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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT debate -
Wednesday, 20 Jan 2010

Impact of Recent Bad Weather on Transport Infrastructure: Discussion.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome the Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, and his officials, Mr. Pat Mangan, Ms Doreen Keaney and Mr. Dominic Mullaney. Members have agreed to try to get through business as quickly as possible. This meeting was not previously on our agenda and I accept that people have busy schedules. With everyone's co-operation, I hope to conclude our business by approximately 3.45 p.m. We will commence with a short presentation from the Minister and this will be followed by a question and answer session.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to discuss the impact on transport of the recent severe weather and the response to it. I wish to convey my sincere thanks, and that of Government, to all those people in public bodies who worked hard to respond to the recent prolonged period of severe weather. Particular thanks are due to front-line staff in local authorities, public transport companies and others who kept roads open, bus and rail services running and the airports open, by and large. They worked long hours in difficult conditions and they are a true example of what public service means. I thank the NRA, particularly for its role in sourcing and management of salt stocks when that became a problem in the latter part of December. I also thank the Garda, Defence Forces, HSE and Civil Defence staff who made an excellent contribution. While the severe weather brought out many people complaining about what was being done, it also brought out many individuals and community and voluntary organisations who played an invaluable role during the period by helping elderly neighbours to clear snow and ice, visiting housebound neighbours to ensure they had food and heat and manning telephone helplines.

Finally, I thank the members of the national emergency co-ordination group, in particular, Mr. Seán Hogan, the chairman, who has given the State sterling service during both the recent severe weather and the earlier flooding. As national director of fire and emergency management in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and chairman of the group that prepared the major emergency management framework, he is uniquely qualified to chair the national co-ordination group. The office of local authority management provided very effective liaison between the co-ordinating group and local authorities.

The cold weather started on 17 December and lasted until the middle of last week. It was characterised by extremely low temperatures over a long period, with a widespread incidence of snow and ice. Thankfully, such prolonged periods of cold weather are extremely rare. The last such occurrences in Ireland were the winters of 1963 and 1978-79. We had a blizzard and lower temperatures in January 1982 which caused widespread disruption but the thaw set in within a week. The winter of 1947 was both severe and of long duration. I am told by my father that the winter of 1933 was even worse with snow in May. It should be clear, therefore, that such prolonged severely cold weather is extremely rare and it is my understanding that climate change will not increase the frequency of such prolonged extreme cold.

I hope we can use this meeting to have a constructive discussion on what went right during the recent severe weather, what lessons we can learn and what changes we need to make to address these lessons. The national co-ordinating committee has commenced a review of the response and I hope the discussion will provide a positive and constructive contribution to that essential review work.

The first question I want to consider is what went well. By and large, our national roads, other key strategic roads and public transport routes, totalling 14,000 km, were kept open for traffic over the 24 days that this severe weather lasted. I acknowledge driving conditions were sometimes difficult but this is a natural consequence of severe weather. These roads carry an estimated 60% of total traffic and approximately 80% of commercial traffic. With careful driving, most of our secondary road network remained passable through the period, with limited exceptions, particularly in upland areas. Road and footpath conditions were difficult and dangerous where iced over but most people were able to get about as they needed to, albeit perhaps more slowly.

The majority of Dublin Bus services continued to operate throughout the period. A small number of services did not operate and there were curtailments of varying scale but a good service was provided on the core network. The exception to this was the evening of 6 January where services were withdrawn because of poor road conditions and concerns for passenger and driver safety. Bus Éireann operated the majority of its services. There were local cancellations and some services were delayed or curtailed. The websites of both companies provided excellent, regularly updated information on service impacts. Irish Rail and Luas services were largely unaffected and additional capacity was provided where possible.

Food and fuel supplies were maintained. The emergency services continued to operate, though response times were affected. Assistance from the Defence Forces was required on a number of occasions to access people in need of help. Hospitals continued to function effectively, though some elective procedures were postponed due to the poor weather and the increased incidence of weather-related accidents.

While the general picture is positive, I acknowledge there were individual instances of hardship caused by the extended cold spell, which lasted three and a half weeks. Many people suffered falls on ice, resulting in fractures, sprains and other injuries. While the frost and snow is becoming a memory for many, the injured have a legacy of the severe weather. Many, particularly older people, were housebound and some people were cut off. A number of areas and individual households were left without water or with reduced pressure, even more so as the thaw set in. Farmers and others working outdoors faced major difficulties as the cold weather became more severe with the passing days.

I refer to the lessons we can learn from this experience. Both central and local government have begun a review of their response to the effects of the severe weather to ascertain what changes are required for the future and to learn from those many examples of best practice. We will examine the timing of the activation of the emergency co-ordination structures to establish if earlier activation would have materially affected the response at an operational level. We will also review the effectiveness of those structures, once activated. We will urgently review the priorities for gritting of roads. Currently, the priorities are national roads and other roads that carry significant traffic volumes, including heavy goods vehicles and public transport services. In all, 14,000 km. of road were gritted every day and sometimes twice or three times a day over the 24 days. More than 261 gritting trucks and 180 snow ploughs were deployed during the severe weather, often late at night and early morning. Approximately 60,000 tonnes of salt was spread over the period, more than the total annual average use in recent years.

It will never be practical to grit all 96,000 km of our public road network, which is extensive by European standards. We currently grit over 14% of that network and it is unlikely to be justifiable to increase this substantially. However, we can examine whether there are ways of harnessing community effort by, for example, local authorities supplying salt to local communities and business districts. This would involve additional cost for the taxpayer at a time of severe constraints on public finances and may not be justified given the infrequent incidence of prolonged severe weather. I welcome comments from the committee on that. Given the biggest legacy of the cold are the people injured in falls on ice, I would also welcome the views of the committee on the imposition of a statutory obligation on householders and businesses in urban areas to clear snow and ice from footpaths outside their premises without incurring any liability for negligence. While, similar to the national primary roads, local authority staff were deployed to clear the busiest footpaths in urban areas, it is not practical for them to clear all the footpaths in urban areas. Dublin city alone has 2,500 km of footpaths.

Local authorities typically maintain ten days' supply of salt for gritting the prioritised roads and this is more than adequate for most years. Cold spells of this long duration are rare. Nevertheless, we will consider the costs and benefits of maintaining a supply to cover a longer period. This would involve more expenditure on salt supplies and salt barns to protect it. Members might like to consider whether this warrants higher priority than other road maintenance expenditure because this will come out of the roads budget.

We will look at how public information was handled and what can be improved. Local authorities made very effective use of local and community radio. The public transport websites were excellent and regularly up to date. Some local authority websites provided detailed road gritting maps. The RSA was very helpful in getting out targeted road safety messages. We will seek to build on those best practice examples and identify any information gaps or failures.

I am conscious that both the NRA and local authorities have, and will continue to incur, significant additional expenditure as a direct result of this prolonged severe weather. My Department does not have an emergency financial reserve. We allocate all the road grants we get from the Exchequer, but advise local authorities to set aside contingency sums within their overall roads funding for weather related works. Local authorities and the NRA are calculating the additional costs involved over and above the normal provision.

I will assess this when deciding on the allocation of regional and local road grants, as will the NRA in respect of national roads. It may be necessary to change priorities in the 2010 allocations, taking account of the financial resources available to me. I look forward to hearing the constructive views and suggestions of the committee.

It is nice to see everybody here. It is a calm, mild day — not as forecast last week — so it will be a constructive meeting. I wish to endorse everything the Minister said concerning the work that was carried out by everybody. I would like to think, however, that we will learn a lesson from what happened. I come from a farming background and I am 53 years of age. I have seen this before and we all knew it would happen again. From Friday, 18 December, we were given daily warnings. It was the main item on the news every day. If I had not witnessed the number of young and old people who ended up spending Christmas in Navan hospital, as happened in other hospitals across the country, I would not have been so annoyed by the lack of response from the Government. It was notified of what was happening the following week through every Department, local authority and by the general public, including members of the Government parties. We all knew there was a shortage of salt, as our local authorities said on local radio stations. It was not until Thursday, 7 January when even the bicycle lanes in Dublin were closed that somebody came out say they were taking charge.

I understand that everybody has to take a break. I also understand that everyone cannot be at the end of a telephone 24 hours a day. Last year was a great one for road safety. The Minister knows that every ounce of support that could be given was provided by Fine Gael in that respect. However, I do not understand how the Department of Transport and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government could close down from 18 December until 7 January. People suffered as a result. There was a lift in spending after the budget, but the whole thing was brought crashing down during the first week of January because people could not get out to spend. They have now gone back indoors again, so that goodwill expenditure has gone.

I do not understand why telephones were not diverted to people in charge. Why were those people not watching the weather forecasts like everyone else in the country, including farmers? Northern Ireland has 50,000 tonnes of salt stocks annually, while we only have 50,000 tonnes for 26 counties. It was not until Thursday, 7 January that the National Roads Authority was asked to source salt. Perhaps somebody here can confirm that. Salt was available in Europe at €47 per tonne. If that had been done a week earlier, many of our businesses may not have suffered as much as they did. Some 7,500 people ended up in hospital with broken limbs. Some surgeons said the injuries were worse than those sustained in car accidents.

Can the Minister explain why the Department of Transport did not get involved earlier? Why did the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government send out a stupid message to reporters and some Deputies that Fine Gael was in charge of local authorities? Local authorities can only work with the moneys they are given. This was an emergency. The Government proved that when the Taoiseach and two of his Ministers came out on 7 January, three weeks later.

We must ensure that proper stockpiles of salt are in place because the bad weather will come again. It could come back in two weeks. We have to re-examine all this talk about global warming. I do not know how many rural roads the Minister travels in County Meath or elsewhere, but at the moment they are impassable. No local authorities are currently in a position to bring those roads back to an acceptable standard, as required by the public and the business community.

Last week was the most horrendous one in this country for damage to cars across the country as a result of the freezing conditions. There is no point waiting until next autumn. The Minister must give local authorities immediate funding; otherwise, every business might as well close down. Where was everybody between Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve? Why did it take until 7 January for somebody to respond?

It is total nonsense to state that nobody was available.

There was nobody, so that is not a nonsensical statement.

It is a nonsensical statement.

The Minister, without interruption.

It is a grave insult to the 3,000 or 3,500 people who were on the front line, working for local authorities, the National Roads Authority and various other services from 18 December onwards.

The Minister is the boss.

They did not just walk in and decide they were going to do this work. There was a plan in place.

There was no plan. The country knows that.

The Minister, without interruption.

There was a plan, which was being well executed by local authorities acting on their own behalf on local roads and on behalf of the NRA. Just because Deputy McEntee might have been off from 18 December to 7 January does not mean that nobody was working. He is being most unfair to everybody concerned.

I am not being unfair.

The Deputy will know that in County Meath the roads were gritted every morning, and twice on some occasions. I do not mind constructive suggestions or criticism, but nonsensical statements and stupid stunts designed to get headlines do not add anything to this particular debate.

People will catch the Minister out at the polls.

As regards the Deputy's point, the Department of Transport did not close down from 18 December to 7 January. The shortage of salt was identified on 28 December. At various times and in many cases, local authorities were co-operating with one another on the problems that arose. The NRA was asked to source extra salt supplies and got them on 8 January. In December 2009, it got a delivery of 25,000 tonnes of salt. In the week to 28 December, it got 7,000 tonnes. The week commencing 14 January it got 20,000 tonnes delivered and distributed. Up to the week commencing on 11 January, there were 10,000 tonnes of salt. Therefore, the total amount of salt delivered throughout the country up to 17 January was 62,000 tonnes. That was more than expected and more than was originally envisaged would be needed. The shortage was identified on 28 December and not 7 January and action was taken. The NRA was then asked on 7 January to co-ordinate the distribution of salt to ensure that it went to the places it was most needed.

I agree with the Deputy on one matter. I have adverted to the fact that plans need to be put in place for footpaths, particularly those in towns and cities. The local authorities rightly have the priorities they have, but it was very difficult for people. That was everybody's experience. We will talk to representatives of the local authorities about that matter. I would be interested in the views of the committee as to whether we should remove any doubt. I am told there is no doubt. However, perhaps we should positively legislate for making people responsible for keeping the footpaths outside their own premises clear. It is something that will need to be considered without any liability if somebody has an accident.

Is there a problem about the length of time salt can be stored?

It can be kept for a least a year but not much longer than that. The comparison between Northern Ireland and ourselves——

Chairman,——

I will let the Deputy back in later.

I have one question and I will not come back in. Was the NRA first asked to source salt on 7 January?

On 28 December.

Was that the first day it was asked to source salt?

No, it was extra salt on 28 December.

When did the national emergency committee first meet?

It was on 7 January.

The NRA clearly stated it was not instructed to source salt until that date.

What day?

First, I thank the staff of the 34 local authorities from the managers down who worked hard in very difficult circumstances over that fortnight of utter chaos. For some of them, it followed on from the continuing flooding disaster in many parts of the country. I have some issues with the work done on New Year's Eve and New Year's Day in Dublin and the mid-Leinster counties and also what happened on the horrendous evening of Wednesday, 6 January.

My basic point relates to the Minister's responsibility. Is it not fair to say that most of the public are incandescent with anger over his performance or lack of performance during this crisis when our transport system was on the verge of collapse? Some 10,000 people have been in hospital with fractures, one of them one of our old colleagues, the former Minister of State, Mr. Tom Parlon. As the Minister rightly said, they will carry those injuries — sort of Dempsey fractures — for many years and are incredibly angry. The Taoiseach, the Minister for Transport and the entire Government went AWOL at a time of great crisis.

I have before me a document entitled A Framework for Major Emergency Management. I believe this document was prepared by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government for dealing with major emergencies. Under the main heading Co-ordination Arrangements, it lists, among others, the following sub-headings: The Lead Agency Concept; Exercising the Co-ordination Role; Decision-Making Mandates; Delivering the Co-ordination Role; On-Site Co-ordination; Local Co-ordination Groups; and Crisis Management Teams. Minister, you clearly never read that document and you have no interest in it.

The Deputy must address his remarks through the Chair.

Has the Minister for Transport ever read the document, A Framework for Major Emergency Management? It seems quite clear that he has not. He was not around at the height of this crisis, which was a very serious crisis for the country. I have acknowledged that he works hard and is entitled to a break. However, the point is that he had not set in place any kind of co-ordination measures on the Tuesday before the worst day of the crisis. He knew from weather forecasts what we were facing into.

I believe the Minister wrote to the local authorities in mid-December. He had long-range weather forecasts for extreme weather conditions in December and January. We were scheduled to have this weather belt from the north east over the country and over the whole of north-western Europe. At that stage, on approximately 17 or 18 December, did he ask them if they had enough grit and salt to deal with weather conditions similar to 1981, those in 1963 in the Minister's father's time or in 1933? Did he do anything at all at that stage? It looks as if he did not.

As my colleague has said, the national emergency committee definitely met for the first time under the unfortunate and hapless lost cause, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley. Why did that committee not meet in late December? Why was there not a meeting, for example, on New Year's Eve? On New Year's Eve and New Year's Day we had very grim and dangerous driving conditions throughout the mid-Leinster region. During the crisis I spent time in all the Dublin local authority areas and most of the counties around about them. Once one went off an "R" road one was in dire straits. The Minister for Transport had the cheek to say they got on all right — just more slowly. As I said, as far as we know, 10,000 of them were injured. Many senior citizens were trapped in their houses. There was no gritting of roads in urban housing estates or roads leading off the "R" roads in rural areas. People were trapped and the Minister left them in that desolate situation.

The former Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Noel Ahern, who is here with us, was dismissed by the Government along with a group of other Ministers of State. There is now no Minister of State in the Department of Transport. Should the Department of Transport, one of the most important Departments, not have a Minister of State at the very least?

In a recent article Tom Clonan wrote: "In the realm of emergency planning, inaction or delayed responses are defined as risk multipliers and damage multipliers." Was the failure to call the emergency response committee for a full week not a multiplier of the damage that could happen? It was an incredible dereliction of duty. Most people felt that not just the Minister for Transport, but the Taoiseach himself, should have fronted that response.

On the Monday of the crisis my party leader, Deputy Gilmore, and I asked for a national weather emergency. That was two days before the famous Wednesday. We wanted the Defence Forces to be brought in, and Fine Gael made the same suggestion. We wanted local authority funding to be loosened to enable local authorities to respond adequately and get the extra supplies of grit and whatever they needed. At that stage the Government had not made the announcement of the local authority grants for 2010. Even at this stage the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, has not told the local authorities what they will get for road maintenance. All he has done is warn them that repairing the roads will take €150 million. Like my colleagues, I am inundated with letters from Labour Party councillors, including Councillor Willie Quinn from Borris in County Carlow. Half of the roads around Borris have collapsed and he rightly wants to know what the Minister of Transport will do about that and how he will help the local authorities. However, the Minister has still not even announced those grants. We asked for additional measures, including increasing the fuel allowance and that the local authorities should be allowed to mobilise agencies within their own remit and use every conceivable means of communication to get the message across.

However one looks at it, the basic point is that the Minister for Transport ignored A Framework for Major Emergency Management. The entire Government went AWOL. Nobody was in charge until poor unfortunate Minister, Deputy John Gormley, appeared on the afternoon on 7 January when, at long last, there was a governmental response to the crisis. The Minister's performance was deplorable and, sadly, in many countries, it would be a resignation issue.

I am not sure there were many questions in that contribution. There was a lot of political hoo-ha as usual. I reject the contention, as I did previously, that the transport system was on the verge of collapse. That is an unfair representation of the great efforts made by local authorities and public transport companies. Airports operated extensively during the spell, unlike in other countries that experienced similar conditions. I am familiar with the framework for major emergencies. I have read it and the Deputy should also read it. He might then be a little more informed.

The Minister did not put it into practice.

It was used in practice. It states the initial response for severe weather conditions should be provided by local authorities and they responded. They continued to respond during the period.

With regard to co-ordination with other Departments, I was in my office on 4 January. We had a discussion with officials. We arranged a consultation later that day between ourselves and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on the weather situation and the indications we had, which was that the bad weather would continue with cold nights and dry and sunny days with scattered snow showers. An interdepartmental meeting was held on 5 January and the response of the various authorities at that stage was examined, including how the local authorities and the NRA were coping and so on, and it was agreed it would meet again as necessary.

The Taoiseach decided after difficulties arose on 6 January because of the severe deterioration in the weather, which was not predicted on the Monday or Tuesday, to put in place——

The Minister is misleading the committee.

The Minister, without interruption.

We knew what would happen on the Wednesday. We were all trying to get ready for it. We knew the day before there would be a major snowfall in the east.

The Deputy will have an opportunity to contribute again later.

According to the Deputy, we knew a month in advance this weather system was on the way but according to everything I heard at every meeting of the emergency committee I attended, the maximum period for which Met Éireann can give a reliable weather forecast is one week in advance.

This weather system was forecast.

I received a weather forecast on Thursday, 7 January, which stated there would be snow showers the following Saturday and continuous snowfalls on Sunday and Monday and that did not happen. The snow fell on Saturday but there was a thaw on Sunday. I do not know how the Deputy can make a claim that he has a means of forecasting the weather a month in advance. He might let the rest of us know in order that we will know the next time.

Why did the Minister write to the local authorities? He did not do his job.

We are reflecting the anger of the public over the past month. I took 100 telephone calls a day from people who were confined to their houses for up to four weeks. Snow fell in the west on 17 and 18 December and all the regional roads were not cleared. The road, between Boyle and Castlerea, two major towns in County Roscommon, was only cleared last week, four weeks after the snow fell. I cannot understand why the national co-ordination committee did not meet until three weeks into this emergency. People down the country are annoyed that the committee only sat after Dublin was affected by the weather, despite the number of car accidents and other weather-related accidents resulting in people being hospitalised and businesses being unable to open. The country was in a mess and people are angry that they were neglected. They pay motor tax and the roads were not gritted.

Every time I have contacted local authority officials over the past six years, I have been informed they are doing courses on a development plan but there was no such plan or an emergency plan. The Minister said there is an emergency plan but he should try to tell that to the people who were confined to their houses for four weeks. They will not accept that.

I was asked by a representative of Roscommon County Council to e-mail the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, which I did on 29 December, to ask if it could intervene to source salt from Northern Ireland because there was insufficient salt available to clear the national primary routes in counties Roscommon and Leitrim. The reply stated that the Department was closed during the Christmas period and Roscommon County Council was controlled by Fine Gael. However, it is controlled by Fianna Fáil and Independent councillors but the issue is that it was an insult to the people of the west to bring politics into this. The local authorities in the region worked hard but there was no national co-ordination. Officials were worried about funding because if they ran out of funding, they would have no money for summer works. The Government has strangled local authorities through a lack of finance.

We should consider taking sand out of quarries and harnessing local communities, as the Minister correctly said. Many agricultural contractors in the UK use their equipment every winter to spread sand and so on. The local authorities worked hard. However, one Monday morning, I observed three local authority workers standing on the back of a lorry, which is contrary to health and safety legislation. I commend them but one would not experience such a lack of resources in a Third World country. We should be ashamed of ourselves. The Government did not react and the anger of people is plain to be seen. The national co-ordination committee did not meet until 7 January and that is an insult to people who had been confined to their houses for three weeks at that stage. The country is suffering from cabin fever. There was a lack of leadership and no excuse will hide the fact that the Government did not deliver for the people.

If the Minister and the Department thought we would have three or four more weeks of this weather, they would have handled the emergency entirely differently. Huge lessons must be learned. I agree with Deputy Feighan that somehow or another the only time both the media and the authorities in particular take note is when the snowflakes fall on Dublin. We had a horrendous time around Christmas. My background is in farming. We were absolutely frozen. I wish to make my point in a non-technical way. We have no great trouble operating on the roads, in farming or the commercial life if the levels of frost are no more than -5° Celsius or -6° Celsius. It is when one gets down to -11° Celsius or -12° Celsius that the huge disaster starts.

I do not wish to go over all of the ground in this regard but the most chilling aspect of what the Minister had to say today was in the second last paragraph of his speech where he referred to the fact that his Department does not have an emergency financial reserve. Whatever about apportioning blame, the one thing we know is that we have thousands of miles of the worst road surface that we ever had in this country.

The last point I will make relates to something that I have never seen in more than 30 years in public life. Sometimes one sees the skin of the road affected, namely, the tar. In a bad time the underlay will be affected, but because the frost went right down into the ground, the clay has now come to the surface. One finds speckles of clay all over this country on the regional roads. That has never been seen before. I put it to the Minister that no matter how he massages the figures, there are 6,250 km of county roads in my county of Galway. It has been estimated that it could require €30 million to bring them to a stage where they are useable and safe. That is just one county. If one replicates that around the country, the Minister will have some idea of the sort of bill that will be presented to him. For every month and year that those roads are not addressed, the deterioration will be so bad that the cost of fixing them in a couple of years will have risen tenfold.

County managers from counties around Dublin will appear before the committee later today. I assume they will speak in a similar vein. A major problem arises in terms of what is required in the future. I do not think we have had to contend with such a situation in the past 50 years. I would like to hear some indication from the Minister of where the funding will come from.

I ask the remaining members to be brief. I will allow the Minister to respond. I endorse the point made by Deputy Connaughton, not just because it relates to Galway. The biggest difficulty I see is that tarring and chipping is the greatest possible waste of money. I have seen roads in Connemara that have had significant surface dressing done on them two months before Christmas and they are now the worst parts of the road. It is a total waste of money. It is also a waste of money to send out local authority workers with a shovel on the back of a lorry to throw a couple of shovelfuls of gravel and a bit of tar into a pothole. One may as well put it out on the tide. I endorse what Deputy Connaughton has said. Money should be spent on patching those potholes properly with tarmacadam. It will cost more money but at least the job will be done and it will not have to be done again in a couple of week's time. That is what is happening time and time again. I endorse his point in that respect; it is a complete waste of money not to do the job properly. If more money is needed to do a proper job, it should be spent.

On the latter point, in terms of the damage done to the roads, it is well recognised that much damage has been done. Deputy Connaughton's description is a fairly accurate one of various places. I would be interested to get the reports from local authorities also to see how roads that were addressed in the restoration programme in the past ten years have stood up. From my observation in different parts of the country with which I am familiar it seems that a lot of that work has held fairly well but where one has just tar and chippings and very little foundation, they have disintegrated.

Local authorities are going to face a dilemma. We know the condition of some roads. Members and local public representatives will be contacting local authorities to do something about particular roads. This is not the time of year to carry out good jobs on the road. However, if it is not done, members will be getting on to local authorities to do such work. Some temporary work will have to be carried out by local authorities. I will ask them to be as efficient and effective as they possibly can.

From the contacts I have had with them, many of the local authorities are already taking whatever action they can to repair the badly damaged roads. In order to facilitate them we are contacting them to advise them to prioritise the works this year on roads that were damaged in the recent adverse weather. That applies to the floods as well as to the more dangerous frost and, as the Chairman and Deputy Connaughton have pointed out, much of the difficulty was because the cold spell lasted as long as it did. The frost went very deep into the ground and that is what caused the problems.

We are asking local authorities to do that work. We are authorising them to spend up to 25% of last year's allocation immediately, wisely we hope, because money is scarce. We have our budget fixed for the year. They can do that immediately and they have the authorisation to do it under the restoration improvement grant, the discretionary maintenance grant, the discretionary improvement grant and the special block grant. Usually they can only spend approximately 10% of that budget before they get their allocations but they are being authorised to spend up to 25% of last year's allocation.

We are also allowing them and suggesting to them that they should quickly examine their intended 2010 restoration improvement programme to see whether it needs to be revised in light of the damage that has been done. There is no magic formula that I can produce. No pot of gold is available. We are all conscious of financial constraints and we are supposed to be fiscally careful at this stage. I have to operate, and I must ask the local authorities to operate, within the allocation I have. If I get more money I would be delighted to send it on to local authorities but I have not got it. I have a total of €411 million. I am asking local authorities to ensure that they use it on the damaged roads.

I do not want to be in a position where people are asking me whether this or that road will be done. The proper people to make those decisions are the local authorities. I suggest that this year in particular the engineering staff of local authorities would make those decisions. I do not want the situation to arise where money allocated is divided up politically, irrespective of where the most damage is evident. The work should be prioritised to the areas that have suffered most.

I am conscious that everyone is under severe financial difficulties. Local authorities have had their normal grants cut, although they have had the opportunity to keep 65% of the savings on wages plus the tax on second homes. Some local authorities in particular will have to provide more money from their own resources to show that they are serious about the issue. The average is approximately 25% but some local authorities spend less than half of that. Members will have to take some responsibility and make serious decisions in that area.

There are four speakers offering and we have come to the end of the time allowed.

I did not get a reply to my question. Why did it take the national emergency response co-ordination committee so long to meet? It did not sit until three weeks after the snow fell.

If one were to call on the committee to sit because of a few nights of frost, it would be in permanent session. There would be wind on another occasion, and so on. The work that was being done by the NRA and local authorities throughout the period in question was deemed——

The Minister's arrogance is incredible.

There are four Deputies who have not had an opportunity to contribute.

There was a week during which one could not drive a car, cycle or walk. What is the Minister talking about? His comment is ridiculous. It is like the response of the Government of Haiti.

The Deputy should withdraw that remark. There is no comparison to Haiti. To suggest the situation in Haiti is any way comparable to what went on here does a disservice to the people in Haiti.

The point I am making is that the Minister is ignoring a week of suffering.

I call Deputy Fergus O'Dowd. If it is okay with members, I must leave to attend a short meeting. Deputy Connaughton will take the Chair. I ask the four members to be brief.

The Chairman is aware that another transport crisis is being discussed with the Minister in the Dáil at 3.45 p.m.

It is Deputy Broughan who is holding up the meeting. I call Deputy O'Dowd.

Deputy Paul Connaughton took the Chair.

The absence of political accountability on the part of the Government and its failure to accept responsibility are the issues being raised by the public. Nobody was in charge. Although the local authorities, the NRA and the meteorological service at the airport were involved, there was nobody taking political responsibility for what was happening. That is the major criticism. My colleague, Deputy Frank Feighan, is correct that it took far too long for the national emergency response committee to meet. There was nobody in charge. One reason is that accountability for roads has shifted from Minister to Minister and now lies with the NRA. The facts are that the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, which was responsible for all our roads, shifted responsibility to the Department of Transport under the Minister, Deputy Dempsey. The latter has shifted responsibility for regional and local roads to the NRA. Effectively, there is now no Oireachtas Member politically accountable for the state of our roads. This is a direct result of Government decision making.

The Minister may argue that by making the NRA accountable in respect of dealing with local authorities, he is obtaining better value for money on the grounds that him doing so addresses the cost issues about which he is concerned. The fact is that he, or his colleagues in Government, ran away from this issue. I am not referring to the Minister taking his holiday. There was nobody in charge and, as Deputy Broughan said, thousands of people ended up in hospital. That is the key issue. Will the Minister return responsibility for local and regional roads to his Department? If he does not, we will be told every question we put to him on this matter, and every issue we wish to raise at this committee, is not a matter for the line Minister but for the NRA. This is not good enough.

The Taoiseach said in the Dáil yesterday that local authorities will have to fix the roads with the resources they have and that he has no special funding for them. This is disgraceful. The facts are that the Minister for Transport, in last year's budget, cut the allocation for the repair of regional and local roads by €135 million. Local authorities are starved of resources and there is absolutely no money to do the work that must be done routinely. Local authorities are now being faced with roads that are more like the rutted roads in Uganda and other Third World countries with no infrastructure than the roads we ought to have. We want the Minister to accept accountability for the desperate state in which he has left the local authorities.

I ask the remaining members to be brief.

I welcome the Minister, the county managers and their staff. I pay tribute to all the front line staff. We were sending men out in gritters at 4 a.m. on roads that the rest of us considered too dangerous to travel on. All the criticisms that were bandied about in respect of Ministers and county managers were unfounded. We should pay tribute to them and recognise that they did a fantastic job. By and large, Fingal County Council and Dublin City Council, of which I have knowledge, did a fantastic job on all the major roads. We should recognise this.

At what stage did we decide the sand grit was not effective? Do we still consider this to be the case?

With regard to the insurance implications of clearing footpaths, as referred to by the Minister, we must move fast to bring about a change in the law, if necessary. From my background in insurance, I believe a change is necessary. If people had asked me, as an insurance adviser, whether they were leaving themselves exposed by clearing their footpaths, I would have said they were on the basis of information received from insurance companies. There is work to be done to have the insurance companies change their house policies and public liability policies and to change the law. When this work is done, the position will be crystal clear and businesspeople will be able to clear the footpaths outside their premises.

With regard to using resources to better effect, the environmental services staff in the councils, the litter collecters, should have been utilised to clear footpaths. The case was put to me, reasonably, that there was no necessity to have people employed to pick litter off footpaths when they were covered in two or three inches of snow. We should learn a lesson from this.

By and large, I agree with Deputy Paul Connaughton that the roads are in a bad state of disrepair. When council reports are issued, the Government will have to be reasonable and allocate money. Nobody is suggesting money falls out of the sky. We clearly know it does not considering that we are borrowing €400 million per week. However, the reality is that we need to repair our roads to their original state to ensure safety and the continuation of commercial activity. If this committee does anything, it should, when it learns from the county managers the cost of rectifying the problem, recommend strongly that the Government allocate money.

I have three points. The Minister referred to legislation ordering people to clear the snow. I always believed there was such legislation or at least local authority by-laws. If there is any doubt about this, it needs to addressed quickly. I was amazed, particularly from 7 January to 9 January, at the circumstances that obtained. I am not necessarily referring to householders but to the Government offices, shops and huge retail outlets. Staff were inside gawking out windows at people falling and breaking their necks and nobody had the cop-on to throw somebody a shovel to clear the footpaths. If legislation is required, it should be introduced quickly. It should apply to all and be enforced. I presume we will use our intelligence and not summons some widow first. There are plenty of businesses with able-bodied people that could be targeted first.

Emergency plans and committees are marvellous when they get going. I observed at city level that if somebody rings up and says there is a train or plane crash or an earthquake and that 20 are dead, it is believed that somebody can press a button and a fantastic plan will fall into place. If there is snowfall or if a river is rising, with the potential to cause trouble the following morning, everyone says he or she cannot press the button and that one should wait until ten are dead. While plans are marvellous, we should consider who presses the button to implement them.

We must learn from our experience. We may have been lulled into a false sense of security by many mild winters. We might believe too much of this airy-fairy global warming stuff. Such thinking may have permeated Departments and budget heads.

The Copenhagen summit tried to sort it out in one week.

It was a public relations disaster. They should have been in Khartoum where it was 50 degrees Celsius. There are always lessons to be learned. We should learn them in this case.

I do not want to be repetitive but the roads are in a dangerous condition. There is an encumbrance on all concerned to ensure they are returned not just to a working order but the level they were at before the inclement weather. It is not adequate to say it should be done on a step by step basis. It is important for tourism and the future development of the country that the roads are in a good state. I am disappointed by but not surprised at hearing the usual political remarks today. The snow and frost were not the fault of any politician or party. All that is required is to acknowledge the depth of the damage the inclement weather caused.

I welcome the Minister's statement on the necessity for local authorities to prioritise the work that has to be done. We have heard much from the Opposition about the need to move away from centralised government and give more powers to local authorities, yet they want to absolve county councils from their responsibility in this case. There is a necessity to prioritise the work which county councils are prepared to do. I spoke to the Clare county manager who is doing this already in conjunction with his engineers. Many county managers have said the immediate problem is not resources but that they have to audit the extent of the damage caused to the road network. Only then will they be able to see if they can tackle it with the resources they have available. Some road beautification works that might normally be done annually should not be done this year. If the funding for these works has to be used to get roads back to the level they need to be at, so be it. If there is a shortfall after councils remove such beautification projects from their road maintenance lists, will the Minister consider giving them additional moneys? I know he does not have it in the Vote but there may be a need for the re-prioritisation of the Department's budget to fund this essential component. I am sure it would be possible to find the necessary resources.

For the future, we need to be able to mobilise a greater number of people in communities. It is not feasible or possible for county councils to do all the gritting work required. The rural social scheme already has a body of 2,200 workers. Under the direction of the local authorities, they should be in a position to carry out some of the work normally done by council workers in areas of greater population density. There are lessons to be learned. If we get on with it collectively, rather than engage in the usual political sniping, we might deliver a better service for the people we are supposed to represent.

It struck me when talking to a county engineer that he was afraid to grit roads on hills, dangerous stretches and entrances to estates because he was afraid of exposing the council to liability, a legitimate concern. I would have thought we would have exempted the county councils from liability for ordinary negligence in an emergency or severe weather conditions. It is not right that if the councils had the grit they needed, they were afraid for legal reasons to grit important roads not on the gritting map. The issue of householders' liability should also be clarified, as there were many rumours about it. As the media fed many of these rumours without contradiction, perhaps the Government should have explained the matter. In my constituency the R165 in County Louth was gritted but the remainder of it in County Meath was not. It is not necessarily any council's fault, as there is a more extensive road network in County Meath. However, I would have thought maps would be drawn up at national level. It would be better to grit the whole of the regional road or not at all.

Most of the engineers to whom I spoke said money was not the problem but the availability of salt and workers. While Deputy Dooley referred to the rural social scheme, many voluntarily offered their services to their county council. Again, issues of liability arose. We must take it that in rural areas the council will not be able to grit all local roads and that it should avail of services offered by others.

There was much criticism of the Minister for his absence for a period of three days. Deputy McEntee was in charge for Fine Gael and did a fantastic job. As a fellow constituent Deputy, I was proud of him. However, his Fine Gael leaders were conspicuous by their absence from the whole controversy. This point has not been remarked upon but it is valid for a party which sees itself going into government.

I am glad the latter contributions have attempted to be as constructive as possible, which is what committees should be used for.

The question of liability will be examined. During the cold spell this matter was the subject of controversy. If a Minister or a departmental official made a statement that people were not liable, the media produced someone from somewhere else who claimed one could be liable. A doubt was created and people erred on the side of caution. We, therefore, need to establish the position on liability. Local authorities are liable for negligence if they undertake something and do it badly and someone is hurt as a result. They are not liable for nonfeasance, that is, if they do nothing in a particular situation. We need to clarify the matter, one I will take into account.

There is a laid-out strategy for emergency plans which can be local or national. In this case a national emergency was not declared. Local authorities got on with implementing the emergency plans they had in place for severe weather in their localities, working with the NRA and the Government. Owing to a severe weather forecast it was decided the national co-ordinating committee should meet to deal particularly with the availability of salt, with the NRA taking control of its distribution. At one point Dublin City Council shifted 500 staff from one set of duties to footpath gritting duties when needed.

A flexible response is important and correct. If they want, people can make a political point and have a go at me and the Government. If we were to have a similar spell of bad weather, the gritting that was done by the local authorities would be done exactly the same the next time around. The roads that were not gritted this time will not be the next time either because of the prioritisation local authorities have to make based on their resources and manpower. The priority they have is to keep national primary and secondary and important local roads open.

The local authorities need to be constantly reviewing that priority to decide whether it needs to be changed in light of given circumstances. Deputy Byrne's area is a pretty good example. It has changed beyond recognition in the past ten years. I do not know whether Meath County Council took that into account when it last revised its gritting plan for the county. The same is true of any of the county councils. Meath County Council, irrespective of that, does about 450 km either once or twice a day. That is the maximum it can do. It may need to reprioritise, but I take the point that the lesson we need to learn is whether there are ways and means we can extend this workload. The local authorities will not be able to do it themselves, but perhaps it might be done by community effort. The rural social scheme was mentioned by Deputy Timmy Dooley and that certainly has worked very well in many different areas.

In respect of the political point that was made in relation to this, the administration changes I made in respect of local and regional roads have nothing to do with the current condition of the roads or anything else. Accountability for the roads still rests with me. The National Roads Authority is administering——

The National Roads Authority decides where the grants go.

No, it does not; I decide. I am asking the local authorities to take a good look at their priorities. I have told them what they can spend money on and I want them to repair the roads within the budgets they have. They make the submission to the NRA, which does the administration and I sign off on that. Nothing has changed in that regard other than the fact the NRA is responsible for administration.

In that context, the Minister is quoted as saying one of the reasons he is doing that is because the local authorities are not necessarily getting the same value for money. If that is the case, is the Minister not transferring from his Department to the National Roads Authority the responsibility for deciding whether value for money is being achieved, after which he signs off on what it decides? My point is that before this happened the Department of Transport was the accounting body, but now the NRA has that responsibility and not the Minister.

Deputy Frank Fahey resumed the Chair.

The local authorities have the responsibility. Up to last year the norm was for the local authorities to draw up a programme and submit it to the Department. Officials such as Mr. Dominic Mullaney, on my left, go through the submission, contact the local authority, raise questions and so on. Eventually, they come to me with a suggested allocation under the 14 different headings, which number I would like to see reduced, incidentally. I sign off on that.

The only difference now is that instead of it coming to the Department, it will go to the NRA which will make recommendations, but it comes back to me to decide whether I can sign off on it. There can be a vast difference between the unit cost of restoration, maintenance or whatever between the cheapest local authority and the most expensive. The NRA, which will have all these data centralised will be able to advise a particular local authority on average costs, query deviations therefrom and make suggestions as to how the costs may be reduced. That is the point about costs as referred to by the Deputy. Ultimately, the buck stops with me in relation to the allocations. The buck stops with the local authorities in terms what they prioritise.

On Deputy Dooley's point about beautification projects and so on, I am sure the local authorities will accept that the money this year must be spent on restoring the roads and ensuring they are passable.

On that note, I thank the Minister and his officials for attending. We shall go straight into the next session. However, I will suspend for a short interval to allow the NRA representatives and the county and city managers to come forward.

Sitting suspended at 3.37 p.m. and resumed at 3.38 p.m.

We are way over time, so I ask everybody to be brief. Again, I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege. The same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee, however. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a manner as to make him or her identifiable.

In the interests of time, I suggest we have a short presentation from Mr. Fred Barry of the NRA followed by two, perhaps, of the county and city managers. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Fred Barry

I thank the committee for the opportunity to appear before it today. I am aware of the number of organisations that are here to speak and the time constraints, so I shall be brief with my opening statement.

The cold weather in the period from shortly before Christmas until late last week was exceptional in terms of duration, the low temperatures and its extent countrywide. It was the worst cold spell on the NRA's records and may have been the most extreme since the early 1960s. This weather gave rise to many challenges in the transportation sector, one of which was keeping the main roads open.

The local authorities which deal with snow and ice as part of their winter maintenance generally succeeded in this objective, at least with regard to national roads. One of the biggest difficulties was that rock salt was in short supply. Irish local authorities cumulatively held about 24,000 tonnes of salt in stockpile in December. This represents about 50% of a normal season's needs. As the extremely cold spell persisted stockpiles diminished and some counties ran quite low. The supply situation deteriorated as all of northern Europe was subjected to this weather system and supplies were short in most countries. We were able to increase supplies modestly, and the local authorities co-operated outstandingly in ensuring no local authority ran out of salt.

The experience in Ireland was similar to that in the UK, Germany, northern France and other countries which typically encounter some snow and ice in winter but not the prolonged very cold spell encountered this year. All of these countries ran short of salt and some overseas local authorities actually ran out of salt completely. All of these countries had major road closures and in some cases, such as in metropolitan Paris, HGVs had to be banned from the roads altogether for periods. We are now about halfway through the winter maintenance season and even in relatively mild weeks thousands of tonnes of salt may be needed. Further shipments of salt are arriving in the coming weeks and once stockpiles are rebuilt, we will bow out of supply and distribution.

We will, of course, continue to operate the ice cast road weather information system, which provides weather temperature information from a network of weather stations around the country. This is a valuable tool in helping decide whether or not intervention to prevent ice build-up is required.

Mr. John Tierney

Mr. Barry has advised on the degree of the cold period. To put it in context, in the city we would have 1,200 km of roadway and 2,400 km of footpath and the roadway in the region measures approximately 4,500 km. The Minister has already referred to the priority in maintaining routes so I will not go through that again.

By way of illustration of the scale of the problem and the demand for resources, in the city our normal stockpile is about 1,300 tonnes. If one takes the period from 2002 to 2007, the average use per annum was approximately 500 tonnes, so we had about a two and a half year supply stock, although last year approximately 850 tonnes was used, primarily because of the snow event in February. However, in the period from 20 December to 11 January, we used almost 1,700 tonnes. The total storage capacity across the region is approximately 3,350 tonnes but the total salt sourced and used over the period amounted to 7,300 tonnes, which was over double what was in stock. This was because of excellent co-operation and the resourcefulness of people in trying to access salt supplies. We want to commend and thank the NRA for its effort and contribution in that regard. As Mr. Barry said, the demand across Europe and the UK in particular was huge and led to eradication of salt stockpiles across Europe.

In the period up to 6 January, roads were gritted every day, including Christmas Day, and up to 35 crews were mobilised across the region. During the very serious snowfall on 6 January — the seriousness of it is measured by the fact the snow froze to ice on contact with the ground — gritting crews were out from afternoon and during the night. I have provided the committee with a more detailed report on that day and the difficulties it caused within the city. The work done by the city council in conjunction with gardaí attempted to maintain the bus fleet in operation but it had to be taken out of operation for the reasons outlined, although limited services were reintroduced after 7 p.m. Again, gritting operations recommenced during the night and resulted in Dublin Bus being able to run an almost normal service the following morning. To give another example, on Friday, 8 January, Fingal County Council had to grit the M1 from the port tunnel exit four times due to the continual icing over of the road.

Much reference has been made to the use of rock salt and it has been asked why we did not use more sand given the problems with supplies. Rock salt is the primary ingredient for dealing with snow and ice and the use of sand is very limited in an urban situation because of the consequences for drainage systems. When the thaw comes, the sand gets washed into the drainage systems and if not removed this can cause blockages and potential flooding later. We had to deal with this issue immediately after the thaw using road-sweepers and we cleaned those areas as quickly as possible. This is why local authorities were sparing in the use of sand in urban areas.

When stocks of rock salt diminished, white salt was secured which was diluted with sand, and while not as effective, it is a better alternative than using sand alone. This is primarily what was used on Friday, 8 and Saturday, 9 January, particularly as the main salt supplies were at that stage being conserved for 10 January, for which very serious snowfall was predicted.

As the Minister said, we redeployed staff from parks, drainage, housing and waste management services to assist roads staff in clearing footpaths after the snowfall on 6 January. That work continued up to 9 January but, again because of the forecast, we did not continue into Sunday because we felt it could have been dangerous and counterproductive. However, the work recommenced on 11 January across all four local authorities and continued until the end of last week. Obviously, there was then a major concentration on clearing frozen snow and ice from gullies to prevent problems arising if the rainfall forecast at that stage had materialised over the following days.

Personally, I was involved as a representative of the County and City Managers Association with the national emergency committee and attended all the meetings from 7 through to 15 January. Again, the issue of Army assistance was raised but, because this was a countrywide issue and Army resources are limited, and given the spread across the entire country of the problem, when rosters were taken into account it was decided it was best to retain Army resources as much as possible to deal with health and rescue services. The help of the Civil Defence volunteers was crucial in terms of helping with hospitals and so on. In our own case, however, we have used the Army resource more recently with the water tankering since the thaw.

With regard to the overall picture in the region, some 35 road gritters were used, 19 of them fitted with snowploughs, treating 1,400 km of roads. Approximately 1,100 staff across the four local authorities were deployed on dealing with footpaths, fixing burst water mains, gully cleaning or otherwise as required.

Were all those staff working between Christmas and the new year?

Mr. John Tierney

No, this is in regard to the footpath situation after 6 January in particular, given the snowfall. The number would have been about 500 and was worked up to about 1,100 over that period in terms of redeployment.

While a major emergency was not called, in effect, the structures that would be used in that regard were in place. One has to remember that with the Dublin city traffic control room, we have a presence there all of the time, 24 hours a day, which is slightly different from other places. I set out the structures that were put in place. We had to deal also with homeless people and while this is not a responsibility of this committee, there was spare capacity every night and nobody was on the street other than by their own volition, and these were very few. I have provided some information on the water situation, although I realise this is not a direct responsibility of the committee.

In conclusion, we fully appreciate the difficulties experienced by people both from the cold period and in the subsequent thaw. We acknowledge that the public representatives have experienced huge pressure in this regard. I point out the great community spirit that was evident in many places, taking responsibility for checking older people and minimising the need for them to come out in the cold weather, which is to be commended.

The budgetary impact is being assessed and submissions will be made to the Department of Transport. A full review will be made of all of the operations, co-ordination, communications and so on, and reports will be made to our local councils, the Department of Transport and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I want to publicly record our thanks to all of the staff who have been working on a continuous basis for four weeks over the Christmas period, dealing with this situation. I offer special thanks for the voluntary input from organisations like the Civil Defence and others.

Therefore, there was a significant staff complement during the Christmas period. I am interested to hear the council was gritting on Christmas Day.

Mr. John Tierney

It did so every day from the time the problem arose around 18 to 20 December.

Mr. Tom Dowling

I am pleased to have opportunity to meet the committee to discuss our response to the abnormal weather conditions on roads and services, with particular emphasis on the road network. The response to the recent weather conditions highlighted our ability as a council to keep the county open for business during the weather conditions. While not everybody will agree with that, the vast majority of people were able to get about their business.

The tried and tested plans that kept national and strategic roads open to traffic were put into action. We have responsibility for 192 km of national roads and 2,975 km of non-national roads. We gritted 460 km during each call-out, with two runs being carried out on some nights — I believe a number of the members present saw our gritters out working. In excess of 2,000 tonnes of salt were spread throughout the county since mid-December and we did not at any time run out of salt. For the most part this extensive salting programme allowed our large commuter workforce to travel safely out of the county to their workplaces. Strategic links to adjoining counties, interurban routes and access to the metropolitan area were kept open and maintained reasonably ice-free.

The council's plan for the salting of the strategic road network is predetermined and informed by historical weather data, Met Éireann forecasts, connectivity to the road network in other counties and the transport requirements of commuters. One of the lessons we have learned from recent events is the need for greater connectivity in some cases to the road network in other counties, as mentioned by Deputy Thomas Byrne. As county manager, my task is to balance the different needs of all road users while ensuring that national and regional economic activity is not compromised. I would like more routes to have been salted; I cannot deny there were areas where communities were inconvenienced. However, this was an abnormal and prolonged event, not seen in 30 years, and it ultimately required a national co-ordinated response.

The decision by the emergency response committee to ask the National Roads Authority to co-ordinate arrangements in regard to the management of salt stocks across the country was most welcome and is an approach that should be maintained into the future. That will allow for a more orderly distribution of salt to meet the requirements of local authority plans and will assist in the development of a co-ordinated national plan. I have already stated that at no stage did Meath County Council run out of salt. However, our reserves were uncomfortably low. In regard to points made about poor conditions in some areas of the county, the reality is that the additional of another route would have required the dropping of an existing one from the approved list. This would have been detrimental to the safety of road users who had already accustomed themselves to driving on a consistently salted route. It was something of a catch-22 situation.

Unfortunately, a consequence of the abnormal weather conditions will be a significant deterioration of pavement conditions with the inevitability of potholes and surface deterioration. Local authorities throughout the State dealt with the crisis on the basis that finance was not a deterrent to an appropriate response, but there is no doubt that a financial burden will be imposed on every authority into the future as a result of what has happened. Moreover, at the same time as we were handling the road network we also had to deal with the water supply, as referred to by my colleague, Mr. Tierney.

As per the circular on major emergencies and without invoking the full plan, Meath County Council fully utilised the arrangements set out in our local emergency plan, as did other local authorities. This included the activation of the crisis management group, co-ordination with other State agencies and mobilisation of the civil defence. The crisis management group was tasked with prioritising the response of the local authority and the collection, management and dissemination of information. Communication has been very important in all of this and at all times the provision of information to elected members was a priority. The public had access to a dedicated Meath County Council customer service team, including at weekends and late into the night, whose members were continuously informed and were able to advise, update and make arrangements to call back affected people. More than 6,500 weather-related telephone calls were recorded and responded to in the last two weeks. This was a significant achievement. The emergency section of the council's website was continuously updated as information was collected and it recorded almost 5,000 hits over the period. Local radio was used to communicate information, with a live update by our public relations representative every morning on LMFM.

I acknowledge that some people were inconvenienced, to put it mildly, during the recent severe weather and that motorists experienced delays. Thankfully, however, there were no fatal injuries and our planned and co-ordinated approach to the crisis ensured the impact was kept to a minimum. Like my colleagues, I acknowledge the extraordinary and selfless efforts of the council's front line staff who put the needs of the public and the requirements of the organisation first.

Leaving politics aside, anybody listening to today's presentations must conclude that the response from local authorities and the National Roads Authority was magnificent. There can be little doubt in that regard when we hear, for example, that there were four grittings in one day in Fingal and that Dublin City Council staff were out on Christmas Day. However, the problem is that the only image people in most people's minds is of there being no salt to be had in the State and it having to be brought in from Europe. Likewise, people recall the events of 6 January when every office worker in Dublin left for home at 2.30 p.m. and all were five or six hours on the road. I absolutely agree that council workers, emergency workers and volunteers who worked over the Christmas period did a wonderful job and are deserving of much appreciation. I am aware of the long hours put in by some of these people. However, all of this gets lost in the rush to focus on the negative, with all the media reports focusing on the problems that arose. Perhaps a lesson to be learned in this is that we are not good at communicating the official response in a crisis or a perceived crisis.

When my daughter was living there some years ago, I spent several days in Boston during a particularly severe winter. There is a protocol there whereby everybody cleans the footpath outside their own home or business. Is it correct, as has been suggested, that a person who does the same in this State could be in difficulty with his or her insurer? There is a need to communicate to the public that it is not possible to clean the footpath in front of everybody's house or to grit every road and every housing estate. There must be some degree of tolerance.

Recent events bring into sharp focus the need to address the situation where so many people expect to be able to drive their car into the centre of this city every day. The fact that it took so many hours for people to get home at the height of the severe weather re-emphasises the main objective of this committee, which is to seek to change the culture of car dependence towards a greater usage of public transport.

I have a final point specifically for Mr. Barry. Motorists throughout the State are plagued by potholes on our roads. I have watched with horror in recent times as local authority workers in more than one county have gone around in a truck and used a shovel to fill potholes. From an engineering perspective, is there an alternative to tarring and chipping? Am I correct in assuming it is a waste of money? Second, is there some way that potholes can be patched properly so that they do not reappear? Mr. Barry may like to take those questions now.

Mr. Fred Barry

It would be much better if all roads were designed and constructed to engineering standards, with proper foundations and so on. If that were so, we would not be without potholes and other problems but they would certainly be far fewer. I do not refer here to national primary roads, although many of the national secondary roads are not to adequate engineering standards. The problems are even greater in the case of many regional and local roads throughout the State.

The quality of work done in tarring and chipping and so on will not provide the same long-term solution as better responses. The Minister made the reasonable point earlier that given the current state of so many roads, local authorities will have to undertake emergency work simply to make them passable. They should be left to their own devices as to what is the most effective way to do that.

Everyone has seen photographs showing roads with many potholes or where sections of the road have broken away. Immediate action must be taken in respect of some roads or they simply will become unusable. In some cases, the local authorities——

What immediate action can be taken that will last 12 months? I travelled on a road in Connemara the other day that had been repaired by having its potholes filled in just before Christmas and I could not believe it. It had been completely torn up and they may as well not have bothered. Why is it not possible to fill such potholes by patching them up properly? When good work is done, the road is dug out, some form of base is put in, tarmacadam is applied and it lasts. At least one is not then obliged to return six months later and do it again.

Mr. Fred Barry

It is possible and I do not think anyone in the local authorities sets out to perform work that must be replaced in short order. While I know nothing about the individual potholes or roads to which the Chairman refers, they may simply have been unfortunate in their timing by virtue of being hit by saturation arising from flooding.

While I recall that previously, the problem used to be worse in places such as County Cavan, a tendency still exists, possibly for financial reasons or whatever, to carry out a tar and chip job that nine times out of ten will not last, especially if the underlying structure is not right.

Mr. Fred Barry

As for sorting out the underlying structure, we are working our way steadily through the national road network and are improving roads. Moreover, new roads are built to proper standards and we are getting started on the national secondary roads. While we certainly will succeed in improving them, that is a long-term project, especially with funding at current levels.

While I am not happy with the response, it is not too often that I am unhappy with Mr. Barry's responses.

Mr. John Tierney

On the first issue that was raised about locations, each of the managers can provide the joint committee with a separate report on the scale of communications in which they engaged over the period concerned. I have to hand one from Dublin City Council and my colleague, Mr. Michael Phillips, in particular, knows how national and local media were managed. Moreover, the use of our websites was extremely helpful, as was the use of the variable messaging signs on the city's approaches that were upgraded recently. As for the use of the Dublin City FM radio station, for example, broadcasting was extended until 9.30 p.m. on the night of 6 January to help people to try to get home. Consequently, a huge amount was done in respect of communications during the period in question.

As for the issue of footpaths, the Minister has clarified that some ambiguities in this regard must be sorted out once and for all through legislation. Our understanding is that work will be done on that issue. On the need for people to understand, it is difficult, because the understanding of someone who was caught in a particularly awkward situation is limited to that situation. Nevertheless, as Mr. Tom Dowling noted and as my report also covered, the entire emphasis was on keeping going the bulk of the main arterial routes in order that the country's business could be kept going as much as possible. The vast majority of people understand this was the absolutely correct priority for the period. Members know my views on the subject of cars driving into the city and are aware of the many initiatives afoot to try to improve the modal shift, such as through bus corridors and so on. While reference was made to what happened on 6 January, one must remember that people are not accustomed to driving in snow. This causes considerable problems, particularly when there is a huge congregation of traffic on the streets at the same time.

I welcome all the delegates. This is a great opportunity for all of the councils. I acknowledge that the delegates are drawn from some of the local councils in close proximity to Leinster House but they comprise a representative sample. I also am delighted that the National Roads Authority, NRA, is in attendance. I always maintain that if one rings or e-mails the NRA, one will receive a response within five minutes. This is a fantastic way of responding as although one might not like the answer, one will receive it.

My role over the past two or three weeks was to be Fine Gael's mouthpiece. I am my party's spokesperson on road safety and we have supported the Government on every measure in that regard. On that subject, before turning to the events of the past three weeks, I will take this opportunity to congratulate all the county councils on the manner in which they have helped us to move away from being the 17th worst country in Europe in respect of road safety. Publication of the latest report this year will demonstrate that Ireland is among the best two or three countries. I pay that compliment in appreciation of all the work undertaken by county councils to identify dangerous spots, to employ full-time road safety officers, to educate young people and so on. Undoubtedly, road safety was my biggest concern at Christmas. However, the lesson I learned this Christmas was the point that Mr. Noel Brett and Mr. Gay Byrne have been making, namely, that speed kills. Members are aware that over the Christmas period, road deaths were reduced to practically nil. I acknowledge there were one or two unfortunate cases.

The point I have been trying to get across is that this was due to the response of the public and of the different county councils. I except Meath County Council from this because I am familiar with the public relations work that was put in there in respect of some emergency cases that were relayed right across the country. However, I refer to the fact known by both members and delegates that given the weather forecasts, there was a serious danger that salt would not be available. Luckily, the weather forecasters got it wrong in the end as otherwise, I do not know what we would have done from 10 to 12 January because the salt was not available and would not have been available. This point must be acknowledged and must not be covered up.

We have been given a golden opportunity and I mean to make a suggestion to the Minister, with whom I sometimes fight and sometimes do not. In the future and perhaps by next year, the NRA should be in control of 10,000 tonnes to 15,000 tonnes of salt at any given time, for distribution to whatever county needs it. It was not credible for the Taoiseach to state that 55,000 tonnes were available to cover the 26 counties when that evening, our counterpart in Northern Ireland stated on radio that the authorities there had 50,000 tonnes available at the same time. This issue will return as such weather conditions will return.

The events over the Christmas period probably has brought forward the issue of road conditions, as their deterioration did not simply begin at Christmas. While I will not single out individual counties, I have personal experience of nearly every county, having visited Munster, Leinster and Ulster between 20 December and 1 January. In the presence of the Meath county manager, I note that one sometimes feels constrained about saying the right thing or does not do so and perhaps the delegates feel the same. However, the bottom line is that road conditions are disastrous and the delegates know the Chairman has spoken the truth in this regard. Having been a farmer for most of my life, I know that one can only patch up a silage pit for so long before one is obliged to install a new floor and the same principle applies to our roads.

The delegates collectively must revert with a report to the Minister. Even if implementing such a report cost €200 million or €300 million, given the present state of the roads, no industry can operate and no people can go to work in a safe manner. The cost to people's cars over the past 12 months has been immense and the county councils have been receiving car repair bills on a daily basis, even though they are not obliged to pay them. However, the county managers must revert with a report as the people expect this of them. Although the people are aware of the work undertaken by the county councils over Christmas, are familiar with the hours that were worked and the associated public relations points, the councils must produce a report in writing outlining what it will take. As the best engineers work for the councils, they should not beat around the bush on this issue. As a Fine Gael representative and a supporter of road safety, in which regard I will support the Government, my point is that we should not have to revisit this issue and that money cannot be the issue.

I also thank the county managers for their attendance today and pay tribute to the many managers and staff of local authorities who went beyond the call of duty. However, I have a few questions that require a response. First, what is the baseline cost of a tonne of salt, if one were to buy it on the open market outside of emergency conditions? Does rock salt have a shelf life? The delegates should answer this question now.

It already has been answered. This shelf life is approximately one year.

What is the cost of salt if one were to buy it in the summer?

Mr. David O’Connor

There are two salt sources. Salt from Carrickfergus, which is less pure and which cannot be used on national routes, costs €44 per tonne when delivered to Fingal County Council. The cost of salt imported from Spain, which is high-quality, 95% pure and suitable for a national road use, is €95 per tonne.

Is there a shelf-life for salt?

Mr. Fred Barry

About a year is correct. It depends on the conditions the salt is kept in, the moisture take-up and the grade of the salt. There is no difficulty in managing a stockpile. One can feed it in at one end and take it out at the other. No one would say an inability to stockpile is an issue.

Mr. Barry is saying that we had 24,000 tonnes of salt in a stockpile. Multiplied by €45 per tonne, this comes to less than €1 million. Does Mr. Barry not agree that he screwed up? For less than €1 million of salt, almost €1 billion of road was not maintained and the bill around the country will amount to between €150 million and €200 million. Does Mr. Barry think he erred on the side of neglect? We should have had more salt. I do not care what happened in the United Kingdom or Europe. We did not have enough insurance. I place the blame on the NRA for one aspect of this. There was effectively a salt war or a turf war. Most local authorities who ran short were asking other local authorities for salt for national primary routes. There was a turf war until it became clear there was a problem and the NRA got involved on 7 January, which was three weeks too late. Most local authorities asked other local authorities and some had some stockpiled but they were reluctant to give to other local authorities until the NRA got involved.

I ask Mr. Barry to answer that point specifically.

Mr. Fred Barry

It would have been better if we had more salt in the stockpile before Christmas. I am speaking collectively for the whole local authority system. However, a stockpile of 24,000 tonnes has worked well in the past 20 to 30 years. Even this year with the shortfall, it was enough to deal with the national roads. I refer to the national road stockpile. I agree that it would be better if we had more. As it happens, we managed to keep everyone in salt for the national roads over that period.

We began engaging with local authorities informally at the end of December. The Department and the Minister gave us a formal role on 7 January but we had started working with the local authorities before that. Neighbouring local authorities were dealing directly with one another and we were able to bring long-distance co-operation to bear. One of the lessons to take from this is that we should track stockpile levels at national level throughout the winter season. I do not mean that local authorities should be burdened with providing daily reports in a non-crisis situation but we should do this weekly or every few weeks.

Is it easier for the NRA to buy this in bulk rather than councils purchasing it?

Mr. Fred Barry

The advantage in getting the NRA involved is that all countries in northern Europe were fighting one another for salt and we were able to deal more expeditiously with overseas players than local authorities could individually. That is the value of the NRA from the supply point of view. Supply of salt is a multiweek matter; one cannot buy salt and have it show up in the country the next day. Much of the salt we bought is still on the high seas. Stockpiles are fairly low at the moment. There are some 10,000 to 12,000 tonnes in stockpile at the moment. We need to get the stockpiles rebuilt over the next few weeks and hopefully we will get that done before we get the rest of the bad weather. That is what I see as the primary benefits. There is no particular advantage to the NRA dealing with those who supply salt to the country rather than local authorities. They will deliver or arrange delivery directly to the local authorities.

Is the NRA a more influential purchaser with bigger bulk? The supplier will deal more quickly with the NRA buying 20,000 tonnes than with the council buying 1,000 tonnes.

Mr. Fred Barry

We were able to get attention in the international market in a way that a local authority would find difficult. We went out looking for orders of 20,000 tonnes.

Could the NRA co-ordinate this through the councils in future?

Mr. Fred Barry

Possibly. We need to do more co-ordination in seeing where the stockpile situation is through the season. I am reluctant for us to start muscling in on what is local authority business that they generally do quite well.

What about local authorities that salt the national primary and national secondary roads under the jurisdiction of the NRA?

Mr. Fred Barry

If the local authorities want us to do it, we will do it like a shot. I am reluctant to push this on top of them.

There is a lesson to be learned, as Mr. Barry has acknowledged. Where does Mr. Barry purchase the salt?

Mr. Fred Barry

The salt coming in at the moment comes from Italy. It also comes from Turkey. In normal circumstances some comes from Ireland, much comes from the UK and there are also salt mines in Germany, Poland, France and Spain.

Even Germany was running short of salt and has great need for it with weather conditions such as this throughout the winter. I would like to hear the comments of the NRA on the co-ordination of salt supplies. In some cases part of a road is done and another part is not done when one crosses into another county. I know this happened in Deputy Feighan's area because my wife is from there. He lives on the county border and people were attributing his location to the fact that gritting was done on that side of the Sligo border. That was probably because Sligo did not prioritise the road to Gurteen, where my wife is from. The same thing happened between Meath, Louth and Cavan. Either the whole road should be gritted or not at all if the resources are not there.

I am not convinced we cannot grit more regional roads. Maybe we should set the standard that all regional roads are to be gritted because they are important. Gritting all regional roads, certainly in County Meath, would catch most of the major centres of population. Very few were left out and this is something counties should examine. We had problems in County Meath. The second and tenth largest towns in the county were left without access although Stamullen had some access at some stage.

I pay tribute to the engineers on the ground. It may be inappropriate to name them but they were available 24 hours a day over the Christmas period. They did much work that they were not supposed to do and I am grateful for that. Liability is a live issue. Councils should be exempted from public liability for gritting and emergency works. If they grit a junction they should not be worried that they will be liable if someone crashes a car or slips beside the junction. What should be our criteria if we are not to grit every road? Should the size of the towns be the factor? The manager knows that there was no official access to the second largest town in County Meath until a couple of weeks into the crisis? Should weather patterns be used as criteria? I refer also to national co-ordination.

The issue of a law to require people to clear up outside their premises has been mentioned. Was there a by-law or did local authorities pretend there was one in days of yore? Did good citizens believe there was one? It is fine if the Minister is to work on a national law but I wonder if there was ever a by-law. Was it ever enforced?

The stockpiles of salt do not seem that bulky. Is it kept indoors or out in an old yard? It seems we could buy more of it. Did Donegal hand out bags as one would hand out bags of sand in a flood? It would be more relevant for a local authority down the country to give people quantities of it. Almost every little packet of table salt was bought out of every supermarket in Dublin. People would go to their bring depot if they could get small quantities to throw around without being responsible for it.

The most lasting sign of the damage in Dublin is in the water supply but I do not know whether it is relevant to the Joint Committee on Transport. Things are not as bad as they were up to the weekend but a constituent e-mailed me last night to state that he still does not have a drop of water, even from the cold tap, after 11 days. That is not typical and I know about the problems of water not going up a hill, having a gravity system and how hard it is, even with the efforts made, to divide it on a fair basis. People are probably getting a fill at night now and it is a bit more organised than it was but when will we see the end of the problem? Is it a day or two away or far into the future?

It is probably heresy to state this but there was not that much snow. The snow of 1981 or 1982 was worse by far. Any gritting done on Christmas Day and St. Stephen's Day was a waste. Leopardstown races took place on all four days. There was some auld fog one day, which was not on the north side, and two of the days were wet but there was no need to grit. We are a small country but it can be nice in Dublin and snowing in Cork and vice versa two or three days later. I live on the flat and do not have to drive up or down any hills so I probably got away lightly. The day there was a bit of snow here at lunch time the problem was caused by everybody panicking and joining a queue for five hours to get home. If they stayed in their offices and did a bit of work they would have had no bother driving home at 8 p.m. or 9 p.m. A degree of panic sets into people. We all have lessons to learn and the local authorities should buy more salt and have it next time.

I welcome the county managers and directors of service and I congratulate them on the work they did. Mr. O'Connor, Mr. Lorigan and Mr. Spain who are here from Fingal County Council are not alone involved on roads and footpaths but they are now involved on water. This has been going on for three weeks and they are still at it. I thank them for their commitment. As Deputy Noel Ahern stated, water is still an issue in rural Fingal with new leaks cropping up almost every day and problems with reservoir pressure.

It is incumbent on county managers to resolve the issue of clearing footpaths and insurance with the Department. We cannot leave it in limbo any longer. Either there is a liability or there is not. Coming from an insurance background I believe there is a liability on any householder or retailer who half does the job. From information I gleaned from insurance companies over the years they would regard it as a risk.

Councils in Dublin city and big towns must work with business associations and chambers of commerce. It was ridiculous to see retailers do nothing, leave the snow and blame the council, Ministers and politicians. We are elected to do a job and we will take blame but there is an onus on people to help themselves. If one more lesson could be learned for a future problem of this magnitude it would be for business associations and chambers of commerce to get involved with local authorities and decide who will do what and how the burden might be shared. Everyone is affected; if people cannot get in and out of shops in safety they will not venture in. It behoves everyone to be involved.

With regard to water leaks, trying to trace pipes through rural fields and roads is a particular problem in Fingal. Is any technology or telemetry available that can help trace them? I am not being critical but I am sure Mr. Spain has nightmares when he hears Naul and Garristown mentioned. Is any new technology available that will state water is not flowing through a particular section? If not I suggest we should work towards it and give Mr. Fred Barry another little job to do. If technology is available somewhere we should have it because it would make life far easier for county managers and their officials and less people would hassle their local politicians and council staff about not having water, particularly when a website states and Deputies and councillors are informed that a leak has been located and that water should be back but half an hour later another leak occurs. I would like to see action taken and comments on this.

I will allow Deputy Feighan to speak as when Deputy Ahern asked where the salt was stored I heard him state that in Leitrim it is stored in the cellar.

I did not say that; I stated that I thought salt was normally stored in a cellar.

The delegates will agree that we failed to protect regional roads. I know it is difficult for most local authorities to address regional roads with the resources they have. Is this an opportunity to consider addressing certain regional roads with outside contractors, such as agricultural contractors? In my area, regional roads were not addressed for four weeks and the ice that impacted on those roads has caused serious damage.

Mr. Tom Dowling

When I made my presentation I referred to Deputy Byrne's comment to the Minister on the link between various local authorities and one road joining another not being dealt with. That is one lesson we learned. I believe in the work done by our staff and drivers. They know the roads and routes and were give very clear instructions on what to do; each day they were told to turn left or right at a particular point. It is hard to beat the local authority's drivers in rural areas and we found them to be of great benefit.

As the Chairman mentioned, we need greater public awareness on how to react and respond in a situation such as this. We probably did not respond as a people as well as we should and probably over-reacted to some extent and may not have dressed appropriately or driven the right car at the right speed. There may be room for a national education process on public awareness.

We take on board the point about salt and we will have to sit down and discuss it with the National Roads Authority. As a local authority, we would take a certain view and other authorities may differ. However, the local government sector will co-ordinate its response to the cost of road repairs in its submissions to the Department.

Mr. John Tierney

Deputy Feighan asked about turf wars. I am not aware of any turf wars. Unusually, every local authority experienced a demand for salt because the problem arose countrywide. I can provide examples of co-operation between local authorities which might not have been evident in public. Loads of salt were being swapped so that different areas could manage particularly difficult periods. The 30 months worth of stock stored by Dublin City Council was insufficient and we had to use the equivalent of more than three years' stock over a short period of time. Salt is stored in barns in the Dublin region.

There was no by-law available to us in this situation. The Deputy was probably referring to old by-laws which were used in the 19th century to keep the outside of premises clean. The council's archivist recently informed me that the last occasion on which these by-laws were debated was during our last snow event in 1963. I hope the new legislation will not take as long to prepare.

Water restriction and conservation efforts are ongoing. It is disappointing that despite the message on conservation which was broadcast on 8 January, demand in the city peaked at 634 megalitres on Sunday. That is almost 100 megalitres more than the normal quantity for that time of the year. We have already been critical of an insurance company which promoted the running of taps, thereby running down our strategic capacity. The hugely important reservoir of treated water in Stillorgan fell from its normal volume of 800 megalitres to its lowest level ever of 402 megalitres. We have stabilised the problem in terms of stopping the reduction and have restored the volume to approximately 453 megalitres but a lot of work remains to be done. That is but one of our problems in restoring storage levels across the region. We have tried to provide water to everybody at some stage of the day. I accept that difficulties arise in local pockets due to unidentified burst mains and other problems but we have teams working to resolve them. In Dublin, these pockets include parts of Killester, Harold's Cross and Smithfield. We regularly notify Deputies and councillors of other areas where restrictions apply. Every attempt is being made to restore supply for at least some part of the day.

Mention was made of the amount of snow which fell. Gritting is carried out on the basis of the icecast system, which means we have to go out if the temperature drops to a particular level. That was done every night during the period in question. While the amount of snow was small relative to somewhere like Germany, our big problem was ongoing low temperatures. The snow was turning to ice and compacting.

Mr. Michael Phillips

I will reply briefly to Deputy Kennedy's question on leakage. When this issue last arose in 1996 and 1997 it resulted in a major rehabilitation and conservation programme, with €50 million invested in the system in the Dublin region by 2002. A new telemetry system was put in place to provide information on large flows in and out of the region. Each area was divided into 1,000 to 1,500 metered units. In the context of the current crisis, we are monitoring leakage in all these areas but if we cannot identify smaller areas in the zones we have to use the latest technology to locate the sound of water flowing through leaks in the pipes. The problem we face at present is that the pipes are not full. It is a chicken and egg situation in that we are restricting flows to refill the reservoirs, which means that we cannot hear the sound of leaks. If we can refill the reservoirs we can then fill the pipes and do a better job of detecting leaks.

In rural areas, if a leak occurs under a stream or a ditch it will not come to the surface. Approximately 80% of leaks do not appear on the surface. When the ground defrosted last weekend, we detected a series of bursts and leaks. We have been repairing approximately 25 leaks per day, compared with an annual daily average of three. These leaks are decreasing as I speak and we are now beginning the hard slog of soundings and step testing at night and shutting down streets or stretches of pipeline in rural areas to determine where the water is going. The restrictions on resources will have to be maintained for the next four months if we are to reduce leakage and stabilise water levels in reservoirs.

I shall leave the last word to Mr. Barry. I had reason to travel to Galway this morning in less than two hours while trying to avoid breaking the speed limit. I acknowledge the fantastic job done on that road. Politicians regularly make criticisms of officials but it is a wonderful experience to drive from Kilmainham to Doughiska non-stop and great credit is due to the NRA.

Mr. Fred Barry

I thank the Chairman for his kind words. I hope funding will continue to be made available to the NRA and local authorities to continue that kind of fine work.

Local authorities' collective storage capacity is approximately 23,000 tonnes in barns and a further 13,000 in outdoor storage. We have also identified additional storage facilities in ports which we will use if we find we have purchased too much salt.

In regard to the comment that Northern Ireland has as much salt as the Republic, one would expect that for a couple of reasons. The Northern Ireland Roads Service is also responsible for non-national roads and given the nature of the climate, the north of the island would use more salt in a typical year.

Is Mr. Barry saying local authorities in the North grit roads that we do not?

We are not comparing like with like.

Mr. Fred Barry

The structure of the management of roads in the North of Ireland differs from that of the Republic. The Northern Ireland Roads Service is responsible for pretty much everything associated with roads.

Is Mr. Barry including the amount of salt possessed by local authorities in the national figure used for comparison with Northern Ireland or merely adding up the salt available to the NRA for national roads?

We will not go down that road.

It is quite clear there was no salt down here.

The Opposition tries to control the criticism but this is an important point.

We are well used to it from the Opposition.

Turn off the digger.

Mr. Fred Barry

The salt I referred to as being in stockpiles is material held by the local authorities and purchased with funding from the NRA. It is at least nominally intended for national roads, although some of it may dribble onto non-national roads in the normal course of events.

County Donegal would typically use six times as much salt through the winter as County Kerry because of the difference in climate. The real issue, however, was the low temperatures which gave rise to icy conditions rather than snow because of the moist air over the country. It is not that snow is not a problem, but it was more ice than snow.

On co-ordination of supplies, I want to be clear in the context of everything that was said that I believe the local authorities co-operated admirably both with one another and with us during the course of all of this. From the point of view of whether the NRA should be doing more co-ordination or should be sourcing supplies, we are very open to whatever comes out of the review to do whatever is thought best when it is all put together. However, in no sense should anything we say be taken as any reflection on the local authorities and what they did, because that is not intended and would not be right.

If a car is damaged — say, a wheel is destroyed — as a result of a hole in a national primary or secondary road, or on any other road, who is responsible?

Mr. Fred Barry

One will get different opinions but, as far as I know, the local authorities and the NRA have statutory exemption from responsibility. If somebody is on a national road and damages a car, they cannot sue the NRA or the Minister. Under the Roads Act——

Have local authorities paid out for punctures as a result of potholes?

Mr. John Tierney

Technically, it is nonfeasance where the liability does not arise. Whether that has been decided in all cases in court is another issue. However, the liability technically arises where there is misfeasance, where one repairs the road in a fashion that is not proper.

That is fine. I thank the witnesses for attending. I know they are all busy and I regret we had to call them in at short notice. However, it was a useful meeting both from their perspective and ours.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.30 p.m. until 3.45 p.m on Wednesday, 24 February 2010.
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