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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 9 Nov 2005

Aviation Regulation: Presentation.

The next item on our agenda is a discussion with the commissioner for aviation regulation, Mr. William Prasifka. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Prasifka and his representatives from the Commission for Aviation Regulation, Mr. Cathal Guiomard, head of economic affairs, and Ms Phil Conlon, deputy head of travel trade. A copy of Mr. Prasifka's presentation and some background information have been circulated to members of the joint committee.

Before we commence, I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee has absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. William Prasifka

I was first asked to come before the committee on 5 October 2005 but I had arranged to visit my mother in Los Angeles following the completion of our determination. The Chairman of the committee suggested that our delegation's appearance before the committee could be deferred, for which my mother and I thank the committee.

I read the transcript of the meeting held on 5 October and will address in my introductory remarks some of the issues discussed on that occasion. I will then briefly discuss denied boarding and airport charges. The topic which largely occupied the committee on 5 October was illegal trading in the travel industry, which I will put in context to illustrate the problem we face and what we have attempted to do about this very important area.

I must reluctantly state that the travel trade frequently acts in contravention of the licensing regime. The bonding scheme was established as a result of the concern that if a travel agent or tour operator went bankrupt, consumers would be out of pocket and unable to travel and people who had already reached their destination could be left stranded. The bonding scheme requires an annual renewal of the licence application, which is generally carried out at the end of April and the end of October. At the end of the licensing period, a significant number of existing tour operators and travel agents invariably do not send in their paperwork, accounts and bonds on time. Following an examination of this file this morning, I discovered that approximately one-third of those travel agents and tour operators whose licences have expired at the end of October have not completed their paperwork so that they can have their licences renewed.

We often hear calls from the travel industry for us to aggressively enforce the existing legislation and we take these calls very seriously. It must be pointed out that many in the industry do not give sufficient care and attention to getting their own houses in order. This inevitably leads to these tour operators and travel agents operating without a licence for a period of time, which is generally short, leading to an increase in the burden on our office because we must chase them for the paperwork. It also undermines the integrity of the entire system.

The Commission on Aviation Regulation has taken the prosecution of illegal trading very seriously and has devoted a significant amount of resources to it. Prosecuting illegal trading is costly and time-consuming. It requires the collection of evidence. Witness statements, documentation demonstrating actual transfer of money, banking statements and cancelled cheques must be collected by the commission. This inevitably means going to court to seek search warrants. We must build up a book of evidence, which must be sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions, who then gives us a direction. On foot of that, we must initiate a legal process. The entire process is very time-consuming and costly and requires the investment of an intensive amount of resources on the part of the commission. Some speakers at the committee meeting on 5 October stated that they wished we could carry out matters more quickly. We operate through the legal process, which is costly and time-consuming.

Once a case is prepared, we go to court and the court imposes the fine. In one high-profile case in Limerick, we finally went to court after going through a very lengthy and costly process. The judge heard all the evidence and levied a fine of €1,000 on the individual who was trading without a licence. An award of €500 was made for our costs and I do not need to tell anyone here that our costs were far in excess of this figure. These are the circumstances in which we operate.

The question arises as to the extent to which the travel industry and consumers are willing to pay more for vigorous enforcement. It is not clear to us that consumers are fully aware of the benefits of the statutory regime. The fact that increasing numbers of consumers book their holidays with airlines on the Internet, which operates outside the bonding scheme, is evidence of this. This phenomenon exists throughout the developed world. These consumers are effectively bypassing the licensing regime and indicating that they are unaware of or unwilling to pay more for the protection afforded by licensing.

In these circumstances, we have attempted to be proactive and have initiated and successfully completed seven prosecutions since the establishment of the Commission for Aviation Regulation. Prior to the establishment of the commission, these functions were the responsibility of the Department of Transport. We are not aware of any prosecutions before the establishment of the commission. We have brought prosecutions but we are not funded by the Exchequer. We are only funded by the licence fees we collect from the travel industry. The fee for a licence renewal for travel agents is €300, which has not increased since the establishment of the commission. We are presenting the industry with a regulatory contract. Travel agents and tour operators pay us the fee and we administer and enforce it. We have kept up our side of the contract. We have not raised the fee and have brought more enforcement but would like to see the industry take a more proactive role in setting its own house in order and bringing the advantages of going through a licensed travel agent or tour operator to the attention of the travelling public. The advantages are that travellers receive statutory protection and we can administer this regime very efficiently and effectively to ensure that no individual is stranded abroad. These are the major issues we face that relate to the regulatory regime. I wished to put them in context because they were discussed in this committee on 5 October 2005.

I will briefly discuss two matters in which the committee is interested. We are happy to address any follow-up questions. The denied boarding compensation regime was established pursuant to Regulation (EC) 261/2004. This function was transferred to the commission only on 31 May 2005. The commission has one staff member who deals with this matter, in conjunction with some members of our existing legal team. The committee may be aware that there is some uncertainty about the application of the regulation in question. Some consumers believe they are entitled to compensation any time there is a delay.

That is not what the scheme states. There are exemptions for extraordinary circumstances. I am aware some issues have been raised about when precisely these circumstances arise. This is a matter on which there is a degree of uncertainty, not only in the public mind but also among member states. We have actively studied the matter and have liaised with other European jurisdictions and with the Commission itself. Members may be aware that as this EU regulation has been subjected to a legal challenge, some uncertainty still exists. However, I can assure members we are examining the issue very carefully. We take our responsibilities seriously and are actively working with the airports and the airlines to ensure this regulation is enforced in Ireland. At present, enforcement is a work in progress, because the relevant airline is the first port of call for a passenger who believes he or she is entitled to compensation. If such passengers do not receive satisfaction, they can then complain to the Commission for Aviation Regulation and we will take up the matter with the airline. We have certain powers to issue directions or ultimately to go to court seeking fines. That process is working itself out, but we are pleased to report there is an ongoing process and we are optimistic this regime can be enforced in Ireland.

The last issue in which I believe members will be interested is that of airport charges. I will introduce it by way of providing some background on our office and what we have done to date. The office was established in February 2001 and our primary statutory obligations are the setting of maximum levels of airport charges and — a matter which receives somewhat less attention — the setting of aviation terminal services charges. These are charges levied by the Irish Aviation Authority. We were given six months to put in place the first price cap, which we did at the end of August 2001. That price cap was to run for five years, until the end of September 2006. The State Airports Act 2004 directed us to put in place a new determination by 1 October 2005, which we have done.

Under the old price cap, the maximum level of charges per passenger at Dublin Airport for the year 2005 was €4.90. According to the new price cap, which comes into effect in January 2006, that will rise to €6 per passenger and will then increase in stages for a four year period. Hence, our work is done. However, the price cap can be considered a work in progress for a couple of reasons. The legislation provides for an appeal of our determination and it must be set in motion by the end of the year. It provides that once the Minister has received an application from an interested party which he believes to be substantive, he may establish an appeals panel, which has two months to consider any issues before making a referral to the commission. Hence, there is potential for the determination to be amended in the relatively short term.

The legislation also provides that the commission may review the price cap on its own initiative at any time we see fit, providing we believe there are substantial grounds for so doing. In our most recent determination, we stated that because of a number of factors, there was considerable uncertainty about the capital expenditure programme at Dublin Airport. We were presented with a programme extremely late in the day and could not examine it adequately. We have stated we will examine the programme and if we feel there are substantial grounds arising from that, we can start a review on our own initiative. Without detaining the joint committee with too much detail, the State Airports Act also provides that we must perform a review after restructuring of the airports takes place. The State Airports Act contemplates that at some time in the future, Cork Airport and Shannon Airport will be separately vested as independent airports and if this were to happen, we would perform a review of the determination.

Before turning over the discussion to members, I wish to clarify one aspect of Mr. Prasifka's presentation, in which he indicated that one third of tour operators have not been licensed. Is that correct?

Mr. Prasifka

To clarify, there are basically two tranches of applications for licences, one at the end of April and the other at the end of October. Hence, the licences of those who received them in April have not expired. I spoke about only those travel agents and tour operators whose licences expired at the end of October. This is the second week in November and approximately one third of them do not have licences. We know of some entities which have no intention of trading again and have decided to walk away. We have been informed that there is a handful of such cases. However, the majority of them are entities which are trading and plan to continue to so do.

Excluding those entities which will not continue trading, in general, on a pro rata basis, one third of those who have travelled since 1 November do not have the benefits of licensed operators and are travelling at risk. Am I correct?

Mr. Prasifka

No, one must separate those whose licences have expired. Many people may be travelling under arrangements which arose prior to the expiration of the licence. However, this problem arises every time a licensing round ends. How should this be addressed? We are in contact with all the affected firms and we update our website. We have given notice to consumers that certain entities' licences have not been renewed. We are obliged to make a decision about initiating prosecutions. I stated that we had seven successful prosecutions. Some of those have arisen on foot of people who have not got their licences.

I thank Mr. Prasifka for his presentation. As he has answered many of my questions, I seek clarification on a number of points. On illegal trading in the travel agency business, the committee's previous discussion on this issue centred on bodies such as the GAA planning trips, parish priests planning pilgrimages, schools trips or whatever. Mr. Prasifka has spoken about the difficulty of enforcement. In his opinion, is there a legislative solution to this problem? It seems an enormous waste of time, money and energy to try to stop it in the first place. Are such trips not bonded or are they outside the available protection? Apart from the issue of illegality, what is the downside from the consumers' point of view? Is there a solution? I am sure travel agents do not want a legislative solution, but want such activities included under the existing umbrella. Can this practice be prevented by legislation? I am uncertain whether that is possible.

The other question concerns the airport charges issue. Constant reviews of charges are not good for consumers. While I am open to correction and I realise the commissioner has a statutory obligation in this respect, it must be extremely difficult for Mr. Prasifka to determine a charge and for the Dublin Airport Authority to determine its needs, without a business plan. Neither Dublin Airport nor the other airports for which the Dublin Airport Authority still has authority have business plans. Moreover, the authority does not know what its debt burden will be. Is it reasonable to determine a charge and to have an investment plan without knowing the ongoing costs and debt burden? What is Mr.Prasifka's view in respect of charges being justified not to run the airport as it is but to invest in a runway and a terminal? Is it reasonable and right that current users of the airport should pay for something that will not be available for several years? It is not common practice in business to increase prices in advance of providing a service.

I welcome Mr. Prasifka and his colleagues. A couple of questions arise from his presentation. The first relates to tour operators who have not renewed their licences on time. Does cover cease immediately or is there a period of grace? What powers has the Commissioner to withdraw cover? He mentioned that the power to prosecute was weak and that it would be costly and so on. Is there any other action that can be taken against tour operators? What implications would there be for consumers? Is this something consumers need to be warned about? Do they need to check that the tour operator's licence is up to date?

When we met the tour operators last month it emerged that complaints had been made to members of the committee that on a fairly regular basis people travelling with a tour operator are brought to the airport or told to be at the airport at a certain time and are brought through to the departure area to discover at that point that the plane on which they are scheduled to travel has not yet left the airport in Portugal, Spain or elsewhere. The question was raised as to whose responsibility it is to ensure that people are not left waiting around for hours, in some cases up to 24 hours. Is it the airlines' responsibility or that of the tour operators to ensure there is no undue delay? Who should tell the customers if it is known in advance that a plane will not be ready?

I also want to ask about the fact that there is no requirement for airlines to be bonded. Has the Commissioner been active in drawing that to the Government's attention? In recent years newly set up airlines have gone bankrupt within a short period and people who had bought tickets have had to bear the loss. What can be done about that? In the past a requirement for tour operators to be bonded was brought in. Would the Commissioner accept the same need in respect of airlines? What action has he taken on that?

In respect of airport charges, it is extraordinary that the Commissioner did not have all the information necessary in respect of the proposed plans of the Dublin Airport Authority and the other airport authorities prior to making a determination. I wonder why that was. Everybody would have known the Commissioner was due to make a new determination in September. Had he formally requested that information from the three airport authorities? Has he now received all of the information in respect of the plans for the second terminal and the new runway, and when does he expect to be in a position to review his determination in light of those two major development proposals?

Mr. Prasifka

I will begin with Deputy Olivia Mitchell's questions. The first related to illegal trading, whether there is a legislative solution and what the downside is. The downside for people who book their travel with an entity that is not licensed is that if anything happens to that entity they have no statutory protection. As was discussed on 5 October, sometimes this happens in the most casual of circumstances. There can simply be a group of people, a residents' committee or even a group of friends, one of whom offers to book the tickets and the hotel and arranges for the others to pay him or her separately. If that person runs away with the money there is no legislative protection.

From our position, in terms of illegal trading, we have to exercise a certain amount of judgment. Very casual trading is something that operates almost entirely beneath the radar screen and is something we are not able to police in any way. Where we have acted is where matters rise above the radar screen. Certain entities have advertised in newspapers. Those that are, perhaps, not quite clever may do so and they are often brought to our attention by the trade. Those that are operating above the radar screen, organising what could be quite large tours, raise very serious concerns. If someone is taking 200 people for a rugby weekend and the people arrive and find that the hotel or the return airline will not honour the commitment, all these people are stranded and a small disaster becomes a social disaster. That is the problem. The problem with illegal operators is that a potentially sizeable number of people can be absolutely stranded.

The question is whether we can do anything about that. It is not an easy question to answer. At a certain level, there is nothing anyone can do regarding casual illegal trading, where five people decide to travel and the fifth person holding all the money has not paid the hotel or the airline and everyone is stranded. In circumstances involving larger groups of people there is a problem. The question is whether there is a legislative solution. One solution proposed in the UK is to impose a tax of £1 on all airline tickets so that some kind of reserve fund can be built up. That may be one solution, but is it cost-effective? The simple answer is that I do not know. There is no easy solution to the problem but it should be recognised that, no matter what anyone does, it is not possible to stop all illegal trading.

The second question was about airport charges where there is no business plan available at the time. As I understand it, the Deputy is talking about the restructuring of the airports with Cork and Shannon being separately vested. What the State Airports Act provided was that we did not have to take account of the restructuring until it took place. The existing determination that we had to put in place by 1 October does not, therefore, take account of the restructuring because it has not taken place yet. The question is why were we asked to do it. Perhaps that question should be asked of the Department of Transport. The legislation provided that we had to do a determination by 1 October. If the restructuring had not taken place, we would do a review after the restructuring had taken place. As members of the committee know, the restructuring has not taken place and we do not know what it will look like. Once that takes place we will have to have due regard to all those factors, including where the assets and liabilities have gone. We will do that at that future point.

The third question was what our view was on the timing of the airport charges, how they should reflect investments that are made, and whether we should effectively force people to pay now for facilities that may not come into place until some time in the future. This issue arises in several different contexts. Some people have claimed that we increased charges by 23% but that new facilities may not be available for two, three or four years. The charges that were put in place reflect a number of different factors, only one of which is the introduction of new facilities or infrastructure.

Will Mr. Prasifka repeat the last sentence?

Mr. Prasifka

The charges reflect a number of factors, only one of which is the need for additional infrastructure. What we have found in particular, when comparing the operating costs of Dublin Airport in 2001 and even 2004, is that there have been substantial increases in certain areas. The sizeable increase in security costs which was unavoidable has driven a substantial increase in airport charges. However, a portion has also been driven by the need for new investment. We had to decide what was in the best interests of consumers, as well as economic efficiency and actually paying for what we felt was needed infrastructural development. One approach is that consumers will pay only when the entire facility has been built and completed. If we were to take this approach, one would have a charging regime where there would be greater fluctuation in charges, effectively periodic shocks to the airport charging regime, reflecting the fact that airport investment is famous for being lumpy, by which I mean one has to invest in substantial tranches of additional capacity. When one runway is full, one cannot build half a runway; one must build a full runway which initially may be under-utilised before it reaches capacity.

What we have found is that to have a more stable regulatory regime, it makes much more sense to smooth out costs over time, as that would ultimately benefit consumers. We have the regime which is common in many other regulatory systems that we provide for investment in the charging regime at the time it is incurred. The net effect is that once a facility is completely available, the step increase is less than it would be because a portion of the cost has been borne. The net effect of our charging regime is that the net present value of the cost to the consumer is not changed but smoothed over time. We think that giving an element of stability is good, both for the airport in terms of its financial planning as well as users of the airport. It is not a decision that the Commission for Aviation Regulation made lightly, but one which we believe is in the best interests of consumers.

In taking that approach is there a danger of increased charges being gobbled up in increased costs not associated with investment?

Mr. Prasifka

No, because the only costs the commission provides for in airport charges, whether operational costs or infrastructural costs, are ones we have independently assessed as being efficient. We have no automatic mechanism whereby an increment of cost for whatever reason is put through. If we did this, we would not be doing our job. We would not be providing for effective regulation. Any cost we bring forward is brought forward on the basis that it has been independently verified.

What would be the position if the charge were to be in place for the next five years, with no investment being made during that period?

Mr. Prasifka

These are issues we have considered in making the current determination. There is a review mechanism. In regard to the current price cap, we have allocated approximately €85 million per year to Dublin Airport to invest. If we were to find, for example, that the amount of investment is significantly less, for whatever reason, obviously in any subsequent review, we would have an opportunity to review the price cap. There is a mechanism known as "rolling forward at the regulatory asset base" whereby one must make judgments on the basis of what has happened in the past. That is part of our continuous monitoring of the airport. We have always been very clear that we do not accept, regardless of what will be done in the future, that there is an automatic price increase or decrease.

Mr. Prasifka mentioned that a charge had made some provision for investment that, in fact, had never been made.

Mr. Prasifka

We had one issue in the current determination. Back in 2001 when we had set out our proposed capital investment programme for Dublin Airport, it was our view that Pier D needed to be built. Pier D has had a rather long history and for a variety of reasons was not built. In the circumstances we had provided for a payment in respect of Pier D but consumers never received the benefit. Acknowledging our role in incentivising the airport to operate efficiently, we had to make a downward adjustment in the price cap in recognition of the fact that consumers had paid for something they had never received.

That answers my question.

Have all Deputy Shortall's questions been answered?

Mr. Prasifka

Deputy Shortall questioned whether consumers who had dealt with entities which had not renewed their licences were left completely without cover. The answer is no. Under the current licensing regime, bonding is required. The bond remains in place for a period of six months following the expiration of the regulatory period. If one of the entities were to go wallop, the bond would still be in place and could be drawn down. There are circumstances in which the bond can be held for even a longer period. We can hold it. If there were circumstances where an entity had not renewed its licence and we felt there was still a need to keep the bond, we could keep it for a period of time. However, it is an offence for an entity to trade without a licence. That is an issue we take seriously.

The boding of airlines is a common topic at aviation conferences and always raised by the travel industry. Obviously, certain members of the travel industry say there is not a level playing field, that while they have to go through a very exhaustive licensing and bonding scheme, airlines do not. The reason for this is that at international level airlines can be well organised and have successfully avoided attempts at bonding. It seems any suggestion they should be bonded is a matter for the Department of Transport, not for the Commission for Aviation Regulation. If they were to be bonded, it would have to take place in an international context. I am not sure if we can say anything further on the issue.

Deputy Shortall asked about airport charges and how we did not have all the information required in making our determination. The answer is very simple. As members will be aware, a new board was put in place at Dublin Airport on 1 October. A new chief executive took up office during the second week of April. They wanted — I think justifiably — to re-examine their capital expenditure programme. We were presented with a version of the programme in May this year which we used as the basis for our draft determination. That is the document we issue to all interested parties which could provide a basis for consultation. At that stage the Dublin Airport Authority decided it wanted a comprehensive re-examination. Its stated intention was to engage the stakeholders and airlines to rethink the next phase of capital development at the airport. Having been around airports for a little while, we knew this would be a very time consuming process, but we supported completely the idea of consultation between airports and airlines and welcomed the authority's idea. For many airports, such a process would take two or three years. We understood the reasoning behind a comprehensive evaluation and, to respond to Deputy Shortall, constantly requested information on it. We were in touch with Dublin Airport at all stages of the process.

We published our draft determination on 1 June. Ten days later we were involved in meetings with the authority during which we were informed it would comprehensively review the capital expenditure programme. We agreed that was exactly what the authority should do and endorsed its intention to communicate with the airlines. We asked it to keep us informed and met its consultants to receive a briefing on their activities and the major stakeholders. We wanted to receive the information and were prepared to deal with it, but the process took time. We received the Pascall and Watson report only 72 hours before we made our final determination. Everyone will understand that was not enough time for us to meet our statutory responsibility of independent verification.

Since the determination was published, we have met Dublin Airport representatives and they understand our position. The capital review is ongoing. While the initial work of the airport's consultants has been completed and represents a high level footprint of the airport, there are many other decisions which have to be made on timing, sequencing and the characterisation and detail of certain projects. We expect to be fully engaged and briefed in that context, but we must all realise that the overall project is enormous. While it is not entirely in our hands to determine the point at which we will receive the information, we hope substantial progress on achieving a better understanding of the capital expenditure plans of the airport can be made within the next three months. Once that happens, we can begin a process of examination and decide whether there are substantial grounds to trigger a review. I am optimistic that we can begin within three to six months.

I compliment the delegation on the information its members have provided. I welcome them to the committee. The commissioner has indicated that the legal process available to him to deal with those who have not submitted documentation relating to the renewal of a licence is cumbersome and less than easy to use. Have recommendations been made to the Government on legislative measures to simplify the process or provide the commissioner with more draconian powers to deal with unlicensed operators, especially those who have failed to renew? Companies must deal with Revenue issues by a certain date or face certain sanctions and seem to get their paperwork done. While I am no expert, in this context I imagine companies could provide their documentation in time if powers of sanction were available to the commissioner.

In what direction does the commissioner see his role going in a deregulated environment, especially with the introduction of competition among the three international airports? Will his role involve setting charges through the complicated, difficult matrix he has outlined or will prices be dictated through open competition? I do not suggest the commissioner should tell the committee he is going out of business.

I join my colleagues in welcoming the commissioner and his colleagues. Following on from Senator Dooley's question, I detect more than a hint of frustration in the commissioner's attitude to his capacity to prosecute. What can be done to facilitate him and to bring his powers to an appropriate level?

In the context of the review of charges in other areas, at what level would the commissioner set the current €300 annual fee? Regardless of any future plans it has, the Dublin Airport Authority is charged with the task of delivering facilities at Dublin Airport. IBEC, various tourism authorities and the findings of a survey on the commissioner's website appear to indicate that there is significant additional capacity for charges. While the findings of the survey on the website indicate the majority of passengers are prepared to pay up to €3 extra for service improvements, the increase the commissioner introduced was the source of significant disappointment for everyone concerned. Will he explain the logic behind the decision?

The commissioner mentioned significantly increased costs at Dublin Airport in the past five years, especially security costs. I would have thought they had increased dramatically at airports worldwide. Has there been a specific component at Dublin Airport which differentiates it from other airports?

Certain leading players in the business who have described Dublin Airport as the Black Hole of Calcutta are equally outspoken about their reluctance to pay for any improvement in facilities. What is the commissioner's general view of efficiency levels at the airport?

Without giving figures, to what extent is the commission self-financing through charges? Does it rely on an Exchequer subsidy or funding?

Mr. Prasifka

We receive no Exchequer funding and are entirely funded by the industry. The travel trade funds us through the licence fee which we use to pay for our activities in regulating airlines. A component of airport charges is, in effect, the regulatory cost. Users of airports pay for this as the people who pay airport charges. All of our activities must be independent and, as such, self-funded.

Senator Dooley asked what changes should be made in the context of the travel trade regime and wondered whether more draconian sanctions were necessary. Existing legislation provides penalties for trading without a licence and includes a maximum sentence of five years imprisonment or a fine of up to €126,000. We took a case against an operator who was trading without a licence, the result of which was the imposition on the operator of a €1,000 fine, while we received €500 in costs. The solution does not lie in increasing the maximum level of fine.

What I had in mind was that the commission would be given the powers to prevent an aircraft taking off or to prevent an airline, whether through the courts or so on, from advertising its services. I know this is a difficult issue, given that we are dealing with operators and not physical ownership of an aircraft.

Mr. Prasifka

We have been asked if we can prevent an aircraft owned by someone who does not have a licence from trading. We cannot stop anything; we can only deal with the matter through the judicial process. We felt we had a good case in the example given because the operator was trading without a licence. However, the operator received a fine of only €1,000. The question then arises as to whether the judge should ground an aeroplane, thereby denying 200 or 300 people, many of whom may be entirely innocent, their holidays. We must exercise our prosecutorial discretion in such matters. Based on our experience to date, we do not believe we would be successful in such cases. Seeking injunctive relief is costly. We do not believe our depth of commitment to the licensing regime merits that type of extraordinary activity.

Without criticising the Judiciary, is Mr. Prasifka suggesting that the Commission for Aviation Regulation could do with more support in terms of discharging its brief?

Mr. Prasifka

No. I will clarify the matter. I do not mean to criticise the Judiciary. We present our cases to the courts. It is then up to them to form their own judgment as regards an appropriate fine. We accept that the courts have discretion in such matters and have their own role to play. However, we must adjust our behaviour based on the feedback we get from them. At the end of the day we accept the judgment, live with it and move on.

Mr. Prasifka seems to be suggesting that is the position, given the powers of his office under the legislation as enacted and the cases taken. Has consideration been given to examining other measures? I take Mr. Prasifka's point about not being in a position to ground an aircraft with people on board. Has consideration been given to introducing another package of measures — in light of the legislation and the decisions made by the courts — that would make it obligatory for operators to accept that possession of a licence is an integral part of their operation and that, as such, they cannot be allowed to play ducks and drakes with the commission? As things stand, operators appear to be under the false impression that they can operate without renewing their licences. Can we, as legislators, assist by making particular recommendations to Government on the commission's behalf?

Mr. Prasifka

I stated earlier that we have attempted to be proactive in terms of illegal trading operations. We have contacted educators and religious leaders to inform them of their responsibilities. We have also informed various licence holders, be they airline licensers or ground handlers, of their responsibilities under the legislation not to deal with operators who do not possess a licence. We are trying to be proactive. In addition, we have used our website to identify those individuals trading without licences and have issued press releases in that regard. We have attempted to raise the profile in respect of illegal trading.

Before moving away from the issue of the €1,000 fine, perhaps Mr. Prasifka would tell us what was the turnover of the operator involved while unlicensed. I am trying to put the matter in context.

Mr. Prasifka

It is difficult to answer that question, particularly as the issue was one of illegal trading and did not relate to an operator that furnished us with regular accounts. We do know the entity had organised several trips carrying several hundred people.

Can Mr. Prasifka give the committee a ballpark figure?

Mr. Prasifka

I would not wish to misinform the committee but we know that a handful of trips were involved, each of which included 100 to 150 people. In that context, the turnover was far in excess of the €1,000 fine imposed. It is difficult for us to quantify the number involved.

I appreciate that.

Mr. Prasifka

The next question related to the future role of the commission in terms of deregulation. I assume that refers to the separation of Dublin, Cork and Shannon airports. The State Airports Act 2004 removed Cork and Shannon airports from our regulatory remit. In effect, we no longer price cap those entities. We supported the decision made in that regard. Cork and Shannon airports came within the price caps in 2001. We put in place price caps at the three airports using the same methodology and taking account of efficiency costs going forward. Dublin Airport has been consistently price capped at the highest level, which is entirely appropriate. From the time it was introduced, Cork and Shannon airports were priced significantly below the price cap. This indicates to me that there was no need for it and hence they have been removed from our remit.

The question then going forward, once Cork and Shannon airports are vested separately, is what is the role for the commission in terms of price regulation of the airports. The simple answer is that it is an issue we will have to carefully consider. I would not wish to pre-judge this. The essential question we will have to ask is whether Cork and Shannon airports provide effective competition for Dublin Airport. We have begun to look at this issue in a number of different contexts. For example, transport economists speak of catchment areas of airports and, in that context, draw circles around Dublin, Shannon and Cork airports representing one, two or three hours driving time. Often a circle drawn around Dublin indicates three hours of driving time, putting one approximately one hundred metres from the airport. However, I will leave that matter aside for the moment.

Not with transport.

Mr. Prasifka

No. The argument that the catchment area of Dublin is large remains strong. Under traditional methods of market definition used by competition policy economists, a firm defined as having market power is one that is able to impose a small but significant non-transitory price increase of the order of 5% or 10%. Would a person living in the Dublin area be willing to drive to Cork or Shannon airports to save 5% on the cost of their ticket? Obviously, there are some people for whom that applies, namely, those equidistant between the two airports. However, given the vast majority of people in the Dublin catchment area, it is unclear whether competition from Cork and Shannon airports, particularly in terms of their mix of routes and services, would provide effective competition. I do not wish to foreclose on that argument rather, it is an issue we will have to consider carefully and in a serious way following restructuring. I would be the first to suggest that the Commission for Aviation Regulation must be open to a change in its role if there is a change in market circumstances.

Deputy Glennon asked about the office's capacity to prosecute and reflected on the need for changes in the legislation. The legal process is cumbersome. I am not sure that is amenable to legislative change. In other spheres we have seen the introduction of administrative fines, including that of the financial regulator. This always raises a constitutional question because under the Constitution it is the courts which impose fines. However, this matter has been examined by others in a number of contexts and there is no particular reason the licensing regime for the travel industry should not form part of the same discussion. There is a general constitutional bar on any body other than the courts administering fines and penalties. We will have to face up to this issue.

On the question of whether we would reconsider the annual licensing fee of €300, such consideration falls within our remit and we have the ability to increase the fee. We are in the process of considering this. To the extent that we increase licence fees or any other levies on the industry, we do so reluctantly because we take very seriously our remit to act in a cost-effective manner. To increase the licence fee we would have to form the view that doing so was essential for us to carry out our statutory functions. If we were to increase it to provide for more vigorous enforcement, a decision would have to be made to set aside a portion of that fee and ensure it was used very much for that purpose. We have the power to increase the licence fee and will consider this, but any increase will be made only if we believe it is essential to carrying out our statutory duties.

The next point referred to the passenger survey that indicated passengers were willing to pay €3 more for better services at Dublin Airport. However, it should be taken into account that the survey was conducted by the Dublin Airport Authority, not by the Commission for Aviation Regulation. We have considered carefully the setting of charges in respect of the increased quality of service. This is one of the reasons we have provided for additional capital expenditure regarding resources at Dublin Airport during the period of the determination. We have provided for a figure of €80 million to €85 million per year in the charges to meet the needs of future passengers. We did not see anything magical in a €3 charge but considered very seriously and comprehensively the additional investment required. We have carried out our own capacity analysis at the airport and determined independently that significantly increased capacity is required. We are fully prepared to fund, through airport charges, the necessary financial resources to pay for this. We carried out a bottom-up analysis rather than an analysis based on passenger surveys. We take very seriously the contribution of the Dublin Airport Authority which used the latter approach, but we do not regard it as determinative of our role in assessing the actual charges.

Deputy Glennon asked about security costs. He was absolutely correct to state increased security costs are a worldwide phenomenon and Dublin Airport is no exception. I was asked to state the increase in airport charges as a result of increased security charges. It is in the order of 10%, a sizeable percentage. The bulk of the increased costs associated with operating the airport is associated with increased security costs.

Is there anything unusual at Dublin Airport that would distinguish it from other airports?

Mr. Prasifka

Absolutely not.

The final question was related to our general view of the efficiency of Dublin Airport. We have tried to do our job in a serious, measured way. In our reports we have tried to avoid hyperbole. We considered the issue of efficiency through two lenses. This involved benchmarking the operational efficiency of Dublin Airport, after which we asked consultants to carry out a bottom-up efficiency study. The benchmarking review indicated that Dublin Airport certainly compared favourably in terms of operational efficiency to the average large-sized European peer group airport, but it also showed that the airport had some room for operational improvements when compared with the best in its class.

Benchmarking as a model has consumed regulators and those interested in aviation policy. Everyone says that in any benchmark review one is comparing apples with oranges. Everyone accepts the benchmarks that look good no matter what they indicate, but says benchmarking is inherently unreliable if one does not like the result. In setting airport charges we simply used benchmarking as an overall tool to inform us, but we were not prepared to translate the results directly into airport charges. Rather, we conducted a bottom-up efficiency survey at Dublin Airport which was carried out by Booz Allen Hamilton which has a great deal of international experience. In its comprehensive analysis of the financial and business model of the airport it found that a small increment of additional efficiency was possible, largely achievable through a reduction in the rate of growth of personnel in certain areas. The result is that we have operational efficiency projections in excess of those of the Dublin Airport Authority which are relatively modest.

Whose projections are relatively modest?

Mr. Prasifka

Ours are relatively modest compared to those of the Dublin Airport Authority. This indicates to us that there is not a huge efficiency gap at Dublin Airport. One would not expect to find this in a firm whose market has been growing so rapidly. It has achieved passenger growth rates in excess of 5% per year for the past ten years. One would almost expect to see greater efficiencies in a static market. However, a growing market with greater demands placed thereon represents a different environment. Without using hyperbole, we found in our operational efficiency assessments that we could set modest targets above those the Dublin Airport Authority believed it could achieve.

Continuing with that analysis, we found that over the course of the regulatory period to date Dublin Airport had achieved efficiency improvements in many areas. In the past four years the number in security at the airport has increased, but the numbers in many other personnel areas have decreased. The total number of staff has been increasing, but this hides the fact that there are additional demands being placed on the airport which has achieved significant efficiencies in other areas.

Would Mr. Prasifka describe it as a black hole?

Mr. Prasifka

I would never describe any body as a black hole.

Particularly Dublin Airport.

I asked the commissioner when he expected to have all the information on the proposed development at Dublin Airport and when he expected to have time to consider it. I take it he will not be making a decision on a review of his determination on charges until the business plan for each of the airports has been presented to him.

With regard to an earlier point, while the potential for competition between the three airports is limited, does the commissioner take into consideration the question of access to them? For example, people in Galway get on an air coach and travel to Dublin Airport whereas the obvious place to go is Shannon Airport. Has the commissioner a view on the lack of rail access to Shannon Airport?

Mr. Prasifka

The first question concerned the timing of our review and whether we would need to wait for a restructuring of Dublin, Cork and Shannon Airports to take place. The simple answer is no. We can conduct a review at any time we form a view that there are substantial grounds for doing so. The restructuring of Dublin, Cork and Shannon Airports is contemplated and enabled by the State Airports Act, but as it is not required, it is possible a restructuring will never happen. However, we can conduct a review whenever we believe there are substantial grounds for doing so.

In our most recent determination we stated we wanted to examine more closely the capital expenditure programme as it evolved. Following that review, if we come to a view that there are substantial grounds for reviewing the determination, we can do this. At that point we must make a judgment whether to initiate a review of the programme or to wait for a restructuring to take place. If we believe restructuring is imminent, it would not make sense for us to conduct two reviews. We might as well conduct one and roll the capital expenditure review into the restructuring review. It is simply a matter of judgement on our part. Obviously, we do not want to conduct more reviews than is necessary, but the simple answer to the Deputy's question is that we can conduct a review in advance of restructuring. We have highlighted that the capital expenditure programme may be one area where it would be appropriate for us to do this.

The next question concerned competition between the airports and whether we considered access issues. The simple answer is that we do consider such issues. In considering the definition of the relevant markets for airports, access is critical. Most aviation economists consider the issue of potential competition by examining the catchment areas of the respective airports and the travel time for potential competition, and then deeming whether that is significant enough to influence the behaviour of the airports. As we consider issues of competition, road access and public transport are important factors that must be considered in determining whether there is real competition which can allow us to take a different regulatory approach.

We will conclude on that note. I think I speak for all members when I say if all delegates before the committee answered all questions as clearly as Mr. Prasifka, it would make the committee's job much easier. I thank Mr. Prasifka and his representatives for attending.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.05 p.m. sine die.

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