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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 21 Oct 2009

Dublin Port: Discussion with Dublin Port Company.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

From Dublin Port Company, I welcome Mr. Enda Connellan, chief executive, Mr. Michael Sheary, chief financial officer, and Mr. Seamus McLoughlin, head of operations. I propose that the delegates give a short presentation following which there will be a question and answer session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Enda Connellan

I thank the Chairman and members for the inviting us to address them regarding their review of the ports sector in Ireland. My colleagues are Mr. Michael Sheary and Mr. Seamus McLoughlin.

Dublin Port Company is a self-financing, private limited company wholly owned by the State. The company's business is to manage Dublin Port, which is Ireland's premier port and a key element of our national strategic infrastructure. As critical infrastructure, the operations of Dublin Port are of national and regional significance in terms of achieving a competitive, dynamic and efficient economy. Dublin Port plays a pivotal role in facilitating trade in the State and handles 41.4% of total Irish seaport trade. The majority of the unitised goods imported through Dublin Port are time-dependent consumer products which are purchased.

The company traces its origins to 1786, when the Corporation for Preserving and Improving the Port of Dublin was established. It was reconstituted as Dublin Port and Docks Board in 1867. Dublin Port Company was established as a corporate entity in 1997 and is responsible for the management, control, operation and development of Dublin Port. The company is controlled by a board of directors appointed by the Minister for Transport. It is the company's statutory duty under the Harbours Acts 1996 and 2009 to ensure the provision of adequate facilities for ships, goods and passengers in Dublin Port. In pursuit of this duty, Dublin Port Company provides world-class facilities, services, accommodation and land in the harbour for ships, goods and passengers. Unlike other aspects of strategic national transport infrastructure such as Dublin Airport, Dublin Port plays a critical role in the national economy not only in the movement of people but as a facilitator of trade in goods. Dublin Port Company operates the sixth largest roll on-roll off port in Europe and is a profitable, successful and efficient commercial company which pays dividends to the State as its shareholder. In addition, it makes a significant contribution to the national and regional economy in taxes, dividends, city rates and employment.

It may be helpful if I give a broad outline of trading activities at the port. Dublin Port provides a range of facilities dealing with many different types of cargo and including: lo-lo terminals; ro-ro terminals; cruise ship facilities; passenger and car ferry terminals; dry bulk loading, unloading and storage areas; liquid bulk, including oil and fuels, jetties and terminals; break bulk facilities; and leased and licensed sites for backup and port-related activities.

Dublin Port Company does not provide stevedoring services directly but licenses a number of competing terminal operators to operate in the port. This model, which is unique in Ireland, has ensured competition within Dublin Port among rival operators and encouraged competition with other ports on the island. Dublin Port Company's charges to our unitised customers are 10% lower than 20 years ago and have not been increased in the meantime.

Located in the heart of Dublin city and at the hub of the national road and rail network, the port is a key strategic access point. The Dublin area is itself responsible for almost half the nation's GDP. Dublin Port is a transport hub and is strategically located in terms of access to necessary road and rail infrastructure, as envisaged by Transport 21. Dublin Port is the only port that is truly connected to the national rail network and it is strategically linked to the Dublin Port tunnel, which leads directly to the M1 and M50 motorways.

Dublin Port has significant natural attributes. Unlike some other east coast ports, it is open in all weather conditions. It is located at the centre of Dublin city and the heart of the economy. It connects the two most important economic areas in Ireland and Britain, that is, the Dublin region and the Manchester-London corridor. It facilitates the arrival of cruise liners and passenger ferries with a total passenger footfall of 1.3 million. Cruise passengers alone contribute between €35 million and €50 million to the regional economy. These natural attributes and locational advantages are supported by strategic infrastructure such as rail links to and within the Dublin Port complex which directly connect the port to all major population centres in the country, the Dublin Port Tunnel and Transport 21, the main thrust of which is to upgrade the national road and rail networks. Dublin Port is located at the hub of both the rail and road networks and not merely at the end of a railway or motorway. Accordingly, Dublin Port is well positioned to continue to cater for the recovery, growth and expansion of our economy and the resulting movement of goods, as it has been doing for millennia.

Given that trade will be carried by larger and more efficient ships and international indications that the up-sizing of vessels is continuing apace, it is critical that we have the strategic port infrastructure and deep water facilities in place to service these vessels in advance of their appearance. Otherwise, we will be confined to servicing smaller and less efficient vessels, which will ultimately result in higher freight costs. This will have cost and competitive consequences for the economy and consumers. We must plan ahead for the strategic needs of the future rather than play catch-up because of a failure to anticipate and address international developments in trade and logistics. It is in this context that we have advanced the Dublin gateway project, which is currently before An Bord Pleanála.

Irish ports must play an ever-increasing role in facilitating the economy to recover especially in respect of exports, which have grown 2% in value terms in the first half of 2009. Dublin Port is by far the largest, most efficient and best connected port on the island and accounts for more than €35 billion in trade in 2008 value terms. It is a key part of our national strategic infrastructure and in trade terms a critical gateway to our trading partners. Failure to address and anticipate the effectiveness and efficiency requirements of Dublin Port will result in economic damage, missed opportunities for recovery and greater pollution. If less efficient locations are used to feed the city of Dublin, we will incur greater internal and external costs for the economy.

Looking to the future, demand in Dublin port is likely to rise sooner than in other Irish ports in the second half of 2009. For example, a new service into Dublin will increase the annual throughput next year by more than 10% in ro-ro. Dublin Port has maintained market share in tradeable goods since the downturn.

Since its incorporation in March 1997, Dublin Port Company has consistently delivered profits which have resulted in an accumulated profit and loss account reserve on the company balance sheet in excess of €207 million by 31 December 2008. Turnover in 2008 was more than €70 million, delivering an operating profit of €27 million and earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortisation — EBITDA — of €33 million.

In the 12 year period from corporatisation to December 2008, Dublin Port Company financed capital and infrastructural developments totalling €254 million. In addition, over the same period, the company contributed more than €236 million to its pension fund. As such, the company paid pensions out of current income rather than through a formal fund. This level of funding and investment, which at the end of 2008 amounted to almost €500 million, has been fully met by the company without recourse to Exchequer funding. The strength of the company's core business and operating cash flows is evidenced by the fact that this funding has been achieved chiefly through its own resources, with bank borrowings amounting to only €36 million at the end of 2008.

Dublin Port Company's success in meeting the requirement of the ports policy statement for the delivery of efficiencies and ensuring the company continues to contribute to national competitiveness has also been clearly demonstrated. In this regard, Dublin Port Company has led the way in developing the competitive model pursued at Dublin Port where ten competing operators currently utilise eight terminals across the ro-ro and lo-lo modes that make up the unitised sector. This constitutes almost 80% of total throughput in Dublin Port. In 1990, one ro-ro terminal operated out of the port providing services to two operators. The modernisation of the port since 1992 has been central to ensuring the port was able to facilitate an almost fivefold increase in trade in the intervening period, from 6 million tonnes in 1992 to 29 million tonnes in 2008.

Importers and exporters have choice and flexibility in how they manage their transport requirements within the complex logistics chains that underpin the economy's ability to trade. Competition also ensures that value for money is at the centre of their decision making processes. Notwithstanding the current downturn, Dublin Port Company will continue to generate operating profits in excess of €21 million per annum. In addition, the company policy of returning a dividend to the State amounting to 20% to 30% of profit after tax, excluding exceptional items, will continue to be adhered to. In this regard, Dublin Port Company is the first and only State-owned port company to return a dividend to the State.

I am also pleased to confirm to the joint committee that the board of Dublin Port Company has recently endorsed the key recommendation of the Indecon report into Dublin Port, published recently by the Department of Transport. In particular, the board has formally endorsed the key conclusion of the report which found, after a detailed cost-benefit analysis of seven different scenarios, that the retention of Dublin Port in its present location, together with on-site expansion, would deliver the highest net present value in cost-benefit terms. The certainty provided by the Indecon report is welcomed.

The letter inviting Dublin Port Company to appear before the joint committee outlined some areas on which we may wish to present our views concerning the constraints imposed on developing the port and expansion of trade. The letter also suggested that we may wish to highlight areas where there is an absence of joined up thinking or policies affecting the port's performance. I will be pleased to address these issues in the open discussion that follows this presentation.

The critical role played by the ports does not receive adequate recognition. The ports are an element of national infrastructure that has tended not to have been prioritised or addressed in any strategic sense. For example, until recently some people tended to consider land at Dublin Port in terms of its building development potential and not in terms of the critical function the port plays in the national economy. Sadly, this view still prevails among some officials and planners in Dublin City Council who have a long-term vision to move the port to another unspecified green field site and allow the port lands to be developed with shops, apartments and offices. Thankfully, the Indecon report has shown the folly of a focus which values the port purely as a property play rather than critical national economic infrastructure.

I am also concerned that there is a lack of cohesion among some of the statutory authorities on the issue of port expansion. For 20 years, Dublin Port was caught in a bind between Dublin City Council and the Department with responsibility for marine in our attempts to lodge a planning application for new port space. The Department would not grant a foreshore licence until we had planning consent and the council would not entertain a planning application until we had a foreshore licence. Thankfully, the enactment of the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Act allowed us to have our port expansion plans at least assessed from a planning perspective. The application is currently before An Bord Pleanála at oral hearing.

I would be pleased to answer any questions members may have on Dublin Port and Dublin Port Company. I extend an invitation to members of the joint committee to visit the port to see our operations at first hand.

I thank Mr. Connellan for his detailed presentation.

Who is the chairman of Dublin Port Company?

Mr. Enda Connellan

A chairman has not been appointed but in the absence of an appointed chairman, the articles of association allow for the appointment of a chairman from time to time, as has occurred.

I am not being inquisitorial in this regard. For how long has Dublin Port Company been without a chairperson? When did the previous chairperson resign or leave the position?

Mr. Enda Connellan

In accordance with the articles of association, there is a chairman for every board meeting. There is not an appointed chairman.

Who is the chairman?

Mr. Enda Connellan

Mr. Brian Kerr.

Who was his predecessor?

Mr. Enda Connellan

Mr. Joe Burke.

How do the respective roles of these individuals differ?

Mr. Enda Connellan

One was appointed by the Minister, while the other is appointed from time to time by the members present at board meetings.

The chairmanship rotates.

Mr. Enda Connellan

It depends.

I am trying to understand the position. In putting the following questions to Mr. Connellan, I am playing the role of devil's advocate because I wish to elicit a response from him on several of the issues he raised, particularly towards the end of his contribution. I will challenge Mr. Connellan to provide reasoned answers but in doing so I do not intend to be critical.

Mr. Connellan stated that certain Dublin City Council officials and planners do not appreciate the critical function of Dublin Port. This is a serious issue to raise in a forum such as this. Will Mr. Connellan elaborate on that comment? What is Dublin Port being prevented from doing?

Mr. Enda Connellan

The issue we have is that Dublin City Council as an organisation — I am not identifying councillors or individuals — has a vision to move Dublin Port to an unspecified location. It commissioned a major report from CDM two or three years ago which supported moving the port to an unspecified location. This is not good for a company which is trying to expand.

Is such a move an objective in the council's development plan?

Mr. Enda Connellan

No, the objectives in Dublin City Council's development plan are to support Dublin Port Company.

The new objective is militating against what Dublin Port Company wants to achieve.

Mr. Enda Connellan

That is correct.

How will Dublin Port Company overcome that problem? Is Dublin City Council frustrating the company's planning?

Mr. Enda Connellan

The Indecon report debunked the report in question, which had a cost-benefit analysis that could not be understood by any of us.

How will members understand it if Dublin Port Company could not understand it?

Mr. Enda Connellan

Others could not understand it either because they were unable to explain it to us.

There are proposals relating to Drogheda Port near Balbriggan. If the economy is to recover, it must be done through exports which are linked to efficient ports. Mr. Connellan referred to rail, the Dublin Port tunnel and so forth. If Dublin Port Company does not enjoy the full support of the local authority for its plans and a green field site is available in another location, should Dublin Port and Drogheda Port get together, particularly if a deep water new port is needed? Mr. Connellan, in his analysis, stated that the trend towards ever larger ships will necessitate ever deeper berths. Does my suggestion make sense?

Mr. Enda Connellan

Is the Deputy referring to the suggestion that Dublin Port get together with Drogheda Port?

If Dublin Port cannot service the larger new ships because the draught in its waters is not sufficient——

Mr. Enda Connellan

The best way to service ships is in the centre of the economy. The Dublin region accounts for 50% of GDP and Dublin Port handles approximately 40% of the country's trade by tonnage. We are satisfied the proposal before An Bord Pleanála will give us the necessary wherewithal to service all that trade for the foreseeable future.

In terms of the proposal Drogheda Port has for a new port to take the excess activity Dublin Port cannot currently handle, does it make business and commercial sense for the two ports to come together? Is there a new dynamic? The Harbours (Amendment) Act was recently passed. There is a great deal of new thinking in port policy. Do Mr. Connellan's views reflect that?

Mr. Enda Connellan

I have no fixed views on it. I am sure Deputy O'Dowd has spoken to representatives of Drogheda Port, who seem to have quite fixed views on the issue. We do not believe the nation's trade should be handed over to a private company like Hutchison Whampoa——

This is an important point.

Mr. Enda Connellan

——because we believe that would not be competitive.

Is Mr. Connellan saying that because a private company is managing this?

Mr. Enda Connellan

It is a different process. I understand Hutchison Whampoa does not deal with ports of less than 2 million, 20-foot equivalent units, TEU. Only one port in the country has that capacity, Dublin Port.

The economy and the punter want to see successful developments but they do not want to hear or see conflicts. There are always conflicts between port authorities and local authorities. A new dynamic is needed — I am not being pejorative or judgmental but there is room for new thinking in Dublin city and in the port authorities generally to deal with the issues which now arise. If we are to modernise our economy those barriers should be removed.

Mr. Enda Connellan

My comment on that is that companies are established as competing entities, which was the wish of the Legislature, and we compete with one another.

I do not have a problem with that. It allows ports to work together. The key point of the legislation which was passed was that ports can think outside the port. They can move to new locations and interact more dynamically without losing their ethos.

Mr. Enda Connellan

I understand that but the competitive model Dublin port employs is completely different to the non-competitive one employed by Drogheda.

I welcome Mr. Connellan and his colleagues. I have the reports to 2008. How is the port performing this year, in terms of trade to October, including ferry travel? I would like some guidance on that, in regard to the recession.

Mr. Enda Connellan

Our estimates for the year 2009 are that volume will be down 14% on last year and revenue will be down 12%. If one converts it to cash we will be down approximately €8 million in revenue but will be down some €4 million in profit, which indicates our focus on our cost base. I do not mean to introduce the idea of green shoots, but it seems to us that since last March there has been a bottoming-out of 2.1 million tonnes or 2.2 million tonnes per month which, if one annualises the figures, is some 25.5 million tonnes per annum. We think it is bottoming out. It is not too surprising because most of the goods we import are consumer goods we use each day.

It reflects the macro economy, and because we are a small open economy imports and exports play a key role. Mr. Connellan mentioned Indecon. On behalf of the Labour Party I opposed option 5 of the Dublin City Council report, which would effectively close the port. I and my party remain strong supporters of Dublin Port. In regard to Indecon and the current situation at An Bord Pleanála regarding strategic infrastructure, from my reading, I note Indecon said we had sufficient capacity until 2025 or 2030 to keep the port rolling in line with a developing economy after 2011. In that context, can Mr. Connellan say we are maximising the hundreds of hectares we currently have in the port to get the maximum usage of the land we have?

Mr. Enda Connellan

The size of the port is 250 hectares. We mainly need deeper water, land close to it and longer berths. For instance, the Ulysses was built to fit a berth in Dublin and not the other way around. We also need to be able to cater for 2,000 to 3,000 TEU 20 foot equivalent units, which would comprise 1,500 to 2,000 large 40 foot units. We need to be able to cater for ships like that because they are feeder ships and we reckon ships will grow to that size. We do not think they will grow much beyond that. We will always be a feeder relay port so we are satisfied that we will be able to cater for the demand of the Dublin city and wider Dublin region into the future.

I have been the Labour Party marine spokesperson for a long time. We could have disposed of lands. My constituents and the neighbouring constituency of Dublin North-Central remain bitterly opposed to the plan to reclaim 20 hectares because they do not think it is necessary and feel the impact on their lives and their enjoyment of the mouth of the Tolka and the Liffey would be so negative that the cost-benefit to them is bad. They cannot see why the port cannot continue to do the excellent work it does in the promotion of jobs and the trade of our country within the territory it has at its disposal.

Mr. Enda Connellan

Eventually that will be up to An Bord Pleanála to decide and we will all have to live with that decision. Dublin Port originally started up in Wood Quay. We have moved down the estuary. The type of ships I referred to, that is, 2,000 to 3,000 TEU ships, will have draughts of 12 and 13 metres and will need to be able to go deeper than we currently can. The deepest ship we can currently cater for in Dublin port is approximately 10.5 metres. Deeper water and deeper berths and land close to the port are required.

As Mr. Connellan will know, there have been two reports, the Indecon report from the Department of Transport and another from the Dublin Bay committee which was led by a former Green Party county councillor, Ms Maher, who is now my colleague in the Labour Party. Both emphasised the importance of the bay as an environmental lung for a growing city region and how that could be merged. One matter which was not sufficiently considered and which I felt was important was the issue of climate change. The fact that a now defunct political party considered putting Manhattan in the middle of the port area, given the climate change parameters, seemed to us to be completely crazy.

Other colleagues may have important questions to ask. Unfortunately I was unable to travel with the previous committee, but it travelled to Buenos Aires and a number of similar major port cities or ports in major city regions. It reported to us at the time that a number of the cities concerned had a downstream port; that is, a major port and a downstream port.

Dublin Port has Greenore. I accept what was said about Hutchison Wampoa and that it is not principally involved in the interests of the Irish people. Does Mr. Connellan see any merit in having a downstream facility run by Dublin Port?

Mr. Enda Connellan

There is merit in getting one's goods close to the market. The most ecologically sensible way to move goods is by sea. That is why 99% of goods, particularly volume goods, are moved by sea while 1% are moved by air. Slightly more valuable goods tend to be moved by air. The closer goods can be brought to their markets, the smaller the carbon footprint imposed on the economy.

People love watching ships. When the Queen Mary 2 recently visited Hamburg, up to 30,000 people watched it enter the port at 4 o'clock in the morning. Hamburg is a port in the middle of a city. Mercer Consulting did a report which showed the most favoured cities in the world are those with ports.

I was in Barcelona harbour on my holidays recently. It was striking how the port is contiguous to and part of the city.

Under the new harbours Acts, the Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, has pointed out how the port companies have smaller and tighter boards. I, with my Fine Gael colleague Deputy O'Dowd, made an argument for local government and worker representatives to be appointed to the boards. How does Mr. Connellan see smaller boards impacting on the administration of the largest port in the State? What is the current position of the port company's pension fund?

Mr. Enda Connellan

A smaller board is easier for a chairman to manage. The current composition of the boards is correct.

We have reached the minimum funding standard, which is a legal requirement, for the pension fund. It is our aim to meet the actuarial standard which will allow for increases in pensions.

I welcome Mr. Connellan and his colleagues to the committee. Dublin Port's trading record is impressive with more than €200 million of reserves, of which any organisation would be proud. Notwithstanding some Deputies' comments about former board members, this record stands on its own.

It has been suggested that the location for docking cruise liners in Dublin Port is not the best tourist spot. What is Mr. Connellan's view on this? The proposed Dublin Bay infill at Clontarf should proceed. Other modern cities can deal with cruise liners coming into the heart of their cities. I see no compelling environmental reason for the infill not to proceed. Other politicians' fears are unfounded. From what we see in other shipping ports and cities, there is no reason this area cannot be developed.

The port company seems to be having political problems with the infill project. Mr. Connellan suggested some in Dublin City Council do not always agree with the port company's views. Will he comment on this?

Coming from north Dublin, Mr. Connellan will appreciate that I welcome the future development at Braemore. I agree with the Indecon report which stated Braemore could operate independently of Dublin Port's operation in Dublin city. Competition in the shipping business would be welcome. Dublin Port should be well able to rise to the challenge. I do not see the Chinese-owned private company affecting the company's effective operations.

Will Mr. Connellan repeat the values of tonnage which he gave to Deputy Broughan earlier?

Mr. Enda Connellan

Since last March, our tonnage per month is steadying at 2.1 million tonnes to 2.2 million tonnes per month which per year means 25.5 million tonnes. This indicates the trade through Dublin Port, the country's largest port, is bottoming out. In other words, we may not sink much further. I was not indicating that we were at the bottom.

Was the 2008 tonnage figure 28 million tonnes?

Mr. Enda Connellan

No, it was 29 million tonnes.

The projection of 25.5 million tonnes for this year is a reduction of 10% on the company's highest levels.

Mr. Enda Connellan

No, it will be approximately a 17% reduction. Our highest year was 2007 but it is bottoming out.

The city council has several good statements in the Dublin city development plan. One is to support the development of Dublin Port and another is to ensure the city council will protect the industrial lands, most of which are within the port, from alternative uses. These are important objectives and I cannot understand why the council would then want to turn the port area into yuppieville.

The cruise line business is an interesting industry and one which the ports have nurtured for the past 15 years through an organisation called Cruise Ireland. Dublin Port Company holds the chair this year. All ports combine to market Ireland as a destination. Dublin is a marquis port; when it is put on a cruise itinerary, it attracts people as it is the capital. Our research also shows that cruise line visitors like the people of Dublin.

On the mooring location for the cruise liners, people who do not go ashore like to sit watching containers being moved around. In the past 12 years I have heard no complaints from any cruise liner about the current location. I have not heard any demand either for a specific terminal.

I am not offering a personal opinion but just raising an issue that was passed on to me. The individual who raised it with me believed the current location did not do justice to Dublin and Dublin Port.

Mr. Enda Connellan

I have heard that comment from our side of the ship but not from the ship side.

That is interesting. That business is expanding.

Mr. Enda Connellan

I hope I have answered all the questions.

With regard to Clontarf, is there friction with persons in Dublin City Council?

Mr. Enda Connellan

No, I do not think so. I certainly do not personalise things.

We thank the representatives for coming before us. As they are aware, we have met nearly all the port companies now and there are only two or three to go. We will draw up our report on what we see. In the second to last paragraph of the presentation, it was stated that Mr. Connellan believed the ports never got a fair crack of the whip with regard to the infrastructure needs of the country. Will he explain this comment? Mr. Connellan clearly believes they are the poor relation in all the infrastructure projects.

On invitation, some members of this committee visited Dublin Port and at that stage infill was the major issue. I can only speak for myself, but I was convinced on that day that it is in the best interests of Dublin Port that the project go ahead. In the event that it does not proceed, what will happen to the port? Will Mr. Connellan give some indication of how bad a decision it will be if, for example, An Bord Pleanála decides to refuse the planning application?

Mr. Enda Connellan

If it does not go ahead and Dublin Port Company remains constituted as it is currently, it will not be good for the company. That is not the main issue. Dublin Port Company does not create demand but rather responds, so we see ourselves as facilitators of trade. If goods must be landed further from the city, which is the main consumer of the goods, it will drive up the cost of goods and decrease competitiveness in the country. That is the main negative that will result.

What about infrastructure? Why does Mr. Connellan think the ports have been forgotten?

Mr. Enda Connellan

I am not talking about Dublin Port in particular but the ports in general. They do not seem to have the same profile as airports. We have one big airport in the country and many very small airports but they seem to attract much greater attention than ports.

Whose fault is that?

Mr. Enda Connellan

Perhaps it is our own.

Several years ago we visited Dublin Port and one of the major issues for the port was leases. From the file given to us I have a map of the port submitted at that stage and it showed a significant area of the port on pretty long-term leases. Is that still an area of concern? The witnesses would have inherited this organisation of the port lands, particularly as it relates to maximisation of the land we have already and irrespective of what happens on the Tolka. Has more work been done in the area or have safeguards been created? Does this House need to produce any more legislation to assist the port in that regard? What is happening with the leases?

Mr. Enda Connellan

In August 1994 the board made a decision not to lease land close to the water. Since the production of the Deputy's map we have regained control — not leased — all of the ro-ro lands except for two acres. That would have returned approximately 50 acres to direct control of the company. We continue to do this and as late as last Friday we gained control of another four acres of land. It is a continuing process and a complete reversal.

At the moment what percentage of the 250 hectares would be alienated in long leases?

Mr. Enda Connellan

I cannot give the number off the top of my head but I can furnish the committee with those figures.

We sincerely thank the representatives. Representatives of Galway Port will come before us next. We thank Mr. Connellan for his attendance.

Sitting suspended at 4.45 p.m. and resumed at 4.47 p.m.
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