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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 17 Jun 2009

Dundalk Port: Discussion with Dundalk Port Company.

The next item on our agenda is a discussion with Dundalk Port Company.

I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Before we proceed I formally introduce Mr. Raymond Burke, Raymond Burke and Associates, who has now been contracted by the committee to act as our consultant during our examination of port companies. I thank him for his help to date and look forward to his help and advice.

I now welcome Captain Frank Allen, chief executive officer, Dundalk Port Company. He also holds the unique position of harbour master of Dundalk Port. I propose that we hear a short presentation which will be followed by a question and answer session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Frank Allen

Dundalk Port Company is one of Ireland's smallest port companies as it employees six full-time staff and has a casual labour force of about 15. I was appointed chief executive and harbour master in March 2003. This may sound a bit harsh but I would describe Dundalk Port as a mud creek. It is situated eight miles from the sea, where ships up to 3,500 tonnes and with a maximum length of 120 m can navigate to the quays close to high water. These ships sit safely on the bottom and discharge their cargoes. On completion of their cargo work they sail on the next available high water. The advantage of Dundalk Port is its closeness to the new road infrastructure linking the M1 motorway to the north, south and midlands.

On my appointment to Dundalk as CEO, I found the port had a major problem with silting of the river. Through NDP funding the port company was grant-aided to the tune of €1.1 million towards the cost of dredging. We tendered for the dredging work and received quotes, on the open market, of between €6 million and €8 million. Unfortunately, the port company was unable to raise these funds to carry out these works. The board then agreed that we would purchase our own dredger. The total cost for the project was €1.8 million and it saved the Exchequer €4.2 million.

The port company had very successful trading in 2006 and 2007 with profit margins of above €200,000. The next year was a tough one with a fall off in the importation of building materials and the export of scrap for the production of steel. This year will not be easy for the port company although we are receiving additional cash from outside dredging contracts. We are the only dredging company wholly owned in Ireland and our dredger is available for charter. Over the past years the company has carried out dredging at various ports such as the new port at Port Oriel, Clogherhead, where we spent a year dredging the new port and harbour, Kilkeel in Northern Ireland where we are presently dredging, and Fenit, County Kerry, where we carried out major deepwater dredging for the port last year. We carried out some work for the Port of Cork and for subcontractors working on the riverside. We also worked in New Ross and up until last week we worked in Dublin at the Macken Street Bridge, the famous new bridge that arrived in Dublin. I carried out the original dredging for it and I finished it last week. We have also done work for Howth Harbour and Howth Yacht Club.

With regard to expansion, the port company has commenced work on an impact study to build 200 m of new quays. This is a two to three year project and will enable the port to handle more cargo due to the additional quay space. The company is also looking at new projects such as inhouse ship management to increase its cashflow. That is who I am and what we do.

I thank Mr. Allen. He said that the profit margin in 2006 and 2007 was €200,000. What is the company's total turnover and number of shipments?

Mr. Frank Allen

Our turnover in those two years was around €2.2 million. In the first year we had 180 ships and in the second year there were 200 vessels.

Do they mainly deal in building materials and scrap?

Mr. Frank Allen

We also deal in other commodities such as coal, grain, plasterboard, steel, timber and the export of scrap and peat.

Does Dundalk have the potential of attracting business away from the ports of Drogheda or Dublin, particularly from Dublin Port where there is traffic congestion and so on?

Mr. Frank Allen

Dundalk is a bit unique. It has direct infrastructure with the new motorways, so we can offer easy access to and from the port. We are also very cost effective. We did not raise our port costs for the past two years because we knew there was going to be a downturn in the market. These factors make it quite an attractive port for small ships of up to 3,500 tonnes.

Is it unique to Dundalk that ships can sit on a mud creek?

Mr. Frank Allen

Yes, we are one of the few ports in Ireland that has such a clever option. The European ship building market has looked at this type of shipping and is building between 25 to 30 new ships. These ships are designed specifically to sit on the river bottom. The UK has some similar ports, such as the River Trent, the River Humber, King's Lynn, Sutton Bridge, etc. They are geared for the Irish market and the UK one and, obviously, we fall into the same bracket. Therefore, these ships are suited for these types of ports.

Does it have to be a special type of ship?

Mr. Frank Allen

Yes, these ships are strengthened with double bottoms and are flat bottomed. They can sit on the bottom of the river, and discharge from there. Safe ground is written into their charter party.

I welcome Mr. Allen. As a representative from County Louth, I commend him on the work that he has done since he took up his position in Dundalk. I also commend him on being a good businessman and saving the Exchequer €4.2 million while keeping his dredging company open for business.

I know that the port is very small but I welcome the fact that the company employs six people full time and up to 15 casual labourers at different times. Any employment potential that a port or organisation can create is very important and welcome. I hope that the Exchequer can assist him in developing Dundalk Port. How much will it cost to develop the extra quay space?

Mr. Frank Allen

We anticipate the cost for building 200 m of quay will be approximately €4 million. We have three ways to invest in this type of project. One is obviously if the port company invests and borrows 95% of the moneys and put a small deposit on it. Second there could be a 50:50 joint venture. For example, if we found one of the port users who was interested in investing 50% of its cash into the quays together with ours, those two quays could be operated as a joint company. Third, it could be done with total external investment. I would not mind doing the joint venture option because it would obviously encourage the customer to stay at the port.

The point is Dublin Port Company is going after a particular niche market. If it found a port user who is prepared to invest with it, that seems like a reasonable option if it means it is cost effective and keeps that customer using the port.

The company seems to have got involved considerably in dredging. Obviously that is pretty useful. How productive is that work? What profit, if any, does the company make from that? Is the idea to keep the vessel in business?

Mr. Frank Allen

It is a bit unusual but the dredging section of the company had €150,000 in the bank at December 2008, which was quite good considering it was not trading for the full year. Obviously dredging on the open dredging market is in the summertime from March until October. We are tendering for a long-term contract with one of the Northern Ireland ports to do maintenance dredging. We are working on two or three other tenders also.

How much property does the company own? How active is its property portfolio?

Mr. Frank Allen

We have four berths in Dundalk. We have three working berths and a lay-by berth. We have approximately two acres of hard standing area for holding general cargo such as timber and steel. The original utilisation of Dundalk Port when it was corporatised used 17% of its useable space. To date it is using approximately 34% to 35% of usable space. Obviously we will see the turn of the market in due course. For the future, with ships getting longer and with commodities we will need bigger holding areas and hard standing areas for holding cargoes such as timber and steel.

The problem is that the port is limited in the size of vessel it can accommodate.

Mr. Frank Allen

Yes. The Dutch are very clever and are building particular vessels for these markets. They are not just looking after Dundalk. They are looking after ports on the east coast of England. We complement those ports. There is ten or 15 years of trade available to Dundalk.

What is the economic issue? Obviously the more volume a shipping company can carry per ship the cheaper it will be per unit moved.

Mr. Frank Allen

Not necessarily.

I ask Captain Allen to educate me. The company is doing the opposite.

Mr. Frank Allen

Yes. However, we are looking for high paying high quality high cubic cargoes. If a ship has 3,000 cu. m of timber, she only has 2,000 tonnes of cargo. It might be a 3,000 tonne ship but the shipping company is getting a premium because the ship is carrying a high quality cargo such as timber. Therefore, it suits our clients to bring in that size cargo on a ship of that size. Even though she is not carrying her deadweight the shipping company is getting more money on the high paying cargo than it would get on grain, for example.

I do not understand.

Mr. Frank Allen

A shipping company that loads a ship with 3,000 tonnes of grain will get a certain amount for taking it from Rotterdam to Ireland. If a ship is loaded with 2,000 tonnes of timber, the value of the timber is higher and so the shipping company is paid a higher sea freight on the timber than it would get on the heavier commodity of grain. We are looking at high stowing cargoes such as timber and plasterboard which provide premium freight rates. These shipping companies like to use ports such as Dundalk. They are getting a cheap port and yet they are getting fairly good sea freights on their cargoes.

Why would they not use a deeper port with more capacity and carry three or four times the volume?

Mr. Frank Allen

The market does not demand it. The market demands 3,000 cu. m of timber and does not demand any more. Even that would be a very big cargo of timer from the continent.

Why would someone not want to take in twice that amount?

Mr. Frank Allen

We could not hold that.

I am not talking about Dundalk Port specifically. Why would someone not bring in double the amount?

Mr. Frank Allen

Obviously it costs money to hold stock. It is quite a large amount of stock and it represents a cut-off point.

Captain Allen is referring to someone bringing it in for his use as opposed to a wholesaler supplying it to others.

Mr. Frank Allen

That is right.

Is there competition in the wholesale trade?

Mr. Frank Allen

The timber market is very closed. There are approximately five operators in Ireland who buy from each other. It is a very organised set up. If one individual is low on a commodity he will buy from one of these operators.

Is it a closed shop?

Mr. Frank Allen

Yes. It could be a closed shop.

Is there no competition?

Mr. Frank Allen

That is the reality.

What Captain Allen describes seems to be a rather unusual arrangement.

Mr. Frank Allen

It is a high stowing cargo and that is why Dundalk does not need bigger ships. Importers will not bring 6,000 or 7,000 cu. m of timber into Dublin. It does not happen any more. They always buy 2,500 or 3,000 cu. m because that is the market and reflects their cashflow. They sell that in a space of time and the next cargo follows on within a month or three weeks. That is what we are finding. Years ago in my younger days in Irish Shipping, we used to bring 10,000 cu. m of timber to Ireland from the west coast of America. That is finished. It is all Baltic timber that is coming into Ireland.

Surely there must be considerable potential for what Dundalk Port Company is doing with the smaller cargo coming in directly.

Mr. Frank Allen

There is. We are in recession, but it is coming back. People are in the Baltic buying timber. There are three cargoes of timber being bought, which shows it is starting to move again. It stopped last August and it is beginning to come back nice and gently. It will be a while before it really hits.

How much is being exported from Dundalk Port?

Mr. Frank Allen

We have been exporting two to three cargoes of scrap a month. We are down to approximately one a month now because obviously the demand for scrap is still down. The scrap goes to north Spain where the steel is manufactured. We then bring the steel back from north Spain. We have two main cargoes with scrap out and steel back.

When representatives of the Irish Exporters Association appeared before the committee they complained about capacity problems, etc. Surely there must be potential for Dundalk Port to export more than just scrap.

Mr. Frank Allen

Scrap is not the most expensive cargo. Approximately 2,500 to 3,000 tonnes would be exported in one shipment. We could not do containerisation. Ships in Dundalk Port need to sit on the bottom and container ships are not allowed to sit on the bottom. I would love to be using container ships but it is totally out of my league because I cannot load container ships on the bottom. They need to be afloat at all times. It is in their charter party.

What is the area of Dundalk Port?

Mr. Frank Allen

We have 100 acres of land that is unusable because it is a bird sanctuary. That is the north marsh in the port. It could be reclaimed, but it is being left as a bird sanctuary. We have approximately 6 acres.

I thought Captain Allen said there were two acres.

Mr. Frank Allen

I have a hard standing area of two acres for holding cargoes.

Is that already developed?

Mr. Frank Allen

Yes, for holding cargoes.

What about the remaining area that is not used as a hard standing area?

Mr. Frank Allen

That comprises the riverside quays and the top of the port itself. That land could be developed to another hard standing area at the top of the port also.

Captain Allen said it would cost approximately €4 million for an additional 200 m of quay.

Mr. Frank Allen

That is correct.

That seems a very small figure.

Mr. Frank Allen

Yes. We were fortunate. There were quays there originally — they fell in. To drive pile that quay alone would cost approximately €800,000. We would bring in a subcontractor to drive pile, tie back and build the quays. The rest is hard fill and hard core — all done on a subcontract basis. We did all our yards on a subcontract basis. We costed it on the open market and brought in small contractors and concreted all the work ourselves and saved money in the process.

The company is to be congratulated on the dredging initiative and this initiative. That kind of approach is contrary to most of the approaches we hear about. When the public sector wants to do some work, it usually tends to go the other way. I am sure Deputy O'Dowd will agree that the dredging initiative was a wonderful one.

The project would have cost between €6 million and €8 million. The company bought a dredger for €1.8 million.

Mr. Frank Allen

I bought the dredger for €350,000. The total cost of the project, including the dredging, paying off the dredger and doing my own work, was €1.8 million.

That is remarkable. The company had received quotes of between €6 million and €8 million.

Mr. Frank Allen

That is correct.

It bought a dredger for €350,000.

Mr. Frank Allen

That is correct.

The job cost €1.8 million.

Mr. Frank Allen

Including the dredging.

The company saved the Exchequer €4.2 million.

Mr. Frank Allen

That is correct.

Will Captain Allen write us a letter to that effect? I am genuine.

Mr. Frank Allen

I will.

We will send it to the Minister for Finance.

He might learn a lesson.

We need to adopt Captain Allen's sort of thinking if we are to bring about the changes that are needed.

Will Captain Allen give the committee a short summary of the proposal to develop a 200 m pier using the methods that have been described? I really think we need novel thinking of that type in this country at the moment. Do I understand correctly that the 100-acre bird sanctuary is protected and will never be developed?

Mr. Frank Allen

I do not think it is a problem. The port is giving something back to that area. I had not realised, until I met many people around the country who like to go birdwatching, that Dundalk Bay is such a popular place for birdwatchers.

Do the brent geese go there?

Mr. Frank Allen

They do.

That is a big issue in terms of tourism. Brent geese fly from Canada to spend the winter here.

Has Captain Allen had any bad experiences with planning obstacles, regulations or bureaucracy that have caused him to throw his hands up to the heavens and ask what the authorities think they are doing?

Mr. Frank Allen

I have a very good board. When I took over the port, the members of the board considered the possibility of getting involved in dredging. We took a risk. Corporate governance was an issue, to be fair. We had a choice between buying a dredger to do it ourselves, or closing down the port. While the decision that was made by the port was ultimately a long-term one, it was made in the context of a once-off situation. We had to do it or get out, so we decided to do it. If we had applied to buy a dredger, we would have had to wait for between six and 12 months to get permission. The pace of bureaucracy would have been quite slow. We would have had to submit one or two business plans to explain what we were trying to do in such a short space of time. We had an emergency, in so far as the port would have been gone if we had done nothing. It was the first time a semi-State board decided to take a decision of this nature. The board backed what I was doing. It understood the risks involved. It worked.

How long ago was that?

Mr. Frank Allen

It was five or six years ago.

Were there any problems with planning permission?

Mr. Frank Allen

No. We had to get permission to buy the dredger. The board agreed to buy the dredger before permission was received from the Department. It was a case of doing that or closing the port. The board backed me in what I was trying to do. It worked quite well.

Was it a new dredger?

Mr. Frank Allen

No. It was 40 years old at that time. It is 45 years old now. It passed a Department of the marine docking survey last year. We are very impressed with the condition of the dredger.

What is it called?

Mr. Frank Allen

It is called the Hebble Sand. It is an old British dredger that traded out of the Humber for many years. It was owned by the Associated British Ports, which built four dredgers in years gone by so that the ports could do their own maintenance. The Hebble Sand was built in Lowestoft in 1963. The quality of the vessel, after 43 years, is amazing. The members of the committee are welcome to come and have a look at it if they are passing by.

Mr. Frank Allen

It is worth looking at.

I suggest that Deputy O'Dowd can go.

We can bring the Chairman and leave him out in the sea.

I will not go up there. The Deputy can have his photograph taken beside the dredger.

We will leave the Chairman on the slob lands.

Captain Allen and his colleagues have gone around the country to do dredging for other port companies.

Mr. Frank Allen

Yes. We go to tender whenever anything comes up. We are currently tendering with the fisheries boards in Northern Ireland to undertake maintenance dredging at some of the fishing ports in the North. We are working in Kilkeel.

The company is to be congratulated on this great initiative. Captain Allen mentioned that it is considering a joint venture. Can he give us a more thorough explanation? Are there other opportunities for mutually beneficial joint ventures that would bring the public and private sectors more closely together? Is there scope for joint ventures that would involve co-operation with the company's neighbours?

Mr. Frank Allen

Many of the ports work together. We are working on a project with the Port of Cork. I refer to the new ferry service from Cork to Swansea. As someone who spent a great deal of time running and operating ferries, I specialise in ferry services. We have worked with the Port of Cork on its plan to try to establish a ferry service between Cork and Swansea. We have a great deal of experience in this interesting area. I operated the original service between Cork and Swansea. I ran it quite successfully. We bought a ship and set it up. It worked quite well. We have been advising the company as it tries to restart the service. That is an example of two ports working together. One of my customers is quite willing to take a 50% share in any quay that may be built. He wants to be able to put his product down there constantly, so that his flow of scrap can be exported every other week to northern Spain. He wants to have direct access to a berth. One sometimes has to wait for a berth, but he does not want to do that. He feels that if he invested in a berth, he could bring all his traffic through Dundalk Port to northern Spain. That is another example of a joint venture.

Is the port considering that venture?

Mr. Frank Allen

We have discussed it and we are considering it. We are working on an impact study, which is quite a slow process. We will get there eventually.

What geographical area would the man in question be drawing his scrap from?

Mr. Frank Allen

He would be drawing it from Northern Ireland. It would be a cross-Border relationship.

Is scrap sent overseas from Dublin?

Mr. Frank Allen

It is sent overseas from Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Dundalk, Derry and Coleraine.

A little bit is sent from Galway.

Mr. Frank Allen

That is right. I forgot Galway, which exports one consignment a month when things are busy.

How much is exported from Dundalk Port?

Mr. Frank Allen

Business is quiet. When we were busy last year, we were exporting three or four consignments each month, which was quite a lot.

Is there any potential for some of the scrap that is exported through Dublin Port to be exported through Dundalk Port? I am thinking about the need to reduce traffic movements in the Dublin area.

Mr. Frank Allen

The advantage of Dundalk Port is that there is no congestion there. It is easily accessible from the Dundalk-Newry motorway, which suits people coming from Newry, Armagh and places like that. The two big exporters in that area use Dundalk Port for export purposes.

Does the steel come back on the return journey?

Mr. Frank Allen

The raw material goes out and the finished product — the steel — comes back.

Does Captain Allen believe there is potential in other areas of activity?

Mr. Frank Allen

I believe we can specialise in ship management, which is a niche market. As a small port, Dundalk Port can only do so much. If we were to develop an in-house ship management company, we could pursue other ideas. The representatives of a certain organisation asked us if we could manage their dredger for them, on their behalf. That is an example of an idea that might create cashflow. Another organisation asked us if we would consider managing one of its ships at Dundalk Port. Ship management is one of my specialties. Dundalk Port owns a ship broking and ship agency company called Lockington Shipping. We have been asked whether we would be interested in managing some ships under that name in Dundalk. We could control the entire operation — the international safety management code and the accounts, etc. — from our offices. We are considering this new idea.

It is a good idea.

Mr. Frank Allen

It is. It has been discussed in-house by the board of Dundalk Port.

Would that tie into the policy of developing the Irish shipping industry?

Mr. Frank Allen

Yes. Nobody else in Ireland is doing that. There are ship management companies in the UK and on the Continent, but there are no such companies in Ireland.

Is the restoration of the Cork-Swansea route a viable option?

Mr. Frank Allen

They are doing their best. They have set up a co-operative in west Cork. They have raised €3 million from individual shareholders. The process is ongoing and the management of the contract will come up in due course.

Does Mr. Allen have any advice to offer the joint committee on the Harbours (Amendment) Bill?

Mr. Frank Allen

Our only concern about the Bill was its provision on the retirement age of pilots. Many pilots have a retirement age of 60 years but my pilots and those employed by some of the other ports are self-employed and want to work until they reach 65 years. I understand the relevant provision in the Bill is being changed and the new retirement age will be 65 years. Clearly, pilots must be medically fit and must undergo departmental medical examinations and so forth. It is a little unfair, however, to ask men who are fit and who want to continue to work until 65 years to retire.

Has the position changed?

Mr. Frank Allen

Yes, the change to the Bill is almost through. That was the most significant problem we had with the legislation. I pushed to have the change introduced and that will be done.

What is Mr. Allen's position on removing local authority members from port company boards?

Mr. Frank Allen

It is not so much a question of removing local authority members from the boards of port companies. The board of Dundalk Port Company has 12 members which is twice the number of people I employ. Six or seven members would be more than adequate. We also pay out fees to the board. It would be preferable to have slightly higher fees and fewer board members.

How much does the board cost?

Mr. Frank Allen

The members of the board are reasonable. While the cost is €1,700 per person per annum, as a small operation it would help us to have these funds for cashflow.

Members of the board should not receive a fee and should work pro bono.

Mr. Frank Allen

It would be better to pay board members a little more and reduce their number. Dundalk Port Company has the lowest fees of all the port companies. I understand the New Ross Port Company has the second lowest fees, which in some companies amount to €4,000 to €5,000 per board member.

Should fees be increased?

Mr. Frank Allen

The best way to reduce costs is to increase fees and reduce the number of board members.

It appears Mr. Allen wants a good bank to back his business.

I followed some of the debate on my monitor. The corporate plan of Dundalk Port Company is impressive. How much has it been affected by the recession?

Mr. Frank Allen

Dundalk Port Company is fortunate in that it is cash rich. The reason we are in a comfortable position is that we kept money when we made it. We will be able to survive the recession, although we do not anticipate that things will start moving again for another 18 months to two years. We will be ready when the upturn comes as ships are being built. All we need is more space because ships are becoming longer. My positive outlook for the company is based on the fact that, like Sutton Bridge in England, the east coast ports here, including Dundalk, are mud creeks. One can see this on the websites. The other advantage they enjoy is their proximity to motorways which means they do not experience congestion.

How will developments in Greenore and Bremore impact on Dundalk Port Company?

Mr. Frank Allen

They will not have an effect on us. Both Bremore and Greenore ports will work with ro-ro and container business. I cannot do this work because Dundalk Port Company cannot accommodate such ships. As these developments will not affect me. I wish Bremore and Greenore ports the best of luck.

Dundalk Port Company operates in a niche market.

Mr. Frank Allen

Yes, I understand that market because I operated and owned those types of ships in the past.

Is Mr. Allen the harbour master?

Mr. Frank Allen

I am the harbour master and port manager and I operate a dredging company.

Is there scope for creating more jobs in the port?

Mr. Frank Allen

Yes, but not yet. For example, we have a team of ten people in ship management. The company will have a turnover of between €3 million and €4 million and a profit margin of between €250,000 and €300,000. There is scope for jobs in this specialised area. Expansion is possible and there is a niche market for that type of business.

Is any of it linked to the Irish Maritime Development Office? We have not had a chance to invigilate that agency either in the Dáil or the joint committee. I am interested in the register and the idea that——

Mr. Frank Allen

The open register is a good idea. While there is a link, I do not know the extent of it.

Does Mr. Allen consider Dundalk as a possible base for the open register?

Mr. Frank Allen

Yes, it could be a base. Ship management links into the Irish Maritime Development Office — all this links up. Having spent much of my life running and managing ships before running ports, I see the opportunities. My company is small and I ask myself in what areas I can generate additional cashflow. To do this, I need to look at outside businesses that I can control in Dundalk from one office or base.

The joint committee will deal with the issue of local authorities next week. Is Dundalk Urban District Council and Louth County Council involved in Dundalk Port Company?

Mr. Frank Allen

Yes, we have a member from each of the councils. I have several new board members, including a couple of business people who are terrific because at last I have the type of person who understands what I am trying to do. They are behind me on the project.

Ivisited Galway port recently. As an integral part of selling Dundalk, is the port company linked up with the local chamber of commerce?

Mr. Frank Allen

Yes, we are members of the chamber and keep in touch with it, although we do not get involved in every issue. We are riding a storm given the current conditions, but it is one we will get through.

I thank Mr. Allen. The joint committee has heard about a highly impressive performance by a small State-owned company, which is showing initiative and taking a visionary approach to the task in hand. Mr. Allen is to be complimented and congratulated. We have submitted a series of detailed questions on financial matters to which we would like a response.

Mr. Frank Allen

The Chairman asked me other questions regarding my plan for the quays. Will the joint committee write to me on the issue?

No, I ask Mr. Allen to provide some detail and outline in particular the company's experience in dredging. It will be worth highlighting this to our bosses.

Mr. Frank Allen

We are the only dredging company in Ireland. The plan is based on Associated British Ports in the United Kingdom which has its own dredging company on a larger scale than ours. It has five or six dredgers which it charters out on the open market when they are not engaged in dredging in their own ports.

Perhaps the UK company provides a good working model and other ports will join Dundalk Port Company in the venture.

Mr. Frank Allen

Yes.

The joint committee adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 1 July 2009.
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