Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Wednesday, 27 Mar 2013

Sponsorship of Major Sporting Events by Drinks Industry: Discussion with FAI, GAA and IRFU

Chairman

The purpose of this morning's engagement is to hear the views of three sporting organisations, the Football Association of Ireland, FAI, the Gaelic Athletic Association, GAA, and the Irish Rugby Football Union, IRFU, on the sponsorship of major sports events by the alcoholic drinks industry. The committee will hold further meetings on this issue with other interested groups next month.

I welcome Mr. Páraic Duffy, árd stiúrthóir of the GAA, Mr. Philip Browne, chief executive of the IRFU, and Mr. John Delaney, chief executive of the FAI. On behalf of the committee I acknowledge the vital role the three organisations play in the activities of a swathe of young people across the country. We very much acknowledge the leadership they have given, particularly at this point in the country's development and given its difficulties.

I wish to draw the delegates' attention to the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I also wish to advise witnesses that any submissions or opening statements they have submitted to the committee will be published on the committee's website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I propose that we will start by hearing the IRFU representative first and we will then take Mr. John Delaney of the FAI followed by Mr. Páraic Duffy of the GAA. After hearing the three presentations we will then go back to the members in the usual format, as already agreed by the committee. I now invite Mr. Browne to address the committee.

Mr. Philip Browne

As chief executive of the Irish Rugby Football Union, I wish to thank the members of the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications for the opportunity to discuss the implications of possible legislation banning alcohol sponsorships for major sporting events.

As regards the topic we have been invited here to address, it is our view that the debate is much broader than referred to in the invitation, namely, "the banning of sponsorship of major sporting events by alcohol companies". In reality, this is one element of the proposals being promoted based on a slew of recommendations in the February 2012 steering group report, which refers to the elimination of drinks industry sponsorship of sport in general. Our response is based on these broader proposals facing us.

I would like to start by underlining that the IRFU is committed, through the promotion of sport, to the development of healthy lifestyles and building communities. Indeed, all sports are. Rugby and rugby clubs are an integral part of the social fabric of communities across the length and breadth of this island. They play a significant role, particularly among young people, in fostering the discipline and habit of physical activity, social interaction and the ethos of team involvement.

The IRFU is more than aware of social issues surrounding alcohol misuse, including the consumption of alcohol by minors. As I have said, we are fully committed to playing a constructive role in promoting alcohol awareness and educational programmes, and advocating the responsible use of alcohol. With over 150,000 active playing members and over 9,000 coaches in rugby clubs and schools across the island of Ireland, we are ideally placed to assist the Department of Health to mount major educational campaigns in these communities.

Issues of alcohol misuse and the need for alcohol education are not unique to Ireland and Ireland is not the first country to consider banning alcohol sponsorship in sports. However, let us be absolutely clear on this - in countries where such bans have been introduced, no empirical evidence whatsoever exists that demonstrates a ban on sports sponsorship is effective in terms of reducing alcohol misuse. I would also add that no coherent, evidence-based research exists linking alcohol sponsorship of sports events to alcohol misuse.

As I have stated, the IRFU wishes to work with the Government on these issues. We have recently developed a proposed awareness and education action plan, an approach to the issue of education through sport, on alcohol use and misuse. This document has been presented to the Minister and has been circulated to this committee in advance of today's meeting. It demonstrates the IRFU's clear commitment to putting our extensive network at the disposal of the Government to actually make a long-term impact. I would urge this committee to recommend to the Minister and his Department that they embrace this approach of constructive co-operation, as opposed to unravelling and undermining a system which is already delivering for the health of the nation.

The IRFU believes that the elimination of alcohol sponsorship from sport will simply satisfy a perceived, yet unproven, correlation between it and alcohol misuse, while delivering no concrete benefits to the community at large. The unintended consequences of such an action will be as follows. First, it will significantly reduce the IRFU's annual income, which will unfortunately force an immediate and drastic curtailment of the IRFU's ability to fund participation programmes for children and youths across the country. Second, it will directly hit clubs throughout the country, many of whom are already under severe financial pressures.

Third, it will be a major impediment to the IRFU's and Ireland's ability to mount a credible bid for major international rugby events, including Ireland's bid for the Rugby World Cup in 2023. It is a potential bid but something to which we aim and aspire. We have discussed the bid extensively with the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, and is well within our abilities as an island to achieve.

Fourth, it will impact our ability to fund professional teams both at national and provincial levels, with the consequential loss of competitiveness which will have a negative economic impact in terms of attracting significant numbers of visitors to this country. Furthermore, it will undoubtedly impact our ability to recruit young people into the game.

Let me be absolutely clear, there is no sponsorship white knight waiting in the wings to fill the financial chasm that will be left in every sport, should this proposal be implemented.

We would urge the Government to work towards a long-term, effective solution to the problems of alcohol abuse in this country by channelling the energies and focus of the various State agencies charged with responsibility for the overall health of the population, and in particular children, into one common, evidence-driven programme supported by sporting bodies such as the IRFU.

I thank members of the joint committee for their time and would obviously welcome any questions.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Browne for a very forthright view. Our next presentation is by Mr. John Delaney, the chief executive of the FAI. I would like to commiserate with him on last night's match and say that the team did very well, except for the last couple of minutes.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Clearly, the Chairman did not shout loud enough.

Chairman

We can do that. I now call on Mr. Delaney to make his presentation.

Mr. John Delaney

I thank the Chairman for his remarks. We have had better mornings to make presentations, but we are here anyway.

I wish to thank members of the joint committee very much for giving the FAI this opportunity to discuss the topic of sports sponsorship by drinks companies. Funding of sport is a very important issue for everyone in the country, particularly in the current downturn. Given the numbers that sport affects and the benefits it brings to so many - not just in health and tourism, but also in building communities - it is vitally important that these issues are considered carefully by our political representatives.

When most people consider sporting organisations like the FAI, they naturally tend to focus on the international team, as the Chairman pointed out a moment ago. Underneath, however, there is so much more. The FAI runs 24 community-based programmes through a 100-strong team in its technical department, with development officers on the ground, covering every county in the country. There are 2,600 clubs and 450,000 participants.

The work they do includes really important programmes that many will be aware of. Over and above coach education, player development, women's football programmes, referee education and work with clubs and leagues that one would expect, we also operate other large programmes in schools and third-level institutions. In addition, the FAI has an intercultural programme that uses football to assist with integration for the sizable number of new visitors to our country, volunteer education, child welfare programmes and football for all programmes with 13 nationally recognised disability groups.

We also run a significant number of community-based programmes in the area of social inclusion, which use football as a tool to tackle important social issues such as youth unemployment, helping young offenders and combatting anti­social behaviour - primarily, underage drinking. One of these is our late-night leagues, which is run in co-operation with the Garda Síochána across 21 centres. The programme takes place during prime anti-social hours from 8 p.m. to 11 p.m., when young people could cite boredom as a reason for drinking or smoking, often leading to anti-social behaviour.

Making football available free and convenient to these areas late in the evening, offers a chance to engage in a healthier lifestyle option, as well as developing a positive, informal dialogue with local gardaí.

Garda statistics have shown that, in 2010, while holding our local late night leagues, anti-social calls to the local Garda station were reduced by 52% in Tallaght west and 49% in Ballymun. Garda research in 2011 illustrated that on average across Dublin, in sub-divisions that held late night leagues there was a 26% reduction in anti-social behaviour related calls to these stations versus sub-divisions that did not hold late night leagues.

Government funding for sport covers some of these activities but that is being reduced year on year due to the prevailing economic environment. In 2008, the FAI's funding through the Irish Sports Council accounted for €4.35 million but that has been reduced and now accounts for €2.84 million, a reduction of 35%. As a result, the Irish Sports Council's funding now equates to 17% of our operating income meaning that we, as an organisation, rely more on sponsorship and commercial agreements than we did in the past.

As a sporting body which is not deemed to be a business by the Revenue Commissioners, the association is therefore not VAT-registered, so the increase in VAT from 21% to 23% during the same period has had a negative impact, increasing our costs by approximately €600,000 since the change was introduced.

In addition, the association has reduced ticket prices significantly during the last five years to respond to the economic environment, which has seen a decline in average ticket prices from the high €40 range to the mid €20 range.

The potential imposition of higher rates charges on the Aviva Stadium would result in further money being taken away from the development of community-based football programmes, if it were to go ahead.

The proposal to cut sponsorship would have a direct, negative impact on our ability to run these programmes, all of which contribute directly to keeping young people active, healthy and away from the temptations of substance abuse, including alcohol abuse. Last year, 105,000 children went through our social integration programmes. From that simple perspective, the proposal does not make sense. Decisions must be based on sound, factual evidence.

While the proposals which were put forward in the February 2012 steering group report are numerous and must be considered carefully, there is no evidence to show that its proposed ban on sports sponsorship would be effective in reducing alcohol consumption among the youth. Certainly, in France, one of the few countries to have taken such action, that has not been the case. To take such action without evidence means cuts to programmes. Sponsorship is much harder to come by than some would have us believe and a restriction on sponsorship by drinks companies would not be compensated for by alternative categories. As our diverse sponsorship portfolio shows, we would already be working with alternatives if they were out there. As political leaders, committee members must consider the unintended consequences of any decision they make. Besides jeopardising the very programmes which are beneficial to keeping people active and away from substance abuse, a ban would have a negative impact on our ability to bid for tournaments such as Euro 2020 which have the potential to provide a major boost to the national economy.

In reality, alcohol sponsorship is already well regulated. Diageo, with which we work, takes a very responsible approach. The FAI has also developed an action plan through which we believe we can engage even more with the relevant authorities to tackle the issue of alcohol consumption in a meaningful way. The number of people who play our sport mean that we are very well positioned to do so and I urge the committee and the Government to continue to work with us to achieve real and meaningful results. To do otherwise and impose a sponsorship ban will have an inevitably negative impact on our ability to deliver our programmes, which are so beneficial to communities across the country and Irish society as a whole.

In summary, national governing bodies, like the FAI, work hard to bring the benefits of sport to society within a funding model which is severely affected by the prevailing economic and market environment. Support from our sponsors ensures we can maintain and grow our sporting, community, fitness and health-related activities which are proven to be beneficial to society. We urge that the positive contribution by national governing bodies in these areas not be restricted by limiting funding from existing sponsors. Work to address societal issues like obesity and alcohol abuse can be enhanced significantly by supporting the work of associations such as the FAI in aggressively promoting sport, particularly in schools, to promote healthy lifestyles among the young.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Delaney for that detailed overview. I move to Mr. Páraic Duffy, ard stiúrthóir of the GAA.

Mr. Páraic Duffy

As director general of the GAA, I thank the members of the committee for giving me the opportunity to discuss the implications of possible legislation banning alcohol sponsorship for major sporting events. I also wish to update the committee on the education process the GAA has already undertaken on the matter of alcohol abuse in this country.

The GAA is a community-based, volunteer organisation promoting Gaelic games, culture and lifelong participation. It has over 2,500 clubs, 302 of which are international, and almost 20,000 teams engaged in competition in Ireland. In 2012, 82,000 children participated in our summer camps while more than 1.3 million supporters attended our intercounty championship matches. Volunteers are the bedrock of the association. The GAA accounts for 42% of sports volunteering in Ireland, with the total economic value of GAA volunteering estimated at approximately €112 million per annum. Revenue generated centrally allows the deployment of 317 games development personnel across the GAA to support our volunteers. Last year, €10 million was invested in games development and 84% of total revenue went back to clubs and counties. Our clubs provide games for over 300,000 registered players.

In 2012, the country's difficult economic and financial situation continued to be the dominant context and primary consideration for much of the GAA's planning and operational activities and in dealing with the direct consequences of the reduction in our income. Many of our counties and clubs struggled and continue to struggle under worrying levels of debt. Funding sources are fewer and yield less revenue than before. Of the GAA's overall funding, 33% comes from commercial revenue, which means that sponsorship is a very important funding stream.

The GAA is totally committed, through the promotion of its sports, to the development of healthy lifestyles and healthy attitudes to alcohol. We accept that there are issues around the misuse of alcohol, particularly by young people, and that these issues must be addressed. While the GAA will play a full part in trying to develop a more responsible attitude to the use of alcohol, there is no hard evidence to demonstrate that a ban on sports sponsorship will have any impact in reducing the misuse of alcohol. The GAA's approach to tackling the harm caused by the misuse of alcohol is clear and proactive. It is based around education and it uses a settings-based educational and intervention programme - one of the approaches recommended by the World Health Organization and the HSE - to deliver on that approach.

The GAA's alcohol and substance abuse prevention programme, which is known as ASAP, was set up in 2006 on foot of a recommendation by a GAA task force brought together to explore how the misuse of alcohol was impacting negatively on GAA members and the wider population. ASAP is a joint initiative with the HSE and is unique in the Irish sporting context. Its aim is to minimise the harm caused by the misuse of alcohol and other substances. It utilises the reach of the GAA network into every community in Ireland to deliver a comprehensive programme covering elements of education, prevention and response to alcohol-related issues. Best-practice policies and resources, including an educational DVD, website, a drug and alcohol policy template for clubs and an extensive ASAP manual, are available to all members and clubs. The programme mirrors the structures used for all GAA activities from games and coaching to integration and inclusion, with ASAP co-ordinators in place at club, county, provincial and national levels of the association. The ASAP national committee consists of 32 county officers and four provincial officers and is chaired by a member of the HSE drugs service. Under the GAA strategic vision and action plan, all GAA clubs have been tasked with appointing a club ASAP officer. To date, approximately 1,400 ASAP officers have been appointed and more than 700 clubs have adopted a drug and alcohol policy.

Training in drug and alcohol awareness is rolled out across all levels of the association, with coaches, parents and club and county officers as frequent participants. The process has generated many successful partnerships with agencies that share a common goal in reducing the misuse of alcohol, including Foróige, An Garda Síochána, local drugs task forces, community groups and second and third level schools and colleges. The programme continues to grow in its scope and design. In January 2012, the GAA introduced the innovative health challenge "Off the Booze and on the Ball", which asked members to abstain from alcohol for the month in order to kick-start the new year on a healthy footing. In 2012, we also saw the roll-out of a unique training programme for GAA coaches and ASAP officers called "Brief Interventions". A brief intervention is a short, structured, supportive conversation designed to assist someone, identified as drinking in a harmful way, to make a positive change in his or her behaviour and attitude towards alcohol. One county from each province - Armagh, Roscommon, Longford and Clare - participated in the pilot with additional training having occurred in Kerry, Dublin, Galway, Monaghan and Cavan subsequently. The brief-intervention model was designed and delivered by HSE professionals who have previously acted as ASAP officers in their respective clubs. The success of the ASAP programme over the last seven years has led to an expansion of the agreement with the health sector. This resulted in the launch this month by our president, Liam O'Neill, and Tony Holohan, the Chief Medical Officer of the Department of Health, of the GAA healthy-club project which will assist clubs and their communities to respond to health needs in a holistic way at grassroots level.

In summary, the GAA has in place an extensive alcohol education programme, the experience of which we are keen to share with other sporting organisations. The elimination of alcohol sponsorship from sport will deliver no real benefits. It will simply increase financial pressures on sporting bodies and their clubs. We firmly believe the solution lies in a renewed focus on educating our population to adopt more positive attitudes to the use of alcohol and legislation to make access to alcohol more difficult and expensive for young people. The GAA will continue to be proactive in educating our members on the use of alcohol. The support of Government for that policy will be far more effective than the imposition of any ban on alcohol sponsorship in sport.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Duffy.

I thank the delegations for their fine and detailed presentations which no doubt will help our committee's work. I call on Deputy Dooley.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I thank the delegations for their presentations. It is clear to all of us the impact on public health and social life these three organisations have right across the country. That is not in question. I take a practical view about the whole issue of advertising and sponsorship by alcohol drinks companies in the sporting industry. As some of the content originates in other jurisdictions, the notion of a blanket ban would be hard to implement. That is not to suggest there are no issues that need to be addressed. In the presentations, all organisations have indicated the efforts they are making to deal with alcohol abuse. It is not a crime to consume alcohol, not yet anyway. Clearly, the issue we all have to grapple with is the whole area of misuse.

Why do the delegations think the alcohol industry seeks to advertise and sponsor their sporting activities? Have they carried out any research on the connection between alcohol sponsorship and advertising and the conversion of teenage and young adult consumers? Most of the work the committee has done to date suggests the concern resides with this age cohort. A young fellow or girl sees a particular drinks company associated with a particular sporting endeavour. They somehow seem to believe it is cool and acceptable to consume this particular alcohol product. That is not to suggest they go on to misuse alcohol but that is the anecdotal evidence that exists. The only way we will be successful in understanding whether that is real or imaginary is if some qualitative research is done on this matter. Have the organisations here today done any research in that regard or would they consider doing it?

Mr. Philip Browne

Brands advertise in order to capture market share and increase the consumption of their product. It is interesting that over the past five years, sales of beer in Ireland have declined by 15% and yet the alcohol companies are still advertising. The reason they do it is that they are competing against each other for brand and market share. This is what is motivating the alcohol companies. It is to ensure they can survive in what is a diminishing market. We are sporting organisations so we are not equipped to do this sort of research in many respects. This is research that should be done by the relevant organisations within Government.

However, research has been done. It is worth noting the European school survey on alcohol and drugs, carried out in 2011, which showed there was a significant decrease in heavy episodic, binge drinking - by 17% to 40% in Ireland versus 52% in the UK, 44% in France and 39% on average in the EU. There is a perception that there is an increasing problem when an independent European body shows we actually have an improving situation. We have been asking the Department of Health for some time to show us the evidence. If the evidence is there, then of course we are interested in the health of the nation. The reality is we are in an improving situation in this regard.

Another interesting fact comes from France when the Loi Évin was put in place in 1991. The reality is that while underage abuse and misuse of alcohol is in decline in Ireland, it is on the increase in France. There is something not quite joined up in our thinking. I am all in favour of the relevant authorities conducting research to see if we can back up some of this independent research that has been done.

Mr. John Delaney

Mr. Browne has outlined very well why the alcohol drinks companies sponsor us. For example, there are five seats coming up in Kerry in the next general election which will be fought for by Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, the Labour Party and Independents. It is the same with sponsorship in that there will be Heineken, Budweiser or Carlsberg but no great increase in market share as the market is diminishing but they will be trying to get as much of it as they can.

Mr. Browne pointed to some great research that has been done on alcohol and sports. It would be interesting to do some research on the benefit of sporting authorities such as the GAA, the FAI and the IRFU, to youth. If we are taking one set of research on sponsorship, we should also look at the value these three sporting bodies and others give to the community.

Mr. Páraic Duffy

We have not undertaken the type of research to which Deputy Dooley referred.

Deputy John O'Mahony

I welcome the delegations from the three organisations and commend them on the work they do to promote their games and a healthy lifestyle. I commiserate with Mr. Delaney on last night's result. We have all been there and it is a very thin line at times. The battle was drawn last night but the war is still to be played for.

I took part in a seminar recently which was attended by high-profile GAA intercounty players who had suffered alcohol and gambling addictions. They pointed out strongly that while their involvement in sport in some sense contributed to their problem, it helped them come out the other side in recovery. Many of them are still involved in the organisation as a result of the measures it had in place to help cure their difficulties.

What is the percentage of sponsorship from drinks companies in the overall figure? Is it the case that on a national level the GAA could survive without drinks sponsorship while it would not be the case at local club level? Obviously, the Heineken Cup is a significant event to the IRFU.

Effectively, what the witness is saying is that his organisation would be in a less healthy state if sponsorship by the alcohol industry were banned. How has the ban affected the rugby and other sporting organisations in France, particularly in respect of the Heineken Cup? All of the witnesses have outlined their organisations' code of ethics and education policies. Perhaps they would elaborate further on that point. How far down to club level does the sponsorship money percolate or is it used only at national level?

Mr. Páraic Duffy

They are good questions, to which I will try to respond. The GAA is not dependent on sponsorship from the alcohol industry. It has one long-standing sponsor, one of the longest in Irish sport, namely, Guinness. Its sponsorship accounts for a small percentage of our overall budget. I could not honestly make the argument that we could not survive without it because we could. We are speaking here today on behalf of Irish sport. Just because the GAA would not be as badly affected as others does not mean sponsorship is not important. We are all part of the sporting nation. The Deputy is correct that sponsorship of the GAA by the alcohol industry accounts for a relatively small percentage of its income at national level. At club level, none of our clubs or county teams is sponsored directly by alcohol companies rather local teams are sponsored by local hotels or bars. Sponsorship is hugely important for clubs at that level. It is important the impression is not given that alcohol is the problem. Often the local bar is the centre of the community and sponsorship by a bar of a local GAA club is part of a community initiative and no more. At local level, a number of our clubs receive sponsorship from hotels or bars. Sponsorship at national level is not huge.

At national level, the only sponsor of the GAA is Guinness. It has been our sponsor for many years. It does not target its sponsorship at young people rather it is targeted at a GAA audience of older people. We would have no concerns about how that sponsorship has been handled and so on. I would like to reiterate a point I made earlier in my presentation. The view of the GAA is that sponsorship by alcohol companies should be allowed not because the GAA would be affected directly if it was withdrawn but because of its effect on sports generally. The GAA believes passionately that the way forward is through education. With funding from the HSE, the GAA has three people working full time in this area. We are making huge strides in this regard. We have shared what we are doing with the FAI and IRFU. We believe the way forward is to invest in educating people, using the sporting bodies. We are in the game and are willing to play a bigger role in it. We recently launched the healthy clubs initiative with Dr. Tony Holohan.

Mr. John Delaney

Carlsberg sponsors the FAI. I cannot reveal the amount of that sponsorship because that information is commercially sensitive. However, it is a significant percentage of our commercial revenue. The FAI's turnover rises and decreases year-on-year and depends on whether or not Ireland qualifies for the European championships and what matches are played. For example, the FAI received €5 million in television rights from the Ireland versus Germany home match last year, which was a sell-out. Had that game been played in 2013 our revenue in 2012 would have dropped. Our revenue would not be as even-handed as that of some of the other sporting organisations. When the centralised television deal with UEFA comes into play next year the path will be more even.

Carlsberg's sponsorship accounts for a significant percentage of our commercial revenue. The FAI promotes best practice and governance. I compliment the GAA on its work in this area, with which the FAI and IRFU are catching up but are keen to do. The question was asked about how the money percolates down to club level. We have to fund international sport and player development. I have been chief executive of the FAI for approximately nine years. During that time, social inclusion has become a big part of the thinking of the organisation for the 105,000 youths involved. If we had to make a decision about cutting funding, international sport and player development is our priority. I do not want them to be our priority or to cut social inclusion but our cutbacks would have to be in that area. Ultimately, the FAI survives on the success or lack of it of the senior international team.

Mr. Philip Browne

The Heineken Cup is separate to the others. It is not realistic to compare what happens in Ireland with what happens in France. One must look at the entire funding model of sport in the jurisdiction to understand it. In France, sport is held in great regard by the Government. It is extremely well funded in terms of facilities and operational expenditure. That is not to suggest that sport is not held in high regard by the Irish Government. We are talking about difference of scale not only in terms of the amount of money allocated to the sports budget in France, which is funded by central government and local government, but in terms the size of the French sponsorship market, which is approximately 15 times that of Ireland. The reality is that French clubs playing in the Heineken Cup have, as a result of the marketplace being so much larger, a much wider range of possibilities. Another important issue is where French rugby sits in the pantheon of sports in France. It sits very close to the top. The television deal which France has in respect of its domestic rugby competitions is vast. Its reliance on alcohol sponsorship is different to ours, which is the reason it can survive without it.

Another issue, which relates back to our discussion in the past about television rights, is that we are one of six participating in a pan-European competition where alcohol sponsorship ultimately is a deliverable. If we do not deliver on what the sponsor requires there is a financial consequence. There are also financial consequences for French clubs, which at the end of the day they can live with but which Ireland, in terms of its small marketplace of 4.5 million to 5 million, cannot. The IRFU would welcome meaningful interaction with the HSE on how it can assist. There has to date been no such interaction. We would urge the committee to support that type of engagement. In terms of the IRFU's code of ethics, all our clubs sign up to a code of ethics which includes sections in regard to substance misuse, alcohol abuse and recommendations on how matches at under-age level are managed.

Chairman

As many members have indicated their wish to ask questions, I will take questions from them in two groups, the first being Deputy Ellis. I will call members of the committee first and then non-members.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I thank the delegates for their presentations and acknowledge the huge contribution their organisations make to society through sports and all of the issues surrounding it. Having heard the contributions of the three delegates my first impression is that the general consensus is that a ban on alcohol sponsorship would have a huge affect on the organisations, although in terms of what they can deliver rather than their continuing in operation.

I refer to what the organisations can deliver in social and other areas.

I am very familiar with the running of the late night leagues. This issue has been raised with the JPCs and we have noticed there has been a drop in crime levels when these leagues and other events are taking place. We have argued that pulling people more into sport in different areas would reduce anti-social behaviour. It would give people, particularly young people, something to do.

I wonder where such a ban would lead us. We are dealing with the question of a ban on alcohol sponsorship of major events. Local clubs rely on the sponsorship by local pubs, which are advertised on the clubs' jerseys. I would like to hear the representatives' opinions on the effect such a ban would have at that level. Such sponsorship provides the bread and butter funding for most clubs and a ban on alcohol sponsorship would have an awful effect on them. Where would such a ban lead? Will we have a ban on advertising by McDonald's because of the problem of obesity? Will we have a ban on the advertising of fizzy drinks because they have an impact on people's health?

I do not know what the French formula is on such sponsorship. Do they have an outright ban on alcohol sponsorship? The representatives might advise if it is an outright ban or a partial ban and what the ban entails.

Surprisingly, there is a high number of non-drinkers in this country which people do not tend to realise. It is a very small market that the drinks companies target. I do not tend to pay much heed to the advertisements, even when I attend a match. I was at the match last night and I am devastated by the result.

Such a ban would have a side effect on these companies. I am not asking the representatives to talk about the companies but if Guinness, Carlsberg and other drinks companies put money towards sponsorship, such a ban on sponsorship could have an effect in terms of employment and other areas. I do not know if that is a question for the representatives to answer but it is one for all of us to bear in mind.

Mr. Philip Browne

Deputy Ellis has raised a few interesting points. My understanding of the proposal put forward by the Minister of State, Deputy White, is that it is not only a ban on alcohol sponsorship of major events but a ban on alcohol sponsorship which would be similar to the Loi Évin in France, which is a total outright ban on the sponsorship by alcohol companies of sporting events from top to bottom throughout the system.

The Deputy has raised some valid points around where this proposal would lead us. Obesity is a major issue and there is the issue of the advertising of soft drinks, products with a high level of sugar and fats and all the rest of it. I cannot answer that question. The Department of Heath may well be able to do so and it may be better for the HSE to tell us in what direction it wants to go.

As to where this would lead in terms of local clubs, one would be mistaken to think that a ban on alcohol sponsorship of major events alone would not have any consequences for clubs. We spend about €9.5 million on what we call domestic rugby which is effectively amateur club rugby and schools rugby. Part of that €9.5 million comes from the Government, for which we are grateful, and for every €1 the Government puts in, we put in nearly €3. We get about €2.75 million from the Government, for which we are very grateful, and we spend more than €9 million on domestic rugby. The reality is that our ability to spend money at club level will be dissipated if we do not have the income from alcohol sponsorship to put into our general pot of income along with the income from television and other sponsorships. That is a significant issue.

Another issue is that clubs have their own arrangements. They have their own perimeter boards and arrangements with local sponsors and with bars, some of which provide changing facilities for clubs. This goes right down to grassroots sport and we need to be very careful that we do not unravel something which is very good and positive for the health of the nation and turn it into a disaster.

The Deputy mentioned a number of possible side effects from the imposition of such a ban. A number of dividends flow from sport. We already spoke about one, namely, the health dividend. The Report of the National Taskforce on Obesity stated that the direct and indirect cost of obesity to this country is €4 billion. Who has the cohort of the population within their control where it is possible to manage to do something to help those people, particularly in their formative years, to understand what constitutes a healthy lifestyle? The answer to that question is sport and the major sporting organisations which deliver sport and education in healthy outdoor activity. We need to be very careful here. We have something on the one hand which we are potentially risking, which is the input of sport in terms of doing something positive to tackle the problem of obesity. Are we are going to upset that against a perceived risk around sponsorship by alcohol companies which, if removed, would have some amazing impact on abuse of alcohol? The answer is it probably would not have such an impact. What we would do is risk something much greater, namely, the input of sport in terms of promoting the health of the nation and addressing the problem of obesity.

There are other dividends, the detail of which I do not want to go into. There is the economic dividend in terms of employment, which the Deputy mentioned. Much greater would be the economic loss if sport was not competitive. I refer particularly to our sport, much of which comprises cross-border competitions. We bring huge amounts of money into the economy through international events. A Six Nations match generates about €50 million in economic terms for the city of Dublin and the greater Leinster area, and the economic impact of it extends far beyond Dublin. That is the economic benefit of only one match. The same applies to soccer, hurling and football. We need to be very careful that we do not unravel something which is very good.

The Deputy also mentioned the social impact of sport. Sport, particularly team sports, deliver a number of benefits, namely, education and experience for children in interacting with other people in a responsible fashion, understanding how to deal with winning and losing and understanding their self-awareness and social responsibility. We do not want to lose any of that. We need to be very careful that we understand the consequences of decisions that we take.

Chairman

A mobile phone is causing interference with the recording of the proceedings. I ask people to ensure their mobile phones are turned off.

Mr. John Delaney

Deputy Ellis is familiar with the late night leagues we have organised in the Finglas area and his point in that respect is a fair one. The three points I would make is that if such sponsorship was cut we would not be able to run those programmes as well as we do. As a result of that, there would be more crime, a higher level of obesity and more difficulties in communities, of that there is no question. The Deputy asked about the clubs and he was dead on in what he said. We have 2,600 clubs and many of those would be sponsored by local pubs. It is becoming tougher for clubs to survive in terms of funding through the sale of lottery tickets and other such sales. We receive requests weekly and monthly to assist them. If a club did not have a local bar as a sponsor it would diminish its ability to operate. That is a simple fact.

Mr. Browne has given some funding figures. We hosted the Europa League final here a few years ago but the one on which we are now focused is Euro 2020 which will be hosted in 13 cities. Our board has decided to be one of the applicants to host it and I think we have a decent chance of securing that although it will be difficult. I am on the committee in Europe that decides on the criteria that will apply and one of the models the committee is examining is what local sponsorship would be brought in, in other words, what return from that would go to UEFA. Not being able to have a beverage sponsor would be disastrous in that regard.

Mr. Páraic Duffy

I think the points the Deputy raised have been covered. I share the concern expressed by the Deputy.

Chairman

I will take groups of questions and will not go back to the three representatives for a response to each one but will leave it to them to decide who will respond to each one.

Senator Eamonn Coghlan

I welcome Mr. Páraic Duffy, Mr. Philip Browne and Mr. John Delaney. As someone who has come through a career in sports for the past 50 years at this stage, and that is not saying how old I am, I do not believe that alcohol sponsorship had an effect on my career as a sports person. As a coach and a mentor for many young boys and girls during the past number of years, I see the very positive effect sports have on the development of these young men and women.

Alcohol misuse has not come into the equation with them. I agree 100% with the presentations. I do not believe that banning sponsorship by alcohol companies would have any effect on reducing the misuse of alcohol in Ireland. I commend the GAA, the IRFU, the FAI and all the national governing bodies all around the country and their volunteers who instil incredible confidence in and educate the young people in Ireland. It has already been pointed out that the ban imposed in France in 1991 resulted in a small change at the beginning but the level of alcohol misuse is at or may have exceeded the level that pertained prior to that time. I believe this is a societal issue not just in Ireland but around the world. I also believe it is a cultural issue around sports where alcohol is a friendly means of socialising with one another as opposed to using sports as a way of promoting the misuse of alcohol. It is an educational issue. First and foremost, it is an educational issue at home; it is what the children see going on at home. If parents are heavy drinkers the likelihood is that their children will get involved in alcohol and that they will put peer pressure on their friends whose families may not be involved with alcohol.

A former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Micheál Martin, imposed a ban on smoking in bars and public places. While there are now graphic images on cigarettes packs I do not believe they have had much effect in reducing smoking in Ireland. Therefore, I do not believe that banning the advertising of alcoholic products will have much effect.

In my sport of athletics, for 50 years Nestlé Corporation through the medium of Kit Kat sponsored the Irish schools athletics events. Unfortunately, they were told they could no longer promote Kit Kat products in schools in Ireland because of the obesity levels and the use of chocolate. What happened there? There was a huge void in schools athletics because no company was willing to sponsor the schools athletics programme. It was crazy. Has that reduced the consumption of chocolate among young children in Ireland? Not a chance. If we want to ban the use of chocolate by children it should not be placed at the shop counter beside the till. However, there is somewhat of a paradox here that sports organisations, while they promote healthy lifestyles, also take on board sponsorship from other organisations. I was at the match last night. Most of the witnesses, perhaps, saw the match on television or were there last night. Does anybody know how many advertisements appeared in the Aviva Stadium on the billboards?

Deputy Dessie Ellis

They were very small. It is just that the main one-----

Senator Eamonn Coghlan

Actually there were ten. Four of them, McDonalds, Carlsberg, Lucozade and Tayto, were perhaps the most featured advertisements. Here is the paradox, they were promoting healthy lifestyles except in sponsorship for this game. If we were to ban all of this advertising, from where would the money come? If the Government is serious about promoting healthy lifestyles it will start with the children. If we can identify the amount of money spent on advertising in Ireland by these companies why can the Government not ban them all and increase its sponsorship of sport in Ireland and take the issue seriously? Would the witnesses agree with that?

Deputy Noel Harrington

I welcome the witnesses to the committee. The impact of each of the associations on the social and economic life of the country cannot be underestimated. The sporting personalities, the heroes, who are part of the associations and the union, have far more credibility than anybody in this room. In terms of public perception, people adore them, they follow them, they spend money to watch them and they are important personalities in the life of the country, as are the associations. I read an article last week which indicated that, per capita, Ireland has more arena seats than any other country, bar Iceland as its population is less than 500,000. That is the reality. Sport is a huge phenomenon in Ireland and we tend to punch above our weight. In that respect I take the point about unintended consequences of decisions taken.

However, I also want to touch on some of the issues where advertisers in a diminishing market become very clever in how they get their message across. For example, who would have thought that Arthur's Day would almost have become a national holiday? One cannot have a birthday party unless it is a Carlsberg party or better than the Carlsberg people can do it. This is becoming a part of our lives and it is done subliminally. It is interesting to note how this has happened in a diminishing market. For example, wine consumption is an increasing market and yet I have never heard of any chateauneuf de pape coming in to sponsor anybody. That seems unusual.

At the same time the witnesses speak of a diminishing market and those companies competing among themselves. I submit that three associations are also competing in the market for participants but they have a different dynamic. Those companies get involved to maximise their income. Rather than consider an outright ban or a prohibition on sponsorship, about which I am uncomfortable, is there any proposal by the associations and the union to ratchet up the use of some of their personalities on the message against alcohol misuse? Something like that would have a far greater impact on younger impressionable individuals than the prohibition of alcohol. I do not hear that from some of our greatest personalities in the message against alcohol misuse.

An issue that has not been mentioned is that in the past many of our heroes have fallen victim to alcohol right across the sporting arena. How do the associations and the union use that example to discourage alcohol misuse within the organisations? An issue arises where for somebody who retires from the games there is a vacuum and regrettably that vacuum is easily filled in an inappropriate manner. As many have rehabilitated and gone through the wringer and have come out the other side, their messages would be very valuable to younger people.

Deputy Seán Kenny

I welcome the representatives of the GAA, the FAI and the IRFU to the committee and recognise the vital role they play in regard to sport, particularly for young people. In regard to the alcohol strategy, the report from the steering group stated that the drinks industry sponsorship of sport should be phased out by 2016 and that in the intervening years it should not be increased. It gives some compelling reasons such as that the average age of first alcohol use in children has dropped from the age of 15 to 14, that one in five 16 year olds is a weekly drinker, that four out of ten in the 16 to 21 year old category wear alcohol branded clothing and that in 2007 alcohol related illnesses cost €1.2 billion and alcohol related crime cost €1.9 billion. What does one say to the argument that the alcohol sponsorship of sport is primarily designed to the building of brand presence and to retaining and increasing the market share? That is the rationale for alcohol sponsorship.

Chairman

I invite the witnesses to share out the questions.

Mr. Philip Browne

I will address the last point from Deputy Kenny. The paradox is that the perception is that alcohol advertising is there to increase market share or to increase consumption. This is the basic premise that lies behind the proposals put forward. In other words, the view is that if we do not have alcohol advertising in sport we will have some impact on sales in a positive way in terms of reducing sales of beer. The majority of sponsorship of alcohol in the country is for beer and it is largely around the two major brands of beer, Guinness and Heineken. I pointed out earlier that the reality is that sales have declined by 15% during the past five years, but there is no indication that there has been any reduction in the level of alcohol advertising of either Heineken or Guinness. Therefore, there is no evidence of that linkage. Deputy Harrington noted that wine sales have increased significantly during recent years but the fact is that there is not much advertising by the wine industry in the country. Fundamentally, we do not believe there is any empirical evidence showing the linkage and that is the fundamental issue for us.

Mr. John Delaney

I wish to follow up on Mr. Browne's point. I attribute the figures Deputy Kenny pointed to more to cheap alcohol being available and to wine sales. I will not name the stores but we know where they are. I do not believe the figures are linked to the advertising of alcohol. The real part of this report relates to the price of cheap alcohol and its availability in the country.

Deputy Harrington is correct in that it would be great to use our role models, whether international footballers, top GAA stars or rugby players. That is something we want to do and we are open to working with the HSE and the alcohol companies we are with to put some of the sponsorship fees or spend from them aside to ensure that we can use education. I am in favour of that point; we would love to do it but we need a resolution to this issue before we can implement such a programme.

Chairman

Perhaps Mr. Duffy will comment on that integral point.

Mr. Páraic Duffy

I wish to take up the interesting point Deputy Harrington made about subliminal advertising. He is absolutely correct, it is very effective. Let us suppose that a ban on alcohol sponsorship in sport was introduced. We can assume that the investment the companies make would go elsewhere. They would continue to invest in marketing their products. The money may not go to sport but they would find other ways of investing their money. It would be taken from sport and invested elsewhere. This is important because we have tried to point out today that if there was hard evidence that alcohol sponsorship of sport had an impact on increasing the numbers of young people drinking we would all have to take a totally different line, but the evidence is not there.

A question was asked about player welfare. Our player welfare is conducted largely through the money we give to the GPA. We hand it over to intercounty players. The Deputy is correct. There have been many cases of players with alcohol or gambling addictions and so on. Considerable work is being done to deal with players who find it hard to withdraw from the limelight and so on. The Deputy is correct to state it is a real issue. We are doing that work quietly beneath the radar. We use players from time to time. Often we use our top players to speak in clubs about alcohol education as part of our education programme. The Deputy is correct. Perhaps we need to do more in the public domain but certainly we use our players in that regard.

Deputy Ann Phelan

I apologise for missing most of the presentation. I was driving from Kilkenny this morning and the conditions were not great. Since I come from Kilkenny I could claim that I probably know more about the GAA than I do about the FAI or rugby but we will claim Seán O'Brien, who is from Carlow, as well and there is no problem with that.

(Interruptions).

Chairman

Deputy Phelan has the floor.

Deputy Ann Phelan

I must thank them for our annual outing to Croke Park every year. It strikes me as a paradox that at Government level we are discussing a drink-dependent society but the irony is that we are discussing sporting organisations which are dependent on what drinks companies give them in sponsorship. That is a paradox in itself. I understand the concerns of the delegation. We are here today to try to tease out the issues with a view to telling the Minister where the issues really lie. I take the points of the delegation which suggest that the evidence does not match up to the ban. However, we must face the fact that we have a public health issue to do with alcohol. Wherever that lies and how it affects the organisations in future is what we must tease out.

What work or exploration have the organisations done with other companies? I believe the organisations are not necessarily dependent on the drinks companies; what they are dependent on is the money they supply. If that supply of money could be gotten from someone else, would that answer their problems?

In the GAA the small clubs I am aware of are moving away from the local bar. There is a significant debate going on among parents in the GAA about where they hold their meetings and socials and so on. There is a move to get away from their being held in the local pub. They are trying to give it a more positive view and to hold events in GAA grounds which, sometimes, do not have bars. What exploration have the organisations done in that area?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

I thank the representatives for their presentation. There is a parallel between the hearings we held in recent weeks on the Internet and the hearing today. Some people want to believe that it is possible to close down the Internet or to somehow produce some sort of stick or police force over the Internet. In the same way some people believe naively that by removing a connection between one industry and a sporting organisation we can somehow solve a social ill. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have never seen a 13 year old or 14 year old going to or coming from hurling, football, rugby or soccer training with a naggin of vodka in his hand, but one might find him at a disused railway line or an old industrial estate up to absolutely nothing save for what he should not be up to with a naggin of vodka or, worse, perhaps a couple of flagons of cider.

My general question is whether it is appropriate for a person to push a shopping trolley out the front of a supermarket laden with alcohol and no one asks a question about it, or is it appropriate that a local GAA club runs a table quiz in the local parish pub and gets the publican to provide the sandwiches? That is effectively a sponsorship but it could be banned in future. I speak as someone whose brother is a publican and who supports all codes in Deputy Harrington's constituency in west Cork. I know from speaking to him that whether it is a table quiz, a 1980s night, a darts tournament or even if it is providing glasses or bunting for some sporting events, all of this is up on the table and people should be very careful. It is not simply about the Heineken Cup or the Guinness hurling championship; the under-18 or under-16 blitz could be affected inadvertently and I am concerned about that.

I realise there is commercial sensitivity with regard to the amounts but it is important to get a ballpark figure for the amounts of money at issue nationally. Deputy Phelan is perfectly correct to ask whether there is an alternative. I know from a Government point of view that it is simply not a runner. As Mr. Delaney pointed out, the overall amount has halved during the past four or five years when one takes into consideration VAT and so on. If we are to pretend that we can maintain an international semblance of sport for the IRFU, the GAA, through the international matches with the Australians, and the FAI and have codes at home at the same time, then we need to examine this in detail.

If we are going to pretend that we can maintain an international sporting presence for the IRFU and the GAA, through the latter's international matches with the Australians, and through the FAI, while at the same time having codes at home, we need to study in detail how much is involved and where. I do not know any industry that can afford to stump up the type of money that is being spoken about here in a diminishing market. We need to tread very carefully. The facilities provided by the codes in my own county, whether at parish, county or provincial level, have massive debts which somebody has to service. Part of the servicing involves bringing people in to see a game or match and that requires a sponsor. Without a sponsor the game or tournament cannot go ahead. These are implications that people need to consider carefully. I understand the commercial sensitivity but it would do us a great favour if we knew the ballpark figure.

Chairman

We will get somebody to answer that question. I call Deputy Eamonn Maloney.

Deputy Eamonn Maloney

I welcome the witnesses from the three organisations.

I totally support a ban and have done so for some considerable time. Ireland is recognised worldwide as a sporting nation despite its small population. Historically, because of its surplus cash the drinks industry has been able to use organisations such as those here today as a sort of cover. It gives the industry some respectability, because it treats alcohol as a harmless substance like Ballygowan. Several people have mentioned the dilemma posed by the drinks industry's support of the three codes here because it does not contribute to additional sales for the brands. I agree but that is not what the drinks industry is up to. In the 1990s the French Government exposed the issue and took its decision. The same happened in Spain. No other industry in this country can compare with the drinks industry which is so lucrative because it has so much cash.

People argue that people's drinking habits have changed and more drink wine but we do not see wine producers sponsoring sport. Wine drinking has been on the increase since the introduction of cheap flights and we discovered we could be trendy and drink wine. When the consumption of wine starts to go down we will see whether the producers will be prepared to get involved in sponsorship.

There is a great difficulty, not just for sportsmen and the organisations here today, but for us as legislators although it costs the taxpayer €3.4 billion annually. Imagine the standard of living Irish people would have if they did not have to fork out €3.4 billion for policing, accident and emergency services, court hearings, etc. To quote a former Taoiseach, we would be the richest country in the world. We have a real difficulty with alcohol. It is the national drug. We have difficulty saying this and owning up to it. As legislators we have not been good at doing anything about it. People have spoken about obesity caused by people eating too much take-away food and chocolate. I have never in my life heard of a man over-consuming chocolate and going home and beating up his wife or going onto the street after over-consuming take-away food and beating up gardaí or his neighbour or whoever. We have a difficulty here and the drinks industry gets cover which I think should be taken away. Then we should move on to dealing with the real issues. We have an obsession with talking about under-age drinking. There is under-age drinking but there is also over-age drinking and I speak as one who consumes alcohol. It is the national drug. I enjoy my alcohol but I do not make a full-time job of it and I do not think anyone else should.

Chairman

I do not expect the witnesses to answer all those questions, especially the detail in the last three but I would appreciate an answer in particular to the question Deputy O'Donovan asked about the ballpark figure.

Mr. John Delaney

In response to Deputy Phelan's first point, I was in Freshford on Sunday delivering soccer medals. There is a lovely soccer club there.

There are category sponsorships. Our main sponsor is 3, our apparel sponsor is Umbro and there are other sponsorships. Our beverage sponsor is Carlsberg. If there were any other categories we could find to get added commercial revenues we would do so but we cannot. The potential to raise extra money is not there. If it was we would be there. That is my first point.

In response to Deputy O'Donovan, we earn €6 million every year in commercial revenue from all our sponsors. We have only one beverage sponsor, Carlsberg. I would tell the committee the figure confidentially at some other stage but I cannot put it on the public record today because we have a confidentially agreement with that company. It would be unfair to people with whom we had a bidding process if I were to say today how much we get from one sponsor. I cannot do it but Carlsberg's sponsorship would be a significant part of that €6 million.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Maybe the sporting organisations could give us a cumulative, national amount later. We need to know how much it is because we need to know if there is an alternative.

Mr. Philip Browne

I would be quite happy to do that. I can give a cumulative amount for rugby from national down to club level. It works out at approximately €9 million a year.

Mr. John Delaney

I would have no problem sharing our national figure, within a cumulative figure. In response to Deputy Maloney. I respect his views. He is entitled to them, as everybody is but he should not blame the sporting bodies for the abuse of alcohol. We are doing more good work getting people in our society fit. If the alcohol sponsorship is taken away the effect on the State would be greater because that money will not be spent on making kids active, particularly in socially-deprived areas.

Mr. Páraic Duffy

Deputy Phelan raised some very good points about local clubs. In a way Deputy Harrington answered the questions. At local level we would not want to see clubs holding their AGMs, etc., in bars. Most do not because we have clear guidelines on that. Generally speaking, the attitude is responsible. Deputy Phelan came at this from an interesting angle and made some good points.

In response to Deputy Maloney, as one of the non-drinkers to whom Deputy Ellis referred I can say that we are starting from the position that alcohol is not inherently bad. People should enjoy it. We all want a balanced approach and we do not always have that in this country. If someone could show us evidence that alcohol sponsorship of sport is contributing to an increase in, or to the level of, drinking I would like to hear those arguments. In their absence I strongly believe that Government should be investing in education. The money that the GAA has invested with the help of the HSE has had a really positive return in terms of changing attitudes towards the use of alcohol among people in the GAA. It has been extremely positive.

That is the way I would like us to proceed.

In terms of the figures, I had the same difficulty as Mr. Delaney. We have only one sponsor at national level. The amounts of money involved at local level are small. It usually amounts to a local bar buying a set of jerseys. We have got only one sponsor. I would be happy to have that sponsorship figure included but I am not going to let the FAI and the IRFU know what we are getting from one sponsor. However, I would be happy to have the figure included as part of a cumulative figure. We could easily say this sponsorship does not matter to us but I honestly believe that imposing a crude ban on alcohol sponsorship of sport in general in Ireland would take money out of sport. I do not believe it would address the problem to which Deputy Maloney rightly referred. I respect the Deputy's views but I do not believe that is the way forward The way to proceed is through investment in education. No bodies can do more in that regard than the three represented here today.

Chairman

We have two more questioners, Deputies Michael Colreavy and Luke 'Ming' Flanagan. I call Deputy Colreavy.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

I thank the representatives for coming before the committee today. The context for our discussion on this issue is a report which stated that for the year 2008, 1,000 people per annum die from illnesses associated with the abuse of alcohol. Some 2,000 hospital bed nights every year are related to illnesses associated with alcohol abuse and it costs the State in the region of €1.2 billion per annum to deal with this.

Some people will be at a loss to know why this committee is examining this phenomenon. If we banned sponsorship of sports altogether, I do not think that would totally overturn those figures. There is little enough evidence to show that the sponsorship of sports by alcohol companies contributes a large percentage to those figures. I caught the last half hour of the match last night and I would say cardiac stress had as much influence in terms of my health.

I understand this committee is examining this issue from the perspective of communications.

Chairman

It is from the perspective of sport; sport is under our remit.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

I could understand a detailed discussion on this taking place in the Department of Health or at the enterprise committee. In terms of sport and the communications end of it, I accept the work the organisations represented are doing. I am very familiar in my own area with the great work that is being done by the sporting organisations in getting young people involved in sport. It is not those young people who are the problem; it is the others who do not get involved in sporting organisations.

I would make a suggestion under the communications hat of this committee. Messages are broadcast on television from the Health Promotion Unit and the Road Safety Authority about the dangers of alcohol abuse. I am not sure that the target audience is listening to the people who present those messages. Perhaps we should consider the use of household names, our heroes in sport, to deliver the safe drinking message, perhaps in conjunction with the Health Promotion Unit.

Chairman

That has been dealt with already.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

That would be my suggestion.

Chairman

An answer was given on that already but the Deputy can repeat that point. I call Deputy Luke 'Ming' Flanagan.

Deputy Luke 'Ming' Flanagan

I thank the representatives for their presentations and for making the lives of everyone in this country an awful lot more interesting. Sport promotes health and well-being. I am involved in sport myself; I am involved in a snooker club and a kayaking club, and I do a lot of running and have run marathons, etc. If it was not for the organisations represented here, we could multiply the figure in terms of the damage that is done by obesity and alcohol abuse. Sport is also good from a mental health point of view. I do not know what I would on a Saturday if I could not follow, difficult and all as it is, QPR's results or those of Sligo Rovers at the weekend. It would mean that life would be much duller. For that, the representatives' organisations must be commended and well done to them.

The most important point made here today was made by Deputy Ann Phelan, namely, that the organisations have become dependent on the alcohol industry, and that is an awful pity. We need to establish exactly how dependent in monetary terms they have become on this industry. Ultimately, the organisations represented want to do what they do, namely, promote sport and to be successful at it. If they could do that without alcohol sponsorship in the morning, I believe they would run a mile from it. It is not good for the organisations and it is not good for young people that they are connected with it. As many people have said, we need to establish how much money the organisations get from the alcohol industry and how that can be replaced. We can throw into the mix a figure floating around that alcohol abuse costs this state €3 billion or more a year, depending on the figures one goes by. If that harm was reduced by 1%, that would result in a saving of €30 million. Would the saving of that amount cover the sponsorship figure? We need to consider this in a more holistic way and to consider the overall picture. While it would be a challenge to move away from alcohol sponsorship, I am firmly of the belief that it is unhealthy that there is any connection with alcohol.

Do we need a scientific study to tell us that it is a bad thing for an eight year old boy to walk around wearing a jersey with an alcohol advertisement on the front of it? We need to move away from that. The issue of Kit Kat and other product sponsorship was mentioned. Should such sponsorship also be banned? I would not go for a ban on outside alcohol advertising but sporting organisations need to look at the bigger picture. The bigger picture is that if children eat less sweet, rubbish and take-aways from McDonald's or wherever, we will have a higher standard of sportsperson. However, in order to achieve any of this, we need to kill the dependence sport has on the alcohol industry and on some other areas which do not help our health.

No one refers to the European Rugby Cup by that title; they refer to it as the Heineken Cup. That, to me, demeans what is a phenomenally good and exciting tournament. It has brought rugby to areas where people were not interested in it. However, do we need to have Heineken involved? Guinness sponsorship was also mentioned. The GAA's connection with Guinness unfortunately perpetuates the myth that Guinness is good for one. I like a pint, I like a pint of Guinness and I like a few pints but I am under no illusion that it is good for me because it is not. It is anything but good for one. As long as the organisations represented are connected to this industry, the more that myth can be perpetuated. I believe that alcohol advertising should be banned. I do not see the purpose of it. If any other substance such as cannabis was legalised in the future, the advertising of it should also be banned.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Luke 'Ming' Flanagan

There is no need to push a substance like alcohol because people will use it anyway. The last thing we need is a sporting organisation connected with it. Hopefully people will see sense in that a 1% reduction in alcohol abuse in this country could yield €30 million. That would go a long way towards reducing the dependence on alcohol sponsorship of the organisations represented. It would also stop them having to come in here and nearly argue that it is not a bad thing when in fact such sponsorship is not in anyone's interest.

Chairman

Deputy John O'Mahony wants to make to brief point before I call the three presenters for their final comments.

Deputy John O'Mahony

It is a related issue regarding the perception of alcohol. It relates to the policy on big match days at the Aviva Stadium, Croke Park or wherever. My question was prompted by an article by Alan Quinlan after one of the matches this year where the crowd did not take their seats until ten minutes after half time. I have been in stadiums around the world where supporters have brought drinks out onto the terraces, which portrays an awful image. I think the opposite is the policy here. I would like the three representatives to articulate the policy of their organisations on big match days as regards the bars and bringing drinks out onto the terraces.

Chairman

I ask the three representatives, starting with Mr. Duffy and followed by Mr. Browne and Mr. Delaney, to answer the questions put to them and to give a summary comment.

Mr. Páraic Duffy

I will respond to a fair question by Deputy Phelan that was not answered. She asked whether we could not look for alternative sponsors. Mr. Browne and Mr. Delaney may answer for themselves. The sponsorship market for sport has never been more difficult than it is now, and the first challenge is to retain sponsors. The revenue generated from sources other than the alcoholic drinks industry and all other forms of sponsorship has fallen considerably. We have all suffered in that regard.

Senator Coghlan mentioned sponsorship by Nestlé's Kit Kat brand. It is very hard to get alternative sponsors. It presents a considerable challenge. I accept Deputy Flanagan's point that, in a perfect world with other available sponsors, alcohol industry sponsors might not be on the top of one's list. At present, alternative sponsors are really hard to get.

On Deputy Flanagan's point on alcohol, Guinness and alcohol being bad for one, that is not what this debate is about. If it is so bad, we should be talking about banning alcohol. We are talking about the effect of alcohol sponsorship on sport and drinking habits. We are entitled to say that there appears to be no evidence to back up the fact that sponsorship of sports by the alcohol industry has an impact in terms of consumption or abuse. With regard to children, none of the organisations allows any form of alcohol sponsorship on chairs.

I was asked about the cost. Australia recently introduced a system whereby some of the sporting bodies that withdrew from alcohol advertising were compensated by the Government. Perhaps that is what the members have in mind. If so, it is certainly a route that we would all be interested in considering.

Deputy Luke 'Ming' Flanagan

That is exactly what I have in mind.

Mr. Páraic Duffy

That is a fair point to make. It is reasonable to ask, however, whether our Government could afford to take this approach at present. It is a fair point nevertheless.

Deputy Luke 'Ming' Flanagan

Can we afford not to do it?

Mr. Páraic Duffy

We would be very happy to explore it.

Mr. John Delaney

We are not dependent on alcohol sponsorship. When I took over the association in the mid-1990s, the turnover was €7 million. Last year, we had a turnover of €40 million. However, we spend that money on developing the game. If I had €50 million, I would spend it on this. We are not like the plc that seeks a dividend for shareholders. We put all the money we get into sport; it is as simple as that.

I reiterate that our priority is player development. We played 150 international matches last year. We have a huge player development programme and emerging talent all over the country. In the nine years I have been in my post, with the support of my board, I have run a considerable number of social programmes. I do not want to lose those. Consider what would occur if I had a priority list. The Irish public ultimately wants to see a national team doing well. Last night was evidence of that. Had we won by two goals to one, today would be a different day for me.

If we end up losing alcohol industry sponsorship, it will mean taking money from our programmes, which will have a greater damaging effect on the community. That is the point I am trying to put across. Generally, we do not sell alcohol in general admission areas in the Aviva Stadium. It is sold only in the premium levels. That is an Aviva rule for competitive matches. Only soft drinks would be sold in the general admission areas for competitive matches.

Deputy John O'Mahony

Is it allowed out in the stadium?

Mr. John Delaney

No.

Mr. Philip Browne

With regard to Deputy Flanagan's point, I echo what Mr. Delaney said. Ours is a not-for-profit organisation just like the GAA and FAI. The reality is that if we have less income coming in, we can do less. We are not dependent on it but would obviously like to make a contribution to society. It costs money. Sport can only be delivered by people, and it is delivered in the main by volunteers. Ultimately, in order to orchestrate and manage volunteers, one has to spend money on professional staff and resourcing clubs around the country. The money is spent on people and programmes, effectively to support the voluntary system.

With regard to what happens in the Aviva Stadium for rugby matches, alcohol is available from when the turnstiles are opened until the stadium is closed.

Deputy John O'Mahony

Are spectators allowed to bring alcohol to their seats?

Chairman

I thank the representatives of the three organisations, the members and non-members. There is no doubt but that there is great interest in the subject. The problem of the sporting organisations is ascertaining where funding can be found. That is the real issue and it has come across quite clearly today. We will be revisiting the subject. I thank all in attendance for their interest and attention.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.15 a.m. until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 17 April 2013.