Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Wednesday, 25 May 2022

Medical Bureau of Road Safety: Chairperson Designate

Chairman

The purpose of this meeting is to engage with the chairs designate of the Medical Bureau of Road Safety and Shannon Group. The meeting will comprise two sessions. On behalf of the committee, I welcome to the first session the chair designate of the Medical Bureau of Road Safety, Dr. Declan Bedford. I thank him for attending. We look forward to his opening presentation.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statement is potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members that the Constitution requires them to be physically present in the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate when they are not able to meet this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be reluctantly asked to leave the meeting. I ask any member participating using Microsoft Teams to confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making their contributions. Members attending in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I ask Dr. Bedford to make his opening statement.

Dr. Declan Bedford

My name is Declan Bedford. I am a specialist in public health medicine with a particular interest in alcohol and road safety. I graduated from University College Dublin in 1976 and worked as a specialist in public health medicine with the HSE and as director of public health in the north east for seven years until my retirement from the HSE in August 2012. I am a fellow of the faculty of public health medicine of the Royal College of Physicians of Ireland.

For three years, from 2015 to 2017, I was employed part-time by the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, RCSI, as health systems research and development adviser to the RCSI Hospitals Group. In March 2020, I came out of retirement to work as a specialist in public health during the first wave of Covid for three months and again from January to June 2021. My main responsibilities in that time were working with nursing homes and meat factories.

I am currently chairman of the quality, safety and risk committee of the National Screening Service. I will complete my term of office there at the end of this month. I have been involved in research for many years and my published research covers a wide range of public health topics, including suicide and mental health, alcohol, men’s health, injury prevention, infectious diseases, health services and use of hospital services.

Regarding board experience, I have been a board member of the Medical Bureau of Road Safety since 2015 and chairman since 2017. I am a former member of the North Eastern Health Board, the Drug Treatment Centre Board and the board of the faculty of public health medicine. I was also one of the founding members of Alcohol Action Ireland and was a board member for many years until the end of 2021.

I was chairman of the Health Research Board for five years from 2012 to 2017. The HRB is a statutory agency under the aegis of the Department of Health and the lead agency in Ireland responsible for supporting and funding health research.

I was chairman of the working party on traffic medicine in the Royal College of Physicians in Ireland as part of the national programme office for traffic medicine for seven years until January of this year. This office was jointly established by Royal College of Physicians in Ireland and the Road Safety Authority of Ireland in 2011, bringing the specialty of traffic medicine to Ireland for the first time. The goal is to help doctors and licensing authorities promote safe mobility in Ireland. The best-known element of traffic medicine is the need for medical certification showing fitness to drive and we published guidelines on fitness to drive called Sláinte agus Tiomáint, which are updated annually.

As chairman of the Medical Bureau of Road Safety, I will continue to work to ensure that the bureau continues to achieve its mission to provide a high-quality national forensic service in alcohol and drug intoxicant detection in support of the effective operation of the road traffic legislation. I will work with the director and other board members to ensure that we continue to review how we operate on an ongoing basis to ensure that we comply with the code of practice for the governance of State bodies.

I will work with the director and other board members to ensure that we continue to implement our five-year strategic plan and objectives which include: to continue to provide a high-quality national forensic service in alcohol and drug analysis, the provision of bureau certificates and court assistance; to maintain the ISO accreditation status achieved for analytical programmes within the bureau and to extend the accreditation to additional areas; to adapt and incorporate into bureau activities any new legislation requirements; to build up a forensic toxicology knowledge base within the bureau scientific staff; to ensure that all the work in the bureau is maintained and improved where possible to a high standard of quality that is required of a national forensic laboratory in an efficient and cost-effective way; to maintain effective management systems and operate within best accounting practices and frameworks.

Deputy Joe Carey

Dr. Bedford is very welcome. I thank him for his opening statement. There is no doubt that he is very well qualified to do this role. He has wealth of experience. I thank him for his efforts in our struggles against Covid and for coming out of retirement and taking up that role. Where are the offices of the Medical Bureau of Road Safety situated? How many people work there? How many tests does it deal with per week or per month? What is the turnaround time for testing? There seems to be an increasing prevalence of drugs within society. Would it be fair to say there is an increasing detection of drugs among people driving? What is the percentage breakdown between alcohol and drugs? Is that percentage increasing?

When did the five-year strategic plan and objectives come into being? When will that be reviewed? Does that plan follow international best practice? Has the bureau looked at other jurisdictions throughout the world including the UK and European countries? Does it follow a particular model that is already in place?

Dr. Declan Bedford

The Medical Bureau of Road Safety has a building of its own on the campus of UCD In Belfield. It was purpose built. It started in 1968. It we have a relationship with UCD in that all our staff are paid via UCD while being a totally independent unit. We have approximately four staff with a few more promised in the near future.

The business is a laboratory examining samples of blood and urine to detect the presence of alcohol and drugs. The main culprit at present is still alcohol. However, drugs are trending upwards. As the Deputy hinted, they are likely to continue to increase if more drug use takes place because a rising tide will bring up all ships. The prevalence of drug taking has been increasing with cannabis and other drugs. We have found an increase in the past two years and it is becoming more serious. Some gardaí on patrol say that it is only a matter of time before drugs and driving becomes more prevalent than drinking and driving. The commonest drug is cannabis.

Canada legalised cannabis use in 2018 and the studies that have been carried out thus far are equivocal. Some studies show an increase in crashes and some do not. However, they have found a 5% increase in cannabis taking since it was legalised. People can go into a designated shop and buy cannabis and, therefore, it is likely to increase. If people smoke cannabis or take other drugs and drive, they will drive until they get caught. The research in Ireland is very clear. I did some of it myself many years ago and it has been followed up since. For men in particular, why do they obey the rules of the road and not speed and drink and drive? It is not from goodwill. The fear of getting caught is the only deterrent. As with everything else we need highly visible enforcement and that works.

As the Deputy has probably noticed, during the first wave of the pandemic in 2020 the number of detections increased. Even though fewer people were driving, there were Garda checkpoints and people were presenting themselves and did not realise they were presenting themselves because Garda checkpoints related to Covid ended up picking up more people. The number of positive samples we got in 2020 was 23% higher than in 2019. While we have not finalised the figures for last year, it looks like it has levelled off at that level now. It is much the same and has not continued to increase.

Deputy Joe Carey

How many tests does the bureau do in a week or a month?

Dr. Declan Bedford

I have a copy of the annual report, which contains those figures. If anyone is interested in reading our annual report, it is available on our website.

Chairman

Is that for 2020?

Dr. Declan Bedford

Yes. We cannot publish our annual report until we get clearance on finances from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Chairman

When will the 2021 annual report be published?

Dr. Declan Bedford

It will be later in the year.

Chairman

It is based on the Comptroller and Auditor General-----

Dr. Declan Bedford

As part of our annual report, we must confirm that we are legitimate with our money and all the rest of that stuff.

Chairman

Does Dr. Bedford have figures for 20-----

Dr. Declan Bedford

I will just get the figures for 2020 now.

Chairman

Does Dr. Bedford have figures for 2021?

Dr. Declan Bedford

No, but they look like they will be the same as for 2020. There was a big rise in 2020 but not in 2021.

In 2020, the number of specimens received by the bureau looking for alcohol in blood and urine was 5,967 or almost 6,000 while, in 2019, it was 4,854. That was a 23% increase and preliminary indications are that it stayed that way last year. The number of evidential breath tests was 3,278, which was down somewhat from the previous year's 5,300. It is because more blood samples are being taken now.

Over the years we are trending upwards in drugs.

Deputy Joe Carey

Is there a prevalence of cocaine in that?

Dr. Declan Bedford

Cocaine is not the commonest. The commonest one is cannabis. We test for cocaine and that is up less. For 2020, we had just over 2,500 cannabis and 1,500 cocaine. Benzodiazepines, drugs such as Valium and that-----

Chairman

Can Dr. Bedford repeat that?

Dr. Declan Bedford

Sorry, I beg your pardon.

Chairman

For 2020-----

Dr. Declan Bedford

It is 2,612, to be exact, for cannabis.

Chairman

Yes.

Dr. Declan Bedford

The figures were 1,499 for cocaine. As I said, benzodiazepines are Valium-type drugs, and the figure is 790. The figure for opiates is 459, and for amphetamines the figure is 193.

Chairman

What is the full figure?

Dr. Declan Bedford

The full figure is 4,489.

Deputy Joe Carey

When does Dr. Bedford expect have a new five-year strategy?

Dr. Declan Bedford

We do it slightly differently. We review our plan every year and roll it for another five years.

Deputy Joe Carey

It is rolled over.

Dr. Declan Bedford

We roll it over.

Deputy Joe Carey

Has the bureau looked at other jurisdictions?

Dr. Declan Bedford

Yes.

Deputy Joe Carey

Where would it home in on?

Dr. Declan Bedford

It is an international thing. All of the equipment used is not made in Ireland; it is all international. We examine best practice in regard to that. With regard to the accreditation, the International Organization for Standardization, ISO, operates the standards. It is a very-----

Deputy Joe Carey

It is recognised.

Dr. Declan Bedford

Yes. The United Kingdom, the United States and Canada are included in that.

Deputy Joe Carey

I wish Dr. Bedford well in his tenure.

Dr. Declan Bedford

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I welcome Dr. Bedford. His CV is very impressive and he brings a lot of expertise to this. Unfortunately, a lot of the work he does is probably of a tragic nature because, no more than the Road Safety Authority, he is delving into the cause of accidents, their aftermath etc.

I would like to take up a number of points, following Deputy Carey's questions. I refer to drug-driving. For decades, we have all been familiar with drink-driving. Younger generations have come to grips with that and there are designated drivers who have soft drinks or zero alcohol beer on a night out. In terms of drug taking, a term was bandied about years ago, namely "functional alcoholics", that is, people have a few glasses of wine every night of the year and can still, whether doctors say they can, get up the following morning, get to work and do a day's work. We are now hearing there are also functional drug takers who can go into a bar at night, snort cocaine and then claim they are able to go into a job the following day, some of which are high-powered, high-paid jobs, and function in that regard. Does that concern Dr. Bedford? It is something he is seeing more of? He has given us some statistics, but functional alcoholics will, no matter what the law tells them, get into their cars with the keys and drive. Is he seeing an increase in terms of functional drug taking and people carrying on as normal the following day?

Dr. Declan Bedford

We do not see it, but studies have been done by the Health Research Board and other international groups do European-wide studies on the prevalence of intoxicants. Many people, in particular younger people who have not always seen the tragic consequences of addiction, think they can function after a hard night out and will be fine the next day. Overall, it catches up on people. For example, a functional alcoholic might be able to get away with addiction on a day-to-day basis, but alcohol over a lifetime is one of the leading causes of cancer. Some 10% of the cases of breast cancer in women are caused by alcohol. People never think of that. They do not think of all of the other side effects of being a functional alcoholic, such as the expense and the fact they are more likely to get into fights and arguments inside and outside of home.

The evidence is clear from a driving point of view. Any amount of alcohol is detrimental to one's driving. There are alcoholics who have difficulty with driving and have been caught drink-driving. One of the actions in the new national road safety strategy is to examine an interlock system in cars. People would have to breathe into an apparatus in a car and it would not work without the correct result. The evidence is they will work as part of a programme, because the problem with a lot of alcoholics in Ireland is there is no effective treatment service for them. To keep people off alcohol, they have to be part of a treatment service. A working party is examining the use of interlock systems. I am sure when it finishes that work, it will say it will have to be part of a complete rehabilitation programme for alcoholics. People can recover, but too many people fall by the wayside. It is difficult.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

In April 2017, An Garda Síochána took on a role in drug testing on the side of our roads. I believe the test is used is the Dräger DrugTest 5000, an oral fluids test. If I understand correctly, it can pick up traces of opiates, cocaine, benzodiazepines and cannabis. The whole world of drugs is evolving by the day. There are pills and small tablets I have never heard of, some of which were discussed on "Prime Time" recently. If that test, dating back to 2017, is what most Garda cards are kitted out with, is it up to date? Is it able to detect everything?

Dr. Declan Bedford

The test is fine and our machines are regularly reviewed and updated. In fact, we are out to tender for some machines. They have to go through a vigorous accreditation prospect process first because the machines get better. In the laboratory, blood samples come in and when we find a blood sample where the blood alcohol level is less than 100, we test for drugs, including an array of drugs that are only coming on the market. As they are not known to anybody, they are not illegal.

At the moment, we are testing for drugs from a legal point of view, such as, as the Deputy mentioned, cannabis, cocaine, benzos and amphetamines. The interesting thing about benzodiazepines is, as I mentioned, one of them is Valium, which the Deputy might have heard of. People are prescribed that. People may wonder if they are stopped and have a legitimate prescription how they could be fined. People with a legitimate prescription who are taking the right dose are not breaking the law by the mere fact of a positive test. In that case, the issue is whether the person is fit to drive on the day. Gardaí have to make a decision as to whether the person is fit. If a person is not legitimately prescribed a drug, then there is an automatic penalty.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I was making notes. As I see it, the killers on the road are speed, drink- and drug-driving, bad driving, which will always be a factor, and fatigue, which is very hard to measure. I do not drink or take drugs and drive, but I find fatigue something I have tried to overcome when I am coming to the Dáil early in the morning and late at night. Many people face that. I do not suppose Dr. Bedford has any metrics on that. I am sure it is impossible to measure.

Dr. Declan Bedford

We do not, but we know it is becoming very prevalent and has been recognised in the past ten or 15 years as a serious cause of road crashes. We can sometimes tell what the cause of a road crash is, such as where somebody has been driving, falls asleep and hit something without using the brakes. People who are in a crash when awake slam the brakes on. Somebody may crash into a tree having come off the road and were not paying attention because they fell asleep. The interesting thing is we have all felt tired while driving. Sometimes when we feel tired while driving we open a window, turn the radio up and do other things. They do not work. People have to get out of the car and take a ten or 15-minute break, have a cup of coffee and go for a walk. My car tells me when to take a break.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

Very good.

Dr. Declan Bedford

It was quite interesting that I had this feature in the car for a number of years and it never said anything to me. One night I was coming back from Galway at about 1 a.m. I live in Navan and was an hour and a half into the journey when the car told me I was looking tired and to stop. It worked. The national road strategy proposes that by 2050 there be zero deaths and injuries. All of that technology will have to be involved. The main message about driving while tired is there is no way of stopping it except for getting out of the car, having a ten-minute nap, getting some fresh air or having a cup of coffee.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank Dr. Bedford for his time and wish him the very best in his tenure.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

In a similar manner to colleagues, I wish Dr. Bedford the very best of luck in his tenure at thank him for all of his work to date, including during Covid. I have some questions on the technology that is being used, which he mentioned in his response to Deputy Carey. Is he satisfied with the equipment? Is there a need for improvement? Is it up to the best standard possible? I assume given the changing nature of intoxicants, the technology moves with the times.

My background is in laboratory medicine. I presume some sort of chromatography is involved.

Dr. Declan Bedford

Yes.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I think the ISO standard for laboratories is 15189. Dr. Bedford said he is interested in bringing other areas under that standard. I realise it is an arduous job. Where does he envisage the expansion?

I have a question on the positivity rates. Dr. Bedford gave us the figures. Is there an increasing number of positives or are we getting more samples per year, for example? Could Dr. Bedford make a point on that?

How would Dr. Bedford like to see the service develop during the period in question? What are the challenges and opportunities?

Dr. Declan Bedford

I thank the Deputy. The ISO standard is 17025. Our analytical programmes have that accreditation. We are looking at other areas of business in this regard. Our equipment is always up to date and the best, and that is why we keep tendering. The equipment has a lifespan. It is a matter of staying with the best and ensuring it is as accurate, sensitive and specific as possible. Our staff train the members of the Garda and check all the equipment regularly to ensure it is performing properly. Since road safety fines represent one of the most challenging areas of legislation, the equipment has to be very good. The standards are very high.

The Deputy asked about the positivity rates. Of the approximately 4,800 samples we got, 2,151, or a little less than half, were positive. Sixty-six percent of those were positive for cannabis, 46% for cocaine, 8% for opiates and 5% for benzodiazepines. We encounter cases of polydrug or multiple drug use. In the new road safety strategy, it is recommended that we consider increasing the penalties for the use of more than one substance. A person might test positive for alcohol and one or two other drugs. If a motorist is positive for two drugs, the penalty should be higher than for one.

Regarding where we look forward to going, what we do is based purely on the legislation. If the legislation changes the limit for a new drug, that is where we go. We respond to the legislation rather than doing otherwise. However, we have to keep researching the trends also. When drug trends begin to emerge, people recommend to the Oireachtas Members or others the inclusion of such and such in the legislation.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

From an analytical perspective, are there emerging drugs that are proving more difficult? What is the position on the technology in this regard?

Does Dr. Bedford have a perspective on the breathalyser technology? Does he have any role in-----

Dr. Declan Bedford

I do not have a particular role in that; it is too technical for me. I would be only chancing my arm if I went into the technical detail on it.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

No problem.

Dr. Declan Bedford

However, the breathalysers and all the equipment are regularly checked. Also, we regularly check to see whether there is something better. We have to keep replacing equipment all the time. There is a programme for doing that. As I stated, we are out to tender at present for some of our machinery. A number of tenders have come in. They have to go through a process of rigorous testing to ensure they do what they say on the tin.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

They must be validated. That is very good. I thank Dr. Bedford.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I welcome Dr. Bedford to the meeting. I have absolute confidence in his qualifications and experience.

I propose that the committee engage further with the Medical Bureau of Road Safety following today's meeting. Its annual report for 2020 is an extraordinary piece of work that the committee should examine. A report earlier this year revealed a trebling in the number of drivers behind the wheel after taking cocaine. Second, the increase in the taking of alcohol and drugs while driving is a worry. What is more worrying is that nine out of ten of those responsible are male. Could Dr. Bedford comment on what committee members should report to the Minister and Road Safety Authority? I recognise that the Medical Bureau of Road Safety does not have a role similar to that of the Road Safety Authority but could have a twin-track approach to improving road safety.

Dr. Declan Bedford

I agree with that. The percentage of those we have tested positive for cocaine over the past three years has not changed; it has stayed very much the same. It was about 8% in 2019, 8% in 2018 and 8% in 2017. However, there is an increase in the amount of drug-taking overall in Ireland, so it will filter through eventually to driving.

On the question on males, unfortunately it is the case, not just in Ireland, that most dangerous and reckless driving is done by younger males. That is not to say it is not also done by females and older men but younger men tend to take too many risks. They have a great belief in their own ability to drive but do not have the experience to match that.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

It is a very fair point.

Dr. Declan Bedford

I am sure that when we were younger, we drove faster than we do now. We do not see the hazards. Another problem is that when young men are with their mates in the car, there are high jinks and 100% attention is not paid to the road. That is contrary to the trend among others. When they have a passenger in the car, they are safer because there is another set of eyes on the road. The difficulty with the young men is that they do not have the experience, are full of life and take too many chances. Therefore, they will be involved in crashes and bad decision-making. That is common the world over, unfortunately. The trend is similar among the ladies, even though the percentage is much lower. While only 25% of the crashes involve ladies, the number is higher in the younger age group.

When you look at the number of road crashes, it is remarkable that about 25% of fatal road crashes involve speed and about 30% to 35% involve alcohol or drugs. One of the extraordinary things about road safety is that 26% of people involved in such crashes were not wearing a seat belt. This seems extraordinary in this day and age. I went to the Garda headquarters and reviewed 900 deaths over a period spanning a couple of years. It was a bit harrowing at times. One person who had been drinking and who had gone home to his bed was rung by a friend who said he could not get home. He went out to collect him, not having driven earlier that night, and he ended up getting killed. There was another case in which I saw an unfinished text by the driver. As the Deputy mentioned before, the crashes are harrowing. Unfortunately, young males are the biggest problem.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

In my next question, I will be putting Dr. Bedford on the spot although I do not mean to. I am confused by a statement on page 21 of the 2020 annual report. It states 86 station-based systems were available and that 43 of those were available for use outside the station. It adds that, in total, 87 analysers were available exclusively for mobile use. I am curious as to what that actually means. Maybe Dr. Bedford might revert to me on it if he cannot answer today.

Dr. Declan Bedford

There are some stationary ones and some mobile ones. It is probably about the adding up. The Deputy suggested he would not mind having representatives of the Medical Bureau of Road Safety back some day and that would be no problem for director or me.

The director is Professor Denis Cusack. We could discuss the technicalities of any question the Senator has in that regard.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

In preparing for today's meeting, I read the 2019 and 2020 reports on the bureau's website, which is fascinating. The amount of available data is unbelievable. That is why I asked the question. I was not in any way trying to trip up Dr. Bedford. There is analysis of difference by county and charts indicating what happens at different times of the day, including the mornings, afternoons and weekend. It is curious that the numbers on Mondays are higher than a Friday, for example.

Dr. Declan Bedford

Those figures may officially be for Monday but they will have taken in the latter part of Sunday night. They would be after midnight, for example, and that is interesting. A couple of years ago, research I did indicated that between 15% and 20% of fatal road crashes occurred between 6 a.m. and 10 a.m., when people go to work. People may still have alcohol in their systems at that time.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Does Dr. Bedford support early morning breathalyser checks by An Garda Síochána?

Dr. Declan Bedford

I do. That 15% to 20% of fatal crashes in the morning have alcohol involved. I was speaking one day with gardaí at an education meeting and they told me it can be awkward and they do not want to be seen as Big Brother too much. I said that if they set up a check on the road I use in the mornings, the M3 to Dublin, or if they put up a sign indicating a mandatory alcohol breath test stop, there would be drivers counting themselves lucky and saying that if they had been there five minutes afterwards they would have been caught. Even if they did not do a single test and people saw them taking down the sign and started thanking God for it, if they did it a few times, people would get the word out and think they should mind themselves on the night before.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I am conscious that my time is up.

Chairman

If the Senator has some further questions, he may put them.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I could stay for the day but I am cognisant of the time and the fact other members who wish to contribute. The work of the medical bureau on safety is something the committee should engage on more. As a member of the joint policing committee in Cork city, I am conscious that there are discrepancies between urban and rural areas as well. That is mentioned in the annual report and there is reference to analysis of incidents and detection rates. Will Dr. Bedford comment on that? Dublin had 1,799 recorded incidents and we can go down to Deputy Carey's county of Clare, which had 25 specimens received for analysis. I am curious as to how that disparity arises. That is on page 9 of the 2020 annual report. It is a fascinating report, but it is something we should go back to. We have had an appalling start to 2022 in terms of road safety.

Dr. Declan Bedford

I agree with that comment. The differences between counties arise first because of population.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Right.

Dr. Declan Bedford

We have spoken about putting this figures on a per thousand people basis in future reports. We must figure out a way of doing that and taking account of the number of drivers. Many people in Dublin, Cork and bigger cities have public transport.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Yes.

Dr. Declan Bedford

They do not have that facility so much in rural areas. In Dublin if somebody is on a night out, he or she can get the DART, Luas or the bus home, or even walk. If a person is down in the middle of the country, he or she is more tempted to drive and take a chance. Much of this is population-based but even still we see some variation between counties that are roughly the same size. One would expect Leitrim, as the smallest county in the country, to have the smallest number, for example, but it is second to last. That is over one year and we might find the county down around there every year. We have discussed at board level putting these figures at per thousand of population, and that might balance it and give a better reading.

With regard to the Senator's other suggestion, the director and I, along with anybody else from the bureau, would be very happy to come before the committee again.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Deputy O'Rourke referenced earlier the operation of the bureau. Is there anything that we as a committee should be advocating on its behalf in terms of equipment, staffing or its operational matters. It is important. I am genuinely concerned by the increase in fatalities on the road in 2022. I would like to hear Dr. Bedford's views on that matter as well. In the context of the bureau's work, is there anything that we as a committee should be advocating for with the Department and the Road Safety Authority? I will not ask any more questions.

Dr. Declan Bedford

We have a very good working relationship with the Department and it has been very good to us. We are about to increase the number of staff who can analyse data and technical staff.

Chairman

How many will that be?

Dr. Declan Bedford

If we get them all, it could be seven.

Chairman

That would be on top of how many?

Dr. Declan Bedford

We have approximately 40 total staff.

Chairman

That would go to 47.

Dr. Declan Bedford

That is it, approximately.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Is that sufficient?

Dr. Declan Bedford

That would be sufficient at present and for the foreseeable future. It is something on which we must keep our eye all the time. In 1997, when the current director started, we only had 12 staff. The numbers go up as tests become more complicated. Keeping accreditation of everything takes time and people.

Chairman

How have the staffing numbers increased in recent years?

Dr. Declan Bedford

Is the Chairman asking about numbers since 1997?

Chairman

Yes.

Dr. Declan Bedford

They have increased in all areas but mainly it is laboratory staff.

Chairman

What about in Dr. Bedford's time?

Dr. Declan Bedford

In my time the staff numbers might have only increased by one or two. The numbers have not changed significantly.

Chairman

We will probably do a body of work on road safety. The bureau will be very much central to that, so Senator Buttimer's proposal is valid. The report is a wealth of knowledge. When will the bureau have its statistics for 2021?

Dr. Declan Bedford

I will check that with the director.

Chairman

The bureau should be publishing preliminary figures because they need to be in the public domain. I know the witness has said they are no different from 2020. The figures at this stage are more than 12 months old, but statistics should be informing policy and in the public domain. They could be subject to adjustment following the Comptroller and Auditor General compiling the report. It is something we will follow up. It does not make sense that we could be waiting until September before the bureau publishes its data on tests done in 2021. We will follow that up. I assume the figures would be ready relatively soon after the end of the year.

Dr. Declan Bedford

It would be within three or four months. I can bring that back with me.

Chairman

It is something on which we can follow up. I am on the joint policing committee in Limerick city and county, and Chief Superintendent Gerard Roche and his staff come before us. The number of drug-related testing of drivers is increasing relative to tests for alcohol. We are told one in seven roadside drug tests prove positive, whereas one in 30 prove positive in alcohol testing. When gardaí test for drugs, one person in every seven returns as positive but with alcohol it is one person from every 30. Based on the bureau's report, two thirds of everyone tested is under 34. Some 30% of those people are under 24. That is 1,335 individuals. Another 38% are between 25 and 34. Two thirds of all people tested in 2020 were under the age of 34. They were predominantly male. Is that correct? That is 3,000 of 4,489 tests done.

Dr. Bedford might correct me if I am wrong, but detection of cocaine seems to be increasing exponentially relative even to cannabis. The figure for cannabis detection was 1,747 in 2019 and 2,606 in 2020. The figure for cocaine in 2019 was 852. It increased to 1,494 in 2020. The cannabis figure saw a 50% increase and the cocaine figure saw a 75% increase.

There is also the percentage of tests carried out.

In 2019, 36% of the 13,500 tests were alcohol tests and that went up to 43% in 2020. Toxicology tests went up from 24% of tests to 33% and the number of evidential breath tests went down. Are we seeing an epidemic on the roads, given drug testing is now overtaking alcohol testing? Dr. Bedford might also comment on how long drugs stay in the system. If someone takes a drug, be it cocaine or otherwise, they can get up the following morning and not have a hangover or the sickness people get from drinking alcohol.

Dr. Declan Bedford

They might.

Chairman

Are they living in a fool's paradise in that it will be in the system much longer than it would be with alcohol?

Dr. Declan Bedford

Some of them. Cannabis has a slower half-life and it takes longer to get out of the body.

Chairman

How long?

Dr. Declan Bedford

I could not say because it is a scale but it goes on for quite a long time. A person could smoke a joint, or whatever way they take the cannabis, and it would still be positive the next morning. It depends.

Chairman

And cocaine?

Dr. Declan Bedford

Cocaine is faster acting and would be out of the system quicker. The point is the blood tests can tell the metabolites of the cannabis. Some are fast and disappear quickly. It is not just the cannabis but the chemical constituents of it and they tell whether it has been more recent. It is also the case that cannabis has a long-term effect on people. People think it is a harmless drug. It is far from harmless and it has a long-term effect.

Chairman

Why does Dr. Bedford say that?

Dr. Declan Bedford

Because it stays in the body for a long time. People think it is healthy but it does take its toll.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Am I right in saying that when cannabis is in a person’s system, it stuns the brain cells, but if the person stops, it has not killed the brain cells in the way alcohol does, and they will un-stun themselves, for want of a more technical term?

Dr. Declan Bedford

I am not aware of the research that says it has the same long-term effect as alcohol in all the things it causes.

Chairman

I specifically want to talk about drink and drug-driving. With regard to cannabis, cocaine and alcohol, which stays in the system longest? There are a lot of myths out there.

Dr. Declan Bedford

I do not have all of the data for that but I know that a unit of alcohol takes approximately an hour to get out. It is slower if a person has been eating and so on, and it depends on other factors. Cannabis can stay there for several hours. The trouble is when people are smoking, they do not know how much they have taken. If someone takes a pint of Guinness, they have taken two units, so they know that exactly, but when they take a drag of a cigarette or a joint, they do not know what they have taken.

Chairman

And cocaine?

Dr. Declan Bedford

It is the same thing with cocaine. It is a bit faster acting but we do not know what people are taking.

Chairman

Is Dr. Bedford in any way alarmed by the increase in drug-driving testing by the Garda on the roads?

Dr. Declan Bedford

It only came in properly in 2018 and, therefore, it was likely to increase over time when gardaí became comfortable with the test and it became organised. When the test came in originally, it was new and it takes a bit of time to get up to speed. That might explain some of it.

In one sense, there is a reward aspect because, if they are finding people, they will say it is worth doing. They might say there is no point going out tonight because they will not get anybody, but if they go out and set up a roadblock, there is a chance of picking people up. In one sense, that is backward because the idea of the legislation and the road checks is prevention and to stop people in the first place. In Australia, there was a legitimate story of police officers going out to a road checkpoint with a trainee police officer. They were there for a few hours and found nobody. When the trainee police officer said it was a waste of time, the senior police officer said it was not, because people knew they were out there and they were not drink-driving or drug-driving. That is what our legislation is meant to do as well. The roadblocks and the enforcement are highly visible to stop people taking intoxicants, whether it be drugs or alcohol.

To go back to the point, drug taking is becoming more prevalent and the trends in Ireland are increasing. If more people are taking drugs and these people drive cars, more people will be detected. When people hear about detection and the higher rates, it may deter them. People now say they cannot drink and then drive home. They have to get that same attitude in regard to drugs as well. That will be done by increasing the number of checkpoints. Highly visible enforcement is the key.

Chairman

That is the key. In Dr. Bedford's view and given the trends we are seeing for 2020 and 2021, it does not surprise him.

Dr. Declan Bedford

No, it does not. Where the road checks are located and the number of them is a matter for the Garda. We just deal with the samples coming in and we never set targets for them.

Chairman

Evidential breath tests have gone down significantly as a proportion of the overall tests from 40% to 24%, that is, from 5,372 to 3,278 in a year. Why is that?

Dr. Declan Bedford

Where possible, gardaí are being encouraged to take blood tests and the number of blood tests is going up.

Chairman

When the tests come to the bureau, how quickly are they turned around?

Dr. Declan Bedford

I had that figure and wrote it down last night but I forgot to bring it with me. I will get that information for the Chairman. The alcohol tests are quicker. The drug tests take longer and it can take over a month to get drug test results back.

Chairman

Why?

Dr. Declan Bedford

It is more complicated.

Chairman

Is that all done in-house?

Dr. Declan Bedford

It is all done in-house, yes. We do all of our testing in-house now.

Chairman

Does Dr. Bedford believe the bureau has adequate resources?

Dr. Declan Bedford

We struggled for a while and that is why the Department has now agreed to give us an increase in staff, which will make a big difference.

Chairman

While everything is relative, does Dr. Bedford regard alcohol or drugs like cannabis and cocaine as the more dangerous in terms of driving?

Dr. Declan Bedford

More dangerous than what?

Chairman

In terms of the impact it has on the driver themselves and their capacity to drive.

Dr. Declan Bedford

I do not know which is the worst. I am just a believer in the fact that taking anything like that impairs people’s ability to drive safely. Another point is the amount taken makes a big difference. A man who takes a drink and is just over the limit is still at risk but he is not as much at risk as a man who takes twice the limit.

Chairman

I take the point. To go back to Dr. Bedford's thoughts on cannabis, there is a view in many quarters that cannabis has uses for medicinal purposes. Has Dr. Bedford a contrary view on cannabis?

Dr. Declan Bedford

My view is that cannabis is detrimental to health and to driving.

Chairman

Dr. Bedford sees no uses for it?

Dr. Declan Bedford

There are some medical uses for it and they are specifically prescribed. The difficulty is we have seen very few people actually being prescribed cannabis. It is not a huge problem.

Chairman

Explain that.

Dr. Declan Bedford

It is the number of people who are prescribed cannabis.

Chairman

Is that small?

Dr. Declan Bedford

It is tiny.

Chairman

Is Dr. Bedford surprised it is a small number?

Dr. Declan Bedford

No. It is not like people are taking it for very common conditions. It is a very small number of people.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

It is very difficult to get on the medicinal cannabis access programme, MCAP.

Dr. Declan Bedford

It is very few people, so it is not a real factor. People who are stopped while driving on cannabis are not turning up with legitimate prescriptions or anything like that.

Chairman

This is something on which we have to do further work. We will come back to it.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I apologise that I was at another event earlier. I will continue on from the Cathaoirleach’s point. I think none of us is too shocked that there is an increase in the number of people who have drugs in their system when stopped at checkpoints or after accidents on the basis there is a huge increase in the number of people taking drugs. When there is a case of GAA motions going to congress in regard to cocaine use, we are fairly sure it is prevalent throughout the community and beyond that. Like many others, I have dealt with a large number of issues in the recent past, including drug debt, intimidation and all the rest. The money would not be in it unless there were a substantial number of people taking drugs.

Let us deal specifically with these tests. We are all looking forward to the day we will have a citizens' assembly on drug use because we need to look at something novel for how we will deal with the entire issue. At the minute we are incapable of dealing with it from a health or policing point of view and we are not able to stop or stem the supply or demand. That is not to take away from the fact that there has to be huge police action on dangerous criminals; that goes without saying. That is my single transferable speech on drugs and I would like to be able to update it in the near future.

I know people have varying views on cannabis but we have heard that what one gets on the street is a hell of a lot stronger than what people would have gotten ten, 20 or 30 years ago. Has the Medical Bureau of Road Safety noticed this among those who have been tested, following an accident for example? Are they much more high than would have previously been the case? I get that drug testing has only been happening lately. I am asking about the potency of the cannabis.

Dr. Declan Bedford

I cannot answer that. I just do not have the answer.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I am assuming it is a "Yes" because it is the case that-----

Chairman

Is there a higher concentration in the tests?

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Tetrahydrocannabinol, THC, and-----

Dr. Declan Bedford

I just do not know the answer to that.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

The Garda and mental health experts say that we are dealing with stuff that is a hell of a lot more potent and so has a greater level of impact. I am wondering about tests. The Medical Bureau of Road Safety has found that there is a huge issue with benzodiazepines. What is the situation with crack cocaine?

Dr. Declan Bedford

When it comes down to the technicalities of the particular types of drugs I cannot answer. That is why I say the technical side of the house and director of press would be happy to answer those questions.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

More work needs to be done and these are probably unfair questions but Dr. Bedford is not the first person who has been asked unfair questions in a committee.

Dr. Declan Bedford

It is not a problem. The Deputy mentioned the prevalence of cannabis and you can go into a shopping centre or anywhere else these days and you can smell it. We all know it is out there.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

We all know that. I go to residents' committee meetings and people talk about open drug dealing and all of the rest of it. We put pressure on and move it around-----

Chairman

You can openly smell it. It is quite prevalent.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

That is it and it is combined with the open use of cocaine.

Dr. Declan Bedford

It is a difficult problem. I was involved with it in some way before but as I say I retired from work in 2012. It is a difficult problem to solve. There is no country in the world that has cracked it, if members will excuse the pun. It is a difficult societal problem to sort out.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I will give the example of the superintendent in Dundalk arriving at a community meeting we had in Muirhevnamore. He was congratulated on some of the work the Garda had carried out and it was down to the drug squad being put back into action, there not having been one for a couple of years and at that stage there were three or four members. The superintendent said it was great and that hopefully they would get the numbers up to five but that he could do with 50 or 100. He also asked if there was anywhere in the world where this has worked. That is why I am saying we need to have that citizens' assembly on drug use as soon as possible, while also accepting that Ireland is small, whether it is 26 counties or 32 counties. If something novel is to happen it would probably have to happen on a Europe-wide basis. I do not expect Dr. Bedford to give a view on that and I accept that I am on a tangent.

I refer to Dr. Bedford's specific remit and the Chair has asked him about resourcing. Is there a need for updated legislation to deal with the particular circumstances we are in? There is another thing everyone talks about and there are people who are using cocaine at the minute but who are not necessarily getting penalised to the degree that they become pariahs. I am not saying that necessarily works but this has been put to me by people who work in this situation and they say that at the end of the day, people who are heroin addicts end up going around and around with court cases and all the rest of it. We do not have the appropriate addiction services either. An awful lot of people who would see themselves as safe recreational users of cocaine may have good jobs and may otherwise be ticking the correct boxes but some of them can breeze through life and it does not have the same impact.

Dr. Declan Bedford

There are two different scenarios there. There is recreational use and there are the people who are unfortunately poorer and more deprived and they are in a vicious circle of heroin and poverty, which is very difficult. On the questions about resourcing, the Department has been good to us and we have always had a good working relationship with it. On legislation, two areas are mentioned in the road safety strategy which would be worth following up on. One is the use of interlocks for drivers, which I mentioned earlier before the Deputy was here. However, that has to be part of a programme of proper rehabilitation.

Chairman

I ask Dr. Bedford to explain that.

Dr. Declan Bedford

It is a device you put in a car for people who have many drink driving offences and who cannot resist getting into the car. One has to breathe into the car or it will not start.

Chairman

Is that in other countries?

Dr. Declan Bedford

It is.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

It is used by certain bus companies.

Dr. Declan Bedford

That is right.

Chairman

On a slightly unrelated point, did the Medical Bureau of Road Safety detect heroine in any of the blood samples it took in drug drive testing?

Dr. Declan Bedford

They were just tested for opioids.

Chairman

So very few of them tested positive.

Dr. Declan Bedford

I gave the percentage in my opening statement but I am not too sure what proportion was specific to heroine. That is one area of legislation and the other one is with regard to the different penalties and increasing them for somebody found with more than one intoxicant in their blood stream. A person taking cocaine could be in the pub all night having several pints as well and so they are only penalised for having the alcohol or the one drug in their system but some people have combinations of drugs in their systems. That is another area we looked at. It is mentioned in the road safety strategy as an area that has to be looked at with regard to legislation. Those are the two areas we could focus on.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I get that and I think it would relate to a significant section of society, unfortunately. In Ireland we have always had a history of people drinking too much and you now hear that people use cocaine as a means of being able to drink too much and they can still go on a three or four-day bender with it. That can sometimes end in absolute disaster. I used the term "recreational" but there is a significant amount of people who think they will get through this OK and they will find themselves in bad situations when their families end up with a knock on the door from someone looking for a debt to be repaid. It is a complicated issue. I appreciate the information Dr. Bedford has given us and it is something we need to chase up on.

Chairman

I just had a look at one of the statistics in the Medical Bureau of Road Safety annual report for 2020. It states that in 30% of the 4,489 tests it did people had more than one drug in their systems. Some 2,241 tests were positive for one drug but 1,409, over 30%, were positive for two drugs in their systems. I presume that is outside of alcohol.

Dr. Declan Bedford

Yes and that is why the road safety strategy is asking if it is possible to legislate to increase the penalties.

Chairman

Are there any statistics that show where people had both alcohol and drugs in their systems?

Dr. Declan Bedford

I am sure it is there.

Chairman

Did the Medical Bureau of Road Safety recommend to the Department that it should increase the fines where there is more than one drug found in a test, be it a combination of drugs or alcohol? Did it recommend the use of interlocks?

Dr. Declan Bedford

We would work with other stakeholders and the Road Safety Authority is part of that as well.

Chairman

Have they gone into the-----

Dr. Declan Bedford

There is a working party looking at the interlocks and that is headed up by the Department. The Road Safety Authority has been involved in that as well.

Chairman

Does Senator Horkan wish to come in?

Senator Gerry Horkan

I got the opening statement and I thank Dr. Bedford. As I said before, I am not so sure when we have chairs-designate coming back in, having already been the chair, that we need to have the same level of scrutiny as we would for a new person. I thank Dr. Bedford for all his efforts and for the work he has done.

Chairman

Dr. Bedford has been a surprise. I mean that in the nicest possible way and in terms of wealth of information.

Senator Gerry Horkan

I agree.

Chairman

This is something we are going to follow up on. He has been very interactive. As a committee, we have made a general point regarding the role of chairpersons designate. That is a separate issue from our engagement with Dr. Bedford. I have read the annual report and Dr. Bedford is a key cog in the area of road safety so we will be following up with him.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I thank Dr. Bedford very much for being here. I was watching the meeting online from the Seanad.

Chairman

The Senator was double-tasking. That is good to hear.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

The only thing I ever have to say to chair designates who come in here is that I am sorry we have wasted their time by bringing them here. We do not have any yea or nay over the appointment of chairs. This is purely a formality. However, today's engagement with Dr. Bedford has been far wider than just being a formality. I thank him for his engagement and for his willingness to engage with my colleagues on the area of drink and drug driving and the damage this does on the roads. I have been driving for approximately 42 years and the first time I was ever stopped and breathalysed was at 2 a.m. in Sandyford while returning from Northern Ireland. I was quite surprised to be stopped after all those years. Thankfully, I passed the test. I wish we saw a bit more of it, that is to say, more random checks. I appreciate that it is quite hard to have random checks on the motorway network. I would like to see a little bit more sense with regard to speed cameras. It does not make a lot of sense to have a speed camera on the N11 when it is a dead straight and clear road. There is no speed control on many of the country roads we travel. I used to talk about a very elderly relation of mine who used to go to the pub every night and whose car knew its own way home. The speed cameras should be on those roads. I thank the Chair for allowing me in.

Dr. Declan Bedford

Rural roads are very dangerous at times. The Senator said this engagement is a waste of time. From our point of view, it is not because our work is based on the legislation the Members here enact. If trends changed, the people here are those to change things. This meeting gives us a chance to give some feedback so it is not a waste of time.

Chairman

We will probably do some structured follow-up work with the CEO of the Medical Bureau of Road Safety as well. We on the committee are legislators and these matters are being brought up with us on the ground. We are probably all members of joint policing committees. One of the updates we get every month is from the chief superintendent in our area. In my case, in Limerick, I am tracking drug testing. There is a worrying increase in that regard. The staff of the bureau are the experts in the area of blood testing. We will write to its CEO.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

May I ask one question if we have time?

Chairman

The Senator may ask a brief question. We have time.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

In the introduction to Professor Cusack's report of 2020, on page 1, he speaks about the number of preliminary drug testing devices supplied to An Garda Síochána for roadside use having increased as a result of a further 43 devices having been released from Garda stations for roadside use. At the end of 2020, there were 130 devices available for roadside drug testing in comparison with the 75 available at the end of 2019. That is an increase of 61%. Is that figure enough? Should there be more? Should they be available at all checkpoints? What is Dr. Bedford's view on that? Am I reading it wrong?

Dr. Declan Bedford

I presume it comes down to the practicalities. As I mentioned before, highly visible enforcement is the key. We do not get stopped very often on our roads. I first started driving and got my car in 1979, which was an interesting year in the sense that 650 people were killed on the road. That was the environment I was entering. Highly visible enforcement is key. Despite the amount of driving we do, we are very rarely stopped. The more times people are stopped, the safer our roads will become whether they are stopped for speeding, drinking or seat belts. Some 25% of those who die on the roads are not wearing seat belts. That is extraordinary.

Chairman

Could we ask Dr. Bedford to go back to his board to see whether the preliminary results for 2021 could be published now? It would feed into the development of public policy and into how we look at matters as legislators and as a committee.

We wish Dr. Bedford continued success in his role and thank him for his work as a public health specialist over many decades. We will write to the Minister to say that he has come before us.

Dr. Declan Bedford

I will come back to the committee on that question. I am sure the Department will write to the committee on that.

Chairman

I thank Dr. Bedford for assisting the committee today. We will now take a short break before this afternoon's second session, which will be with Mr. Conal Henry, chair designate of Shannon Group.

Sitting suspended at 2.46 p.m. and resumed at 2.52 p.m.