JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Thursday, 4 Nov 2004

Luas Safety: Presentation.

Chairman

From the Railway Procurement Agency I welcome Mr. Frank Allen, chief executive, and Mr. Michael Sheedy, project manager. From Connex I welcome Mr. Richard Du Jardin, managing director, Connex Transport Ireland, Mr. Brian Brennan, Connex Ireland.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name, in such as way as to make him or her identifiable.

I also wish to point out that we do not want to try to take up the case of individual accidents due to the fact that we could have problems with regard to the courts if that avenue were to be pursued by anybody on an individual basis.

I thank Mr. Allen and his colleagues from Connex for appearing before the joint committee today. It is important that the RPA and Connex should attend the committee together, rather than attending on separate occasions. Perhaps Mr. Allen would like to make some opening comments.

Mr. Frank Allen

I welcome the opportunity to speak to the committee about safety matters concerning the Luas. The Luas green and red lines have been designed and built according to best practice in terms of safety. We looked at light rail systems elsewhere in Europe and took on board the lessons that had been learned there. In all decisions, whether it was route selection, tram selection and so forth, safety considerations were given a high weighting in the decisions that were made. Throughout this process we have had an open relationship with the interim Railway Safety Commission and its predecessor, the railway inspectorate. The people from that office have been involved in all aspects of decision making on the project.

The RPA and Connex have taken on board the spirit and detail of the Rail Safety Bill 2001 and the requirements of that Bill. Even though it has not yet been enacted everything we have done is in full compliance with that legislation. That involved putting in a full safety case. It also involved retaining an independent assessor, somebody who has extensive experience in light rail internationally, to give an independent assessment of all aspects of the infrastructure and operations before it began. We did that in compliance with legislation that has not yet been enacted.

Throughout the process we have had extensive consultation with officials in the Departments of Transport and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government about all signage. New signage had to be developed so there were discussions with the Departments and we agreed on the appropriate signage. Similarly, we worked closely with the three local authorities. A team from one of the local authorities was part of the Luas team from its inception to ensure everything we were doing was not just best practice in terms of light rail but also in terms of the highway.

We have had close consultation and co-operation with the Garda. An inspector was designated as the main Luas liaison and in recent times there has been good co-operation with local garda divisions. We continue to have that good working relationship. With regard to the incidents that have taken place, we are working closely with the Garda to identify what happened, whether there is a pattern and if something needs to be done by either the gardaí, us or everyone together to address them.

Before launching Luas, the RPA reviewed the education programmes put in place in light rail schemes in France, Spain and the UK to see what the specific risks were and how we should go about replicating them. We put in place a more extensive education programme. It was targeted to specific audiences, such as school children, cyclists and motorists and was much more extensive than anything that has been done anywhere else in Europe. That has paid dividends in a better safety record in launching Luas than has been the case in light rail schemes elsewhere in Europe.

The RPA is satisfied that we have designed and implemented a system that meets best practice. It has carried more than 3.5 million people on the green line since the end of June and on the red line in the past four or five weeks. We are concerned about the incidents that have occurred in recent weeks, although they have not resulted in serious injury. We are now taking steps to see if something needs to be done to supplement international best practice, whether there are particular circumstances at the locations in question, whether there are cultural issues in terms of road usage in Ireland or if we need to modify what has been done and has proven to be successful elsewhere. We are doing that in consultation with the National Safety Council, the Garda, the local authorities, Connex and the RPA. We will review each incident in turn to see if there is a pattern and if something can be done to reduce the likelihood of incidents occurring in future.

At all stages, safety has been the major priority. I made it public prior to the launch of the red line, which has far more interaction with other traffic, that we had told the drivers that even if there are people out with stop watches measuring the journey time, they should ignore them. The highest priority is safety and that has involved temporary speed restrictions and less frequency of trams. We will get the journey time and other things right eventually but we have to give safety the highest priority. We will continue to do that with Connex, the Garda, local authorities and the National Safety Council throughout the operation of the project.

Mr. Richard Du Jardin

I will give the committee some background information. Connex is a transport operator which operates other similar light rail systems in Europe and in Australia. Safety is a priority on all of them. On all the schemes we work in close partnership with either a local authority or a public agency such as the RPA.

As Mr. Allen said earlier, we developed a safety case in accordance with the draft Rail Safety Bill 2001 and it was subject to an independent assessment. We work closely with the interim Railway Safety Commission and we have monthly meetings with it to review our operation. Before we started the passenger service we carried out tests with the emergency services to ensure we would be prompt in acting and that there would be proper co-ordination.

When we started the red line we decided to do it with a ten minute headway and to introduce the tram into the street of Dublin at low speed. This type of ramp up is classical in any operation. With regard to our drivers, I wish to emphasise their professionalism. They are doing a fantastic job and they follow the training that was developed from our experience in Stockholm, where we operate both the metro and the tramway, and France. Their training is focused on defensive driving.

There have been ten accidents since the beginning of passenger services on the green line. Three involved people being brought to hospital. We will work to find out the causes of these incidents in conjunction with other bodies. We will also involve our drivers and get their feedback.

Chairman

What is the ratio of incidents on both lines vis-à-vis the mileage? The green line appears to have fewer crossings and intersections than the red line. Has an assessment or survey been done of the proportion of accidents on one line versus the other? Are specific junctions on either line causing problems? Has the number of accidents on one junction been higher than on another? Is there a need for new warning signs at those junctions to warn motorists who may not be aware of the Luas? Might some type of flashing sign as one sees at schools and so forth be introduced? There are no flashing signs at most of the junctions. There are simply signs indicating a train. There are no flashing or amber lights to warn people who might be unaware of the train.

What experience has Connex had with accidents on other lines the company operates in, for example, Sweden or Australia? Is it a question of drivers needing to be educated or is it the case that there will be a certain number of accidents irrespective of what is done?

Mr. Allen

You ask if there is a higher frequency of accidents on one of the lines. There is. The green line has six road junctions, the red line has 34. The interface with other traffic on the highway is obviously much greater on the red line. There have been a number of incidents on the green line and a total of ten incidents. Some of those on the green line, for example, include where the wing mirror of a car has been clipped or where paint damage has been done to the car. The green line has been in operation since the end of June. In total 3.5 million trips have been recorded in the system, of which more than 2.5 million have been on the green line, on which there have been fewer incidents.

We are seeking to ascertain if there is a pattern to such incidents. Without going into specifics, my view is that there is. Incidents occur at red lights. Our view is that there has not been good compliance by motorists at such lights. In the corridor between Heuston Station and Connolly Station there are many streets that intersect with the light rail system. Such incidents are subject to a much more detailed investigation by the Garda which informs me that prosecutions may be pending. Therefore, I need to be cautious in what I say.

Seven of the ten incidents have occurred at red lights. Clearly, there are far more red lights on the red line than on the green line. On the question of whether such incidents occur at specific junctions, they occur at red lights. It is not the case that many have taken place at one particular location. The corridor between Heuston Station and Connolly Station is the area about which we are most concerned.

The Chairman asked whether further warning signs were required. There are warning signs at each junction. There is one junction on the green line where because I live in the neighbourhood I observe traffic movement and where, thankfully, no incident has yet taken place. As one approaches it, there is a sign indicating there are traffic lights ahead. There is also a triangular sign indicating there is a tramway. One then meets the traffic lights at Dunville Avenue where I frequently see people drive straight through the red light. This tends to happen early in the morning or late in the evening when there are not many cars on the road. In the past motorists could drive through the junction when there was no car coming towards them, but there are now traffic lights located there. The difference is that there are trams travelling in either direction.

If I am asked whether there is a pattern emerging, even from the small number of incidents which have occurred to date, it is that motorists do not observe red lights. This is a matter that requires urgent attention and one about which we need to be particularly concerned. Motorists must observe red lights.

We are considering the adequacy of signage. Initially we did what was required of us by statute. We then put up much more signs to supplement those already in place, particularly in places where we felt further signs were required. We are examining the position again to ascertain if more are required at particular locations. However, I am not convinced that the reason a motorist goes through a red light at Dunville Avenue is he or she has not seen the signs, either for the traffic lights or the tramway. Therefore, an incremental sign may have little impact. We are certainly going to put up more signs. On whether I am convinced another sign at the junction mentioned would stop motorists crashing a red light there, I am not.

Chairman

In some cases would a train sign painted on the road similar to a stop sign be more effective?

Mr. Allen

We are also examining the frequency of incidents at heavy rail junctions where there are many gate crashes. One would imagine motorists would stop at such a junction, but obviously that is not the case. There is a pattern of aggressive driving. In discussions I had with representatives of the National Safety Council they told me they had had a stand at an over 50s exhibition at the RDS recently at which they had consulted people about their concerns. Many of the people with whom they had spoken said they were concerned that the green phase, the pedestrian phase, at traffic lights was too short. When they probed further, they were told it was too short because when the pedestrian light turned green, three or four cars still passed by. There is a practice of motorists eating into the pedestrian phase at traffic lights.

While we need to examine all aspects of this issue, we are dealing with the phenomenon of poor compliance at traffic lights. In dealing with safety issues such as this, the representatives of the National Safety Council say we have to examine the engineering, enforcement and education aspects. On the engineering aspect, we are confident that we have developed junctions to the standards required by best practice in terms of signage and so forth. However, after each incident, we need to examine them again in case modifications are required.

On the enforcement aspect, we have spoken to the Garda which has given a commitment that if we can identify — this will be done in consultation with tram drivers — the locations at which incidents are happening more frequently, it will have a greater presence on the ground. Therefore, if the motorist who tends to ignore a red light at Dunville Avenue thought a garda might pop out and stop him or her, this might help.

We have had an extensive education programme, the focus of which perhaps needs to change in the light of experience to date. Before the launch of the project, there was an extensive media campaign during which we targeted specific risks. We examined the experience in other European countries and found that cyclists were at risk. We had an extensive programme under which we invited cyclists to send in a clipping of a newspaper advertisement we ran. In response we issued 5,000 high nvisibility jackets which carried a safety message on the back. With tram drivers I have called to schools to talk to the children about the safety implications of the project. Every bicycle store in Dublin has signs about safety on the Luas. We are targeting those whom we consider are at risk. However, we need to review what we have done to date in the sense that what we did initially was based on international experience, but we now have more of a more track record, especially in the past week.

Many of the incidents involved wing mirrors being clipped from cars or paint damage to a car or tram. While we would prefer if they did not happen, they are minor incidents in the overall context. It does not bother us that they have received major media attention. There was an incident in which limited damage was done which made the headlines in the national newspapers.

Chairman

Does such coverage act as a warning to motorists?

Mr. Allen

Yes. We were pleased that the word is out that people must be careful in the vicinity of the Luas.

Chairman

It is not a toy train.

Mr. Allen

It is not. Some questions were directed to the representatives of Connex.

Chairman

I have one further question. Did any accidents occur during the training period? Did Mr. Allen find that there were fewer accidents during that period, which might indicate that perhaps there was greater vigilance about safety on the part of members of the public?

Mr. Allen

With a total of ten incidents in 3.5 million trips, we are talking about a small sample. In truth, if the pattern emerging in the past ten days was to continue where there has been a number of incidents in quick succession, we would be worried. Prior to this, while we were not complacent, we were pleased that during the trial running period there had been no incident of any substance.

The committee has examined the performance of rail systems in Spain. A light rail system was launched in Barcelona in March this year. During the three week trial running period there were 21 incidents. We have commended our tram drivers for their careful driving. Stacked against the launch of light rail systems elsewhere, we were pleased things were looking good here. However, we are worried that there has been a downward turn recently which we are taking very seriously. We need to see if more can be done to stop this in its tracks.

Mr. Du Jardin

I confirm what Mr. Allen said about the light rail system in Barcelona where we are also the operator. We started the tram service in Bordeaux at the end of last year and there were three or four accidents a month. The rate is now falling but that was the average. In Rouen — a firm we started ten years ago — the same problem with traffic accidents is experienced. Therefore, it is a common pattern in any new system.

Deputy O. Mitchell

I thank the delegation for its presentation. As I think I am the only member present who actually benefits from the Luas, I want to say how pleased I am with the service, as is everyone else who has access to it. It is unfortunate that it only attracts publicity following accidents. However, it is much appreciated. It is very professional and the staff are extremely courteous.

I am perplexed as to why traffic continuously runs red lights. We have had this problem for years. Drivers merrily assume that it is quite acceptable. They accept the level of accidents, yet suddenly when a tram is involved, the tram company is somehow responsible, even though its vehicles are observing the lights. I recognise what has been said, that there is some benefit in alerting people but it is pointless putting up more signs. There is nothing ambiguous about a red light. It is not a new concept; people must learn to obey red lights.

I was studying this matter on the Internet and it seems that where similar problems are experienced in other countries, cameras are placed at junctions, traffic law is rigorously enforced and points or other penalties are applied. In this way motorists quickly learn the traffic lights at which there is a camera. As such cameras are used extensively in traffic management in the city centre, I do not see why there would be a problem about using them at Luas junctions. Has any consideration been given to this?

Going home on the tram last week I noticed that one set of traffic lights was broken on Harcourt Street. The committee has been told Luas drivers drive defensively but I was peppering at how defensively they drove because the trams just stopped. Traffic going the other way merrily ignored the fact that the lights were broken. Luas drivers were waiting for a garda to allow them pass through safely, which was the right thing to do but they were waiting for 20 minutes. This was ironic because they were within one minute's walk of Garda traffic headquarters, yet it took 20 minutes for a garda to turn up. On the news the next morning I heard that the traffic lights had still not been fixed. Luas drivers were again waiting for a garda to arrive. Therefore, the Luas is dependent on gardaí turning up or traffic lights being fixed. A 20 minute delay due to one broken set of traffic lights means every single tram on the line is stopped. What deal has been done with the Garda Síochána or traffic light contractors to ensure delays are not unduly long? It can mess up the system if this happens at a number of junctions. There are only six lights on the green line but many more on the red line. If a couple go down, as can happen, what arrangements are in place to have them fixed?

There are concerns about accidents, particularly at line crossovers where trams seem to be running into one another. What is the explanation for such accidents because I know Luas drivers stop and creep forward when they come to such crossings. There seems to be a problem, although I do not know whether it is related to driver error or the tracks.

I had anticipated accidents involving pedestrians wandering out onto the line but I have not heard of any occurring. What is the experience with pedestrians? Have accidents involving pedestrians presented less of a problem than originally anticipated? Is the company reasonably happy that the safety measures taken — including the little bell which I always think sounds like a toy train — are enough to alert pedestrians that there is a tram in the vicinity?

Chairman

We will take questions first to allow the delegation to reply en bloc. I am making this suggestion because we have to vacate the committee room shortly after 11 a.m. Is that agreed?

Senator Norris

The Order of Business in the Seanad takes place at 10.30 a.m.

Chairman

We will make it.

Deputy Shortall

I welcome the representatives from the RPA and Connex. We all accept that there is a certain period of adjustment for those getting used to trams being on the roads, both motorists and pedestrians, but in recent days there has been a worrying trend concerning the number of incidents. I realise the Chairman does not want us to talk about individual incidents but whatever about accidents involving motorists and trams, I am particularly interested to know about the incident which occurred on 17 September when two trams collided. How did this happen? I would welcome an explanation because it is hard to understand from the outside.

Do the representatives have any estimate of the cost of the various incidents to date? Who is meeting them? Is it Connex or the RPA? What are the insurance arrangements?

I want to ask about the colouring of trams. They are very sleek and have a muted grey, mauve colour that tends to fade into the background, particularly on the many grey days we have in Dublin. I am wondering about their visibility. Have the representatives considered providing any markings to ensure trams would not blend into the streetscape but would stand out visually?

What investigation and reporting mechanisms are in place for incidents involving the Luas? In the Dáil on Tuesday I asked the Minister for Transport about the incident which occurred on 17 September but he had not even received even preliminary report. There are issues as to how such rail incidents are investigated in the absence of a proper rail inspectorate, which is long overdue. The legislation allowing for the establishment of such an inspectorate has been stalled for 18 months. We should have had it in place before the start of the Luas. Why is it that the Minister has not received at least an initial report on the incident involving a collision between two trams?

Chairman

As Senator Norris wants to attend the Order of Business in the Seanad, I ask Deputy Glennon to allow the Senator to speak before him. Is that agreed?

Deputy Glennon

Yes.

Senator Norris

Thank you, Chairman. It is greatly appreciated.

I welcome our distinguished visitors. When Mr. Allen mentioned cultural considerations, I take it that was a coy reference to the fact that we were a nation of amber gamblers. This must be addressed, although I do not think it can in a short period. Until we catch up with the fact that we have trams on the streets, we should take up the Chairman's good suggestion of having flashing lights indicating the presence of a tram. There is now such a proliferation of street signage that people are developing a type of sign blindness, like snow blindness. There is too much of it and if it is static, it does not catch one's attention. However, a pulsating light is effective in warning people of danger, for example, at Merrion Gates where the road meets the DART line. People are aware that something significant is coming along the line due to the flashing signs and lighted barriers.

When gardaí were mentioned at Dunville Avenue, I wrote down "CCTV cameras". I agree with Deputy Mitchell on that point. Such cameras are useful because one is not just relying on the fallible human equipment of a garda. There is a record from which it is presumably possible to detect the licence plate number of a car for a prosecution. That certainly will be part of the educational framework.

I was interested in Mr. Allen's comment that the drivers had been told safety was the prime consideration, even if there were inspectors with stop watches and even if it affected frequency. I welcome that statement. However, I was one of those who strongly supported the introduction of a metro system. Two of the many reasons I gave were, first, the risk of accidents, which have already occurred although luckily none fatal so far, and, second, the fact that the frequency of the trams meant they would be unlikely to be able to carry sufficient numbers to make a significant dent in the traffic problems of Dublin.

Mr. Allen appeared to emphasise the frequency issue. Would he agree that, wonderful as it is for people on the Luas line, we still need a metro to supplement the system so we will have a proper, fully integrated network? There is a stretch of the Luas line from the end of Abbey Street that goes through Beresford Place to the lower end of Gardiner Street. That is a substantial length, probably a couple of hundred yards. In that space there are trams, private motor vehicles and public transport in the form of buses competing for space. That is a prime location for an accident. I am expecting one to happen although I hope it is not with my car. Traffic could get lodged there and when a tram comes along it will not be able to move, particularly at rush hour. The vehicles could be static on the track that is due to be used by the Luas. That is a worry. Can any special measures be taken there?

Deputy Glennon

I join my colleagues in welcoming the representatives of both the RPA and Connex. I congratulate them on the tremendous addition Luas has been to the city's transport system. I agree with Mr. Allen that it is important this sitting of the committee is not seen as a witch hunt but as a useful exercise for everybody concerned in highlighting the safety measures being taken by Luas. If what Mr. Allen says is correct, it will put the onus back on the motorist in a public manner to deal with the existence of the system on our streets.

I have a question about the Heuston-Connolly axis. Mr. Allen said seven of the ten incidents — I will refer to them as "incidents" because there has been an element of over publicity about them — occurred on the Hueston-Connolly axis. I also got the impression that the majority, if not all of them, occurred at lights controlled junctions. Senator Norris made a point about vehicles getting stuck on the line and referred to us as a nation of amber gamblers. I do not know what the corresponding term should be for non-observance of yellow pads.

Senator Norris

Hatch squatters.

Deputy Glennon

I thank the Senator. I thought he was going to the Order of Business in the Seanad.

Senator Norris

I am waiting for it.

Deputy Glennon

In any event, are additional dangers being created by non-observance of the yellow pads by hatch squatters? With regard to the red line, the targeted interval between trams is five minutes. I understand the current interval remains at ten minutes. When is it expected to be down to five minutes? When is it expected to reach the targeted journey time of 43 minutes? I understand the journey time at present is an average of more than 50 minutes.

Deputy Connaughton

I have had the good fortune to use the Luas service on two occasions so far. That is not bad for a man from the west of Ireland. I believe the Luas will dramatically change the traffic in Dublin. We just have to put manners on drivers who break red lights. It is that simple. Anybody who does not understand the significance of a red light should not be on the road. As my colleague, Deputy Mitchell said, there is only one way to catch such people and that is on a camera. I do not believe the national media coverage is bad for Luas. I presume that after an outburst of publicity in the media passengers do not just stop using the Luas the next morning. Obviously, therefore, they are voting with their feet. They know that where safety and security are concerned, the tram is safe. We are familiar with rural railway crossings. On several occasions I have seen drivers drive straight through them, even when the barrier was down.

I sincerely hope a concerted effort will be made through the media to conduct a witch hunt of people who break red lights. That would bring manners back to driving. It would help Luas through many of the technical problems it is experiencing. Now that Luas is part and parcel of how people travel to work, are people using the Luas rather than their cars? Obviously, we want people to get out of their cars and use public transport. Is it true that people are simply switching from using buses to the Luas and not from their cars?

Deputy P. Power

I welcome the representatives of the RPA and Connex. I echo the sentiments of my colleague, Deputy Glennon, regarding the nature of this meeting. It should not be construed, either here or elsewhere, that it might be a witch hunt. It is the opposite.

Could the delegations elaborate on the relationship between the RPA and Connex? I understood the RPA was disengaged once the infrastructure was put in place. What is the precise nature of the legal responsibility for accidents? Thankfully, there have been no serious or major accidents. If there were such an accident, who would carry the responsibility? This also ties into the issue of insurance. Are the RPA and Connex self insured or have they insurance with insurance companies?

We all agree on the central issue that safety is paramount. Having said this, has the projected efficiency of the system been compromised by the emphasis on safety? While I do not wish to denigrate efficiency, safety is more important. How many incidents and/or accidents have taken place since the start?

Senator Morrisey

I too welcome the Connex and RPA delegations. The success of Luas to date is testament to the fact that if we have a clean, reliable, efficient and frequent service, people will rush to use it. While it is not the purpose of this meeting to discuss Luas, we should have more of it. We have a transport corridor between Heuston Station and Connolly Station, but there is no point in having it, like bus corridors, if we do not have public transport vehicles using it all the time.

I am delighted Connex states in its presentation: "Safety is our priority". That is what this and every public transport system needs — safety above all else. Looking back over the events of recent months, my impression is that the RPA and, perhaps, Connex, were resigned to the fact, as mentioned in the comparison with the introduction of a light rail transport system in Barcelona, that there would be accidents in the first year of the new system coming on stream.

Having examined some of the junctions, especially between Connolly Station and Heuston Station where there are many road crossings, the signage is hopelessly inadequate. Signs are placed very high. On a damp wet day motorists do not have a hope of seeing them because they are not in their view. The signs on poles are colourless, plain black and white, and at a height of 12 or 15 feet. On our QBCs and in bus park areas the road is marked in red in certain areas. Why can we not have a coloured area and coloured signage, at least in the crossing areas for motorised traffic? This would highlight the no-go areas.

I have seen motorists in the Talbot Street area driving against the flow of traffic. They have seen the Luas tram a few hundred yards away but know they can get to a break in the road 40 yards away where they can take an illegal right hand turn. Anybody who stands at any of our junctions will see several violations. Part of the reason for this is that people working in the area know there is a ten minute gap between trams and that if they get out, it will only take them two minutes to make the turn. They are taking these shortcuts. The roads in such areas should be better marked. This suggestion should be considered.

If safety is neglected, it is Luas passengers who will be injured by careless motorists. If the issue is that the Garda should be called to enforce the law against motorists, I urge the RPA and Connex to request and demand that be done. They must insist on gardaí presiding at key junctions to enforce the law.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I welcome Mr. Allen and his colleagues. My comments mainly concern the green line which runs through my constituency in Dublin South and which I use frequently. I hope my constituency colleague, Deputy Mitchell, will agree that it has been one of the most successful and welcome projects in south Dublin. It is a popular service. In today's newspaper an economist questions its value and success, but if he was a representative in south Dublin, he would see the huge difference the service has made to the quality of life of the people and the fantastic value for money it represents.

Other transport agencies have commented to the press about the possible loss of business. I imagine Dublin Bus was the source of the story. These transport agencies would be better off arranging their services to link in with the service to which clearly the public is flocking. They should concentrate on getting their services to work in the same fast, efficient manner.

My only concern relates to safety and arises from personal experience. At morning peak times the trams are packed beyond capacity. I am concerned there will be injuries if a tram has to jolt to a stop. People are left behind at stations because when the tram arrives and the doors open, it is not possible to get on. What is RPA procedure in deciding to increase the frequency of services, given the concerns about the quality of the service because of the level of demand? Does the RPA need a Government order or regulation or approval from the Minister to provide for a four minute interval? When the line extends beyond Sandyford to Ballyogan, which I hope will happen as soon as possible, the interval may have to be reduced to two minutes, given the demand there will be for the service. Does the RPA have safety concerns regarding the service's popularity? Is it concerned about overcrowding, particularly in the morning rush hour period?

Mr. Allen

I will act as referee and pass some of the questions to my colleagues. We will try to deal with them as quickly as possible. However, if we skip any, do stop us.

Chairman

We have a deadline. We must finish by 11 a.m.

Mr. Allen

We will move quickly.

Deputy Mitchell and others asked about the use of cameras. This is a matter I have discussed with the Garda. I have asked if cameras could be introduced, even on a pilot basis. I have also discussed the matter with the Dublin Transportation Office. The Garda has informed me that there are legislative impediments or, at least, that evidence recorded by a camera in such a manner may not be admissible in court. This has been placed on the Garda agenda — perhaps it should be placed on all our agendas — as a matter to be advanced.

International experience shows good progress has been made in encouraging motorists to observe red lights where they can expect to receive a photograph in the mail when they fail to observe them. We support the use of cameras and have begun dialogue with the Garda. We are also suggesting to the DTO that it might fund their use on a pilot basis. Even if it was not fully enforceable in court, the presence of cameras improves compliance. During our free days one of my colleagues went to John's Road and stood at the yellow box with a digital camera. There is no law stopping anybody from standing at a junction. While my colleague's camera would not have any legal effect, its presence improved compliance no end.

Deputy O. Mitchell

It would be a cheap solution.

Mr. Allen

Cameras form part of the solution and we encourage their use.

I ask my colleagues to speak on the issues of whether gardaí should be called upon to marshall trams across junctions, crossovers and our experience with pedestrians.

Mr. Michael Sheedy

On the issue of the driver calling the Garda, he was right to stop to wait for assistance. On the figure mentioned, 20 minutes, we are actively working with the Garda to reduce the times involved. We are also involving drivers in the discussions. We are looking at a system whereby at junctions, not necessarily at the top of Harcourt Street only, it will be possible for Connex staff to use an ABC system. This is being discussed with the Garda to try to progress the issue.

There was a question about the number of incidents at crossovers. Perhaps we could pick up on Deputy Shortall's question on the incident of 17 September and the report to the Minister.

Mr. Brian Brennan

The incident of 17 September was our first major incident and the report was submitted on Monday last to the interim Railway Safety Commission. The incident was caused by driver error. Procedures are in place to ensure this does not occur. There is a priority area at St. Stephen's Green but the procedures for this were not followed. Does that answer the question?

Deputy Shortall

Is there any safeguard to deal with driver error? Have other safety precautions been put in place as a result of the collision?

Mr. Brennan

Due to the collision we have markedly increased supervision and have reissued instructions and procedures to staff. This is being constantly monitored.

Mr. Allen

Deputy Olivia Mitchell asked about trams stopping at crossovers. As a tram approaches St. Stephen's Green, the driver will drive very slowly. However, this is due to abundant caution rather than a technical obstacle. The Deputy also inquired about pedestrians, for whom we were very concerned during the trial phase. For example, pedestrians in Abbey Street just wandered all over the track. My understanding is that matters have improved considerably. Will Mr. Brennan comment on this?

Mr. Brennan

Great credit is due to tram drivers in this respect. Pedestrians are still coming out in front of them but due to the speed at which the trams have been introduced, drivers have had the time to stop, which is a credit to their vigilance and professionalism. To date there has not been an incident directly involving a pedestrian and a tram.

Deputy O. Mitchell

Is there any reduction in the number of pedestrians wandering in front of trams?

Mr. Brennan

There is a definite improvement in certain areas. For example, there is a marked difference on Harcourt Street compared to when the service was first launched. However, it takes time.

Deputy O. Mitchell

I hear there is nobody on Harcourt Street at all.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Is there any difficulty in regard to cyclists?

Mr. Allen

Of the ten incidents, only one involved a cyclist. While I was concerned about that incident, there has been good compliance by cyclists and the experience to date has been good.

I think I have covered the issues raised by Deputy Mitchell. In the context of the incident of 17 September, Deputy Shortall asked on the costs of the various incidents, with which Mr. Du Jardin will deal.

Mr. Du Jardin

Connex is insured and bears the risk.

Mr. Allen

I move to Deputy Shortall's next question on the colouring of trams and whether there is sufficient visibility, which suggestion we appreciate and on which we have received correspondence. I will ask Mr. Sheedy to comment.

Mr. Sheedy

While visibility per se may be perceived as an issue, it has not been a factor in the collisions to date. Whether during day or night operation, tram headlights are always in the “on” position. To refer to Senator Morrissey’s question on colouring, we are considering this aspect. There is some coloured roadway at the Blackhorse-Naas Road junction and we are studying this to find out whether it brings additional discipline to driving habits. It is quite a relevant point and I thank the Senator.

Senator Norris was wrong in that amber gambling is not the problem but red gambling. It was rightly pointed out that the majority of incidents to date have happened in the corridor from Heuston Station to Connolly Station. Part of the problem is the physical environment. I pay tribute to the standard of defensive driving by Connex drivers. If one watches tram drivers closely, one will see, particularly out of the centre of town, that they are looking to anticipate mistakes or red light crashing by motorists. They do not always have this opportunity in the city centre where the building lines are very tight and they cannot see or pre-empt malpractice on the part of car drivers. This is one of the fundamental issues but it boils down to the breaking of red lights.

Mr. Allen

To answer some of Deputy Shortall's other questions, we are considering other markings on the trams. At night time, visibility is perfect as there is so much light within the tram it is like a ball of light going through the city. We are taking various initiatives such as keeping the lights on longer to improve visibility, although we do not think this factor has contributed to any of the accidents.

The Deputy asked about investigation reporting arrangements. During the operation phase, Connex is the duty holder and is responsible for safety. Connex is operating in full compliance with the draft legislation. Under this, if an incident occurs, Connex prepares and submits a report and there is involvement with the rail safety inspector. As stated, the interim report on the incident of 17 September was submitted to the interim Railway Safety Commission. In addition, yesterday we had a detailed meeting with the Garda Síochána, the fire service and the ambulance service on how the response was carried out. For every incident, we take time to find out what lessons are to be learned so that such incidents might not recur, whether the response was prompt enough and whether it could be handled differently.

To move to Senator Norris's queries, as Mr. Sheedy stated, the problem is not only amber gambling but also gambling with red lights. When the red light comes on, it appears many motorists take this to mean "only three more cars" may go through. This causes problems if a tram comes along. It was suggested we would lengthen what is called the inter-green period, namely, the period when all traffic is stopped at the junction. However, we feel this would make the junction less efficient because drivers would expect a longer interval and "only five more cars" going through the red light would become the practice. When I referred to cultural issues, the issue of poor compliance with red lights is precisely what I meant.

With regard to flashing lights to indicate the presence of a tram, light rail does not typically have such lights because a tram is a road vehicle. Moreover, when trams are running at greater than a five minute frequency, lights would flash all the time, which would be of limited value. We do not think drivers go through junctions when a tram is coming because they are not aware it is a junction or not aware of the track; they are doing this advisedly. Greater enforcement would be more effective than flashing lights.

Mr. Brennan

The drivers raised this as a possibility and we raised the matter with Iarnród Éireann, among others. Even with flashing lights, Iarnród Éireann has this year experienced 22 collisions of vehicles with level crossings in the greater Dublin area. There is obviously a problem with drivers breaking the lights.

Mr. Allen

Senator Norris referred to closed circuit television cameras. There are many such cameras and perhaps the problem is they are not conspicuous enough to serve as a deterrent. As I stated, there are issues of evidence in regard to camera images being used in prosecutions. I am told there are legislative impediments to this, which is a matter to which we should all give consideration.

The Senator also asked about the metro. There can be accidents on a metro system also although this likelihood is reduced because it is a segregated system. We believe Dublin needs a metro. The very high passenger numbers resulting from the launch of Luas confirm that if a very good service is provided, motorists will leave their cars at home. When we attended the committee some months ago, we discussed projections in regard to the passenger numbers needed to justify a metro. We are now talking about actual passenger numbers which at off-peak and other times are outstanding. The demand for high quality public transport exists and the evidence of recent months demonstrates that high quality service takes people out of cars.

Senator Norris also asked about the Abbey Street, Beresford Place and Gardiner Street area. There was good compliance in that area but recently it has been a little less so. With regard to Senator Norris's point about the occupation of yellow boxes, we are concerned about cars and other vehicles occupying yellow boxes and causing delays to our service but this is different from a motorist running a red light and causing an accident. At the junction of Beresford Place and Gardiner Street, if motorists observe the traffic lights appropriately and all movements take place as they ought, traffic moves together. If motorists are stranded on the junction because they proceeded onto it when traffic was backed up, congestion results and our service is delayed. This, typically, is less likely to cause an accident unless through the indirect effect of a frustrated motorist doing something silly. I hope that addresses Senator Norris's queries.

I appreciate the comments of Deputy Glennon and others on the quality of the service. We are pleased with passenger numbers. I said seven out of ten incidents occur at junctions, not that seven out of ten occur between Heuston and Connolly stations. This is, however, the area of greatest concern because there are so many junctions on that section of the line.

The phenomenon of hatch squatters does exist. It has improved somewhat and we have had strong support from gardaí, particularly at the launch of the red line. Gardaí were stationed at St. John's Road, which is near Heuston Station, for some time and this did make a difference. We need to ensure yellow lines are re-painted more frequently so that people are aware of them. This is a weak excuse but it is an excuse. Assistance from the gardaí is also important. Gardaí cannot be present at every junction but where they have been present there has been better compliance.

The tram frequency on the green line is ten minutes at present. We intend improving it to between seven and seven and a half minutes frequency at the end of this month. We hope to achieve the five minutes frequency target early in 2005. We are improving on a gradual basis for various reasons. One is the need to ensure motorists and other road users are aware of the existence of Luas. We also hope to achieve a better journey time. Between Heuston and Connolly stations we have erected temporary signage for tram drivers. The trams are travelling slower at present because of the recent incidents and this has an effect on the overall journey time. If drivers are told to go slower it will take them longer to get from Tallaght to Connolly Station. We hope to lift that restriction in due course. It will be some time in 2005 before we reach our target journey time. We are not putting extreme pressure on anyone to reach that point. No one would thank us if that were to result in accidents. It is not our highest priority.

Mr. Brennan

Drivers will be fully consulted on the question of increasing frequency to seven and a half minutes. It is they who have the experience and the best judgment on the improvements which are taking place.

Mr. Allen

Deputy Connaughton referred to people in the west who do not observe restrictions at level crossings. That is a similar phenomenon to people not observing red lights in urban areas. He asked if those who travel by Luas are merely former bus passengers. There are, of course, people who have switched from bus to light rail. That is to be expected. However, a high proportion of our customers did not use public transport previously. We call this car transfer. On the green line, we estimate that approximately half our passengers are in that category. If the proportion is that high — and we need to survey it further — it is extraordinarily high by international standards. In Nottingham they are hoping to achieve a 4% car transfer. We think we might be at approximately 50% car transfer. That is also consistent with the experience of Dublin Bus where changes in passenger numbers have been noted, particularly on certain services. If one observes the decline in numbers travelling on buses and how many are using Luas, the figures do not add up. Many Luas passengers must be car transfer passengers.

This does not mean there is no longer congestion between 8 a.m. and 9 a.m. It means some people no longer have to get up an 5.40 a.m. to drive to the city centre ahead of the traffic. Our busiest tram is the one that arrives in St. Stephen's Green at 8.50 a.m. There are people who walk to their Luas stop at 8.35 a.m., are at St. Stephen's Green at 8.50 a.m. and are in their offices at 9 a.m., rather than having to get up at an unearthly hour of the morning wondering where they will find parking in the city centre. That is the sort of change light rail has brought to the travelling public.

It is sometimes thought there is a fixed number of passenger trips and that all transport systems share in the same pie. Light rail has expanded that pie enormously. City centre traders have confirmed this finding. The city centre has become a more vibrant and economically active place. A high proportion of trips on Luas are discretionary trips taken in the off-peak period. It is not simply a question of people who used drive to work now taking the tram. People are now inclined to go into town on Saturdays and take the tram home again. People who, previously, would have driven to Liffey Valley now take the tram to the city centre. Owners of restaurants, wine stores, bookshops and umpteen other businesses have told us that business in the vicinity of light rail has been great. That is reassuring for us and instructive for future light rail lines.

Mr. Brennan

Dublin Bus has been mentioned a number of times. Should we have difficulties we have an arrangement with Dublin Bus. Their support and response to us has been superb. That partnership is working well.

Mr. Allen

I thank Deputy Power for his kind comments. He thought the RPA should have been disbanded by now. We continue to have responsibility to work closely with Connex. There is a contractual relationship, which was discussed at a previous meeting of this committee. Connex is responsible for operating Luas but we continue to have a responsibility, partly in supervision and partly in working closely with Connex. We see issues such as safety as a joint responsibility and we still have much to do. Our priority is now to look at Luas extensions and other projects. We still have work to do on the Luas red and green lines.

Deputy Power asked if there is a compromise between efficiency and safety. In a sense there is. We have made decisions to run the trams slower and less frequently in this build up phase. That makes the tram a little less attractive to potential passengers. We are leaving people behind at stops, which we would rather not do. From a commercial point of view we would like to take everyone on board. We feel this is a price worth paying. It is important to bed in better discipline and then to build up the high frequency.

Senator Morrissey was of the opinion that we might be resigned to accidents. I too have read this in the newspapers. It is not true. We have looked at the incidence of accidents elsewhere, tried to track them to see what caused them and do everything possible to prevent them happening here. Our communications and education programme prior to launch was more extensive than that of any other light rail system. We are not resigned to having a certain number of accidents every year. That is certainly not our view, one accident is one too many for us. The National Safety Council said to me during the week that there had been 3.5 million trips on public transport since June with ten incidents, some of which involved paint damage to cars or damage to wing mirrors. That is a fairly good record. Our concern is to keep it like that, and if we have concerns from the past week or so, they have been more than damage to paintwork or wing mirrors. We want to maintain that, but we are not resigned in any way to having accidents.

On the adequacy of signage, we will take on board the committee's suggestions. We operate within statutes. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government tells one where to put signs, and we agree all the signage with it. The point was made that sometimes there is a proliferation of signage. Some specialist advice given to us has said that, if one wants more effective signage, one should go out on the street and take down a great deal of it. If one has far less, people may pay more attention. However, we are operating in an environment where there is a great deal of signage already, and we must compete for the attention of the pedestrian, the motorist and the cyclist. As Mr. Sheedy said, we have redded the street in various places, and we are seeing how it works. It functions with the same principles as a quality bus corridor. When one approaches it, there is a great deal of redding there. We have done it in Blackhorse, Harcourt Street and a few other places. If that proves effective, we will do more.

It is true that because of the ten-minute headway before the tram comes, people feel they can nip over or cut in. It is another trade-off between achieving full frequency of trams and not having people thinking it will be ages before another comes. I believe this will happen less when we have five-minute frequency.

Mr. Brennan

One must remember there is also a Luas coming in the other direction.

Mr. Allen

I appreciate Deputy Eamon Ryan's favourable comments and his business on the green line. We believe it represents great value for money and I believe the public accepts and welcomes that. The passenger numbers are great. In June, before the launch of the service, I was trying to convince people on the airwaves, including on "Morning Ireland", that people would actually use it and that our projected passenger numbers were realistic. It was argued that we did not even have the capacity for the number I envisaged. The passenger numbers have come, and we need to respond to that by seeing if we can run a more frequent service. That is not something one can do overnight. One has to do it in consultation with the city council, but I believe it would be very favourably disposed to such proposals, which could stretch to running with four-minute frequency, which would make a significant difference.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Does Mr. Allen agree that, during the crucial morning hour between 8 a.m. and 9 a.m., the trams are now full to capacity?

Mr. Allen

I have on occasion had to wait for the next tram. That can happen. My estimate is that we have between four and five people per square metre in a tram, not having measured it very scientifically. The DART can have up to six people per square metre. That is uncomfortable, and we do not want a situation where we get so crowded that it gets uncomfortable. It may happen that those people who in the past got up at an unearthly hour and drove to work now come out at 8.35 a.m. to get into St. Stephen's Green at 8.50 a.m. In future, they might get up a little earlier and get the tram at 8.20 a.m. rather than 8.40 a.m. There might be an element of peak spreading there. Regarding efficiency and value for money, one cannot always chase after that very last peak within the peak.

However, I agree there are capacity issues, with which we will deal quite soon. We must do that to see if we can run trams with greater frequency. On the green line, our journey time is consistently approximately 20 minutes. The announced journey time is 22 minutes. We must ensure we have tram capacity, and we have the capacity to do some more. We must have the infrastructure. It would not need a full railway Order again, but we would need the assistance and co-operation of Dublin City Council. We are examining that. We are delighted that, a few months into the service, we are dealing with the issue of whether we have enough capacity, considering that, some months ago, people said to us they would be rattling around empty.

Mr. Sheedy

I am not sure if Deputy Ryan was raising the question of the structural capacity of the trams to carry the crowds. It is designed to perform to full specification with up to eight passengers per square metre, which we never actually achieve. There is full acceleration and full braking capability.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

There were almost eight passengers in my square metre this morning.

Chairman

I thank the delegation for attending and explaining matters to us. This meeting should not be seen as a witch hunt against Luas or anything else. We wish to highlight to the public the need for vigilance on the part of pedestrians and car owners when it comes to dealing with Luas junctions on both lines. Perhaps the delegation might find another mechanism to improve the signage at some of those very dangerous junctions. Whether through amber lights or warning signs of various types, it needs to be done.

At the next meeting, we will deal with Iarnród Éireann and the situation on the western railway lines, namely, the Dublin-Sligo line and the Dublin-Westport line, and the continual problems experienced by commuters and others regarding breakdown, especially those last weekend, when the Dublin-Sligo train broke down on four successive days.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.06 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 10 November 2004.