JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 10 Sep 2008

Transport 21: Discussion with Dublin Chamber of Commerce.

Vice Chairman

The representatives are very welcome. As required, I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege, but this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The next item is a discussion with Mr. Peter Brennan, chairman of the Dublin Chamber of Commerce. I welcome Mr. Brennan and his colleagues, Ms Gina Quin, chief executive officer, Mr. Aebhric McGivney, policy director, and Ms Catherine McCabe, executive officer. Mr. Brennan has provided a detailed document which is very well produced. He might be good enough to give us a synopsis of what is in it rather than reading it word for word. We will then discuss it.

Mr. Peter Brennan

I thank the Chairman. I had not intended to read the document as I have about five minutes, so I will hit the salient points. Dublin Chamber of Commerce represents 1,400 members of the business community in and around the city. It is fair to say that the package of proposals including the metro north and associated projects — the city centre Luas and the DART from the Docklands to Heuston — is one of the biggest issues facing the business community in terms of both potential disruption and potential benefits. We have given serious thought to the presentation we have put together; it has been widely distributed and many comments have been incorporated. It is a well thought out commentary about where we are.

Essentially, we support Transport 21 unreservedly. We see it as the first phase of a comprehensive public transport plan for the Dublin region. We do not see it as a one-off. The Dublin region is due to enlarge, in terms of population, by about 500,000 by 2020. What is proposed now will perhaps sort us out by 2020, but as the population expands we will probably need far more public infrastructure than these three projects.

We are keen not only to promote business interests, but also to point out that shoppers must be accommodated when the construction takes place. The shopping spend by people who drive into the city centre is four times greater than by those who travel in by bus or Luas. Therefore, the shopper experience in the city during construction is important. We understand that this Friday an important milestone will be reached — the Railway Procurement Agency is due to produce a railway application order for the metro north, which is part of the planning process. We will be responding in substantial detail to that order.

We are surprised, to say the least, that we are being given the minimum time required under the Act — six weeks — to comment on the biggest infrastructural project in the State, never mind in the city. A €4 billion spend on 17 stations across the city warrants a bit more than six weeks of contemplation. The first message we have is that the RPA should be as generous as possible in terms of giving people and organisations such as ourselves time to make substantial submissions on this railway order.

We support, unreservedly, the metro north, the interconnector and the BX line. These are long overdue and Dubliners have been suffering in terms of their traffic commutes. For a project as complicated as this we have several views, and I will summarise them briefly. There were some suggestions in the newspapers today that there might be budgetary difficulties with metro north. The Dublin Chamber of Commerce's view is that there should be no cutbacks, delays or scaling back of metro north. One of the main reasons is that private investors, through a PPP, will be spending most of the money on metro north. The Exchequer contribution, in the first year or two of the project, is very small. I understand it could be as small as €100 million, mainly for enabling works. There is no justification for delaying this critical transport project for the city.

There are two other related projects, the BX line in the city centre which will link St. Stephen's Green to O'Connell Street and then out to Broadstone and Grangegorman, and, more importantly, a DART or interconnector from the Docklands Station to Heuston Station. They should all be built at or around the same time. Unfortunately Irish Rail has a large project team working on its particular project, but it could be up to a year or two behind the Railway Procurement Agency. We believe they need to synchronise the start time of these projects. We cannot have a situation where there are 18 months of enabling works to divert utilities such as water and electricity on the 17 stations. Following this there are four years of construction of the stations themselves, and when they are finished there are another two years of construction of the BX line going through the city centre. At approximately the same time there are five DART stations being built from the Docklands Station to Heuston Station. We believe it is possible to do all of this construction in a much tighter timeframe. That is one of our key messages. We wish to have a tight, co-ordinated construction period. If metro north has to be slightly delayed to enable Irish Rail to catch up, we believe that should happen. The package should go ahead within five years, and not eight years as is currently the case.

We are not challenging or querying where the stations should be. There are 22 stations; we are leaving it up to the RPA. It has the wisdom and has consulted widely on this issue. We have no reservations about where the stations should be located or their size. There are specific issues which have been communicated to us about some detail which is critical and we will communicate this to the RPA as part of our submission.

Access to businesses is fundamental to this proposition. The RPA has consulted widely with many businesses near the stations which will be affected. However, we do not have, and will not have for some time, a detailed traffic management plan for the city in the period up to and including construction. That is one of the major flaws of the planning application. We are going into a planning situation where we do not have a detailed plan of action regarding what will happen with traffic near these stations. Businesses in O'Connell Street, St. Stephen's Green, Parnell Square or further out want to know what exactly is going to happen. Many businesses in the Dublin Chamber of Commerce that criss-cross the city regularly also want to know, in some detail, what to expect. We expect conditions will be attached to the railway order and that will be part of what we will say.

I want to mention future-proofing. There are certain points we feel strongly about. The current plan to build a DART tunnel from Docklands Station to Heuston Station is for the DART only. We believe Irish Rail should be more ambitious and plan to put urban or intercity trains into that tunnel. It should future-proof the design of the tunnel so it is not confined to DART trains. This will enable people from, for example, Drogheda, to get into Heuston Station and out to Maynooth or Kildare in 45 minutes on a fast, electric train. With renewable wind energy coming into the grid in that period it is an affordable and environmentally friendly solution. Irish Rail should look at the impact of the emissions of its fleet, which is a critical issue for us.

We welcome the setting up of the Dublin Transport Authority with which we wish to engage. We are disappointed it has not been set up already but we understand if the Estimates go in the right direction it will be set up on 1 January.

We also have very strong support for providing services into the city centre. This pre-construction and post-construction period will not happen unless Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann, and the private operators significantly enhance their fleets and traffic management and the positioning of buses, particularly in the city centre streets, is organised so that buses can get through the city as quickly as possible. I may not have done justice to the full statement but I have given the key points. With Ms Gina Quinn and the team I will be happy to take some questions from the committee.

Vice Chairman

Mr. Brennan's submission made much good sense, so far as I am concerned.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I am sorry but I am only reading the submission now. I am happy with some parts but not with others. If metro is delayed for a short time, for how long will it be delayed?

Mr. Peter Brennan

It could be five to six months. I do not think it will make any difference to the end period of construction because we understand that the major works can take place and the stations can be built well within four years. Irish Rail needs to rapidly accelerate the development of the Dart interconnector tunnel. It needs to have resources poured into that project to get it fast-tracked to a stage where it can go into planning within six months. If that happens the two projects will be more or less synchronised. At the moment that degree of urgency is not there in Irish Rail for the two projects to be built at or around the same time.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I appreciate Deputy Kennedy is as concerned about metro north as I am because we both live in the area and I am not trying to score political points. The key issue is that the Government has said it is reviewing the cost of all Transport 21 projects and picking some out for delay, some that may not go ahead and some that may proceed immediately. I would be concerned, notwithstanding the fact that Mr. Brennan has mentioned a possible delay of six months, there is the psychological issue that if it stands back from the project at all, it may not proceed as we would wish. The benefits of metro north are so important that there should be no delay.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

May I interrupt because I had the same point written down? As one who advocated the metro for a long time and fought to get it from Dublin Airport to Lissenhall, north of Swords, we should not encourage anyone to think negatively. We need to be positive about it because it has huge economic benefits apart from the fact that it will take 30 million people from south Louth, Meath and Dublin north, into the city. I would be more concerned with pushing Irish Rail to fast-track the project. If there are issues, to which Mr. Brennan has alluded, I would be more concerned to push Iarnród Éireann to speed up its plans rather than tell the metro people to do so. In fairness to the RPA, it has met every schedule. From the time metro was announced, it indicated the different processes from its public consultation meetings to the railway order, which it is issuing on 17 September. It has met every schedule. It would be detrimental for us, as a committee, to ask it to slow down on the basis that Iarnród Éireann needs a bit of catch-up. So far as I am concerned, metro north needs to be in place at the earliest possible date. If that means other agencies having to speed up their work and their planning, etc., so be it.

I compliment the delegation on its presentation. I had a quick read of it. It contains some excellent points as well as the minor negative point of slowing down for six months. If it slows down for six months, it may slow down for 12 months. As far as I am concerned every month is vital.

Mr. Peter Brennan

We do not wish to be negative about metro north. We have been pushing the Government to have it brought forward as quickly as possible and we welcome the fact that it goes into planning on Friday. The key message is that Irish Rail must catch up extremely rapidly. We are simply saying the same as the members of the committee. Irish Rail's project is even more exciting in a way than metro north because it will interlink the urban and inter-urban rail network. We are anxious to be positive but, on the other hand, if we do not convey our message and matters are allowed to drift, we are faced with an eight year construction period which would not be great for Dublin's city centre, to say the least. We are trying to be clear in our message. We are positive about metro north but if there is a delay in the inter-connector project, the consequences for city centre and cross-city commerce will be negative. We do not want that to happen. We are encouraging the Government and the agencies to bring forward the planning and other requirements at the earliest opportunity.

Ms Gina Quin

Our focus is to ensure that this project which will bring massive economic benefit to the Dublin region goes ahead as quickly as possible and is executed as efficiently as possible. We do not wish to see the construction period extended to an eight year project; it should be delivered in five years. Effectively, the metro and the inter-connector will share much of the underground space, in the vertical as it were, as this project proceeds. The Government, business and citizens face an enormous challenge in managing the impact of this project in the city. It is not a small construction exercise. We must manage it in a tight framework and we must have the tools to make management of the disruption as painless as possible. Undoubtedly, however, it will be painful.

We must have the communication tools and we must know what is happening with the construction. We must be confident that it will be delivered on time, that the most efficient methods of construction are being deployed, that the bus service will be maximised to continue to bring people into an economically vibrant city centre and that some of the technological advances, in terms of integrated ticketing, real-time passenger information and so forth, are brought forward to make it easier to cope with what will be a huge construction period, the biggest the State has ever experienced.

Vice Chairman

The committee has discussed at length the issue of the number of buses with other groups over the past six months. It is not strictly on today's agenda but has the chamber a view on what should be done, other than make more buses available? Have you views on whether cars should be banned from the city centre or other such views?

Mr. Peter Brennan

We have talked to our members and we are aware that a capacity study on the Dublin bus network is due to be completed soon for the Minister for Transport. We will urge him to take decisions on that immediately. Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann and the private bus operators must have a clear regulatory system so when they make an investment in buses, it will be done within a certain framework. Buses will be required because cars will be unable to get into large parts of the city centre during construction. From next year the space around College Green will be pedestrianised and only accessible to public transport. Approximately 1,800 cars travel around College Green per day and within eight or nine months they will no longer be able to do so. The city centre will become difficult for car transport during construction, except for getting into car parks. The pressure will be on the bus system to get people into the city for shopping. There are also 200,000 people working in the city centre.

Vice Chairman

Have the car parks been put in place for that? Six or nine months is not a long period of time.

Mr. Peter Brennan

I understand that car park capacity in the city centre is adequate at present. That is not the issue. The car parking companies are talking to the RPA to ensure that everybody can get into their car park during construction. That is one of the RPA's priorities. As people find it more difficult to drive to work, they will need a bus. As part of the Minister's study on bus capacity, we made it very clear where the new bus routes should be and where the capacity may be redeployed. There is also the issue of competition in the bus area. All these decisions need to take place before one begins to build metro stations.

A six-storey underground stop will be built in the middle of O'Connell Street. Buses will not be able to go up and down O'Connell Street the way they do if there is only one lane of traffic available and cars certainly will not be able to go down O'Connell Street. One really needs maximum bus transport during the construction period.

Obviously, Dublin Bus cannot make decisions until it knows what the Minister wants from it and until he has decided on the capacity and spread of its routes. Urgent decisions need to be taken by the Minister to help Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann and the private operators to invest in a much larger fleet. Where it is deployed is for the bus operators. We are not expert enough but we know that to get people into town, we will need many more buses than the 1,000 or so currently available.

Vice Chairman

On the funding of the metro and the other aspects of it, Mr. Brennan seemed to suggest that the private sector will become deeply involved in those projects.

Mr. Peter Brennan

It is our understanding that the metro is a public private partnership which means, effectively, that it is private investment. The majority of the costs will be met by the private sector. That is one of the key reasons the Minister for Finance should not really look at metro north at all in terms of the budgetary cutbacks because the Exchequer contribution to the capital spend will be really small. As I said, it could be as low as €100 million in year two, which is three years out.

Vice Chairman

As Mr. Brennan will be well aware, those costs could——

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

The ultimate cost to the taxpayer will be billions.

Mr. Peter Brennan

It will not be if it is a public private partnership. The operating contract will be separate. As I understand, much of the build contract will be private investment. Although it needs to be confirmed, I imagine the DART interconnector station may also be built on a PPP basis.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

We are talking in a vacuum because no costing has been put before us. That is the problem. People have told me it could be €7 billion but I hope it is much less. One of the problems is that the test on the metro which is being done is on value for money. We do not know what is going on because no figures have been put into the public domain. I understand why they have not been, that is, because the Government is playing one off against the other.

It would be useful if an independent authority, whether the Comptroller and Auditor General or otherwise, looked at the books and stated whether he or she believes the taxpayer is paying a reasonable sum of money. The problem is that we do not know how much it will cost.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

That would be the one way to delay this. We should have built the metro ten years ago. We would probably have built it for a lot less than what it will cost now. We should recognise that with the downturn in the construction sector, we will get better value for money next spring when the four tenders come in than we would have got 18 months ago. In 20 years' or 50 years' time, the cost of the metro will be seen as a pittance.

The metro systems in every modern city, whether London, Paris, Copenhagen or otherwise, were built a long time ago at a pittance in the context of their economic value to the community in 2008 terms. Whatever the cost of the metro in 2009, it will be seen as a pittance in 2029 or 2059.

I am not saying one should not have concerns about getting value for money. Committees of the Houses will go through the process to ensure value for money. I do not agree with Deputy O'Dowd's suggestion to bring in the Comptroller and Auditor General at this time. That would ensure the metro will never be built and I mean no disrespect to the Comptroller and Auditor General and his office. We need to make positive decisions to build at a time when it will be cost-effective because of the economic downturn.

Mr. Peter Brennan

My understanding of the Department of Finance's capital appraisal guidelines for PPPs is that when tender bids come in, an assessment will be made on the basis of the spread of costs, and that the Department and, ultimately, the Government will take the decision. They will determine what is called an affordability cap, in other words, that the project will have to be built within the parameters of a certain budget. They have a good idea of what the cap is but it has not been communicated.

Metro north on its own will generate a certain positive benefit. If one adds the Luas line, the benefit becomes bigger. If one takes the interconnector, the metro and the Luas as a package, it will solve once and for all the public transport problem in this city. It is the package that needs to be looked at. Whereas we are focusing primarily on metro north, our message today is that Irish Rail's contribution is enormous and that one should look at the entire package of the three proposals.

Ms Gina Quin

It is a question of taking the two factors together — the long-term return on the 50-year investment for the city and the economic impact of not making such an investment. We estimate that there are congestion costs of at least €1 billion a year to the city. The only solution, as proved the world over, is the provision of mass public transport services. We must address this issue.

Vice Chairman

Does Mr. Brennan believe the big dig, irrespective of how difficult it will be, is possible and that one should get on with the job?

Mr. Peter Brennan

Absolutely. The big dig should start as quickly as is feasible and be done in as short a period as possible.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

On the cost involved, it should be borne in mind that Fingal County Council has produced an economic plan. We agreed today to listen to it. The net take for Fingal County Council in extending from the airport to Swords will be of the order of €450 million, ignoring the knock-on effect of construction work and the obvious economic benefits once the metro system is in place.

Mr. Peter Brennan

The project is a win-win for everyone — the construction industry, the business community in Dublin and commuters. It will also have a positive impact on emissions. It will seriously reduce the carbon emissions from the transport sector which is another problem.

Vice Chairman

We thank all the delegates for coming. I suggest, because of the importance of this matter, we invite them again when the project has proceeded a little further. Many more of our members will want to talk to them in a couple of months' time. They might bear this in mind.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

There is one other point I meant to make. Dublin City Council is responsible for traffic management. As I understand it, it is currently working on a plan for the big dig. Has Mr. Brennan met its officials?

Mr. Peter Brennan

We have; we meet on a regular basis. We are receiving great co-operation from Dublin City Council and the RPA, but the level of detail available on traffic management is not what we would expect three days before a major planning application is to be submitted. The details in respect of site-specific locations will not be available for another two or three months. While we are disappointed, we will work constructively through these issues with Dublin City Council and the Dublin Transportation Office to find site-specific solutions. While the detail is not available, we know they are working hard on the issue and our members want to work with them. We are receiving the best possible co-operation from Dublin City Council.

Vice Chairman

I thank Mr. Brennan.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.40 p.m. until 3.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 24 September 2008.