JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 3 Dec 2008

Transport Issues: Discussion with Minister for Transport.

Chairman

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey; the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Noel Ahern, and their departmental officials, Mr. Andy Cullen, Mr. John Weafer and Mr. Maurice Tracey. The first issue they will address is the committee's report, Developing an Efficient Bus Network for Dublin — Short Term Action Plan. I propose to deal with that matter before discussing Transport 21 related issues. I ask the Minister to make a short presentation on the report.

Minister for Transport (Deputy Noel Dempsey)

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for inviting us to discuss a number of important issues affecting the transport sector. The first issue identified by the committee concerning the taxi sector has been addressed.

I will respond to the committee's action plan for developing an efficient bus network in Dublin. I welcome the general thrust of its report. We are all agreed that we want to see more people using public transport in Dublin and that buses have a vital role to play for the foreseeable future. We also want bus transport to be more efficient, effective and appealing to the travelling public. This places a particular responsibility on bus service operators and local authorities.

In publishing its report the committee identified the following three aspects as critical: expansion of quality bus corridors; full utilisation of the existing bus fleet, and the significant role an improved service can play in changing commuter attitudes and helping to attract people to switch from private cars to buses. We are in agreement on each of these. As the committee will be aware, my Department is funding the development of the quality bus network in the greater Dublin area through the traffic management grants scheme administered by the DTO. Despite the current difficult economic circumstances, I propose to increase the allocation for traffic management grants in 2009. A work programme of network improvement and expansion is in place and runs from 2008 to 2011. I will be happy to deal with these issues in more detail in our discussion.

Chapter 7 of the report identifies a range of measures to encourage switching from cars to public transport and other sustainable modes. At previous meetings with the committee I referred to the issue of sustainable travel and transport and argued that current travel trends in Ireland were unsustainable. We aim to publish the sustainable travel and transport action plan later this year and I hope to bring proposals in this regard to the Government in the near future.

With regard to the bus fleet, significant Exchequer funding has been provided for Dublin Bus in recent years to meet the cost of replacement and additional buses. As a consequence, the fleet has grown from 1,039 buses in 2000 to 1,182 today. I will consider the case for funding the acquisition of further buses when the cost and efficiency review of Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann is complete. The review is being carried out by a consortium led by Deloitte and I expect to receive its report later this month.

Chairman

I must interrupt the Minister because a vote has been called in the Dáil Chamber. We will ask him to resume his contribution as soon as we return.

Sitting suspended at 4.35 p.m. and resumed at 4.55 p.m.

Chairman

We shall resume. I interrupted the Minister in the midst of his speech, so we will allow him to continue.

Deputy Noel Dempsey

I was going to refer to a few of the good recommendations in the Minister's report. We are looking at revising the legislation to expedite the QBCs in the forthcoming public transport regulation Bill. We are looking at doing them in a different way and leaving a number of options open as to how it might be done. The Department and I support the use of the Dublin Port tunnel by any bus operator, whether Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann or any private operator, as means of obtaining faster journey times for commuters. We are examining a number of applications for additional services that will also use the tunnel. The street vending machines for ticketing are a good idea and we will follow up with Dublin Bus on it.

Chairman

I thank the Minister for his response and his officials for the help and support they gave the committee, particularly to me, while we were reading ourselves into this issue. We decided on a short-term action plan of two years to try to give an impetus with all-party support to the Minister and his Department to expedite a number of initiatives that are critical if we are to make a successful transition from the car to the bus. In the introduction to the report we used the exact same language as was used in a DTO report two-year action plan ten years ago, in 1998. That speaks for itself. The fact that we were able to use the exact same language in our introduction as was used in a similar report ten years ago shows not much has happened.

I very much welcome the Minister's decision to examine changing the legislation to enable him to expedite the provision of quality bus corridors. That is a significant decision because in various parts of Dublin, Limerick and other places we have constant objections. It is interesting that when the bus lanes are provided there is generally a welcome for the initiative. We need action and investment. If we can make buses move, as recently proven in the Malahide QBC, people will use them.

We have put in our report that we must move forward with the redirection of traffic in the city centre. Since the publication of the report I have examined similar cities to Dublin. They have cleared city centres of unnecessary traffic and the result has been a major increase in the use of public transport. Hard decisions must be taken on that. It is an issue for Dublin City Council but there is all-party support here for the proposals in the report on the development of the bus gate of Trinity College as quickly as possible.

The utilisation of buses and the need for an increase of 350 extra buses to be provided by a direct award sub-contract is a key part of our proposal. It is clear that the utilisation of buses in Dublin Bus is not satisfactory. If people are prepared to load onto the Luas at off-peak times, mid-morning and mid-afternoon, there is no reason they will not load onto an efficient, high-frequency bus service. I do not take the case made by Dublin Bus that it must put on many buses at peak time which are loss-making because they cannot run those buses off-peak. I do not accept that argument. There is a need for extra buses and we have given the best formula, a direct award sub-contract. That means the private sector can provide the buses and drivers into the Dublin Bus network on a contract basis. We have had fairly good agreement from the unions and Dublin Bus management on that issue. It can and should be implemented quickly.

On the allied issue of utilisation of buses and the need to market the bus, there is a serious need for a change of mind set. We all need to be prepared to change our mind sets and some of the issues on the budget must be welcomed. When I take the train to Dublin, run by Iarnród Éireann under the banner of CIE, I would expect a small notice on the window telling me I can take a Dublin Bus when I get there. It would not be asking too much for Bus Éireann to put up a notice saying when one gets to Dublin one can use Dublin Bus and vice versa. Marketing of bus services in Dublin is very poor. No incentive is given. We have heard from Dublin Bus that it does marketing programmes. It goes to certain areas, especially newly serviced areas, and gives out free tickets, etc.

We will not get a significant increase in the number of people using the bus until we can get the proper message out on the advantage of taking the modal switch. I told the story a number of times that since I started taking the train, I automatically used a taxi after getting off the train until one day I suggested that Deputy Connaughton and I share a taxi. He asked why we should go in a taxi and I asked him how else we would travel. He told me the No. 92 bus outside the station would take us up to Kildare Street. I have not come from Heuston Station using any other method since. The bus travels up the quality bus corridor on the north quays.

The most relevant point I will make is that there is no concept among the vast majority of the population that travelling by bus, especially in Dublin city, is the best way to travel.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Is there a problem with the Ministers?

Chairman

The Deputy will be called in time.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

The Chairman, when he was a Minister of State, and the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, had cars to ferry them around. The former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, knew nothing about public transport and had not been on a bus for 25 years.

Chairman

I shall call the Deputy to have his turn. I made my final point. The best subsidy to be given to Dublin Bus is to have it market the services properly. It has excellent buses and drivers, who are great ambassadors, and the ability of the bus to move is improving. The bus can solve the congestion and traffic problems in Dublin quickly, efficiently and with cost-effectiveness. The purpose of this report is to give the Minister one extra piece of armour and to deliver on the issue.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I thank the Minister. I agree with the Chairman's comment that the buses are the best way to deal with the issue, particularly in the interim until we have the metro. There will be questions on that later.

We put a number of written questions to the Minister yesterday and I am going through the replies. One of the replies deals with the key question of how to get more buses on the streets of Dublin as quickly as possible. In his reply, the Minister states that Dublin Bus can enter into discussions and arrangements with private enterprise or bus contractors to provide those buses. I put it to Mr. Joe Meagher of Dublin Bus recently that he should be talking to the private sector, as it is a matter of deep concern to everybody that private bus contractors, like Circle Line, are out of business for whatever reason, with their buses idle and not being used by Dublin Bus. Such services should be available to the public.

It is critical that we use this committee, if we can get a consensus, to encourage or even insist that Dublin Bus look at the provisions by private sector buses for services into the city immediately. Such services have the correct type of double decker bus with all the essential and necessary ingredients for public transport support. It is critical this comes about. When I spoke to representatives of Dublin Bus, it was their opinion that this would be a matter for the DTA when it was set up. That is not a good enough answer, so we must get stuck into the issue immediately.

The Minister undertook at our last Question Time to give me a list of the PSO routes which Dublin Bus has at its disposal. He gave a reply yesterday but it does not contain the information I sought. With the massive subsidy being given to Dublin Bus, we do not know what routes are profitable and which are PSO. It is very important that taxpayers' money is seen to be available and used in the most transparent, accountable and public way. I am not satisfied that the Minister was unable to get that information, which has been promised on a number of occasions. It is time members of the public knew exactly what Dublin Bus is up to.

I do not disagree with the Chairman's comments that it has a very professional and committed staff. However, there is no transparency on how it is spending our money and the private sector would like to compete fairly equitably for pricing on routes. This is not to have direct competition on a specific route but rather to have companies to look to provide bus routes, with no PSO, on a particular route cheaper than Dublin Bus, which has a PSO. In order to test the argument we must have all the facts. I insist that the Minister provide the information, although the Department was clearly unable to provide him with it yesterday. Will it provide it for the Minister tomorrow? We must have that information.

The end point of all this debate is to have choice for the consumer, with a bus service that is frequent and on time. The consumer does not care what colour the bus is as long as it is available. It is clear from complaints made to the Department and investigated by its officers that Dublin Bus in a number of cases, as outlined in one letter, was abusing its dominant position in the market. That is not good enough, particularly when the taxpayers' money is being used.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I ask Deputy O'Dowd to cite the letter in question.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I do not have the physical letter with me but I am sure the Department will be able to confirm it because representatives gave it to me. The comment was written in one of their letters and related to the complaints received about unfair competition.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Does the Deputy even have the date of the letter?

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I have no problem getting it for the Deputy, although it may not be today because it is in my office. I would have to leave the meeting to get it. If my researchers are listening to the proceedings they will come down with it. I am sure the Department would confirm that it has found, on a number of occasions, that Dublin Bus was operating outside its commitment and timetable and has excessive buses on routes complained about.

The first letter written by the Department regarding complaints indicated that when Morton's started up and got its licence, the place was flooded with bus inspectors from Dublin Bus and that on the road there were buses before and behind them. Dublin Bus vehicles were at the bus stops as well, so they could not get in or out.

That is the reality of the complaints made and the Department has affirmed in a number of cases the veracity of some of the complainants. At our last Question Time, the Minister indicated he had told Dublin Bus that a subsidy was being withdrawn on a particular route. We should get real in this debate and have all the facts. Until we do, the allegation is that some of the principles applied by Dublin Bus are not geared towards the consumer or choice, although I am not implying it is behaving as if it was part of an old eastern European regime or anything like it.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

By putting buses on the road?

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

They are putting people off the road who have buses. Dublin Bus is ensuring these other services cannot provide an efficient and effective service. That is the charge, and the finding is that it is guilty of it.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I welcome the Minister, the Minister of State and their officials. The committee, through its report, and everybody else see buses as a key interim solution while we develop some serious public transport. The Minister made this argument very strongly in his defence of metro north in Dáil Éireann when he said that buses, on their own, could not deliver the kind of capacity needed along the metro corridor. Given that buses should be playing a critical role, the Minister quoted the numbers of buses between 2000 and 2008, which showed very little increase. The reality is we need at least 300 to 500 additional buses. Clapped out old bangers, which probably had safety issues, have been replaced. We need a fleet of at least 1,600 buses for the greater Dublin area. I do not want to stray into the Estimate, but the Minister is doing nothing to try to bring this about, in terms of either giving Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann additional vehicles or coming forward with some arrangement to provide the additional buses. The Minister has failed to deliver the extra buses we need. We can do all the reports we like in the transport committee, but if we do not have extra buses for accessible and timely transport in all parts of the greater Dublin area, how can we have a modal shift to buses?

Over the last number of weeks our friends in the media have been saying that Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann are going to lose hundreds of drivers and hundreds of routes due to cutbacks. The Minister seems to be saying, in conjunction with the Minister for Finance, that the Estimate for the public transport subsidy in 2009 is going to be such that hundreds of routes will be eliminated. I have heard from County Wicklow, for example, that several important towns are losing their Bus Éireann service. Routes and drivers are also being lost in other parts of Bus Éireann's crucial network around Ireland. There is much fear in the two State bus companies that the networks and the number of workers will be slashed in 2009 and 2010. Is that the case? Rather than delivering what the committee, through its Chairman, has asked for, the Minister is going to do the opposite. Next year we are to have cutbacks, including in the provision of buses. Surely that makes a total mockery of what the Minister said in his introduction.

Deputy O'Dowd referred to the Circle Line and so on, but the biggest problem is that bus licensing is governed by an Act of 1932 which was passed under Cumann na nGaedhael. It was before the first Fianna Fáil Government supported by the Labour Party. Before 1932 there was an Act, which still pertains today, in an era in which most Irish people went around on bicycles and horses and carts. The horse was very important at that time.

The Minister and his officials have had years to address this but we still do not have new bus regulation legislation. The Minister keeps talking about it, as did the previous Minister, Deputy Martin Cullen, and another former Minister, Deputy Séamus Brennan, God be good to him. However, we still have nothing. Does the Minister not bear very heavy responsibility for the fact that we do not have a modern, efficient transport network?

With regard to the point raised by Deputy O'Dowd, I have discussed this issue at length with representatives of both the public and private sectors, and there is a fundamental point about running a mass transit bus service which Deputy O'Dowd and the Minister himself, at times, seem to miss. If we have a big population of travellers in the two rush hours, we must have a massive fleet to transport them. A key factor in the Circle Line collapse was the fact that the Circle Line and other operators do not have the fleets to match the demand at certain times. They need to have a sufficient number of vehicles when they are required. Clearly, there will not be the same number of people on these buses at all times.

It is nonsense for the Chairman to say that exactly the same buses will be operating across all hours. A workforce will also be required. We mentioned earlier the number of hours that taxis can drive. To run a mass transport system that moves many people, a particular workforce and fleet are required. I do not see, from what Deputy O'Dowd has said or what the Minister has said in the past, how this is possible without the provision of a significant fleet for rush hours. My information from Dublin Bus, a public service bus company, is that on no route, including the Lucan routes, did it operate outside the terms of the licence. It can show that conclusively to this committee, to officials or to anybody else. I credit the Minister with the investment he has put into, for example, the metro north in 2009. However, what is the point of talking about it when the Minister will not deliver it? In fact, it looks as though he is going to slash the whole service.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

My colleagues have talked a lot about issues to do with Dublin Bus, which is not as relevant to my constituency, but issues to do with Bus Éireann are pertinent. I am not sure whether the Minister delivered his script since he came back from the Dáil, but in it he mentions issues to do with Bus Éireann and the future of its services. We are all clear on the improvement and expansion of services in recent years. We have seen how deregulation in the UK has resulted in what I would consider a significant loss of services, particularly for smaller towns and villages.

Any competition that is brought into the rural bus market will have an impact on the services delivered to villages and towns. I would like to hear the Minister's views on this. Although there is a fair concentration of service along the main routes, it is my concern that the villages and towns currently served by Bus Éireann may not receive the same level of service. Clearly, if there are cutbacks next year, as has been indicated, some of those services will have to be adapted. We all understand the necessity of this. I would like to hear the Minister's views on deregulation.

Deputy Paul Connaughton took the Chair.

Deputy Frank Feighan

I welcome the Minister to the committee. There are a few issues I with to raise with him regarding the report. I welcome the fact that the Dublin Port tunnel can be used by any bus operator, whether Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann or private operators, as a means of obtaining faster journey times for commuters. One issue I have raised with the DTA and the taxi drivers is that taxis are still being charged to use the tunnel, which is incredible. I am not saying this in support of taxis but in support of consumers. If I take a taxi from Dublin Airport to Leinster House using the quality bus corridors, it will cost me €26 or €27. If I ask the driver to use the tunnel, as I have on numerous occasions, it will cost €15 or €16, but when one adds on the fee of €12, the total is €28. This is putting drivers off using the tunnel. I believe it is anti-consumer. I am not speaking on behalf of the taxi drivers but on behalf of consumers. Taxis should be allowed to use the tunnel free of charge. We have heard a lot of nonsense about how it could affect the traffic management plan and so on, but I believe it must be implemented. I am sick and tired of coming to this committee and raising this very serious issue.

I support taxis with regard to the issue of cloning, about which I spoke earlier. There is a serious problem with the cloning of taxis, and this must be addressed. From the point of view of the consumer, there are the problems of insurance and of taxes and revenue being lost to the Government, but there is also the problem of safety. People are using cloned taxis which may not have licences and are not vetted by the taxi authority.

Billions of euro have gone into the port tunnel and taxis should be allowed to use it free of charge. I would like a reasonable answer on this issue because I am sick and tired of bringing it up. Sometimes people say it is not their responsibility but that of the taxis or of the Dublin Transport Authority. It needs to be addressed because the consumer is losing out.

There is a bus service in rural areas, but one area that needs attention is that of school transport, for which the Minister is ultimately responsible. The price of school transport has gone up from €99 to €300 for a junior cycle student in the space of seven months. There have been four price hikes. That is not an incentive for parents to send their children to school. It is exorbitant, it is anti-family and it is anti-rural. There must be an embargo on such increases. Are these the final increases or are there more to come?

The genuinely hard-pressed parent in rural Ireland, who demands and depends upon school transport, cannot afford these increases. The service is quite good but the price is becoming so exorbitant that, ultimately, parents with two children in the junior cycle class at a cost of €600 per year will decide they are better off not paying for school transport and, in consequence, they will clog the roads with cars. This is ill thought out and does not heed the carbon footprint involved. The Green Party has not been consulted. They propose many good initiatives that I do not disdain. This issue must be re-visited, with regard to rural areas.

Vice Chairman (Deputy Paul Connaughton):

A Dáil vote is coming up, unfortunately. I will call on Deputy Kennedy.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

I shall need a longer time than the Dáil vote allows.

Deputy Frank Feighan

With regard to the National Roads Authority, I am incensed about the major inter-urban routes such as those between Belfast, Galway, Cork, Limerick and Waterford. These are necessary but an entire area of the north west has been neglected. The N4 and the N5 must be brought into the inter-urban route network as soon as possible and this matter must be considered. Bypasses of Carrick-on-Shannon and Ballaghaderreen are promised for 2012. Will these bypasses be addressed in the 2012 schedule? The Rooskey bypass is very successful. It used to be a single dual carriageway but is now a two by two that works very well and, by my estimate, cost the same as a single carriageway. The Minister's Department must consider such options more favourably.

Vice Chairman

I must interrupt the meeting. We shall return as quickly as possibly because we must conclude by 6.p.m.

Sitting suspended at 5.25 p.m. and resumed at 5.40 p.m.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

It is fair to say that bus services have improved substantially in recent years, including the services of Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann and private operators. However, increased bus services alone will never solve our traffic problems. One need only examine the congestion on the M1 every morning, as I do, stretching from Donabate into the city to see the extent of the problem. The Minister would agree a metro system is needed along with good park-and-ride facilities.

In advance of the metro extending to Swords we must install park-and-ride facilities on the outskirts of the city and in all suburban areas. I hear complaints from people in Swords and the new Holywell estate. People drive into these estates and park their cars to catch the new No. 142 express bus service to the city. It is something that the new DTA needs to address with the county councils. The same applies around the country.

Regarding the port tunnel, I welcome the Minister's statement that he and his officials believe it is open for all transport users, both public and private. The famous 41X bus, of which we have heard a lot over the last year, is now operational from Swords to the city in the morning but its return journey through the city in the evening does not pass through the tunnel. If the Department indicates it has no difficulty with using the tunnel Dublin Bus should be notified.

The 142 service serves Portmarnock via Malahide and Holywell to Rathmines. There are four services in the morning and this is clearly inadequate. Yesterday morning 40 people were left standing on the Holywell distributor road. For the benefit of members not familiar with the area, it is a new estate between Malahide and Swords with no reasonable access to anywhere else. There is a ten to 15 minute walk to reach to Swords to catch another bus. Some people did that yesterday and others had to wait at least half an hour for the last bus on the service. A more frequent service is needed and that is acknowledged by Dublin Bus.

The 128 route was set up to serve Clongriffen, which is adjacent to Baldoyle and Donaghmede and has two new large housing areas. With the downturn in the construction industry the number of occupied houses is relatively small. Dublin Bus — which I commended before — saw a market there and established a service which ran every ten minutes. The ten minute service is not needed outside of peak hours and the 142 and the 41X, which are in close proximity to it, could receive extra services without discommoding anyone living in Clongriffen. Those who live there are commuters who work in the city and there is limited use of the service during off-peak times. Perhaps the Minister could ask his officials to talk to Dublin Bus on the matter.

The Minister's report mentioned a cost and efficiency study which he expected to have available to him by the end of the year. When will the report be available to the committee? I hope it will identify issues I raised here, namely, routes that have a more than adequate share of buses and others that do not because we all wish to utilise resources to the maximum available capacity. I look forward to receiving that report.

Deputy Feighan mentioned the use of the port tunnel by taxis. He has a valid point. I mentioned previously the issue of cars being allowed to use the tunnel at a reasonable rate. In the context of carbon emissions and the use of energy it is ridiculous to have a number of arterial routes into the city that do not use the tunnel and are clogged up from 6.30 a.m. It is not sustainable. The usage of the port tunnel, which Deputy O'Dowd and I use frequently, is not even 50%. When I drive in here three or four days a week the number of trucks using the tunnel is always limited. One never sees a significant conglomeration of trucks using it and the number of cars using it is also limited.

The tunnel is a great piece of infrastructure that is underutilised. I accept when it was originally proposed, its purpose was to get HGVs out of the city centre and that aspect of its remit has been fully successful. We should now move on and examine the possibility of allowing cars to use it to stop congestion in other areas, particularly in built-up residential areas, to reduce CO2 emissions — which is a Government aim we all support — and stop drivers having heart attacks and arriving at work or returning home in a stressed condition.

Deputy Áine Brady

I welcome the Minister, the Minister of State and their officials. I also welcome the proposed legislation to speed up QBCs because until we have an efficient bus network — which we cannot have without QBCs — it will not be used by the public. The reform of bus licensing is also welcome. In my constituency in Celbridge we suffered from the withdrawal of the Circle Line service and I agree that subcontracting of private operators is an easy and efficient way forward than waiting for replacement or additional buses.

I agree with the comments of the Chairman on cohesion between Irish Rail and Dublin Bus. I regularly use public transport to travel to and from work and it is impossible for people to understand it if they have not experienced the different methods. I have spent time telling people what bus or connection they can use.

I would also like to see more synergy between Bus Éireann, Dublin Bus and private operators on bus stops because there can be one bus stop after another in a small area for different operators and I cannot understand why they do not share one bus stop.

Vice Chairman

A number of weeks ago, Mr. Fred Barry appeared before the committee and told us a there would be meeting of the board of the National Roads Authority in November when the level of priority for road projects likely to proceed would be decided. Can the Minister tell us if that meeting happened and the outcome of it?

Deputy Noel Dempsey

I thank the members. We have strayed into item No. 3 and we can cover both at once.

Regarding the report, the Chairman mentioned QBCs and welcomed the legislation. The aim of the legislation is to try and speed up the process. Some local authorities are reasonably good at moving forward with this and others are not so good. I want to give people the option of using existing legislation or new legislation which would be based on the railway order system in which there is one inquiry. It is better to do it in this way because one can see a strategic route rather than pieces of a route and all the potential difficulties that can create. I welcome the suggestions, proposals and recommendations in the report on that issue.

Deputy Áine Brady asked about QBCs and integration. One area where integration is needed is between the local authority, Bus Átha Cliath and Bus Éireann to eliminate the pinch points on the existing QBCs. I have a map in my office which shows all the pinch points in the greater Dublin area, which are largely in the city centre area, on all the QBCs. I have asked the local authorities to remove those over the next two years.

The Chairman and others mentioned the bus gate at Trinity. That is the first stage and we hope it will eliminate about ten pinch points from the system. We want to move on that very quickly. There will have to be a greater sense of urgency by the local authorities on this matter. Perhaps it is an issue I could discuss with the committee again.

With regard to the buses, I had a view when I addressed the committee 12 months ago when people talked about extra buses that those we had were not being utilised to full capacity. I have clear indications from the Deloitte report that this is the case. Deputy O'Dowd and the Chairman mentioned the provision of buses, efficiency, effectiveness and so on and providing a good service for the customer. That is needed. Providing more buses is not the answer. It is important to get the networks and the routes right and ensure they serve the areas of population. Those are the issues that need to be dealt with. I hope we will have some kind of a template, particularly with regard to one corridor, when the Deloitte report is instituted. In fairness to Dublin Bus, which I met earlier in the week, it accepts the point that there is a need for change. There were always difficulties about changes in the past, not all of which were the making of Dublin Bus. Much political pressure was applied at various stages by people from all over the place that a particular bus should not be taken off and a particular route should not be changed. We have gone beyond that stage and have to put in place an efficient, effective network.

Deputy Broughan who is not present asked what would happen next year. We have provided a slightly increased subvention to CIE for its bus and rail services. However, its fuel and other costs have increased substantially. That will have an effect. I have no more money for subvention. Part of the solution to the difficulties that will be experienced, so far as Dublin Bus and I are concerned, is that there will be a more rational service serving people from centres of population. That is the type of service we need.

Deputies on all sides know that if we can get the network right then the provision of buses will be easier. It will be easier for me to argue that I need more buses or more subvention because the number of passengers is increasing. The issue about the 40% extra capacity is not reflected in the numbers because the present buses have a greater capacity than the previously. We have increased the number of buses in the period 2006-08. We have spent €60 million on buses, that is, 200 replacements and 100 additional buses. There were other buses prior to that time. The fleet has grown by 40% since 1997, which is a big increase. When I look at a graph on capacity, as opposed to passenger numbers, capacity is going up while passengers numbers are staying level. That is not a good use of taxpayer's money. I am not saying we do not need more buses. We will need them into the future but when we get them we must ensure they serve the people.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

We do not necessarily need to buy those buses, we could contract them in.

Deputy Noel Dempsey

Not necessarily. I am glad Deputy Broughan has returned. He must have known I was about to refer to his comment that we have done nothing about bus licensing. We passed the Dublin Transport Authority Bill, on which I got co-operation from the committee and members opposite, which fundamentally changes the bus licensing system for Dublin Bus and the greater Dublin area. In the first half of next year it is hoped to reform the 1932 Act which, in the same manner, will fundamentally change the bus licensing system for the rest of the country. The DTA or its successor will then do all the bus licensing in an open and transparent manner. For all new PSO routes there will be open competition and the private sector will be able to compete on all new routes with CIÉ.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Can the Minister give us those PSO routes now?

Deputy Noel Dempsey

Every route of Bus Átha Cliath except the airport direct service and the tours are PSO routes.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Are they all loss making?

Deputy Noel Dempsey

Every route may not be loss making. However, when they are all put together it is a loss making service for the public. That is the reason we have to discuss breaking up the routes. Public transport is not a profitable business. Much more of the private sector would be in it if it was profitable.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I do not want to be rude or to interrupt the Minister but perhaps we can bring this issue forward. There are people who have bought and own buses and would like to get into the market but they do not get a PSO. Dublin Bus has routes which such people would like to——

Deputy Noel Dempsey

I accept that they cannot get a PSO.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

The problem is with the transparency of the funding we are given at present.

Deputy Noel Dempsey

One cannot get a PSO route by law until the Acts are changed.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I am trying to get to the kernel of the issue. Dublin Bus cannot say that all its routes are PSOs because some are making a profit while others are not. I would like to know those that are profitable and that do not need a subsidy. The allegation from the private sector is that they are using profitable routes to subsidise loss-making routes.

Deputy Noel Dempsey

Perhaps Bus Éireann is a better example. It is true that Bus Éireann has a number of commercial routes, the Expressway and so on, runs a good service and has a good network and is highly efficient. It uses those profits, in addition to the PSO and the subvention from the Department, to subvent the subvented routes.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

The point I am trying to make is about Dublin Bus. It is very important.

Deputy Noel Dempsey

I use this as an example of what needs to be done in Dublin. If we go down the route of picking every single loss making route and putting them out for subvention or whatever, that is not manageable. At one stage, the Deputy O'Dowd talked about managed competition. That is what we need to talk about. In areas around Europe where free and open competition is allowed, the big operators come in, reduce prices and put everybody out of business. Yorkshire is a good example of this. There is then a call that a particular service must be subvented in a climate where there is no competition. If we are to go down an appropriate route it is best done in an organised manner.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

The Minister's Department has found that a question arises as to the operation of Dublin Bus services where there is a licensed service in competition with it. The evidence, in so far as the services that are in competition with the services provided by Morton's Dublin operation, is compelling. There is compelling evidence that Dublin Bus is abusing its position.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

That can be taken as read, Chairman.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

The problem is that it is happening. The Minister and I probably do not disagree on this matter. The key point is that if the current position is allowed continue and Dublin Bus is protected by the system, and if an operator who has a franchise for a route goes out of business, that is a scandal.

Vice Chairman

Before the Minister replies, we have only five minutes remaining and I would like him to deal with the Transport 21 aspect also.

Deputy Noel Dempsey

The normal way to proceed in a PSO is to examine the network in totality, and that is what we will have to do in Dublin. From next December, all new operations or PSO routes will have to be examined but if we do not have a contract signed with Dublin Bus on specific levels of service and so on by this time next year, I will have to put all of the routes out to——

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Will Dublin Bus continue with its existing routes for a period of——

Deputy Noel Dempsey

We will say five years afterwards but that is only if the new style contract is in place by this time next year. Otherwise, I will have to advertise it. That highlights the urgency of getting the Bill through and the contracts in place.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

May I ask a brief question? I apologise for being delayed at another meeting. Is the Minister and the Minister for Finance, Deputy Lenihan, in discussions with Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann on major cutbacks in services?

Deputy Noel Dempsey

No. I am talking to Dublin Bus and I have indicated what will be its subvention. Any cuts it has to make is an operational matter for——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

It is ridiculous.

Deputy Noel Dempsey

It is life. On the Transport 21 programme——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

The Minister should be made Minister for Finance. We would have a better chance——

(Interruptions).

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I thought he had some of the characteristics.

Deputy Noel Dempsey

I thank Deputy Broughan for wishing that on me. I thought he liked me.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

He might have been somewhat more generous on some of the macro issues.

Deputy Noel Dempsey

The total capital provision for 2009 is €2.9 billion and under Transport 21 it is almost €2.4 billion. All of the existing contractual commitments in 2009 capital projects under Transport 21 already commenced are substantial, at almost €1.8 billion, and all of them will be fully met.

The 2009 allocation for national, regional and local roads is €2.1 billion.

Vice Chairman

I ask the Minister to conclude that point because we must adjourn the meeting.

Deputy Noel Dempsey

The 2009 allocation for national roads will be €1.44 billion. Over €600 million is being made available to local authorities for regional and local roads. The priority for the National Roads Authority in 2009 is the motorways.

In the area of public transport, an allocation of €917 million is being provided for in 2009. That will considerably increase the capacity of public transport.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister. I propose that the notes circulated be noted.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

The Minister might respond to that at the Estimates meeting.

Vice Chairman

We will bring this part of the meeting to a conclusion.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.05 p.m. until 3.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 17 December 2008.