mooted. As far as we are concerned the State airline should remain in public ownership. Sustaining Progress commits us to having an active engagement. We are and will have it. Our position is on the public record and it is clear.

So far as we are concerned, and we have had significant advice in respect of this, there is no legal impediment whatsoever stopping the Government investing in Aer Lingus. That is clear. There would be a difficulty if the airline was in significant financial trouble. Investing then could cause difficulties from a State aid perspective. There is no legal impediment whatsoever preventing the Government putting money into Aer Lingus on a commercial basis. There is no difficulty. I hope I have clarified the two issues for the committee.

In regard to Deputy Shortall's comments in respect of Aer Lingus, what it does and so on, it is vital that the starting point for any discussion this is what the Government wants it to do. What role it plays in the economic and social life of the country is a vital debate. Only then can we engage on what is the best method of delivering the requirements. To emphasise the points my colleagues have made about the apparent haste that is needed in respect of that discussion, there is no need for haste. The airline is in a good position, it is making profits. On a personal level, when I am travelling from abroad and get on an Aer Lingus plane I feel I am already home. That is a comforting feel. I do not like having to pay for my coffee but that is neither here nor there. It is important to recognise the role Aer Lingus plays on an island for people who are travelling from abroad. We need to engage with the Government about what we can jointly understand as the role the State airline is going to play.

Mr. Halpenny

I will try to answer Deputy Healy's last two questions and I will deal with his last question first. I could not agree more with what he said. I made that point in my submission, although I may not have emphasised it because I did not realise I would have only had five minutes to make it. I prepared a longer submission that would have taken a half hour to deliver — a novel, as is my wont, unlike politicians.

If this is a plan for growth, I agree with Deputy Healy that the logic of it is that it should provide for job growth. There is an appalling mismatch between the stated objectives of the plan and the outcome. As regards the outcome, I agree that ostensibly, the redundancies indicated are voluntary. Members of the committee can take that from the fact that we balloted our members for industrial action in the event of any compulsory measures by the company, not only in terms of redundancies. We were determined from the start to protect a negotiated settlement, if it could be reached, and to guard against an imposed settlement by the company. Nevertheless, our members on the ground have been faced with the attitude of "jump or be pushed". There is no two ways about that.

I will give members two examples of this. In Shannon, people have been told since last March that the third party handling business is gone. That business provided an income stream across three airlines, of which I know — British Airways and two others — of in excess of €500,000, but that counts as little against a strategic decision. I accept the reality that businesses make strategic decisions and otherwise logical positions are set to one side. Nevertheless, despite the denial of the existence of over €500,000 in revenue accruing from third party handling business from at least three airlines, our members were told to pack their bags. They have been told that they can stay but nobody knows where they will be located. For those people, the options are stark. That is why there is an aura of the loss of jobs associated with that business being voluntary, yet nobody knows where those people will be based. In the mind of the ordinary worker who has responsibilities, as we all have, this is an appalling vista. Therefore, Deputy Healy was correct in making that assumption.

There is one small inconsequential area of which members would not know if I did not mention it. It concerns such internal services as are provided in any company of which employees take advantage, ranging from post to transport. The company proposed to outsource most of these functions and we have engaged with it. It wanted to produce savings in the region of €190,000. Through negotiations with the shop stewards and the staff involved, we would have been able to bring the savings down to about €116,000, but the company said that was not enough. This is a difficult arena in which to negotiate.

In another large area, that of catering, there are two companies involved, which I will not name but I will refer to them as company A and company B. Company A is the main transferee or the main contractor with which to deal. The minor one is company B which it is proposed will be contracted to take over a small area of the company's operation. On the same day that we were in the LRC at facilitation talks with the company dealing with that large section, namely, catering, the smaller of the two companies was availing of the services of the LRC, although not willingly. It had been brought there by its union because it was pleading inability to pay the standard increases to its workers. This is case where a State company was proposing to transfer the business and assets of a section of its operation and the workers there to a company which apparently was unable to pay and fulfil its normal obligations under Sustaining Progress. That is the position on the ground.

Willie Walsh made a presentation to this committee, therefore, I presume I can mention his name. A few weeks ago when he appeared before the committee he gave what may be described as a school report entitled, Benchmarking: 12 months to 31 March 2004. For anybody, including Willie Walsh, to say, having read this school report, that Aer Lingus is not in crisis, I question on what planet they are living. We learned that the average cost per passenger for Aer Lingus is €118, for Ryanair, €34 and for easyJet, €61. The average fare for an Aer Lingus customer is €108, for a Ryanair customer, €39.97 and for an easyJet customer, €62.19. Willie Walsh also told us that since he took over in October 2001 he has saved Aer Lingus customers €570 million in fares. That equated to a saving of €30 on average per customer. He also told us the efficiency base in his business plan also equated to a saving of about a further €30. Even taking account of that, his company will still be 100% more expensive than his competitors.

It is a different product.

That is the point to which I am coming. In the three presentations I heard today the word "consumer" was mentioned in only one. Aer Lingus's business is not about providing employment but about providing a service. Its business is also about providing for consumers and customers, as a consequence of which there is employment. It does not happen the other way around. This is not an economics lesson, but a fact of life. When it is said that Aer Lingus is not in crisis, who is paying for all this? It is the taxpayer who is also the consumer.

Only a year ago when attending this committee Willie Walsh said he would not allow the consumer to be ripped off. At a Progressive Democrats conference two years ago in Killarney he was brave to stand up and say that Aer Lingus had ripped of its customers for decades.

Did he not have a vested interest in saying that?

That is what he said. On the occasion he appeared before this committee he said that under the new scheme of things there would be no return to the former model. Those were his comments.

Did he say he wanted to rip off the taxpayer by a management buyout?

The Deputy is correct in that this was at a time when approximately 3,000 to 4,000 extra people were working at the company. If according to an 80%-20% rule, only about 20% of savings on the survival plan to date has been on the basis of staff reductions and 80% has been on the basis of reorganisation of one type or another — he said at one meeting that the ratio was around 80:20 — what were those 4,000 people doing that is different from the new scheme of things when Aer Lingus is in profit? Its business is all about providing for the customer; it is not about employment but about the consumer.

We could do without the speech. Has the Senator a question for any of the representatives?

I am coming to my final question.

Come to the question.

Do the representatives not realise we are living in a different world now and that, as Willie Walsh said in his opening sentence on the last occasion he appeared before this committee, this is an industry in crisis in which he is operating?

I congratulate the members of the delegation. On numerous occasions we have had the opportunity to compliment the senior management of Aer Lingus on the turn around in the company in recent years but we have not had the opportunity to extend the same gratitude to the delegation for the tremendous work it has done on behalf of the workers. I hope you will convey that to them. It was a partnership arrangement between management and the workers that has achieved the current position in which Aer Lingus finds itself.

Mr. Burney spoke about the importance of Aer Lingus in the economic and social life of the country. That was the focus of my contribution at the last meeting with the senior management team. It is particularly important for balanced regional development, which Mr. Halpenny also mentioned. I agree with Senator Morrissey that Aer Lingus is a significant employer. If one were establishing an airline now, one probably would not staff it to the extent that Aer Lingus was staffed. However, when the company is established and people's livelihoods depend on it, one must take a different perspective. One cannot change the structure overnight.

I wish to return to the issue of balanced regional development. I believe Aer Lingus has attempted to undermine the bilateral agreement through the new service it is establishing between Dublin and Florida. There is a stop off in Shannon but it is not a commercial stop. I believe it breaches the spirit of the bilateral agreement. What are the workers' views on that? Have they considered industrial action to force the company to commit to its obligations under the bilateral agreement and, more importantly, its obligations regarding balanced regional development?

In their presentation at the last meeting, Mr. Walsh and senior management set about using a type of scare tactic. Everything was in crisis — the aviation sector throughout the world was in crisis, there were rising oil prices, people were not travelling due to terrorism and so forth. Against that backdrop, however, Mr. Walsh and his colleagues had a plan in place to purchase the company or, at least, to put forward an investment programme to do so. If there was such a crisis, how did they see an opportunity to make money?

I disagree with my colleague, Deputy Mitchell, about there not being people to invest in the company. There is little doubt that Mr. Walsh and his colleagues were sure there were people prepared to invest in the restructured organisation the workers have been central to delivering. I do not have the same fears about the sector. It is changing from a different business model, perhaps more quickly than many of us would like, and there is an opportunity in that restructuring for airlines to be profitable. There has to be. Whatever restructuring takes place, the fittest will survive and prosper and Aer Lingus is well poised to do that with the workers' continued assistance.

There are other issues which have already been covered, particularly with regard to the cargo service. We dealt with the repatriation of bodies and the third party handling. I am from County Clare and I am aware of the difficulty the workers have faced. We are facing a wipe-out situation where Aer Lingus is concerned. Its proposal suggests cutting the workforce in half. It talks about managing Shannon through the manager who is in place at Cork. That is ridiculous.

I am not being critical of the union representatives but I hope they will continue to fight from within to address this. The bulk of the people who have applied for the redundancy are placated. They are correctly recognised for the work they have done and they are entitled to their severance in that regard, but we must take a deeper look at this. I am asking the unions to work with us in terms of the commitment the airline should have to the region and to the people who remain in the company.

The members of the delegation have spoken about their views on the people who remain. However, what about the delivery of service by the national flag carrier? The workers are a powerful organisation and have shown that. They have worked exceptionally well and have delivered for the country for many years. They have also delivered for the company in terms of being prepared to accept restrictions, such as pay foregone and so forth. Now I ask them to do what they believe is in the best interests of the regions to ensure that the airline delivers on its role in terms of balanced regional development and ensuring that the regions continue to prosper.

Mr. Burney

I wish to respond to Senator Morrissey and set the record straight. The last line of my submission mentions the public interest. The public interest means the people who travel on Aer Lingus and the people served by Aer Lingus.

That is twice today.

Mr. Burney

I am just setting the record straight.

He is entitled to set the record straight.

Mr. Burney

Yes, and in meetings such as this people often pick out parts of submissions that suit their own agenda. That is often unsaid so it is important to put the record straight.

There is no crisis in Aer Lingus and it is balderdash to suggest that there is. There is no crisis. The company is hugely profitable. I do not know when one would say that there is not a crisis. What level of profit determines it? It is one of the most profitable companies in the country and it is carrying more passengers than ever.

As I pointed out previously, it is important for the State to decide what it wants the national airline to do. It has to address the issues the Senator raised. It is important that they are addressed but they have not been. At this point it is vital that we have the dialogue that is provided for according to the principles I set out in the document.

Mr. Glynn

I wish to say something about our new fare structure, in case one of our competitors gets the wrong information from this meeting. We implemented a new fare structure on 27 March. All restrictions are removed. Our fares are in line with other low cost carriers and we provide a better service than other carriers to our customers.

It is cheaper in some cases.

Mr. Glynn

Cheap and cheerful.

Mr. Cody

The only way we can make progress is to at least speak a common language. It is clear the company has an agenda of driving down costs and that benefits the consumer. However, we have to be clear about what this involves. The committee has the figures.

What those figures do not show is the fact that Ryanair or easyJet do not provide long haul flights. When one makes a comparison, therefore, it is not a realistic one. Ryanair has chosen only to fly to a limited number of destinations from Ireland. All of them are near Ireland. Look at the expansion of Aer Lingus in recent times. It has commenced flights to destinations in Croatia, Poland and Germany. These are much longer flights. Therefore, the fares on those flights will be more expensive than the fares on the bulk of Ryanair's flights, which are to UK provincial destinations.

Let us take a simple example. Ryanair will fly a person to Stansted in the UK. It is a cheaper airport to land flights. There are fewer costs and charges. If Aer Lingus decided to abandon Heathrow in the morning, it might be to the benefit of the Aer Lingus company but it would be to the detriment of this country as a population centre and an economy. Any business person who wishes to travel to most destinations across the globe must first go to Heathrow, which is an expensive airport, because it is the only place one can get a flight to most cities in the United States, Australia or the Far East.

Any airline that flies into Heathrow will have more expensive charges than Ryanair because Ryanair does not fly into an interlining airport. The same exercise can be done for anywhere else. Ryanair flies into a city in the north of Spain that is closer to France than Barcelona but it calls it Barcelona. If somebody wishes to fly into Barcelona, they must fly with Aer Lingus. Barcelona airport is a more expensive airport than Gerona airport.

Aer Lingus has been driving down costs and we have bought into the dialogue with the company in so far as that is possible or practical. However, we believe the staff are being unfairly rushed and arm-twisted. The political process is under the same pressure and the same agenda to rush into a decision. Members of the committee have asked about voluntary and compulsory redundancy. I will return to the point I made earlier. If a young woman is working half time in this company which, in Aer Lingus language is a five day as opposed to a ten day fortnight, and the company says it will withdraw or remove the entitlement to continue working that way, I do not believe that woman is being given a free choice to remain in the company. If the company said to her it was going to withdraw, eradicate or remove from her the entitlement to continue working like that I do not believe that person is being given a free choice to remain in the company.

The employees are being stampeded or arm-twisted into taking an exit package, even though they may well wish to remain working in the company because they have enjoyed it and would wish to continue to enjoy it. However, they do not want to find themselves trapped by a management decision that they will have to snap up and return to full-time working in an environment where they may have school-going children. Much of the work in this company involves anti-social hours in any event, but people have managed to juggle their lives around it. It they are threatened with the withdrawal of those flexibilities, that anybody working in this building as a staff member has by right, then the issue of voluntary or compulsory becomes a very blurred area.

Mr. Halpenny

There is one important point to make here. Senator Morrissey asked what world are we living in. I have to say that the world we live in may be different from the Senator's because our members and the people we represent — and that is "we", because for the purpose of this exercise we are indivisible from the people we represent — live in one of the most competitive environments there is. That is who we are. We have to live with that and we have to find solutions, even though there are no easy ones. There are people who want easy solutions on all sides — left, right and centre — but down there in the middle where the business is done, solutions are not easy to find. They are hard fought for and they all have a price.

The Senator raised the question of the taxpayer but there is no cost to the taxpayer as far as the entity of Aer Lingus is concerned. It has battled its way through one of the most serious crises in airline history on its own resources. The taxpayer is involved because I an everyone else are taxpayers. I make a choice, although I have to say it is no choice for me, to fly only with Aer Lingus. If somebody wants to go to Amsterdam — the airport is located in Belgium but it is called Amsterdam — that is fair enough, that is their choice. However, if I want to go to Amsterdam, that is my choice and I will fly Aer Lingus as I know exactly what I am getting.

As an ordinary punter, I want fares to come down. Our people have made them come down, not just Mr. Walsh. I do not want to personalise this in any way and I have no intention of doing so., What I am talking about here is a team effort and we, the majority of the team, brought about that profitability and brought those prices down. It was our members.

We would be concerned about the question of the bilateral agreement. The question of Orlando was raised. We were concerned and were in correspondence with the Department on that because it seems to me that the issue still has to be resolved at Government level. Yet, it seems that the management in Aer Lingus took a flyer, no pun intended, on that route.

In so far as the issue of balanced regional development is concerned, I think everything that the unions have tried to do — not just in relation to Aer Lingus but also in relation to Aer Rianta as it was, and the various airport authorities are they are now — has been as much informed by the need to sustain balanced regional development as by any other consideration. However, the bottom line is that our job is to protect the jobs of our members as much as we can. Our job is to maintain sustainable employment. When we look around at some of the people who are "competitors" of Aer Lingus, that accusation could never be made because many of those do not have what would be regarded as decent, sustainable employment. The jobs that supply them are on an outsourcing basis. That is not, as far as we are concerned, what social partnership is about. Nor is it what the commitments of Government are about. The commitments of Government are threefold: the consumer and public interest, the shareholder, and employment. So we are approaching it from that angle and make no apology for doing so.

As regards Cork and Shannon, the committee can rest assured that all our negotiations, and indeed our protective ballot for industrial action, cover Cork and Shannon as much as they do the workers in Dublin. In fact, we are one step ahead of that because in anticipation of what we believe was some kind of change coming down the line — although it is much more extreme than we presumed — we formed a three-airport strategy committee to ensure that there was absolute cohesion on the trade union side in dealing with the employer. It was also to guard against the fact that while the major event might be perceived to be in Dublin, Cork and Shannon would not be left out.

As far as Aer Lingus is concerned there are two elements: ownership and industrial relations. The ownership will be decided by the Government and then we are talking about the parameters of that situation which will be dealt with by industrial relations. I am concerned that there seems to be an impasse in the context of industrial relations. Correct me if I am wrong, because it is vitally important as we go into the future that we have the proper framework for industrial relations resolutions. Is that too strong to say, or what needs to be done to try to get industrial relations on the proper footing required to bring us to a proper solution for the staff, consumers and union members in Aer Lingus?

One of the main issues of which I am aware, following the various submissions and from my constituents, is that of outsourcing. Mr. Halpenny referred to this matter earlier. However, in the context of questions at the last meeting, Mr. Willie Walsh said clearly that he was open to reconsider the situation of outsourcing, provided an alternative option could be reached. He said that would be under consideration during the discussions that were taking place. On the basis of what Mr. Halpenny said, is there a real possibility for alternatives to outsourcing, or were we to take Mr. Walsh at his word at that meeting?

What is Mr. Cody's understanding of any decision that has been taken by the board? We have staff representatives on the board. What has been the decision of the board about the management and future ownership of Aer Lingus? Has a decision been taken at any stage? Has that been directed to the Government at any stage?

I know from where Senator Dooley is coming. In many ways, he was hoping and recommending that the trade unions would fight the case to ensure that Cork and Shannon would not lose out. In the context of the discussions that are taking place about the future direction of Aer Lingus and the strategic role it has to play in the future development of our country, I hope the Senator might be able to influence the Ministers on that sub-committee to ensure that they also play a role.

I have them covered.

Mr. Halpenny

The question the Deputy asked is a good one but there is no easy answer to it. One of the obligations of the employer, as a social partner, is to engage, under the normal rules, with the trade union movement. In this instance, we require that there be continued engagement, that no unilateral action should be taken, that the status quo be maintained while the discussions are taking place and that change should come about by agreement and not by compulsion. That is what is required and that is what gives confidence. If matters do not turn out in quite the way the company desires, it will have to live with that or find, again by agreement, an alternative solution. That is what social partnership means in practice. It is probably evidence of our caution that we had to guard against the possibility that it might not work out like that. Our preference is for negotiation and that the parties will commit to use the machinery of the State — the Labour Relations Commission and the Labour Court — to assist the parties in resolving these difficult matters.

Has there been a breakdown in negotiations?

Mr. Halpenny

There has not been a breakdown, as such, and the company has stated that it is committed. However, we are concerned about the fact that we are engaged in a process which the company is seeking to undermine by releasing people when there is no basis for doing so. We want to agree new work structures and see if these can be delivered. Arising from that, it would then be possible to agree that people can be released. We cannot, however, put the cart before the horse because it would make the exercise meaningless. That is our current concern.

The Deputy also raised the question of outsourcing and the offer to explore alternatives. We sought that more as a reaction than as something that was proactive. We did not seek the outsourcing in the first instance. Some of our members feel that they are almost being given reasons as to why they should be retained, which is not the purpose of the exercise. We are meeting some success in one area but the position is going to be quite stark in others. We will be obliged to confront the company with the contradiction inherent in its own proposal. I referred earlier to the fact that the company is approaching the outsourcing of certain areas in a way which is in conflict with the law of the land and that of Europe in respect of dealing with transfers of undertakings. The acquired rights directives prescribe that people transferring from employer A to employer B should do so with full security in respect of their employment and the rates and terms and conditions attaching thereto.

The company is proposing to transfer those undertakings, minus the workers, on the one hand, or doing so with the workers on effectively reduced pay and conditions because the contract price is considerably below the actual cost of the operation. Companies are, therefore, bidding to take over particular functions at a price below the cost at which they are currently being run. If that is not in conflict with the law relating to the acquired rights directives and transfers of undertakings, I do not know what is. There are all kinds of complications involved and we have impressed upon the company, apart from any other consideration, that it should reconsider the position. That has not prevented us trying to find solutions amenable to the workforce and the shop stewards. Overall, we are pursuing a strategy devised by the shop stewards and the members. Everything we do is consistent with that. The strategy provides us with the flexibility to try to find a solution, where possible, or to process it through the normal procedures, where it is not possible. We are also empowered to confront the company, if required. I cannot answer the final question in respect of the board because I do not have the information.

Mr. Glynn

I liaise with the worker-directors on the board of Aer Lingus and I keep them fully briefed on the trade union's views on such matters. That view has not been requested or asked of me.

Is it not true to say that the chairman and chief executive met the Minister 18 months or two years ago and indicated that the preferred option would be an outside involvement with the company?

Mr. Glynn

In September 2003 the Minister asked the chairman and chief executive of the company to develop proposals and options for it. These remained with the Department until June of this year when another option appeared.

Did the proposals put to the Department have the support of the board of Aer Lingus?

Mr. Glynn

That would be privileged information. I would not be aware of what the board decided.

Mr. Cody

We would not be privy to that because the board does not share what it is doing with us or probably with anyone else. I have heard two versions as to what happened at that stage. One version was that it was an initiative by the chairman and chief executive and the second was that it was an invitation by the then Minister who enticed them into that conversation. Given that I was not present in the room at the time, I cannot answer the question.

Dúirt bean liom go ndúirt bean léi. I thank the members of the CRC, Mr. Glynn, Mr. Berney, Mr. Cody, Ms King and Mr. Halpenny, for coming before the committee. They have given us the other side of the story which is important both for members and the public to know. I wish them well. I also wish Aer Lingus well. It is going to do a tremendous job but it will only be able to do it in partnership.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.10 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 27 October 2004.

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