JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 11 Mar 2009

Wheelchair Accessible Taxis: Discussion.

Vice Chairman

I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or of an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome Mr. Michael Doyle and Mr. Tony Maher of the Irish Wheelchair Association and Ms Clodagh O'Brien of the Not for Profit Business Association. They are as welcome as the flowers in May. We shall hear a short presentation from Mr. Doyle which will be followed by a questions and answers session.

Mr. Michael Doyle

I thank the Vice Chairman and the members of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport for giving me this opportunity to present the association's concerns regarding accessible taxis. As a response to the decreasing numbers of accessible taxis, a group of six disability organisations representing people with disabilities in Ireland came together to address the issue. The organisations that took on this challenge are the Disability Federation of Ireland, Inclusion Ireland, the Irish Wheelchair Association, the National Council for the Blind of Ireland, the Not For Profit Business Association and the Rehab Group.

The publication by Goodbody economic consultants of the report, Economic Review of the Small Public Service Vehicle Industry, was timely in respect of our presentation because it highlighted and readdressed many issues we will present to the committee. One of the major findings of that report was the significant dearth of supply within the industry for people with disabilities. That comes directly from the report rather than from our group. Figures in 2009 from the taxi regulator's office put current numbers of accessible taxis at 6%, down from 21% in 2000. That is a major drop during this period.

As members of the committee will be aware, access is an issue for people with disabilities. To be able to access affordable, reliable and convenient transport is a significant issue. Over recent years a great deal of money has been spent on public transport, primarily trains, buses and trams. People with disabilities can access these now. However, there is still a major problem for people who require a door-to-door service, as do many of those we represent. In many parts of the country and in cities that is still the only option for people with disabilities. With only 6% of the current taxi fleet being accessible, it is not difficult to understand why we have so many calls to all our offices from people who are frustrated, upset and disappointed at not being able to access wheelchair accessible taxis. The reality for people who do not have access to taxis is they often remain isolated in their homes and are severely restricted from taking up training and employment and participating fully in their local communities. It is a real issue for our members and one we have highlighted for many years.

In 2004 we produced a comprehensive report, Towards an Accessible Taxi Service for All. Many of the recommendations made in that report have been taken up since by the taxi regulator, primarily those in respect of vehicle design and specification, signage, driver training and the licensing of dispatch operators. Despite that positive development, the issue of the number of accessible taxis in circulation has not been addressed. That is our major concern. We made a recommendation in our 2004 report that a minimum of 20% of accessible taxis in circulation should be what we seek. We still look for that.

Our consortium proposes a three-pronged approach as a first step in achieving this. First, we suggest that the current licensing procedures be maintained whereby a taxi operator who purchases a licence to provide an accessible taxi service will continue to get it at a reduced rate in comparison with the standard taxi licence. This is currently the only financial incentive supporting taxi operators to provide an accessible taxi service. We wish this to continue.

Our second suggestion has been put forward on a number of occasions, namely, financial support for the taxi industry. We believe that to have a quality or even a basic service for people with disabilities there must be some financial support. This recommendation is supported by the Goodbody report which states: "The review indicates that the current policy of seeking to provide financial support for the purchase of wheelchair accessible cabs and ensuring that minimal levels of service are provided to people with disabilities is the correct approach".

We maintain that in the current climate the most effective approach for taking this on would be the introduction of a VAT and vehicle registration tax release scheme. When we discussed with the taxi industry why taxi drivers are not purchasing wheelchair accessible taxis the prime reason given was cost. Wheelchair accessible taxis can cost between €43,000 and €65,000, including VAT and VRT of 40%. Therefore, a taxi that costs €45,000 costs just under €20,000 in VRT. If that were removed there would be a significant incentive for the taxi industry to support the measure and adopt it. The Goodbody report refers to the proposed new national standards which will be introduced by the Taxi Commissioner in 2012. Undoubtedly, these will add to the already relatively high cost of accessible vehicles. In the absence of financial support, the current fleet is likely to suffer from a lack of replacement or upgrading, and by 2012 there could be a significant dearth in the number of taxis. That simply drives home the point.

Our final recommendation concerns awarding public contracts for Government bodies. There was a significant opportunity to incentivise the taxi operators to take up public contracts once they had accessible taxis. Our information indicates that in one county in Ireland in 2006, €1.6 million was spent on taxis for HSE services. If that were to be co-ordinated throughout the country, it would be an incentive to support taxi operators to increase their stock.

The programme for Government has committed to 100% wheelchair accessible taxis by 2012. Given the current low level of taxis in circulation we find it very difficult to believe this could be achieved. We maintain that with the implementation of our recommendation of 20%, the target could be achieved.

For most developed countries in the world an accessible taxi service is considered a part of its normal transport provision. In the UK some 52% of taxis are accessible. We ask the committee to use its powers to ensure that people with disabilities in Ireland have access to an adequate accessible taxi service which meets their needs. A good deal of documentation has been produced to support us over the years and we call on the committee to support us and work with us to bring this to the next level.

Vice Chairman

Thank you. Does Mr. Maher wish to comment?

Mr. Tony Maher

I thank the Vice Chairman for the opportunity to address the committee. We have been to the fore as a group in trying to raise this issue. In fairness to the Taxi Regulator, it has introduced several steps vis-à-vis training, standards, controls and so on. The missing link in this area is the provision of accessible taxis. Let us consider the Goodbody report. It reiterates almost exactly what was stated in the previous Goodbody report in 2005. The same issues have been raised again. In fact, the service has deteriorated since 2005. There are some startling figures. If one examines the report one sees the level of coverage in many rural areas throughout the country.

Let us consider County Tipperary, which has four accessible taxis. Counties Cavan and Monaghan have between ten and 12 accessible taxis. Such figures extend throughout the country. County Clare had no accessible taxis registered with the Taxi Regulator. There may be some there now, but very few. All in all, the situation is very bleak. Everyone accepts this, but the main reason we are here today is to ask how we can provide a solution to the issue. We are very much aware of the economic circumstances of the country at present. The vehicle registration tax, VRT, and VAT relief is a very easy way to help to provide a service, stimulate an industry and, at the same time, there is very little cost to the Exchequer.

Vice Chairman

Does Ms O'Brien wish to comment?

Ms Clodagh O’Brien

I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak today. Mr. Doyle and Mr. Maher have covered the majority of the points, but there are two areas where decisions remain to be made and we call for the committee's support for these. First, the implementation of the standards and second, a decision in respect of financial supports to incentivise an increased number of available accessible taxis. These points have been made in the two previous Goodbody reports and in our report, Towards an Accessible Taxi Service for All, in 2003 and in the submissions that the Taxi Regulator has made. There is clear agreement in terms of the solutions. At this stage we must work towards implementing those solutions. The impact that would have on the lives of people with disabilities would be significant.

Vice Chairman

I intend to call the committee members en bloc. I call Deputy Broughan.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I warmly welcome the delegation. It has identified an important gap in public transport and in which major action must be taken. The figures provided for significant areas of Ireland such as counties Tipperary, Cavan and Monaghan are horrendous as is the fact that no service is provided there. We have all been contacted by people throughout the country who believe this is an area that has been allowed to slip away.

When the process of change began in the taxi industry in the 1990s several committee members, such as Deputy Cuffe and I, were involved. The requirement at that stage was that all new additional taxis should be accessible. Accessibility was a key principle of the rainbow coalition, which included the Vice Chairman's party. Accessibility was to be an absolute prerequisite of the expansion of the fleet. Where did that requirement go in recent years and what changed? Are citizens with disability victims of deregulation as it has unfolded in this area?

Our colleagues in the media have commented widely on the Goodbody report. However, accessibility is an area that is not investigated and the movement of people into the industry as workers seems to have left this sizeable gap. In terms of the existing 27,000 licences, how many cars are accessible throughout the country, including either taxis or cabs? Are figures available? How many of those 27,000 cars are accessible now? Regarding the cost, the Goodbody report refers to a submission from the delegation to the effect that the cost of a wheelchair accessible taxi was €52,000. That was some years ago in the 2005 report. Now, the Goodbody report has produced a figure of €39,000. By the way, we intend to hold a full discussion on the Goodbody report at a future meeting of the committee. Obviously, cost is a significant factor.

Does the delegation believe the cuts in taxation or the advantages it proposes for wheelchair accessible taxis in terms of taxation will work? What figures has the delegation worked on in that regard? A figure of €20,000 was mentioned as being the tax cost of a new car if it is wheelchair accessible. Is this something the delegation wishes to be addressed in the forthcoming budget? The budget will involve cutbacks and new taxes and so on, but some measures in this area could facilitate a large group of citizens. The delegation referred to other countries such as the UK, which has 52% wheelchair accessible taxis. What are the figures for the rest of Europe? Are entrants to the industry encouraged to go for full accessibility rather than for the narrower definition? The delegation has identified a significant problem. It has made strong representations to other Deputies and to me. It is good that the matter has claimed our attention and we are determined that whatever shape the taxi industry takes in the future, accessibility must be a fundamental principle, which it clearly is not at present.

Deputy Frank Feighan

I welcome the delegates to the committee and I thank it for the presentation. To say I am shocked is an understatement. In 2000 some 21% of taxis in this city or country were wheelchair accessible. Despite all the fanfare, one decade later that figure has dropped to 5%. I am puzzled why the delegation must come before the committee to get something going. Obviously, the delegation has spoken with the major stakeholders, but nothing has changed. The Taxi Regulator, the Minister for Transport, the Taxi Drivers Federation and the committee should meet immediately with the Irish Wheelchair Association to try to get through this impasse. We can propose recommendations for the budget for VRT issues and so on, but it is quite obvious nothing will be done.

I am shocked that after ten years this is still an issue. As politicians we have been made aware — I am in business — that most buildings should be wheelchair accessible. I know in our towns those using wheelchairs go up and down and point out where there are problems with accessibility. In the past ten years, the number of taxis have been a quarter of what they were, which is a problem in rural areas where we all need taxis. I am shocked. A letter should be sent by the committee after this meeting to arrange a meeting immediately with the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, the taxi regulator and members of the Taxi Drivers Federation to see if we can get through this impasse.

Regarding HSE services, I understand that not many taxis, particularly in the west of Ireland, will be rented by the HSE because the budget is disgraceful. There are people who do not have access to any public transport and must make their own way to hospitals in Galway. I live 70 miles from Galway and there is no public transport connection, therefore, elderly, frail people are expected to travel on their own. I do not know if that is a positive aspect for the delegation's campaign. I ask the Chairman to arrange a meeting with the Minister immediately.

Deputy Ciarán Cuffe

I welcome the delegation. It put forward three recommendations and I have no problem with any of them. The first one, that the reduced rate for wheelchair accessible taxis should continue, is a no-brainer. The second issue concerned the VAT rebate. That is interesting because yesterday EU economic and finance Ministers met and decided individual member states could have more flexibility on setting VAT rates. I suspect this could be a very direct example of where Ireland could move without having to sign off with 26 other countries. I will try to progress this issue with the Minister.

The delegation's third recommendation is also good. All public contracts should use accessible taxis. I would go further in that I and my party believe that every new taxi coming on stream from here forward should be fully accessible. The number of licences being issued has declined in recent months, but now is the time for us to send a clear signal to the industry that every new taxi should be accessible, particularly when one looks at the stark figures of a decline from 20% or 21% to 5%. We must move this issue forward. That is the first principle we should adopt and it would override the delegation's first recommendation. I would like to hear the delegation's views on that.

The delegation mentioned the programme for Government. We need to set a date, whether it is one year, five years or ten years hence, but from 1 January on the particular year chosen, every taxi in the country should be fully accessible. I would to like to hear the delegation's views on that because it is the only way we will achieve equality for those with disabilities. We should set a date and I will raise the matter with the Minister, Deputy Dempsey. If it is in the programme for Government we must do it. I will do my best to move on.

In its reply the delegation might touch on the kinds of vehicles which are out there because there has been a debate over the years as to what vehicles are appropriate. Perhaps the delegation has some thoughts on the situation regarding vehicle suppliers and, if so, I would welcome them.

Senator Martin Brady

I welcome the delegation. I am au fait with the good work it does because I am a regular visitor to its headquarters in Clontarf and I acknowledge that. I agree with Deputy Cuffe, in particular his last point with which I fully agree. It is the way to go. From here on, anybody who applies for a licence must have a wheelchair accessible vehicle.

The delegation mentioned in its presentation the number of wheelchair accessible taxis in Cavan and Monaghan. I am fairly familiar with that part of the country. The number of taxis in that area are mainly located in Monaghan town, Carrickmacross and Cavan town. When one looks outside that area to, for example, Virginia and Ballyjamesduff, one would be lucky to get any taxi. I am aware of many taxi operators who got rid of wheelchair accessible taxis and when one asks them why, they have three reasons. They say it is not financially viable, that the demand is low and that many wheelchair users have a fear of being transported in vans because they rattle and so on.

Another issue is that it is very difficult for some people, as Deputy Cuffe mentioned, to recognise at a taxi rank if a vehicle is accessible. People may believe they are accessible, but they are not. The quality of the vehicles on the roads which are accessible leaves a lot to be desired. I do not disagree with anything the delegation proposes and I fully support it.

I know this is a side issue, but more pressure should be put on local authorities to dish paths. In the area around where I live, Donaghmede and Raheny, there is a wheelchair user who is constantly in contact with me and I am trying every week to get bits and pieces done for him. It should be a prerequisite for the county councils to ensure all the paths are properly dished so that people can get around safely.

Vice Chairman

I agree with Senator Brady.

Deputy Áine Brady

I welcome the group again. I am also familiar with the Irish Wheelchair Association from my many visits to its Clane premises. I again offer my support to its contribution today. It has set out its points clearly. On the matter of the 20% minimum level of accessible taxis it is looking for, how does it see that being rolled out evenly across the country so that there is 20% everywhere? Does it have a plan for that? Deputy Cuffe and Senator Brady mentioned that having all taxis accessible would be an easier solution. Is what we are asking for a difficult proposal? I again offer my support, like the rest of the committee, to the points the delegation has raised.

Vice Chairman

As has been stated, I assume that the reason there are not more accessible taxis relates to cost. If this was a paid proposition we would not be here today. That is the way the market goes. I saw a figure of €20,000. Do I take it that is what it would cost a person who is now a taxi owner to have his taxi converted or to purchase a new one? Is that the actual extra cost? Perhaps the delegation could give us some indication because I am as amazed as anybody else here that this is still an issue. I thought four or five years ago we would not have to have a meeting like this.

The economics involved, as everybody stated, is the reason it has not happened. How much more expensive is it for a taxi owner to put a suitable accessible taxi, rather than an ordinary one, on the road? That is the crucial point in all this. The next question is where to find the funding which will allow those people to do that. All my colleagues referred to that issue in one way or other. I would like to hear the views of the delegation because, as it can see, all Deputies and Senators from all parties are 100% committed to doing something about it. I assume the problem from the delegation's point of view is that the last time it appeared before a group such as this, while there was similar support little progress was made. It is against that background that the committee is anxious that, whatever we as a committee decide to do afterwards, real progress is made.

Mr. Michael Doyle

I thank the committee for its support. I will endeavour to answer some questions and pass others to my colleagues, who have done a lot of work. On a side note, I emphasise that while the Irish Wheelchair Association is represented here, a consortium of five or six groups have been very much involved.

There was significant media coverage of the Goodbody report and it is fantastic that it laid such heavy emphasis on the requirements to address the need for accessible taxis for people with disabilities. That shows its importance and where it stands in the scale. The report is similar to that issued in 2005.

We estimate the primary cost of a vehicle coming in is between 43% and 65%, depending on the standard of the vehicle. The new standard for vehicles being introduced by the taxi regulator for 2012 has well-defined specifications, space, accessibility and what is required. The main change it represents over the current system is that now I could get a taxi in the morning and have it adapted to what is seen as a reasonable standard for accessibility. This will lay out exactly what that will be and there will be significant difficulty in getting a vehicle adapted. The vehicle will possibly have to be purchased in advance, already adapted, as it came off the manufacturers' production line.

That will address people's fears. Our representation group has given us positive feedback and the Goodbody report mentions our members' good experience of individual drivers. Individual drivers have been supportive and have gone beyond what is expected of them in providing the service. There remain, however, situations in which our members are transported in a less than safe way in that they are less than ideally strapped in or they may not have restraints and that is why some people are nervous about travelling, which is reasonable.

We welcome the proposal that all new taxis be accessible——

Vice Chairman

Does Mr. Doyle believe that is realistic?

Mr. Michael Doyle

It is not realistic to expect 100% of taxis to be accessible. We would like to see that happen and to work towards achieving it but to get 20% across the country would be a step in the right direction.

It is difficult to get comparable numbers. Figures in Norway are similar to ours but there is a major difference in the public transport service. The Goodbody report refers to support from local transport services. We do not have that as it exists in other countries.

Mr. Tony Maher

The United Kingdom has 50% accessibility because the local authorities there control the issuing of licences. In several of its jurisdictions it is mandatory that all taxis be accessible. There is a 15% VAT rate and no VRT there.

Deputy Ciarán Cuffe

Is the standard London taxi, or a variation of that, fully accessible?

Mr. Tony Maher

Yes.

Mr. Michael Doyle

We understand from our input to, and feedback from, the taxi regulator that is the standard to be recommended in the new specifications to be introduced in 2012.

Mr. Tony Maher

When making comparisons with other countries it is important to stress that the level of accessible public transport is significantly higher in many cases. The United Kingdom has 52%; Finland, 15%; the Netherlands, 20%; Norway, 10%; and Sweden, 10%. The following countries have also introduced VRT and VAT relief systems: Denmark, Finland, Germany, parts of France, Portugal and Spain, so there is a precedent in other countries for incentives for the taxi operator to buy an accessible vehicle.

Vice Chairman

Does that in any way mirror what we provide in the disabled passengers' concession?

Mr. Tony Maher

Yes. We picked a figure of €15,875, which directly mirrors the passenger VRT and VAT relief system. That is the way to go. The €15,875 would in most cases replicate the difference between the cost of a good saloon, €25,000, and an accessible vehicle costing €40,000. This sets a standard too for planning and budgetary control——

Vice Chairman

How would that be controlled?

Mr. Tony Maher

There is a system in place for the VRT-VAT relief scheme, which is tightly controlled. There are several conditions, for example, one cannot sell the car inside two years and one cannot buy it under a lease or car hire scheme, which prevents problems about ownership or somebody failing to make their repayments. That is the obvious way to go. We calculate a price differential of approximately €15,000 between a second-hand saloon for approximately €25,000 and an accessible car. There may be some additional running costs too because some of these wagons are bigger so the driver has to build that into his overall budget.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Is that not one of the advantages, that the cars are bigger?

Mr. Tony Maher

Absolutely. It is double edged.

Mr. Michael Doyle

The VAT and VRT relief would not impose an extra revenue burden on the Government because it would bring extra vehicles into the system. According to the Goodbody report, 3% of vehicles are replaced so this would be extra revenue that would not have been anticipated and would not be seen as a loss.

Vice Chairman

Taking that €15,000 as a ballpark figure, would many taxi people want to take it up if that concession was available?

Mr. Michael Doyle

We believe so, particularly if it is tied in to the issuing of Government contracts for providing services. Having a quota for accessible taxis would be a major incentive. There are people who have gone to the expense of buying and adapting vehicles so there is reason to expect that there would be uptake if the financial support were made available. These vehicles offer more scope to taxi operators because when not being used by people with disabilities, they can carry bigger crowds and are more secure. Our members who have travelled abroad and used accessible taxis say they are much more comfortable than the standard taxis. If anyone here today saw a black taxi and a saloon, which one must bend down to enter, he or she would likely get into the modern black taxi.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

How old are those taxis?

Mr. Tony Maher

That is an interesting question because the figures reinforce the urgency of the timeframe. A total of 69% of the accessible taxi fleet is five years old or more. It is frightening to discover that 26% of the fleet is either ten years old or older. The taxi regulator recently introduced a nine year rule for all new licences but there is a derogation for wheelchair accessible vehicles, which is inconsistent. One can see the average age profile of the vehicles. There is a serious requirement for new accessible stock to come on stream quickly, otherwise the figures will——-

Vice Chairman

We met the taxi regulator here on a different issue. Could some of the revenue, regardless of whether it is as big as some people suggest, streaming into her office be siphoned off?

Mr. Michael Doyle

Some of it has been issued, although we do not know how much. Money was set aside for a subsidy under a previous budget that was not introduced. The taxi regulator has been trying to identify with the Department of Finance how much that was.

Vice Chairman

How much money is in the kitty?

Mr. Michael Doyle

We are not aware. At that stage there was an indication that money had been paid out to support a small number of people, but we were not given full facts or figures. The current and the previous taxi commissioners acknowledged the requirement for a subsidy for the taxi industry to encourage people to take it up and we hope we are pushing an open door here. There are financial opportunities to do so in terms of VAT and VRT.

Ms Clodagh O’Brien

The age of the fleet shows how urgent it is that our recommendations are implemented. If we are on the verge of buying large numbers of cars for a new fleet, we must do this immediately. It is important also to take an integrated approach. We see our recommendations as a complementary package of solutions and the urban and rural solutions must be put in place. As has been pointed out, we must take into consideration access to public transport in some areas.

Vice Chairman

I thank the witnesses for attending. This has been a good meeting. We will look at all the ideas expressed and put them directly to the Minister for Transport. On every relevant occasion in the committee, we will raise the issues with the stakeholders involved.

Deputy Ciarán Cuffe

We should respond specifically to the issue of the taxi regulator and raise the question of what happened with the funding.

Vice Chairman

Is there any other business?

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

There is a lot of other business in the transport arena.

Deputy Ciarán Cuffe

Perhaps the committee will formally welcome the progress made in the Labour Relations Commission talks with Dublin Bus, where there seems to have been a tentative breakthrough.

Vice Chairman

Has there been a breakthrough?

Deputy Ciarán Cuffe

Yes.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

It has been brought to my attention that people who work for the Green Party do not have access to the new cycling scheme. I was given information by the majority of Departments, including that where the Minister is a Green Party Member, and it appears that workers from the Green Party cannot cycle to work under the new scheme. There was an announcement in the budget, but we are still waiting for our bicycles. Many teachers and other public servants have contacted us about the scheme and so far only the Department of Transport has a time-line for the scheme. Perhaps we will raise this issue at a future meeting.

Vice Chairman

We shall put it on the agenda.

Deputy Ciarán Cuffe

It is my understanding that a circular is to be issued by the Department of Finance on this issue. There is a lot of enthusiasm for the scheme and it will be made available to public servants in the coming months. From the conversations I have had with bicycle shop owners, it has been a great success. The sooner we grant access to those public servants, the better.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.45 p.m. until 3.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 25 March 2009.