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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Wednesday, 19 Oct 2022

Bus Coach Sector: Discussion

Today's meeting is in two sessions, the first of which is with representatives from the Coach Tourism and Transport Council of Ireland, CTTC, and they are all very welcome. The second session will be with Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII. The purpose of the meeting is to discuss issues affecting the coach industry, including costs, driver shortages and licensing. I am pleased to welcome on behalf of the committee Mr. Brendan Crowley, Wexford Bus; Mr. David Conway, Citylink; and Mr. Brian Lynch, Suirway.

With regard to privilege, witnesses are reminded of the longstanding parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identified person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the longstanding parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. Reluctantly, I will not permit a member to participate if they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via MS Teams to confirm that they are on the grounds of Leinster House campus prior to making a contribution. If attending in the committee room, they are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I invite Mr. Conway to make his opening statement on behalf of CTTC.

Mr. David Conway

On behalf of the members of the CTTC, I thank the Chair and the committee for inviting us to present here today and for providing us with an opportunity to discuss the serious issues affecting commercial bus operators in Ireland today. By way of introduction, I am a member of the executive council of the CTTC and regional manager of Citylink.

I am joined by my CTTC executive council colleague, Mr. Brendan Crowley of Wexford Bus, and Mr. Brian Lynch of Suirway in County Waterford.

The Coach Tourism and Transport Council of Ireland is the country’s largest representative body for commercial bus operators. We are a proactive organisation focused on delivering the most efficient and sustainable transport connectivity in Ireland. As a sector we support more than 11,000 jobs across every constituency and region in Ireland and our activities have sustained businesses that would otherwise have very limited employment opportunities. However, in the face of rising costs owing to inflation, severe driver shortages and persistent issues with licensing and the recruitment of new, younger drivers, our sector is facing a number of unprecedented challenges. Key to rectifying these issues is meaningful engagement between all transport stakeholders. For this reason, we are grateful to the committee for the invitation to appear before it today.

Since March of this year, when inflation began to steadily rise before peaking at 9.1% in July, many transport providers have recorded increases in the cost of fuel, repairs, parts and general maintenance works. An internal industry survey carried out earlier in the year found that nearly two thirds of commercial bus operators had reported increases in fuel costs of more than 50% in the previous months. Fuel is a mission-critical expense for the industry and one for which we cannot seek a reduction in cost without direct intervention or the influence of external market factors. This is particularly pertinent in the case of school transport where service provision must remain consistent even in the face of volatile and unpredictable fuel costs.

Inflationary pressures have not been confined to fuel. Many CTTC members are paying higher insurance premiums while encountering rising costs for vehicle parts and paying increased interest on vehicle loans. While no sector is immune to these challenges, the provision of transport is a low-margin activity at the best of times, so increased operational and fuel costs have been uniquely challenging. Equally, we acknowledge the Government’s decision in budget 2023 to extend the existing excise reductions on petrol and diesel until the end of February and to allocate crucial funding to strategic public transport projects. It is vital, however, should fuel prices remain at their current levels or increase even further owing to inflation, that consideration be given to the need to include fuel variation clauses in all State contracts. This is an issue for which our members have strongly advocated and we are keen to discuss further with committee members.

The current process for the issuing of licences to operate routes is best described as arduous owing to the considerable length of time between submission of the initial application and the eventual granting of the licence by the National Transport Authority, NTA. This is a long drawn-out process that is sometimes initiated at short notice to meet evolving consumer demand. It requires approval to be sought to use bus stops along a route, which may cover a number of local authority areas, meaning that approval must be sought from each. This creates significant additional administrative work for commercial bus operators applying to service these routes. It is with regret that I note that the current process fails to adequately serve the needs of the public. By comparison, the same process in the UK is significantly less cumbersome and leads to enhanced service provision as and when required, often within a very short timeframe.

It is now the case that when minor adjustments are needed to cater for changing customer demand or to ensure efficient delivery of service, the resulting administrative delays in the implementation of such improvements act as an impediment to the modal shift away from private cars. It is our understanding that the NTA has communicated that all services licensed by it must be fully operational by 7 November or risk being cancelled. This requires commercial bus operators to begin the application process again. We firmly believe that the existing process must be urgently reviewed and unnecessary and burdensome bureaucracy removed.

There has been much discussion of the war for talent in recent times. An ongoing skills shortage combined with competition from other transport providers such as the logistics industry has resulted in a crisis in recruitment and retention of drivers, particularly younger drivers. At present, commercial bus operators aim to employ only fully qualified drivers who meet the highest possible standards of competency and have obtained their full public service vehicle driving licence. However, the industry faces considerable barriers to continued growth and sustained service provision in respect of the older age profile of our drivers. This owes more to the excessive costs of licence qualification, which is now in the region of €2,500. This excessive financial burden is regrettably acting as a deterrent to those seeking employment in the commercial bus sector.

CTTC members are determined to safeguard continuity of service in the years ahead, while emphasising the need to ensure that all drivers strictly abide by the training requirements expected of them. In this context, we are keen to work with transport stakeholders to explore the feasibility of introducing an innovative driver training programme in which new recruits could receive fully funded driver training in exchange for completing a set number of years’ service with a commercial bus company. This would allow young drivers to acquire a public service vehicle, PSV, licence while learning from experienced colleagues and without incurring the significant financial cost normally associated with obtaining a licence.

The crisis in driver recruitment poses a threat to the viability of some services. We are keen to mitigate this. Earlier this year, despite the easing of Covid-19 public health restrictions and the resumption of international travel, a number of our members were still faced with the prospect of reducing their services owing to a lack of available drivers. As a sector which facilitates more than 75 million passenger journeys annually, boosting regional economies and providing school transport to students across every constituency in the country, this issue must be addressed as a priority. As an accompaniment to the measure I outlined, the CTTC believes that simplifying and streamlining the process for issuing work permits to non-EU drivers could open a pathway to employment for those who hold a category D equivalent licence, which pertains to heavy goods vehicle, HGV, and bus and coach drivers. While there was considerable support for Government’s decision to allow those holding a Ukrainian driving licence to exchange this for an Irish correspondent earlier this year, this was only the case for category B licenceholders, which covers passenger cars only. The deployment of additional staff to the relevant divisions and the opening of a specific pathway for non-EU drivers who hold category D equivalent licences could prove a useful tool in easing driver shortages, while providing valuable employment opportunities for those who live and are seeking to work in Ireland. Given the strategic service our members provide, it is imperative that there is a loosening of the applicable rules on eligibility in order to plug the acute skills need in our sector so that we can continue, with confidence, to ensure essential connectivity to passengers throughout the country.

I stress that as an industry, we are committed to adopting sustainable practices. CTTC members possess some of the most environmentally compatible fleets currently available on the market. We remain determined to build on this progress. Now is the opportune time for the Government to begin working in a meaningful collaboration with the private bus and coach sector to ensure the target of 50% carbon emission reductions in transport by 2030 is achieved. Commuters will flock to public transport if they feel the passenger experience surpasses that of using a private vehicle. Fair fares act as a huge incentive in this regard. Introducing park-and-ride facilities, enhancing our network of quality bus corridors and improving the overall efficiency of existing vehicles will help to lessen average journey times and ease traffic pressures, while significantly reducing carbon output. A single coach has the potential to take 40 cars off the road and even a 10% reduction in peak car usage would cut urban CO2 emissions by 14,500 tonnes per annum.

As a country, we should be deploying every available incentive and strategy to encourage a modal shift away from private vehicles and towards public transport. The CTTC and our members are determined to play our part in ensuring we have an efficient, fit-for-purpose and affordable public transport system for future generations. We can be relied on as trusted advisers to bring consumer behaviour trends, insights and advice to resolve the biggest challenges confronting the sector.

While our sector faces a number of profound challenges, our utmost priority is to continue working in meaningful collaboration with all areas of the transport sector to work towards our collective ambition of having a reliable, sustainable, well-serviced national transport network.

I thank Mr. Conway. I will now turn to members and Deputy Carey will be first. As this is a shortened session, members have five or six minutes at a maximum.

I welcome our guests and thank them for the presentation. On the licensing of routes, reference was made to the situation in the UK, which has a less cumbersome system. I ask Mr. Conway to give more detail on that system, as compared to the one in place here as operated by the National Transport Authority, NTA?

Mr. David Conway

The process here is that in the first instance, an application needs to be made to the National Transport Authority. It is quite a detailed application, as it should be. However, the timeframes in terms of receiving a decision back from the transport authority can be quite considerable. There is no guarantee of an offer or if an offer is made, it may not necessarily be for what was applied for. As people who are commercial operators and being close to consumer demand, we seek particular insights in terms of travel demand. We seek to serve those needs. In many instances, a grant or an offer may not be received at all. In fact, a rejection is often received. It is on public record that over the years, the transport authority rejects as many applications as it grants.

In the event that an offer is received, from that point onwards, a very cumbersome and bureaucratic administrative process needs to be gone through. As I mentioned in our presentation, bus stop approvals have to be sought and received from all local authority or private landowners the service will be servicing. For example, if it is serving a university, approval must be received from the university but if is passing through the bounds of a number of different local authorities, approval needs to be received from all of these. In addition, there is the requirement to pass on vehicle details, commercial vehicle roadworthiness tests, PSV licences and copies of insurance. These are all matters which are within the public domain through the Road Safety Authority, RSA, in any case. This would appear to be a doubling up.

If the service is actually launched, for various different reasons, be it travel demand or increased traffic congestion, then service times may need to be amended over time in order that a more reliable and consistent service is provided to the customers. A timetable may need to be changed by as little as five minutes to provide a more reliable running time. An example scenario might be a later arrival because of increased congestion entering into an urban area. In this case, the operator is required to go through the whole process again. An application has to be made for an amendment. It has to be decided upon and if it is offered, the operator has to follow through that whole process again. New bus stop approvals have to be sought and up-to-date documents have to be provided again.

In comparison, in the UK if one wishes to run a commercial service, it is a case of registering it with the local authorities. Once registered, there is a timeframe given to provide the service but approval to do so will be received. Then the operator must simply put on the service within that four-week period. If there are to be changes, the operator simply needs to notify the local authority and let the travelling public know within a two-week period in advance of the changes that are being made. All of the other administration is done away with.

It is much more streamlined compared to our own really cumbersome system that Mr. Conway has described. Has this been put to the NTA? Has it been raised previously?

Mr. David Conway

It has become more of an issue more recently. Yes, we have put it to the NTA before, particularly in terms of its guidelines for licensing. We have not been given a definitive timeline as to when a review of the licensing guidelines will be conducted.

Driver shortages are a big issue. Even in Clare, last week a bus route was discontinued abruptly because a driver fell ill. There was no replacement driver available for that Inagh-Kilnamona route back into Ennis. Efforts are under way to try to get another driver. The impact that it is having on the ground is really visible now because of the increased numbers using the school transport scheme. Reference was made to a new idea in relation to training drivers on the job. How long would that take? A barrier in that regard, namely, the €2,500 cost for training was mentioned but how long is the process to train to be a driver of a bus?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Generally, it will take a number of weeks to train somebody to drive a coach because there is more than just driving. It is all about the safety and other elements. The core driving elements can be taught in around 16 to 20 hours. It is really learning the size of the vehicle as opposed to how to drive again, because people already have a driving licence. One of the big problems for us at the moment is the uncertainty around the driver testing and qualification process. For instance, in my own business, we have hired people in recent weeks as trainee drivers. We train them to drive, we apply for driving tests and we have no idea when they will see a driving test. There is no certainty in the system that will say the test will come in three weeks, four weeks or whatever. Even when people complete the driving test, they then have to wait until a licence and driver certificate of professional competence, CPC, card are issued. That could be many weeks more. Many small or medium-sized operators are not in a position to take on a lot of extra staff who will be essentially non-productive for a number of months because the process is not quick enough to manage that.

How long could it take in total?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

It could take several months; three to four months, easily.

Is Garda vetting another issue?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Garda vetting becomes a problem because there are multiple requirements for it. In other words, if one is doing a school bus contract, Garda vetting needs to be done. If one is doing a HSE contract, a separate Garda vetting process is needed. A driver has to be Garda-vetted individually for all the different agencies that he or she may work for. So it can take some time as well.

How many drivers is Mr. Crowley short in his own company at the moment?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

I could take on ten to 15 drivers tomorrow morning and have work for them. What we find in our business, which is no different to those of my colleagues and other businesses we are representing here, is that there are many opportunities. These can be tendered opportunities or new business opportunities or extra demand for the services that are already being provided. Unfortunately, we are not able to meet the customer demand because of that process of bringing drivers into the system. It is a tight labour market. We all understand that but it is important to bring clarity in regard to timelines such as how long it will take to get a test when people do lessons. There is the possibility of opening up to a newer market of drivers. If we cannot process enough drivers in Ireland and the EU, then maybe we need to look at that system of opening up to outside.

As a final question, what are the rates of pay that drivers are offered?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

I can only speak for my own business. We pay well above the average industrial wage. It is a very competitive industry so everybody is paying a damn good salary at this stage.

There are a couple of areas that I want to zone in on. Deputy Carey has already covered the licensing issue. There are good reasons for some aspects of licensing in order that it is not a free for all. That is being reasonably well handled. There are areas, from a rural perspective, where we would like to see a much quicker roll-out of some of the services. I know that when the powers that be look at it, they have to do so in terms of funding as well. Deputy Carey and I have been looking for a town service in Ennis for quite some time. I am sure that the industry would be ready to do it if given the go-ahead and the wherewithal. The biggest concern that I have is the lack of availability of drivers. This is not unique to the bus companies either.

I hear it from haulage companies and the Irish Road Haulage Association. While the witnesses have identified a model which, on the face of it looks like it could work, have they seen it done elsewhere? Do other countries do it? I am always concerned about solutions that involve binding somebody to a company for a period of time. That is hard to enforce and there is little recourse, having trained somebody, if they decide to head off. In terms of the health service, we have often talked about whether nurses and doctors should be required to remain here and I think the general wisdom is that is not entirely the best way to proceed. Has Mr. Crowley seen anything elsewhere?

I am conscious of Skillnet and of some of the apprenticeship organisations that do similar work to this in other sectors. Is there anything that could be done in our institutes of technologies, ITs, which are now becoming technological universities? Could links be created with some of the other bodies to ensure we have a system that would get people trained more quickly? It is not necessarily always young people who become bus drivers. It could be people coming to the end of a career in some other area. They may not be able to do the manual labour they have done previously and therefore move to bus services.

The State acted in the past when there was a shortage of people in the catering sector by establishing CERT, which started to develop skill sets in the hospitality sector. That was really successful. Is there a requirement to do something more? Should the State take on a greater role in providing a training programme for drivers and upskilling or reskilling? There seems to be plenty of availability and while it is a short-term measure to bring South African drivers here or convert the driving licences of Ukrainians, the vast bulk of Ukrainians who are here are women and children. The Ukrainian men who are here either came because of ill health or they got out of the country before the barriers came down. I do not know if that is necessarily the short-term solution either. I am interested to hearing Mr. Crowley's views on having a State-run driver programme. It worked well when there were no private operators. When we had only CIÉ and Bus Éireann there was an apprenticeship programme in place and people worked their way through that. Those companies are obviously not in a position to do that now because they are in a more competitive environment and bid for routes in the same way as the private companies do. I ask Mr. Crowley to flesh that out a little more.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

It would be fair to say that the semi-State companies, Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann or whoever, find themselves in the same position as us. It is a universal problem and they have exactly the same issues as we do. They have their own driver training modules or schools, as we do across the industry. We have engaged with the education and training boards, ETBs. There has always been a programme in place for HGV drivers and bus drivers, although it is not necessarily available all the time. It is a demand-driven programme. These programmes have been largely aimed at people who are unemployed or in long-term unemployment and are set out over 26 weeks. The problem we had with them is that we have to question the shape of any programme that is run for circa 26 weeks and involves only 16 or 17 hours of driving. I am not for one moment saying all of the other stuff is not important. We have managed to reduce that to a ten-day pilot programme for existing employees in the industry with the education and training boards. That is about upskilling people who are already in the organisation. Most bus companies run lean operations so we do not have lots of people in our organisations who need that programme. If the Senator was to ask me-----

I am not in any way against the idea of competition in these services but that is one of the fallouts from having a more competitive environment. The State companies that would ordinarily have had the capacity and funding to do that now have to operate in the lean and commercial environment that Mr. Crowley's company operates in.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

I would argue that they are still doing it. Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann still have their driving schools so nothing has stopped them other than whatever decisions they may have made themselves. There is no competition for the public service obligation element of Bus Éireann so competition does not come into it. They are fully State-funded and everything they do is competition-free, if you like.

To go back to a point I made some time ago, many companies have taken on the responsibility to provide training. The issue, however, is that there is uncertainty about how long somebody will have to wait for a test and, once they take the test, how long will it take before they can work. When we talk about lean, how many companies can afford to have a team of people on their books which they cannot put into service?

I definitely get that. It seems there is a role for the State to have a better training programme, if possible.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

I suspect there is probably a need for better co-ordination with the Road Safety Authority. Mr. Conway mentioned climate action, a modal shift and so on. If the office of the State that is responsible for testing and qualifying drivers is not able to bring certainty and specific timelines, how do people plan to tackle these issues, in particular, such big issues?

Mr. David Conway

If I may, I will speak on some of the other initiatives that could be explored. Senator Dooley specifically asked what other jurisdictions are doing. Generally, we do not tend to benchmark ourselves much against the Continent where people drive on the opposite side of the road and there are various other differences. The UK has always been a natural benchmark. Many years ago, if I wanted to start driving a truck, I could qualify for a HGV licence as soon as I reached my 18th birthday but I could not get a bus or coach licence until I was 21. This means we lose young people with a passion for driving to the haulage industry. They may come back in later years and I will speak separately on that in a moment. The UK had a scheme where younger drivers could qualify for a bus or coach licence at 18 years but the geographical territory they could cover was restricted to 50 miles. The UK is now finding that this restriction is too constrained. Even if we in this jurisdiction were to take that step in the first instance, the UK is already examining it because it is finding it too restrictive.

If we go to the opposite end of the scale, there are many older drivers who are still extremely fit and able and want to drive, work and contribute to society. However, 70 years is the maximum age on school contracts. No one aged a day over 70 can be put on what we describe as a Bus Éireann contract because the company administers the Department of Education's school transport scheme.

Perhaps the committee should look at that issue. I know it is not the long-term solution but it would certainly help address the immediate problem if the age limit of 70 were extended to 72 or 73. It is hard to be prescriptive about age but all it would take is somebody over 70 to have an accident through ill health or whatever and everybody would be up in arms. The committee should certainly pursue that. While it is not the long-term solution, it might help in the short term.

As with any walk of life, we probably have to look at the quality of the job too. For some, it is a part-time role and they are prepared to hop in and hop out of it. However, it also comes down to pay and this is not meant to be in any way negative towards the witnesses who are operating in the market. If the market changed, they would change with it. It is the same with many aspects of life, and Covid-19 has provided an insight into that. When I talk to people who ran or attempted to run restaurants and pubs, they now accept that the model of employment in the hospitality sector just was not suitable. It suited the consumer because people could have a relatively cheap meal, entertainment and hospitality but it hollowed out the industry because it did not build competency and people were not prepared to remain in it long term. A factor of competition is that it can put downward pressure on wages and also put pressure on individuals. Ultimately, one will hit a stumbling block where an industry is no longer attractive due to the changing circumstances in the economy.

In the construction sector there are sectoral agreements across certain disciplines under which workers have to reach a certain pay grade. Has that issue been discussed? Do the witnesses have a view on it?

Has Mr. Conway seen anything about those sectoral agreements? Is it being talked about? Does he have a view on it?

Mr. David Conway

It is not something that has come up. Nobody would fall out over it because it is essentially a competitive environment-----

It sets the floor for everyone, but it also sets a career path for people who want to raise a family and pay their bills-----

Mr. David Conway

Absolutely.

-----rather than people who are at the end of their career and have a pension or some other access to funds and can do it as a means of earning a little additional revenue. It is frankly the same situation as the taxi service. We have discussed that in this committee. We need to look at professionalisation and recognising a career path for drivers and that has to include the wage structure.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

I accept what the Senator said. The public and commercial transport sectors, especially the commercial sector, are much more sophisticated than they were for many years. There are many good employers who follow all the best HR practices. Nobody would have a problem if sectoral agreement affected everyone so they do not distort competition or anything like that. However, certainty is needed around all the other elements. If employers are going to invest in people, they need to be able to tell people how long it will take for the career path to progress. They need to be able to say to people that if they come to work for them, they will be a trainee for X amount of time, they will get their test in X number of weeks, then will be able to drive in X number of weeks and then worry about further progression after that.

I thank Mr. Crowley for his engagement and take his point.

I thank the CTTC for coming before the committee. We are all aware of the issues facing coach operators in Ireland and my constituency of Cork East is no different from that of Senator Dooley. It is a major concern that we do not have enough bus drivers. At a practical level, schools are telling me they cannot find bus drivers or private bus operators to do runs for matches during the day because many are caught up in obligations to school transport and such. The practical impact this is having on people's lives is taking hold in Cork, which is interesting.

With regard to the of training bus drivers and the licensing process, I would like to tease out some references the CTTC made in its opening statement about the considerable time between the initial application being submitted and the eventual granting of the licence by the NTA. Will the witnesses give a little more insight into how long that process generally takes?

Mr. David Conway

The guidelines issued by the NTA state eight weeks but in reality it can be eight months.

It should take eight weeks according to the guidelines. Are those guidelines from-----

Mr. David Conway

That is the guideline from the NTA.

That is interesting.

The CTTC has a golden opportunity today to tell the committee that has oversight of the NTA a little about its dealings with the authority. I find it next to impossible to deal with the NTA. Every time it has come before the committee it has been disappointing in my experience. What is it like for the witnesses?

Mr. David Conway

As a transport authority, its remit is quite wide and as a representative body and as individual businesses, our dealings with the NTA are without a doubt extremely professional. We cannot fault the staff for that.

Throughout the Covid-19 pandemic the NTA was extremely engaging and assisted all operators, including State operators, to maintain a basic level of service provision, especially for essential workers. The problem only relates to some of the processes. Perhaps it is a case of how they have developed over the years, but it is time to re-examine those and to streamline them. That is the main point we are making. An opportunity is available to streamline the administrative burden being placed on operators. A result of that would be to speed up the process.

It is interesting that Mr. Conway has referred to the professional engagement. We have all had individual and group engagement with the NTA and despite best efforts it can be challenging in my experience to get answers from it. Does Mr. Conway feel the NTA has a lot of work to do to improve the situation for CTTC operators? Does the CTTC feel let down in respect of what happened with the private operators who had contracts with NTA controlled services? We heard an excellent presentation from J.J. Kavanagh & Sons, which was before the committee, as Mr. Conway will be aware, about the issues facing private bus operators who are delivering contracts for Bus Eireann that are under the control of the NTA and are not getting the same level of fair subsidy that was being given elsewhere.

Mr. David Conway

I will refer to Mr. Lynch in a moment specifically about services that have to be withdrawn. He can speak about that from personal experience.

There are many different facets to this, but as regards fares, two Government schemes were launched earlier this year by the Department of Transport and the NTA became the administrator of the schemes. Perhaps not all of the blame lies with the NTA, but I cannot say for sure. One of those schemes is a 20% cost-of-living measure that was introduced back in April when 20% was taken off the price of public transport. That immediately applied to all State operators but commercial operators have been excluded from that scheme to date. As a result, in more rural areas where a commercial operator is probably the only provider of a bus service in that area, the customers of that service are not benefiting from a cost-of-living measure because they are not getting the 20% fare reduction. However, people who live in Dublin benefit from that 20% reduction because it is available on State services, such as Dublin Bus, Luas, DART and Irish Rail.

Is there also an issue with undercutting of routes provided on contracts by private bus operators where Bus Eireann was operating services on similar routes and there was an undercut in prices?

Mr. David Conway

I will defer to Messrs. Lynch and Conway who have more direct experience.

My time is limited and, therefore, in conclusion, it is exceptionally important that organisations such as the CTTC in arenas such as this committee provide the information we need to tackle this with the NTA and it should not hold back in any way. I have found the authority quite frustrating to deal with as an organisation. I will hand over to Mr. Lynch.

Mr. Brian Lynch

The Deputy has asked a couple of questions, one of which I will divert back to Mr. Crowley. It is about pricing between Bus Éireann and private operators on shared routes.

We did not compete with Bus Éireann on routes in County Waterford. We have an established network of town services that run from Waterford to villages such as Dunmore East and Portlaw. Trading has been extremely difficult. We are about to shut our company. We will withdraw services from the end of October 2022. It was necessary for various reasons, including that we essentially did not recover from the Covid-19 pandemic. Rural operators have had a different experience as regards passenger footfall. We are roughly at 50% of where we were in 2019. I am aware that in Dublin and on Expressway routes footfall has come back up. We were glad to get the commercial bus operator, CBO, scheme that assisted us to keep going up to the end of June, but we realised when that ended our business was in real trouble. That has been coupled with increased fuel costs, as is common knowledge. The Deputy is asking about the NTA. I agree that we have always had a professional relationship with it. We are a third generation family company started in 1899 by my great-uncle. We know the business. We have always been a good employer. We have been professional and over many years we have had ups and downs with the NTA.

We have always tried to maintain a fully professional relationship with the authority. It has not been easy at times. Part of our conversation coming to the end of June was that we knew we were in real trouble and were not going to be able to continue our services, which caused me a lot of concern because we are tight in our local community. We are a small company with ten buses and 15 employees. We know all of our customers. I was concerned that we were going to be in a situation where we were not going to be able to continue our services. I found it hard to get that across the line and get that communication to come back. At the moment we have just about got to a position where the NTA are stepping in to provide bus services from 1 November.

By way of conclusion, while the guideline is eight weeks, will Mr. Lynch tell us how many months it is taking?

Mr. Brian Lynch

In practical terms, it can take up to eight months.

Chairperson, if any fact has come away from today's discussions so far, that one particularly is hugely concerning. We need to work on that.

I thank the witnesses. We examined this previously. To extend the 20% fare reduction to the CBO sector would cost in the region of €24 million over a 12-month period. Is it safe to say that it would be an ask today for that 20% fare reduction to be extended to the commercial bus operator sector?

Mr. David Conway

Yes, it would be.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

The important thing is the 20% reduction and how it affects businesses. Deputy O'Connor was probably in that space as well. In the north east for instance, there is a well-known bus company that operates from Deputy Ó Murchú's constituency. Ultimately, they carried thousands of passengers per day in and out of Dublin. With that 20% reduction only going to PSO services, customers of that company who wanted to continue using the same service they had been using for years could not avail of that reduction. The only way they can avail of that 20% cost-of-living measure is to leave that operator and switch to a PSO operator. The PSO service may grow as demand grows, but the commercial bus operator will start to disappear. Effectively, the 20% is distorting the market severely. The other side of it is-----

We do not have to go outside my constituency as we have Ashbourne Connect in our area, which is reducing services.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

It is the same scenario. What is lost much of the time is that commercial bus operators are not asking for money for commercial bus operators because it is the end user who gains. It is the customer who gains. The coach operator will get paid regardless of who is paying for it. Right now, the technology introduced for the young adult card is working well. That was handled well by the NTA and launched in a short space of time, with co-operation from us on a working group. It is there and it is up and running. That technology could be used tomorrow morning to extend the 20% reduction. It is an electronic verifiable process that none of us would have any input into other than the IT equipment, which is the NTA's own system. It is possible.

That is something the committee should pick up on because it is making a difference in those services, as we can see.

Mr. Crowley raised fuel variation clauses the last time he was before the committee. Has there been any progress on that? Has the situation improved or deteriorated?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

No. We did have discussion with the NTA but there has been no progress. We did get a favourable conversation. The NTA realises that it is a problem. For the benefit of those who are not familiar with what the Deputy is asking about, essentially, it is when somebody signs up to a contract or is tendering for something for a period of years. They are applying for something and they have no idea what their fuel costs are going to be. Many operators were severely stung in recent months in situations where they signed up for contracts with no fuel variation clauses. It creates huge uncertainty. People do not know whether they should be in-----

The committee has had hearings previously relating to other sectors and we have seen progress from Government. It is something we should continue to pursue.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

In fairness, in some of the NTA contracts, operators have received compensation and in the school contracts also, but it is uncertain. They do not know if it is going to be there or if it is a one-off payment or if they are going to get it again.

On what date did the new operational system come into place for young adults?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

It has been in operation for six or seven weeks - early September. It is working very well.

Mr. Conway raised the issue in his opening statement about the challenges in delivering on licences and dealing with local authorities. He specifically mentioned that there is a demand from the NTA that services be fully operational by 7 November. Will he provide some information on the common-sense flexibility the commercial coach industry is asking for? What is it asking for specifically?

Mr. David Conway

That is it exactly. We are asking for some flexibility. As an industry, when-----

What services does this relate to?

Mr. David Conway

This relates to licensed commercial services, specifically scheduled services on routes that could be commuter routes, which would be stage carriage, or an intercity route, for example.

Are they new or existing routes or-----

Mr. David Conway

It is mixture of both. Some people received offers or grants of licences even during Covid-19 or just prior and are only now in a position to start mobilising those services. It is a case of use it or lose it. The warning time given is quite short. On existing licences, many services were scaled back for various reasons, one of which was Covid-19 in particular. Now, as operators seek to put those services back in, there are challenges. Demand may not have fully recovered and we are in what we would term our "off-season", whereas the summer is always a busier time. It would be more appropriate that those services be mobilised next year, as opposed to having to mobilise them now coming into the winter. Coupled with driver shortages, it has not always been possible to put particular departure times or journeys back in on licences. We are asking for an extension and for flexibility so that it is there for a longer period.

That is something we should support as a committee.

On school transport, no one will be more familiar than the witnesses with the challenges that arose out of the increased demand. There was a commitment in the budget that extra funding would be provided for people who had previously been accommodated on the school transport scheme on a concessionary basis. We have been told by Bus Éireann regional officers that the real constraint is around mainly bus drivers but also buses. There was a hope that when the coach tourism season quietened down there might be an opportunity there. Have the witnesses or their representative groups been contacted about that? Is there any scope or movement in that regard?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

In fairness, Bus Éireann continues to contact operators and has openly said to them that it is more than happy to talk as drivers and vehicles become available. The company has been working hard at trying to alleviate the problem but some of the other issues we have spoken about are feeding into that problem. As Senator Dooley said, the possibility of even temporarily raising the retirement age to 71 or 72 would allow many drivers back into the system. Drivers do not have to retire from commercial businesses at that age as long as they go for annual medicals and doctors are happy that they are more than fit to do the job. That might be an opportunity to overcome a difficult problem.

That might be an opportunity to unlock some capacity.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Absolutely.

I call Deputy Cathal Crowe.

I have been following some of the debate from my office. The witnesses were a bit kind and generous to the NTA because if I were on their side of the room, I would probably be hitting my head against the wall at times having to deal with its staff.

On the licensing issue, there is guidance of eight weeks. It should take eight weeks for a licence to be turned around. Mr. Lynch said in his opening statement that it is now taking eight months. Has there been an explanation at any point given as to why there is such a huge delay? Have any remedies as to how it can be fast-tracked been provided?

Mr. David Conway

The short answer is "No". We have requested that the guidelines be reviewed. The eight weeks is a guideline for the time in which to make a decision. As I say, in reality it can be up to eight months but the specific details on that is a question for the transport authority. We are suggesting that various aspects of that licensing process could be streamlined and there is no reason why they cannot be. Bus stop approvals are one such example, as is the requirement to provide high levels of documentation, which are all available and already there in the public domain. This seems like an unnecessary doubling up for the sake of bureaucracy.

What would Mr. Conway say about getting more drivers who are over the age of 70 and who have health, competency, skills and experience behind the wheel of buses? On the medical requirements, is there anything he would like to see changed or streamlined to make more of these drivers available and to get them working?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

As it stands, it is only for school contracts that people cannot drive when they are over 70. There is nothing to stop anybody driving with any other company. Generally it is just an insurance requirement that the driver goes for an annual medical test. It is obviously a serious thing to make sure somebody is fully fit but I do not think we would have any problem with that. If it freed up drivers by-----

Does it take time? Is it slow?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

It is not particularly slow. The issue at the moment is the unwillingness to move on that age limit of 70. It appears to be part of the school transport system within Bus Éireann itself. Many of the drivers have already gone through medical tests because they may still be working with companies but just cannot be deployed on school transport.

Mr. David Conway

The age limit of 70 is an issue specific to school transport.

Mr. Brian Lynch

On that point, as individual operators are very risk-averse, they know within their own staffing who is a good driver. It is simple as that. If a company has a good driver and he is healthy and does an annual medical when he is over 70 years of age, there really is not an issue. We have had several such drivers. What happens for commercial bus operators in the school transport system is that it is constrained by its own system.

I thank the witnesses for their insights.

Over the past two months or so, each member of the committee has been inundated with calls and emails from constituents about the current school bus fiasco. Though they have been very good and have tried everything to try to accommodate people, what we hear repeatedly from Bus Éireann management is that there are no drivers available. There might be a vehicle available and Bus Éireann may be committed to the route but there is no driver available. A huge number of people in the private sector are contracted in to fulfil this requirement. I have explained very simplistically what hundreds of issues boil down to. Can the council's representatives think of a way we could unlock more driver availability beyond what they have already stated in their opening statements?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

On school transport, we have spoken about a very obvious one. My colleague, Mr. Conway, has also just mentioned a system that works in the UK where a heavy goods vehicle, HGV, can be driven at 21 years old. A bus can also be driven by a 21-year-old in the UK, albeit with limitations or restrictions, whereas in Ireland, you have to be 21 years old before you can get your provisional licence so essentially, you will be 22 years old or older before you are ever able to work a day behind the wheel of a bus or a coach. There is certainly scope to look at that and to widen the band on both ends of the age profile.

I have one final question. The UK Nationality and Borders Act came in some months ago and it was all about limiting how people could come in at Dover. The then-Prime Minister Boris Johnson was at the time trying to put a block on illegal immigration into the UK. One of the upshots of that was a proposal that there would be form-filling and fee-paying to get over the Border to Northern Ireland, if you were not an Irish or British citizen. I think this would be quite unworkable. Up to 1998, very few people crossed over the Border on coach tours but since the Good Friday Agreement, they do. Many people take off from the west of Ireland, come up to Dublin and on into Northern Ireland. If you are carrying American passengers and if your driver is a Polish national, it will be very tricky. Each one of them has to get off the bus, fill out cumbersome forms, and pay a fee to get over the Border. Tourism Ireland, which is an all-Ireland body, says this is absolutely unworkable. Will the witnesses speak to that issue here? Can they comment on concerns about instances where there would be a coach going from counties in the Republic and crossing over the Border, and the difficulties this would mean for drivers and tourists?

Mr. Brian Lynch

Insofar as it goes, it is absolutely unworkable and frankly, a form of a madness from our perspective. Fáilte Ireland and Tourism Ireland are absolutely correct in their representations in that regard. It would cause an unmitigated mess and there is no other way to put it. It would be horrendous. I am old enough to remember the old days up North when it was not that pleasant to cross the Border and here we are heading back to that again. It is unthinkable to be honest and I do not know what the solutions are. If we can, we should try not to allow that to happen.

As representatives of the sector that will drive people to the Border, and hopefully over the Border, which we all want to happen, have the witnesses made that position by writing to the Government or indeed to the Government of the United Kingdom?

Mr. Brian Lynch

I do not believe we have at this stage. Would I be right?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

I cannot answer that because I am not involved in that sector. I can certainly check it out and come back to the Deputy on it.

It would be good to join in on the debate. I know the witnesses have very good views on it but their perspective would be valued.

I now go to Senator Horkan, who has five minutes. We can stretch it to six minutes.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I attended from my office and read their statements last night. I want to clarify one thing. Does the CTTC encompass all companies other than, for example, Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann. Is that fair to say? Are Aircoach and Go-Ahead included or are they part of the council?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

It is up to individual companies as to whether they want to join the organisation but we obviously work together on many areas.

Are either Go-Ahead or Aircoach, for example, part of it?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

No, they are not part of the CTTC but we work together on-----

What percentage of the coaches most of us see on the roads of Ireland do the CTTC represent?

Mr. David Conway

Approximately 80%.

I am just trying to get a handle on what is and what is not in. We have had many issues with Go-Ahead in terms of driver shortages, services not appearing and so on. I will address those issues to representatives of Go-Ahead on a different day as I do not want to be giving the CTTC the flak for an organisation it does not represent. There were four main points in the presentation and I was listening to the responses on the various items raised. As somebody based and living in Dublin, I do not get the same level of queries about school transport because those who use it are either on Dublin Bus or Go-Ahead services, or are in schools which contract the CTTC members to provide solely private services. I was hoping to flush out one point. How much of the business of the sector and the members represented by the CTTC is what we might call the licensed routes in various places, versus organisations being contracted by schools to bring people on school tours, to swimming lessons, rugby, soccer and Gaelic football matches? What percentage of the CTTC business involves fares being taken by the driver or through tapping or whatever, and what percentage is private services for all kinds of events?

Mr. David Conway

When the industry is taken as a whole, the licensed sector is approximately one third.

One third. Much of what we have discussed today has been about the licensing problem and it is just that. It is something we can take on and deliver the message to the NTA, whose representatives are regularly before this committee. A big chunk of the CTTC business involves driving tourists around the west of Ireland, the Ring of Kerry and all the other things such as school tours, summer camps. I presume the issues there are mainly that companies are locked into arrangements in which, while the fuel costs have gone up massively, margins are tight and they are now delivering services that are at break-even point or even less. Equally, the council's members face huge challenges with driver retention and recruitment. I noticed reference was made to work permits more than to driving licences. Are organisations also having an issue with driving licences? The Road Safety Authority was before the committee last week and I had been asked, on behalf of the Moldovan ambassador, to make the point that there are people who want to be able to drive but who cannot get their driving licence exchanged in an efficient manner. Are there challenges with driving licences as much as with work permits or are they both presenting problems, or one more so than the other?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Yes, the driving licence system is problematic. As I outlined earlier, when somebody applies for a test, you do not know how long it will be before they get an appointment, so you are waiting as long as it takes.

Even when someone gets a test and completes it, he or she still cannot drive a bus or coach. That individual must wait until the licence, CPC card and tachograph card are issued, which can take many weeks. It is about speeding up the whole process.

Is that a combination of the RSA, the NTA, the National Driver Licence Service, NDLS-----

Mr. Brendan Crowley

The NTA has no input. It is really down to the NDLS and the RSA.

Has the CTTC had discussions with them about this process?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Yes. Funnily enough, I believe that the NTA has also done that in respect of the likes of Go-Ahead and Dublin Bus, but-----

What are they saying?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

It is down to staff limitations. In addition, the system has not been modernised in many years. I am from County Wexford in the south east, which is probably home to the largest fleet of HGVs. Some of the largest companies in the country are based in County Wexford. Despite that, someone cannot do a driver test for a HGV or coach in Wexford. A person must go to Waterford, which is the nearest place where a test can be done. When someone applies for a test, he or she gets no indicative date as to when it will take place. Sometimes, people can get lucky because there is a cancellation or whatever. Employers taking people on with such uncertainty means that they cannot plan a business. My business has been fortunate enough to win tenders, but we are finding it difficult to fulfil them because we do not know when we will be able to get drivers through the system. There are a couple of issues.

Having listened to the opening statement and the witnesses' interactions with other members, it is clear that the whole system is out of date and creaking and that technology and online systems could, as they did with motor tax approximately 20 years ago when we were all queuing up in social welfare offices or tax offices for hours to get bits of papers stamped and processed, allow people to go online and get something the following day or two days later. It is the same with the online passport system. Am I right in saying that there has been no effort to modernise or increase the level of engagement technologically?

If I am from eastern Europe - there is probably a difference in the process depending on whether my country is in the EU or not - issues arise in terms of the recognition of my licence, the ability to apply for a work permit and the ability to exchange my licence. Am I right in saying that citizens of EU member states do not need to exchange their licences?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

That is debatable. Someone is supposed to hold a licence from the country in which he or she is residing, although his or her licence may transfer.

The recognition may be easier but someone is still supposed to do it.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Yes. Someone is supposed to change his or her licence to one from the country in which he or she resides.

A coach operator is required to ensure that every one of its drivers has an Irish-issued licence and is not supposed - I presume they do not - to employ people who do not have the required-----

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Absolutely not.

Even just exchanging a licence causes a delay. People from those countries whose licences we do not recognise need to apply for a test and do the test. Is it only then that they can apply for their work permits or can that be done in tandem? I am trying to flesh out all of the-----

Mr. Brendan Crowley

I am not sure. I would be a liar if I said otherwise.

Is it correct to say that non-EU drivers need work permits?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Yes. Some licences can be converted while others are not recognised, for example, Brazilian licences. Recently, there was an issue at Dublin Airport because a licence did not match exactly the size-----

They have to apply-----

Mr. Brendan Crowley

It depends on the country.

-----for tests and start from scratch, albeit they may pass their tests on the first attempt. The testing times in respect of coach licences are long.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Half the amount of mandatory lessons are required for some licences, in particular car licences, versus someone who has never held a licence previously.

We could have coach drivers coming to Ireland from non-EU European countries who have been driving buses in their respective countries for years but who have to start here as if they had never been on a motorbike or tractor before.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

That is possible. I think-----

Is it possible or highly likely?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

It depends on the country from which they come.

The non-exchange ones.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Some licences are recognised, some are not.

Not many of us have touched on the issue of sustainability so far. What is the general age and size of the fleet? Is it moving towards hydrogen or electrical power? Are there Government supports for that or is there any movement in that direction? We have Zero Emission Vehicles Ireland, ZEVI, and there is a great deal of discussion about taxis, but where are we in decarbonising the fleet that the CTTC's members operate? Are we anywhere?

Mr. David Conway

The fleet is large and varied. Due to the way in which most of our members work, the fleet is cascaded. Many vehicles come in as front-line vehicles on scheduled or tour services. As their age profile increases, they are moved down along services until they eventually do school transport. That said, there is an age limit on school transport. I do not only mean in respect of the driver, which is 70 years, but in respect of the vehicle, where the limit is 20 years. If a bus is a day over 20 years of age, it cannot be used on school transport contracts.

By and large, the fleet is Euro 6, which is the most environmentally friendly set of limits at the moment. For coaches, electrification poses particular challenges around the usage of the vehicle, the distances they are required to cover and the weight of the luggage and passengers they must carry. Currently, the longer term solution appears to be hydrogen.

There are very few specific supports. A €5 million scheme was made available last year for more environmentally friendly fleets across the haulage and passenger transport markets. The scheme was capped at €500,000 for an individual applicant. It was to make up 50% of the difference between a conventional diesel vehicle and the alternative fuel vehicle.

How many coaches would that €5 million cover? Is it ten? Is it 20?

Mr. David Conway

It would be €450,000 to €500,000 for an electric vehicle, so approximately ten.

There is a great deal of work to be done, not just by operators, but by the Government if it wants operators to become sustainable.

Mr. David Conway

We believe so.

We will engage.

We will be undertaking a module, probably after Christmas, on the issue of emissions in transport. Something like-----

That is why I want to touch on this matter. It has not really been touched on.

The Senator has touched on something there.

I thank the witnesses for their efforts on behalf of their members. I assure them that most, if not all, members of the committee, including myself, will be happy to engage with them further. Coach operators are the backbone of many parts of Irish society, for example, summer camps, schools that are travelling to matches, people going on tours, residents' groups, etc. All kinds of people use them. Coach operators are the go-to people for many services. They are valued, although I am sure there are times when they do not feel appreciated. Without them, we would be stuck as a nation. It is important that we acknowledge the contribution that they make to society. The witnesses should please revert to us with issues, particularly in their engagement with the State sector. We can highlight those issues further.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their interesting testimony. I will ask an overarching question. I am near the end of the list of speakers, so everything that I wanted to ask has already been asked, but what three points regarding school transport should we as a committee take away from today and bring to the Department of Transport or the Department of Education?

Or the RSA or the NTA.

What are the priority issues for the CTTC?

What three requests would the witnesses make of us? Everything I wanted to ask has been asked, but I wanted-----

That is a perfect question. I was going to ask it. I am impressed.

We are all on the same side in here. There is none of this Opposition stuff at all.

Mr. David Conway

The issue of funding is number one.

Will Mr. Conway elaborate on that point?

Mr. David Conway

I will. There are two strands to it. The first is the need to ensure that all of the travelling public throughout all of the State can benefit from the cost-of-living measures.

The 20% reduction.

Mr. David Conway

Senator Buttimer mentioned school transport. Fuel variation clauses, and whatever other schemes are necessary, should be provided to the operators of those services so as to ensure their continued viability. The funding issue is number one.

Second is the skills shortage. There are many actions that can be taken. We have discussed drivers specifically at this meeting. There are many areas that can be explored, streamlined and improved upon in terms of drivers, for example, non-EU nationals, training, licensing, and younger and older age limits.

Mr. Feargal Barton, one of the Coach Tourism and Transport Council's representatives, was recently quoted as saying that the issue of insurance for young drivers was a particular barrier. Mr. Conway has just mentioned the issue about needing to be 21 years of age. Would he include that as part of the suite of requests?

Mr. David Conway

Yes, because some, but not all, insurance policies stipulate that 25 is the minimum age of driving. I faced this challenge when I hit my 21st birthday. I managed to overcome it but that was a long time ago. We have spoken specifically about drivers. There are challenges across all of the support functions. We maintain and operate an excellent fleet to the highest of standards. For that to be maintained, we need more engineers in the country to work on those vehicles and training schemes need to be there for them-----

The council's representatives have spoken about an issue with regard to training drivers and young people. Is the cost of obtaining a licence prohibitive? Has the council spoken to the Minister, Deputy Harris, or the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, who are in charge of the Department responsible for higher education and apprenticeships?

Mr. David Conway

Both the cost and timeline serve as barriers. It depends on the route somebody takes to become a professional bus driver. If the person does it themselves, while it may only take 16 to 20 hours of training, booking time with a private school of motoring will take quite a bit of time. When the person has done the training and applies for his or her test, there is another lag and then there are the other aspects such as CPCs, tachograph cards and so forth. That is one route. It is not as easy as saying that it will only take 16 to 20 hours because it will end up being over a much longer time.

One of our organisations, because of our make-up, could conduct those 16 to 20 hours and many others around the safety aspects, the customer service and so on. We can do that in a shortened timeframe because we have more resources available and are able to use vehicles when they are not out in schools. There is a practical aspect to it. However, when that is done there is the follow-on time lag from when the application is made to sit a driving test and, as Mr. Crowley has mentioned, it cannot even be done in the local area.

In respect of the funding piece, what would the cost to the State be? I apologise because I know Mr. Conway may have mentioned it already. How serious is the issue of pay and conditions with regard to retention and recruitment of drivers?

Mr. David Conway

With regard to the funding, is the Senator speaking about the cost-of-living measures and so forth?

Yes. If the council's wish list were enacted by the Government, what would the import of that cost be to the State?

Mr. David Conway

The extension of the 20% fare reduction to commercial operators is estimated at €24 million on an annual basis. I believe €180 million has been made available to public service obligation, PSO, services for that.

Yes. I again apologise, because I had another meeting in parallel with this, but the issue of the excise reduction on petrol and diesel was referred to on page 2 of the council's presentation. Will Mr. Conway elaborate on that? Other members may have asked him because he said he was keen to discuss it further with them. I am not sure whether he did so but, if he did not I ask that he speaks on it.

Mr. David Conway

Fuel is a huge component of our cost base at present and one that is currently unavoidable. We do not really have another alternative but to use diesel in our vehicles. We adopt the best-in-class in service delivery and green driving to minimise that use. Many features are now fitted in many of our vehicles to reduce idling time and stop-start, similar to what is available in many cars at present. However, fuel makes up approximately 30% of the costs we incur. Where 12 or 14 months ago the cost of fuel was €1.20 per litre, it is more than €2 per litre now. We do not have the option to claim back VAT on our import costs, whereas many other industries can claim at least that portion of their fuel cost back.

I have a ridiculously stupid question. Are we light years away from operation of electric buses or a sustainable model in Mr. Conway's industry? I ask out of curiosity.

Mr. David Conway

There are no stupid questions. Some of the solutions that come from them may be less desirable than others. Electric buses are a good solution that is being deployed in many cities including Dublin and Athlone.

I know Dublin Bus has it but I am talking about the coach-hire industry.

Mr. David Conway

Electric is many years away in the coach industry. At present, it appears that hydrogen will be a more viable solution.

I thank Mr. David O'Brien of Cork Coach Hire who has been in constant contact with me for his advocacy on behalf of the industry. I also thank the representatives for being here today and for what they are doing. I apologise for being in and out. The evidence we have had today is important and the representatives provide a considerable service both to the State and many sporting and voluntary organisations. Coaches a very important part of the transport industry. I hope that we can support several of their requests at our private meeting.

I acknowledge the presence in the Public Gallery of two good friends of mine, Mr. Peter Doyle and Mr. Tony White, both esteemed former past pupils of Crescent College and Crescent College Comprehensive, respectively. It is great to have them here today. I hope they are enjoying the proceedings.

The Chair cannot even say St. Munchin's College.

That is for myself.

(Interruptions).

I can see the Jesuit education coming out in Mr. Conway today.

Mr. David Conway

I will take it as a compliment.

That is a very good point.

Mr. David Conway

I took it as it was intended and I thank the Chair.

I thank the Chair for allowing me to come in to facilitate what will be a magnificent speech of one minute and 45 seconds in pre-EU Council statements.

We would not want to deprive-----

-----the Dáil Chamber of his esteemed wisdom.

That is most definitely it. I missed something Mr. Conway said after Senator Buttimer spoke about electric vehicles and how they are a faraway solution at present. What did Mr. Conway say was the more possible solution?

Mr. David Conway

Hydrogen.

My first question was to be about hydrogen. If we can get our act together on wind power, we are looking at green hydrogen as a means of storage and all of those other facilities. We have seen that there have been moves with regard to hydrogen bus fleets. What is the set-up? How much will it cost? What is the roadmap needed - no pun intended?

Mr. David Conway

It is still very much in development. It is being explored more so in bus fleets than in coach fleets at present. However, the key things it speaks to and why it appears that hydrogen will be a viable solution for the coach fleet concern the filling time and the range. Those are the two key things about electric power that make it not as suitable for coaches.

We will be able to swap one fuel system in and out

Mr. David Conway

We are not.

I mean in the sense of as opposed to what is needed for electric vehicles.

We all know of the difficulty with cars and I can only imagine what would be needed to feed a coach.

The council's big asks are funding, streamlining and anything that can be done to facilitate those who are willing to work in the industry. I forget the particular phrase used.

Mr. David Conway

The war for talent.

That is it. That is the business end of this. I will go through a couple of things. We all accept the 20% fare reduction is vital, or not having it can have a major impact. Mr. Crowley spoke about Matthews Coaches, etc. The 50% has been introduced. Will the council representatives go through how that works for coach operators because I am not sure? People probably have a notion of it that is slightly different from what it is.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

How it works at the moment is a customer who wishes to avail of the young adult card can either book online with operators or they can register for a young adult card, which is a Leap card. When they register for the card the evidence is there to prove they are entitled to hold the card. If they book online with an operator they must have that young adult card with them as evidence they are entitled to that fare. What happens in each case is the operator charges that person 50% of the adult fare.

What does the operator get?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

The operator gets 70% of the fare forgone. In other words, there is a haircut of 30% on the NTA payment - the compensation for the fare forgone.

How does that work for operators? We are talking about sustainability. It was sold with the general sense that because an operator can offer the 50% it should be able to take more people in.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

That is the general idea behind it.

Is it working like that?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

The general notion is while operators will take a haircut on the price you hope it ultimately encourages modal shift and more people to use public transport, so the gain for operators in the future will be more people using buses. That 70% is not set in stone. As passenger numbers rise the compensation rate will fall. The whole idea is that it is a no loss, no gain arrangement.

The operators are reasonably happy with how it works at this point in time.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Absolutely. In fairness, a lot of people have put plenty of effort into making it work with the technology behind it and the agreement of process. I have not heard anybody who has a huge problem with it. It seems to work well and our own experience is that it is working.

Mr. David Conway

We would like to have been in it earlier. It was made available to the State operators at the beginning of April and it was September before the commercial operators could go into it.

That was a huge difficulty, especially for people who were looking at offering a service to students, etc.

Mr. David Conway

Absolutely. Of course, the counterargument exists as well. Members should not get me wrong as we are delighted to be part of the scheme and have engaged constructively with all the stakeholders to ensure we were. The counterargument is we could not really afford to not be in it as otherwise our fares would have been so out of kilter with the other transport providers that people would have-----

Put your lights out.

Mr. David Conway

They would have voted with their feet, yes.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

That is what we are experiencing with the 20% and being excluded there.

There is that other unintended consequence that has been fixed through the use of Leap cards for students aged between 16 years and-----

Mr. David Conway

And 18 years. That was announced today and we very much welcome it as well.

All right. That still leaves out young people of that age who are-----

Mr. Brendan Crowley

In third-level education, yes.

Yes, and apprentices, etc. The numbers might not be huge but it is still a section. I have been over and back with the Minister about it. It is probably something we need to look at as a committee. It is a section of people who are, again, falling between stools and a section of clients and operators could be losing.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

It is. The big cohort losing at the moment are people around the country whose public transport is provided by commercial companies because they are not able to avail, at this very pressing time, of the 20% cost-of-living saving that has been put in.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

As I have said umpteen times and a number of times in here, it is not something that will benefit me. It is the end user who will benefit from it.

It could benefit the company in the sense more people would be using it, but in an awful lot of cases the operators are providing services that are not being provided by anybody else-----

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Exactly.

-----and we are talking about, as was said, the paradigm or modal shift. That is only possible if it makes economic sense to people and if the service is there. If neither of those two things is in play then we have a bad circumstance.

The council representatives have already dealt with the issue around the licensing and all the difficulties and the processes. A small issue that came to my attention was when one is taxing buses, is there a difficulty in that one still has to go into the motor tax office and provide certain extra documentation and whatever else? There can be particular rules in motor tax offices. There was one in the Louth office that it would only deal with three people at a time. It related to queuing and in fairness, the office said it would look at it. The office probably operated certain schemes whereby it would take more and do them through the week but that would not necessarily suit people.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

I am not aware of the problems in Louth but it is necessary to attend because of the documentation required to tax it as a commercial vehicle.

That is it. The problem in Louth will be sorted. The problem with me is that in most of my questions I will add a tangent and nearly forget the question I asked. It was put to me that this is something that it should be possible to do online and in an awful lot of cases it is the same document being used over and over again. Is that right?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

It could certainly be modernised, yes.

All right. That is something we could put down if we were making a list on the streamlining of functions and processes that is necessary.

Mr. David Conway

One of the specific items that requires us to attend in person and present the physical documents when taxing a vehicle is our fleet must undergo public service vehicle, PSV, inspection and receive PSV certificates. That must be done every three years and is conducted by a PSV officer, who is a member of An Garda Síochána.

Okay. There are two other issues. One is training for drivers and there are two elements there. The first is obviously ensuring the driver, the coach and the people using the service are all safe. The second is the financial savings from particular approaches to driving. I do not want to start talking about slowing down or anything like that but do any of the companies on the council engage in this? I was made aware of and visited Drive, a virtual driving academy in Dundalk that wants to do a particular piece of work that I hope we as a committee will facilitate around young people, say, going for their driving licences. I have discovered a number of companies have taken on the likes of this service to ensure drivers are operating to best practice from the point of view of safety but also one of serious monetary savings for the company.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Many of our companies use telematics on all their vehicles, so we monitor how our drivers use the vehicles. Where vehicles are used correctly you are probably looking at a 10% saving on fuel costs. That figure is a bit ambitious at times but many companies engage in ongoing training. As I said earlier on, most of the companies are much more sophisticated now. We use every HR tool and every training opportunity we can to manage things.

I accept that. The last thing I will throw in is probably a question I should have asked earlier. I was talking about savings and all the rest of it and we all realise the changed world we are in as regards remote working. A big sell used to be the taxsaver ticket. However, even if you are trying to use rail or buses in the public system, the NTA has not necessarily been able to facilitate it technologically. There needs to be more imagination and I have a particular issue with that. Following an over-and-back, and I imagine a considerable one, with the NTA, Matthews Coaches has been able to offer that service or that idea.

That is for someone who may only be working two or three days a week, or whatever, but it means they get the benefits. They are getting those financial benefits to ensure people are using buses. What are the witnesses' views on that? Is it something people are looking at across the board?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

It is. There is no doubt but that the number of taxsaver ticket holders is down considerably at the moment. People are obviously not working five days per week so they look for discounts. My company has had to be creative in how we manage that. I understand the NTA has also looked at that issue and there is some Revenue implication. It is something that-----

As I say, Matthews Coach Hire seems to have found a solution in respect of that.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

It is the case, as I say, that individual companies have come up with solutions. It is the new reality. We cannot expect people to pay for five days' travel and work for two or three days.

That is 100% the case and we need imagination across the board. I thank our guests. I have probably run over my allotted time, which I usually do. I appreciate the interaction. There is a fair amount that we can do as a committee.

I have interacted with the CTTC since the start of the pandemic. I have spoken to Mr. Willie Martin, the local man in Limerick, and I acknowledge the work he has done. A commercial operator in Limerick lost all its supports post pandemic and the route was not commercially viable. I worked to secure a PSO for that route and it has been quite dramatic. I must get down to the granular element of the issue. I am aware of what is involved in getting the local authority to agree all the routes and bus stops. At the moment, the argument could be made that it is cumbersome. Am I correct in saying that if a route is varied in any way, unless new time schedules are agreed, a provider is required to go back to the local authority, or whoever's jurisdiction the stops fall under, and get them signed off again?

Mr. David Conway

That is correct.

I find that difficult. I worked to try to fast-track that. I saw for myself in real time the process of getting a route up and running. I am familiar with that process. If a provider is up and running within the NTA's internal system to provide the fare reduction for young adults, I presume that bringing forth the 20% reduction for the general population is only a variation on that system. Am I correct?

Mr. David Conway

We expect that to be the case.

Mr. Conway expects that would cost €24 million.

Mr. David Conway

I do.

Have many members of the CTTC had to discontinue routes from when the subsidies that were available ended until the end of June or thereabouts because the 20% reduction does not apply to them?

Mr. Barry Lynch

For our company, the 20% reduction was part of the issue but not the entire issue. Post pandemic, our passenger numbers increased by 50% but we could not get them any higher. The 20% fare reduction would certainly have helped that, as would all the various schemes. However, a modal transfer issue was also part of our problem. I know the Chairman is aware of a local situation in his constituency. We are in the constituency of Waterford. How many other such problems are being encountered around the country?

Is any work being done by the CTTC to consider the implications for its members of not qualifying for the general 20% reduction? Has the CTTC been able to do any empirical work in that regard?

Mr. David Conway

We have done some work in that regard. That work enabled us to approximate the €24 million cost to the Exchequer. Even without that specific evidence, we can see it anecdotally. We can go to any website to do a fare comparison and the disparity is glaringly obvious.

I suspect some CTTC members have PSO routes.

Mr. David Conway

That is the case.

Those companies probably have a very good picture of the situation. If the witnesses have more empirical work, we will follow up on it. We are trying to promote public transport by offering a 20% reduction on PSO routes. The argument is that to create a level playing field, that reduction should apply to all routes. Is that the point, in simple terms?

Mr. David Conway

It is. The situation should also be fair for the travelling public. It is not only about the operators who are represented here. We can make the argument all day long that we are disadvantaged and so forth. Putting us to one side, it is the travelling public who are losing out here. People in Dublin can benefit from a 20% reduction while people in many other parts of the country cannot. It is meant to be a cost-of-living measure and if that is the case, it should apply to everybody.

We will follow up on that point.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

If I may add to that, what is going to happen in the future is a real issue. When the initial cost-of-living measure was brought in, it was to run until December 2022. Many operators thought they would have to suffer until December. The budget announcement for 2023 will see the measure run into 2023. In the coming weeks, many people will be renewing their annual taxsaver tickets and their companies will be signing up with transport providers. I am aware of one case where there is suddenly competition and a massive reduction in the fares of a semi-State company compared with a commercial company. The semi-State company was more expensive than the commercial company but it will now be approximately 30% cheaper. In this day and age, taking everything else into consideration, people will look at that price difference and decide that while they do not want to leave their service provider, they do not have a choice. All that is going to happen is there will be a complete change in who uses what service. Many jobs will be lost. I do not believe people have thought this true. It is an unintended consequence, to be honest, but jobs will be lost if the matter is not rectified.

When will the cliff edge come?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

We will see significant changes in early 2023.

Why is that the case?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

In a situation where two services are operating side by side and their fares are very similar until the fares for one of the services drop by 20%, passengers will leave the service that cannot reduce fares by that amount.

Would those prices not already have dropped by 20%?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Will the Chairman repeat that?

Would those prices not already have dropped?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Most people would have bought their annual taxsaver ticket at the end of last year. Under the scheme to reduce fares by 20% announced by the Minister and launched by the NTA, people who already bought their tickets in late 2021 for 2022 would get an extension of three months into 2022 so that those who had already paid for their tickets would not lose out. That means it will be March 2023 before many people face the choice of using company A or company B. They may have used company A for many years but now company B is many hundreds of euro cheaper per annum.

How does the taxsaver ticket scheme work?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

People can buy taxsaver tickets for a month, quarter or year. Many employers buy them for the year. The employer buys the taxsaver ticket as part of a pay package so the employee does not take the pay for that and benefits through the tax system.

Has the CTTC been able to quantify how much of the business of its members is coming through that taxsaver area?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Yes, we have. The likely impact of the 20% reduction is only starting to become clear. That is only starting to-----

The CTTC will, through its members, be doing further empirical work.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

We will indeed.

The committee is available too. This is a matter we will take up. It is all about timing. It seems things are unfolding now. We do not wish for this to lead to the loss of jobs. I am in favour of supporting people who are trying to create and provide jobs.

Career paths and incomes were raised by Senator Dooley, and I get that.

Mr. Conway mentioned a second area of funding, additional to the 20%, and he outlined the priorities.

Mr. David Conway

I mentioned this in response to Senator Buttimer. There are fuel variation clauses in the current contracts to ensure that continued provision of service and the viability of services.

On the area of skills shortages, my understanding is that coach drivers are not currently covered under the work permit scheme that is coming in through the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the RSA. If a driver from, say, South Africa wants to come here, that facility is not there for the industry. How big an issue for the organisation’s members is bringing in drivers from abroad?

Mr. David Conway

It is a significant issue at the moment. In particular areas, there are driver shortages, as we are seeing daily on the ground not least in the provision of school transport services. Children are being let down and cannot get to school because there simply are not enough drivers.

I previously proposed that the category D licence be looked at but Bus Éireann, which awards the contracts, was not willing to go into that space. How great a shortage of bus drivers is there in the sector? If Mr. Conway could give a percentage, by what extent is it lacking bus drivers? What capacity is not being fulfilled?

Mr. David Conway

If we look at the industry as a whole and at the press and media arising from lost mileage and services not provided in the greater Dublin area, it points to a shortage of drivers of somewhere between 10% and 15%. It may not be as acute in more rural areas but that is just because the numbers are not as great. The ratios will be similar.

Could Mr. Conway put a figure on the number of drivers by which the industry is short?

Mr. David Conway

I could not quantify it directly but it is definitely going to run into a few thousand.

Is it a matter the council has taken up with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to see whether the industry can qualify for the recognition of foreign driving licences?

Mr. David Conway

Yes, we have.

What feedback has it got?

Mr. David Conway

I cannot speak to that feedback at the moment because one of my colleagues who is not here today is engaging on that.

Is it important to the council that it happen?

Mr. David Conway

Yes, it is. Many countries currently have a surplus of drivers, many of whom are English-speaking, which is a major bonus.

South Africa, for example.

Mr. David Conway

Yes, and many of those drivers are familiar with right-hand-drive vehicles, which is another major bonus.

Mr. Crowley referred to recruiting on the Irish side. Can the industry recruit people to become drivers at present?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Personally speaking for my business, we have been successful in recruiting trainee drivers but the problem is that lack of certainty. As employers, we are less inclined to go down that road of taking on trainee drivers when we do not know how long it will take to get them into our vehicles.

Even if foreign drivers are being brought in, that takes a period as well, given we are hearing that in respect of HGVs. Representatives of the RSA appeared before the committee last week. Does the council have no interaction with the RSA?

Mr. David Conway

Not directly, no.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

We actually discussed this problem with the NTA on the basis that it has been-----

I refer to licensing. Bus drivers would have to be licensed by the NTA.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Absolutely but, to be honest, we were hoping to bring pressure to bear on the RSA, through the authority, to identify the fact that such a problem exists. Obviously, as individual companies, we have had many engagements with the RSA.

Is Mr. Crowley referring to engagements in respect of foreign driving licences?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

In respect of general issues.

I presume our guests deal with national car test, NCT, centres as well, so there is interaction in that regard.

How long would it take to recruit someone to be able to drive a bus who has no experience but who has an ordinary driving licence?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

The problem we have right now is that we cannot bring any certainty to that because of the system. To give one example, there is an individual in respect of whom there has been a period of two to three months-----

Is that training system defined by the RSA?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

No, the RSA just provides the tests.

The tests to allow someone to become a bus driver.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Yes, but the training modules are-----

Where is the uncertainty, in that case?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

The uncertainty relates to the fact that when someone applies for a bus driving licence or test, no different from someone applying for a car driving test, he or she has no idea how long that process is going to take.

How long are drivers waiting at the moment?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

We are waiting six, seven or eight weeks at the moment. Once applicants get past that point, however, they still have to wait a further number of weeks before getting a CPC licence. A person can ultimately spend three months and not get anywhere.

Representatives of the RSA appeared before the committee last week in respect of general driving licences. The wait for them can be up to 15 weeks. For our guests' industry, it is slightly shorter than that but, with all the documentation, it can take 12 to 14 weeks.

Mr. Brendan Crowley

Yes, it is something similar.

We will follow up on this with the RSA. We have covered the skills shortages and the funding. Is there any other area our guests wish to raise?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

To take up on a point Mr. Conway made, which we have spoken to in regard to applying for route licences, we talked about the uncertainty of the process in the context of it taking eight weeks, eight months or a year. The important aspect, even as a short-term solution, is to tackle the immediate issue of where somebody needs to change something. I can apply for a licence today but I might not see it until the middle of next year, and by the time I get there, the traffic conditions may have changed. I may need to adjust the timetable and go through the process again.

Will our guests write to us specifically on the licensing system? As I understand it, a person has to apply and then agree a route with the NTA, which can take a considerable period. He or she is then required to get all the bus stops signed off by the local authority or whoever, which might be IDA Ireland or another body. How long is that typically taking?

Mr. David Conway

Many weeks.

I am familiar with that. My local authority in Limerick was exceptional in fast-tracking such cases but even then, they took time. Will our guests come up with an effective protocol based on what is happening elsewhere? If it is too complicated, it will not happen. I ask them to give timescales and come back with something with which we can approach the NTA. We would certainly like it to be a faster process.

We value the work our guests do. The school transport issue is similar in that we just cannot get drivers. Is that a fair comment?

Mr. Brendan Crowley

That is the biggest problem.

I thank Mr. Conway, Mr. Crowley and Mr. Lynch for coming before us. We ask them to write to us on those matters. We see our committee very much as one that is looking to get solutions and being proactive. We are in the process of writing to the RSA and we held off on that until our guests had appeared before us because we felt that elements of this meeting would cover its sector as well. We wish them well.

Sitting suspended at 3.29 p.m. and resumed at 3.35 p.m.

The purpose of this session is to discuss TII's report, Impact of National Road Speed Limit Reductions on Greenhouse Gas Emissions. I welcome Mr. Derek Brady, head of strategic and transport planning, and Ms Helen Hughes, director of professional services, TII. I thank the witnesses for their forbearance as the other session ran over; nonetheless it will be just as illuminating.

I will now read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identified person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. Reluctantly, I will not permit a member to take part if they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via MS Teams to confirm that they are on the grounds of Leinster House campus prior to making a contribution. If attending in the committee room, members are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I now invite Mr. Brady to make his opening statement.

Mr. Derek Brady

I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the invitation to attend today. I was appointed as head of strategic and transport planning in TII in 2019. I have a degree in electronic engineering, a masters of science in applied maths and computing and I have worked in the transport sector since 2000. I am joined by my colleague, Ms Helen Hughes, director of professional services in TII since 2015. Ms Hughes oversees several technical areas, including road safety, research and standards, environmental policy, and strategic and transport planning. I have been invited to discuss a TII report published in March entitled "Impact of National Road Speed Limit Reductions on Greenhouse Gas Emissions".

In 2020, the Department of Transport requested analytical assistance to investigate measures to reduce carbon emissions associated with the national road network. A range of speed limit reduction scenarios for national roads was assessed by TII on behalf of the Department. A key measure under consideration was the reduction of speed limits on the motorway network. Before explaining the analysis in more detail, I will provide an overview of the relationship between speed and carbon emissions in fossil fuel-powered vehicles in Ireland. Generally, emissions are highest at low speeds while the optimum speed range for petrol and diesel vehicles for limiting greenhouse gas emissions is 60 km/h to 70 km/h, depending on vehicle type. Emissions increase again above these speeds albeit more gradually. The greenhouse gas emission characteristics of the entire national vehicle fleet are a key data set in TII’s road emissions model. A detailed representation of travel patterns and traffic conditions on the network is included in TII’s national transport model, which is a multi-modal, primarily inter-urban model that includes data sets such as place of work, school or college - census of anonymised records, CSO POWSCAR, as well as other data sources. Both the transport and emissions models were used in this assessment.

In addition to detailed information on trip origins and destinations, the transport model holds road network information including speed limits for all national and regional road links. The model predicts the route drivers choose when faced with a choice of route options by estimating the generalised cost of competing route options. Generalised cost accounts for journey time, fuel and toll costs along different routes. The traffic prediction mechanism in the model is validated through comparison of the model predictions of traffic levels with actual records of traffic levels from 350 automatic traffic counters nationwide.

With a fully validated national model correctly predicting driver route choice, TII can test the impacts associated with network changes such as changes in speed limits.

TII's road emissions model integrates data on the current vehicle fleet with emission rates. The fleet information is based on the Irish car stock model version 2.1 provided by the MaREI energy and climate research team in UCC. The emission rates were sourced from the UK Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs emissions factor toolkit, which in turn was based on European COPERT emission rates.

TII analysis shows that the application of speed limit reductions to the motorway network alone would reduce the time advantage that motorways offer over alternative parallel single carriageway routes. This would result in traffic diversion from the motorway on to alternative national primary and regional routes, which also have speed limits of 100 km/h over large sections. Some of these parallel single carriageway road networks were formerly interurban national roads, for example, the former N8 between Durrow and Cork is now the R639 regional road passing through the towns of Urlingford and Johnstown, while the former N6 between Kinnegad and Galway is now the R446 regional road passing through towns such as Moate and Kilbeggan. With diversion, traffic would also be diverting back through bypassed towns and villages.

With the scenario involving a 10 km/h speed limit reduction applied to motorways only, the analysis shows that there would be a national decrease of 0.62% in carbon emissions from transport. This rises to 0.79% when a 10 km/h reduction is applied to all national roads. This is not an insignificant reduction. However, diversion of traffic to routes where motorists drive through towns and villages with stop-start driving conditions will limit the carbon emission reductions. Greater carbon emission reductions would be likely to be achieved when there is no traffic diversion. This could be achieved through broader application of speed limit reductions across the entire road network, not just on national roads.

The Department also requested that TII carry out a high-level strategic analysis on the economic and safety impacts of any national road speed limit interventions. TII used its national transport model to compute the journey time impacts of speed limit reductions. Standard values of time were used along with the journey time information to give insight into the economic impact. These are listed in appendix G of the report. For safety impacts, TII applied a standardised injury collision rate to the rerouted traffic. For the scenario where a 10 km/h speed limit reduction was applied to motorways only, there was a forecasted annual increase in road fatalities of five persons. With a 10 km/h reduction applied to all national roads, there was no forecasted change. With higher speed limit reductions applied to national roads only, the forecasted fatalities increased.

This negative safety impact is because of increased traffic diversion to less safe roads. The alternative routes available to motorway drivers include single carriageway former national primary roads between the five cities. They mostly have speed limits of 100 km/h and have low traffic volumes which facilitates driving close to the speed limit. There are accesses to many properties, there are at-grade junctions and the alternative routes pass through towns and villages. As with emissions, a wider speed limit intervention beyond national roads is not likely to cause traffic diversion and consequent safety issues.

These scenarios tested and referred to in the report were the first set of possible speed limit interventions requested to be studied by the Department. TII is working with the Department and the NTA to carry out further analysis on the impact of speed limits changes across the entire road network having regard to road safety, emissions and the implications for active travel. This work is also in the context of a wider speed limit review being carried out as action 6 in the road safety strategy.

I refer to appendix A in the report, which shows that by far the greatest carbon emissions from any vehicle with an internal combustion engine occur when the vehicle is travelling at low speeds. Concentrated, slow-moving traffic in congested urban areas results in higher amounts of emissions per vehicle kilometre travelled. This is a particular issue for freight vehicles on busy national roads. TII considers that the application of traffic management and modal shift measures in urban areas could yield significant reductions in emissions. We will endeavour to answer any questions the committee may have. If we cannot provide a comprehensive answer today, we will provide a response as soon as practicable.

I thank Mr. Brady for his presentation. From what I am seeing, this is the TII report on the impact of national road speed limit reductions so it is all about the national road network. I read the 29-page document as much as the opening statement. TII was focusing purely on the national road network, namely, the motorways and national dual and single carriageways. Much of the traffic we all encounter and generate does not involve national roads even though per miles travelled, it amounts to 45% of the total. Many Deputies and Senators drive on national roads but a large part of the general population does not drive on national roads a lot of the time. I am particularly struck by a reference to how a small car run on petrol generates enormous emissions at 5 km/h relative to 30 km/h, 50 km/h or 70 km/h. Emissions increase again when speeds increase from 80 km/h to 90 km/h. The point about the shift from 50 km/h to 80 km/h is, therefore, interesting.

My takeaway from this is that all this stuff about trying to slow people down on motorways is nonsense. It is worth having a look at but the conclusion is that this will not do much for us, whereas a modal shift and not driving at very low speeds while stuck on congested roads will do much more for emissions. I presume there is a fair number of idling buses and trucks outside shops - I see it myself - and vehicles outside schools with the engines running possibly because drivers do not want to use the battery. Emissions could be saved in other ways.

I suppose Mr. Brady is saying that we should not worry too much about the motorway network because TII's model suggests that some people would come off the motorways and start driving on other roads. Is the main reason for that just to save on tolls? I do not understand why because if the motorway speed limit was reduced from 120 km/h to 100 km/h, I would probably still want to stay on the M8 rather than go back on the N8 through various towns where I would potentially encounter congestion that I will not encounter on the M8. Perhaps if the saving was €3 each way, some people might decide it was worth it. When the tolls came in, I used to think when I saw trucks exiting the motorways that the journey would take 20 minutes longer and surely the cost to the driver in terms of time would be more expensive than the saving from not paying a toll for a truck. I do not think I realised before now that the speed limit for trucks on a motorway is 90 km/h. Is that right? I have often encountered trucks travelling as fast as I was, at 120 km/h. I did not realise there was a 90 km/h limit.

Could Mr. Brady confirm that my takeaway, which is that slowing people on motorways will increase road deaths and congestion in towns and take people off motorways that were built to get people from "A" to "B" quickly and safely, is correct? It was not part of this report because TII was focused on national roads but there is considerable scope for people to do things better in urban areas.

When representatives of the Love 30 campaign appeared before the committee they argued against having speed limits above 30 km/h in urban areas. There may be valid reasons for that in terms of road safety and someone being involved in a collision at 30 km/h rather than 50 km/h but in terms of greenhouse gas emissions, that proposal would generate more greenhouse gas emissions in urban areas than people driving at 50 km/h.

Mr. Derek Brady

We found that a reduction in speed limits on motorways and national roads causes a small reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. However, there is a particular issue with diversion. When drivers divert from motorways on to less safe roads, there is a particular risk of increased collisions.

They would also encounter congestion in towns and villages that they would not encounter on the motorway.

Mr. Derek Brady

Absolutely. It would also lead to inefficient driving through towns, etc., causing air quality issues in towns and safety risks for those engaged in active travel. That was our takeaway. There would be some carbon reductions but it would generate traffic risk to other road users. This was related to application of speed limit reductions to national roads only and that was the limit of our study. While our remit and brief in TII involves national roads only, interventions around speed limit reductions on national roads have wider and more far-reaching consequences.

One of the chief conclusions of our study was that we need to have a more holistic view and to look at interventions beyond just the national road network.

Yes, drivers factor tolls, alongside fuel costs and journey time savings, into their routing decisions. It all adds up to what we call generalised cost. Drivers factor that in, absolutely, but with a-----

Is that the main reason people in TII's model go off better, safer roads and onto older roads? I do not understand why people would do that, other than to save on tolls, if the speed limit is the same on both roads.

Mr. Derek Brady

They do so because the motorway may not be a direct route for the origin and the destination, that is, the trip they are taking, but they are prepared to divert onto the motorway, to take a longer trip if-----

They get speed savings.

Mr. Derek Brady

Yes, time savings.

Yes, because of speed.

Mr. Derek Brady

Absolutely.

Urban areas are not dealt with in TII's report but are kind of in its conclusions, where it is stated: "Concentrated, slow-moving traffic in congested urban areas results in higher amounts of emissions per vehicle-kilometre." Appendix A very much reflects that. What are the witnesses' thoughts on Love 30? If everybody in Dublin or all urban areas were mandated to drive at no faster a speed than 30 km/h, would there likely be an increase in emissions over people being allowed to drive at 50 km/h?

Mr. Derek Brady

That was not the focus of our study. Interurban roads are our focus in TII, so we did not look at that and I do not have a view on it. The picture in the cities is more complex.

Mr. Brady is the engineer in the room, though. I mean this in a positive way. His written submission states: "I have a degree in Electronic Engineering, a Masters of Science in Applied Maths and Computing and have worked in the transport sector since 2000." I am looking to pull on his expertise as he is in the room. Appendix A shows that the slower a vehicle drives the higher its greenhouse gas emissions. There are plenty of times when drivers cannot drive at 50 km/h anyway, and I accept all that. If, however, we were to reduce the limit to 30 km/h from 50 km/h, would it be likely we would end up with more greenhouse gas emissions in urban areas? If the answer to that is "No", that is perfectly fine. I am just asking Mr. Brady his opinion as to whether the answer is "No" or "Yes".

Mr. Derek Brady

Urban areas are very complex landscapes from a transport perspective. There is a lot to be taken into consideration and particular dangers to those engaged in active travel, so I will not offer an opinion as to what is best for the city. That is best left to those managing the cities.

Ms Helen Hughes

Where there is a large freight content we would not recommend 30 km/h speed limits because we can see the proportion of greenhouse gas emissions from freight, so definitely not a 30 km/h zone-----

Ms Hughes is talking about routes that involve a lot of freight vehicles and forcing freight to drive at 30 km/h. Ideally, active travel and so on are separated from freight. That was the whole purpose of the port tunnel and lots of other interventions. I was cycling yesterday and a fuel tanker came flying through Ranelagh at a speed that I would say was a lot faster than 30 km/h or 50 km/h. I was, if not shook, a bit wary that it was a much bigger vehicle than I am used to. There is an opportunity in that regard. The more places where TII can intervene to keep freight away from pedestrians, cyclists and even motorists, the better.

Ms Helen Hughes

I do not think Love 30 focuses on freight routes.

Fair enough. I am quite positively disposed towards Love 30. I just wanted to get the take of the witnesses on it because, clearly, the slower a driver goes the more emissions produced per kilometre travelled.

Ms Helen Hughes

The stop-start effect is the most significant. If a driver is cruising at 30 km/h without-----

Electric vehicles over time will change a lot of this activity anyway.

Ms Helen Hughes

Exactly.

It is to be hoped we will not be having this discussion in ten years. Is it by 2030 that petrol and diesel vehicles can be driven but can no longer be sold?

The conclusion I am getting at is that there is not an awful lot of value in deciding to change the speed limit on the national motorway network from 120 km/h to 100 km/h. In fact, it could result in an increase in fatalities or injuries and will result in diversion through towns. That is the conclusion of the report.

Mr. Derek Brady

We would take a cautious view. What we learnt through the study is that tolls on motorways alone would cause more problems with regard to road safety-----

A reduction in speeds.

Mr. Derek Brady

Yes.

It would cause more problems than it would solve.

Ms Helen Hughes

Unless the parallel competing routes are changed as well.

We would be dropping the speed limits on the motorways and then dropping the speed limits-----

Mr. Derek Brady

Across the board. Exactly.

-----on the old roads in order that the comparative advantage is still there.

Ms Helen Hughes

Yes, the differential.

Mr. Derek Brady

Exactly.

Thank you, a Chathaoirligh. I am conscious of the time.

Ms Helen Hughes

The next phase of the research is to put the actual figures on that.

I welcome Mr. Brady and Ms Hughes to the meeting. The proposal to lower speed limits by 10 km/h, if I read TII's document right, would result in a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions of 0.7%. Is that correct?

Ms Helen Hughes

On all national roads.

Mr. Derek Brady

Yes, on all national roads.

From that, then, TII states that a reduction in the speed limits on national roads and motorways would have a limited impact on greenhouse gas emissions. Is that correct?

Mr. Derek Brady

In percentage terms it looks limited but it is still significant because the baseline for that percentage is all carbon emissions from transport in the country.

The piece I cannot understand - I apologise for missing it - is that the potential for road deaths and accidents would increase. Will the witnesses explain that further?

Mr. Derek Brady

If we were to apply speed limit reductions on motorways alone, some drivers would not have the journey time advantage they previously had and might see benefit in transferring to other single-carriageway routes without the safety benefits of motorways. If significant volumes of traffic were to transfer to single-carriageway or, as we call them, undivided roads, there would likely be an increase in accidents and fatalities. We estimated the increase in fatalities to be five per annum in the scenario in which we reduced motorway speed limits only and did not reduce speed limits on competing routes.

I apologise. How many additional deaths per year could that scenario result in?

Mr. Derek Brady

Five.

If we were to implement reduced speed limits as per the report, there would be an economic impact. Did I see somewhere that the impact would be a loss of €3.8 billion?

Mr. Derek Brady

The figure is in the back of the report.

Yes. I thought I saw it in the report. I could be wrong.

Mr. Derek Brady

For the various scenarios the impact was between €14 million and €88 million per annum.

As for the Macroom bypass, has TII reached a conclusion with the contractor in the form of an agreement to open the project early?

Ms Helen Hughes

I would have to refer that query to my colleagues. I do not have the detail on that-----

I am concerned. If the Macroom bypass is to open early in the context of a vanity project by a certain date - I will be careful in what I say, a Chathaoirligh - and if there is no agreement with the contractor, what is the impact of that on TII? Second, what is the impact of it from a safety point of view in the context of the assessment, in particular around the entire development of the road? What happens when something goes wrong? The witnesses are not able to answer that today.

Ms Helen Hughes

I am not, I am afraid. Another division within TII looks after-----

I will not put the witnesses on the spot or create a row in the context of the additional budgetary costs. I ask and propose, however, that we invite in the relevant section of TII as soon as possible to discuss the issues in this regard.

In the report there is a section on speed cameras and consultation involving Garda checkpoints or speed checks. Is that within TII's remit?

Ms Helen Hughes

Yes. I am involved in the road safety strategy.

May I ask two further questions? Let me put everything in context.

I am a strong supporter of the road safety strategy and having speed checks on roads. Members will have heard me make reference to two points at a number of meetings. I do not understand the rationale for why there is a speed van as you head eastbound into the Jack Lynch tunnel in Cork. The second issue is in coming out of the tunnel heading westbound. Here is where I have a fundamental difficulty. I hope that after this meeting the witnesses will have a discussion about road signage around construction and temporary speed signs or temporary speed areas. I am not sure if the witnesses are familiar with coming out of the Jack Lynch tunnel.

Ms Helen Hughes

I am but I have not been down at Dunkettle recently.

That is all right. I appreciate that there are works going on in Dunkettle that require very strong public safety messages, traffic calming and speed management. I understand that. Coming out of the tunnel and heading towards Blackrock, Rochestown and Mahon Point, there is a temporary speed sign and a construction sign but there is no construction heading westbound. Those types of measures undermine the strategy of slowing and controlling speed. As you head further westbound towards the Bishopstown Court roundabout, heading beyond the dog track towards Ballincollig, there is occasionally a member of An Garda Síochána on that road operating a handheld camera and checking speeding from a motorbike on the side of the hard shoulder, which is very dangerous. I have made the point at this committee. It is shooting fish in a barrel on the motorway and on the N40 heading in both directions. I could leave my house and by the time I get to Fermoy I could have encountered four checks - either a speed van or Garda - yet I can travel some of the national routes, which in my opinion as layperson are far more dangerous, with no effective speed controls. That is just my observation.

Ms Helen Hughes

Are the speed vans GoSafe vans?

Ms Helen Hughes

That is a matter for the Garda Síochána. We can raise this at the road safety transformation board.

I am not against speed vans. Ms Hughes might think I am a crank but I am not. I just think it defies the whole purpose of what TII and the RSA are trying to achieve. It is not right on that particular section of the road. That is my only observation on that. I would love to hear the rationale TII is employing with An Garda Síochána on the N40. I have campaigned for speed cameras, GoSafe vans and Garda speeding measures in many different parts of my area but I just do not understand those two. I thank the witnesses for being here and for their work. I hope they do not think I am a crank because I am not. However, it undermines what TII, the RSA and An Garda Síochána are trying to achieve in those areas. Heading westbound there is temporary road signage and a temporary construction sign with no evidence of construction. If there is construction I would love to see it. For road construction markings on the motorway, there should be an advance alert system closer to the cones and to the people working there, whether they are cleaning the road or doing roadworks. In America there are flashing signs or more notification for motorists. That would help.

Ms Helen Hughes

Is the Senator asking about specifically about road construction or traffic management on motorways or just in general?

Both. In America, there is a member of the police force at either end of the construction. I support the need for the ongoing work and it is great that it is being done at night, but some of the advance notification could be improved. That is all. It is just my observation, having travelled at night and witnessed the way people ahead of me must take corrective action. Advising people earlier is something the witnesses should look at if they can. Ms Hughes might have a different view and I would like to hear that.

Ms Helen Hughes

I will pass on that comment to motorway traffic management. There is a standard but it is something we should look at, particularly for night time.

I have noticed in the last couple of weeks as I head home from Dublin at night that there has been a lot of construction. That is great but the level of advance notification could be improved. That is all. I am not being critical; it is just an observation. I thank the witnesses for everything and I appreciate the work they are doing.

I thank the witnesses. I have a couple of quick questions. When this report was first reported on in the media, it landed very strangely. People were surprised by it. I expect the witnesses have been challenged on it and will be challenged here today. I would like to know about the robustness of the research. I do not know if this type of research has been conducted in the past in this unit. How does it compare? I presume this research is not peer-reviewed, but maybe it is. The witnesses touched on some of this in their opening remarks.

Mr. Derek Brady

We use a national transport model, which is created by consultants with international experience. There is no bespoke element to this. That is validated by experienced professionals outside of TII. The safety collision rates are based on data from the RSA and external safety professionals. There were no assumptions made for this analysis. We carried out standard transport modelling and that is it.

One of the assumptions made in the report is that there would be a change in the speed limits on motorways but there is no comparable speed limit on local roads or regional roads. That incentive or time benefit would have a significant application in terms of opportunities for collisions or anything like that.

Mr. Derek Brady

Absolutely.

The witnesses are going to do that piece of work.

Mr. Derek Brady

The main finding in our study was that there are emissions reductions but the diversion that results from the application of the speed limit reduction to motorways alone causes problems. Motorways are about seven times more safe than single carriageway roads. TII would not like to promote diversion away from the safe motorway network.

This is my interest in the subject. This diversion is already happening on roads all over my constituency. People come off motorways like the M1 in heavy goods vehicles and go through Slane or Kilmoon Cross. I hear about the congestion on the traffic reports every morning. People come off the M3 to avoid the tolls and come through the Fairyhouse roundabout. We have heard from the hauliers that there is stopping and starting at the tolls in the port tunnel. Has TII ever considered its tolling policy and the impact of tolls on the movement and diversion of traffic, particularly for heavy goods vehicles? Has it considered the impact of that on how well our road infrastructure works, including from an emissions perspective?

Mr. Derek Brady

What we have modelled in this report is how truck drivers and other drivers react and what motivates them in their choice of route. They do consider tolls.

Has TII ever specifically been asked to look at tolling policy and how it might be tweaked to incentivise an efficient use of our road network from a climate perspective, or any other perspective?

Ms Helen Hughes

That is a question we were asked a few years ago. The then Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, asked us to do a toll-free November, and we did a report on the impact of that. There is definitely an impact on HGVs and other vehicles, which do divert.

Is the report publicly available?

Ms Helen Hughes

Yes. I will give the Deputy a copy of it. We have the public-private partnerships, PPPs, that are delivering on Government policy. We put in tolls to pay them back. We have not been specifically asked to review our entire tolling policy.

This is my final question, as I know we are tight on time. There is a specific ask from hauliers whom we hear from in the committee about the tolling system for the Dublin Port Tunnel and the fact that they must stop and start. They have forensically accounted for the cost of the amount of diesel, rubber breaks and carbon emissions. Is that something TII has considered? It does have responsibility for that through the Roads Act.

Ms Helen Hughes

We do. I know it is something that we are looking at. Just after the toll barrier, in the southbound direction, there are junctions and traffic lights that will constrain traffic anyway on accessing the port. It is something some of my other colleagues are looking at and I will pass on the question to them.

I thank Ms Hughes.

We get the idea behind this report: we are looking for best practice in the future. As has been outlined, we know there are major difficulties with how we deal with all the variables and constants in urban transport. It is not only about reducing emissions: it is also about the other factors such as safety and impacting on those who are involved in active travel. Like any issue, it is easy to sort if we deal with it in a silo, but this is not quite the case.

I think of issues we have such as the R173 road in the Bellurgan area. The problem is from a safety point of view on the strait on the Cooley Peninsula with the school. If one continues on that particular road there is Greenore Port and a significant amount of transport travelling over and back. That is a regional road. I am not entirely sure how we put the whole infrastructure together from the point of view of us getting the best bang for our buck or best practice across the board in that regard. I will look for a response on that and I have another couple of questions regarding tolls.

Ms Helen Hughes

Is the question on policy?

I am asking about policy and specifics.

Ms Helen Hughes

The Deputy mentioned ports.

We could talk about many issues in that regard, or we could talk about the Ardee bypass and the multiple issues we have, but I accept we are here to discuss this report. The question is how we get to a better place that delivers for everybody in that regard, while taking everything into account from safety to emissions.

Apart from the port tunnel, we also hear from coach operators about the difficulty of being stuck with the cost of travelling via the M1 toll bridge. Apart from the cost, there is also the environmental damage that is being done. We are trying to facilitate public transport and buses in particular.

I have a tendency to go off on tangents and to stretch the remit. Another issue relates to the view of TII on the fact that buses travelling to Belfast can use the hard shoulder on certain sections of the motorway, which facilitates them. Is that something that could be looked at from the point of view of Dublin? It has been brought to my attention by companies such as Matthews Coaches and others.

Ms Helen Hughes

In response to the Deputy's first question about how we decide where we invest, we are very linked to Government policy. We implement the national development plan and the new investment framework, the national investment framework for transport in Ireland, NIFTI, and all the regional policy bases. We also have TEN-T regulations. Deputy Ó Murchú mentioned the Port of Greenore. We want roads to link to the tier 1 and tier 2 ports. We respond to policy but then we have an appraisal system that tries to balance safety, economics - carbon is a bigger factor - integrated with policy on accessibility. When we are looking at any intervention, we must balance all of those areas.

Yes, and there are going to be multiple anomalies in the sense that a particular road would be fine if only people were not living in its vicinity. Certain roadways would probably not be designed today the way they are. Beyond that, there are schools, which create logistical difficulties and safety concerns, in particular at certain times of day.

Ms Helen Hughes

Safety is obviously a big issue, and economic benefits. Regarding buses, we are developing a project on the M4 between Leixlip and Maynooth where the hard shoulder is being converted into an inward-bound bus lane to give advantage to buses in the morning.

What sort of distance is involved?

Ms Helen Hughes

It is on the M4 between the Maynooth junction towards Leixlip. I do not know what length that is. It is a transport corridor. We are looking at the radials into Dublin. Another route we are looking at as well is the N11 corridor.

Is TII looking at the M1?

Ms Helen Hughes

The only reason we would consider it is where there is congestion.

There is a huge amount of congestion at the moment.

Ms Helen Hughes

A lot of buses use the Dublin Port Tunnel. We are not looking at the M1 as a bus corridor.

But it is something that could be looked at. TII is looking at the general idea.

Ms Helen Hughes

We are looking at different radial routes.

Therefore, it is a fair enough proposal that we probably need to do a piece of work on it.

Mr. Derek Brady

There are parallel BusConnects plans not far from the M1. It is not TII that is carrying out the projects, but they would serve that demand.

Ms Helen Hughes

Is the Deputy talking about intercity buses or Dublin Bus?

No, I am talking about facilitating coach operators generally from Dundalk, Drogheda and other areas within my constituency, which is why I am concerned about them. In fairness, it was brought to my attention recently by those involved in the business and also by people who use the service. They both came up with the same solution.

Ms Helen Hughes

Often, when we put in the bus corridors the whole section has a reduced speed limit.

That is a given. We all know what we are dealing with in that regard. I expect we were dealing with a reduced speed limit this morning on nearly every major motorway coming into Dublin.

Ms Helen Hughes

Yes.

If TII could fix all of that at the same time it is dealing with emissions, we would all be very grateful.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentation which I watched in my office.

Is the report peer-reviewed?

Mr. Derek Brady

It is not peer-reviewed. It was created by Aecom international consultants. In terms of a peer review of an academic nature, the answer is "No".

It is not peer-reviewed. Okay. Does the report look at actual speeds on our network or does it assume that vehicles are travelling at the speed limit?

Mr. Derek Brady

With the model, we assume that vehicles travel up to the speed limit.

Okay. Does Mr. Brady know of any analysis, or has TII done any analysis, that looks at actual speeds?

Mr. Derek Brady

There has been analysis with regard to the automatic number plate recognition, ANPR, system on the N7.

Has it been done on a network basis?

Mr. Derek Brady

No, not on a network basis.

The input assumption of this report is that people are travelling at the speed limit, which could be different to the actual speed at which they are travelling.

Mr. Derek Brady

Yes, absolutely.

Can Mr. Brady tell me about the success of the M7 and M50 average speed cameras?

Mr. Derek Brady

I am not directly involved in it but Ms Hughes may have that detail.

Ms Helen Hughes

At the moment, the M7 is working quite well. We have 30 convictions per week on that according to the Garda whereas the numbers passing would be in the thousands. The M7 is, therefore, working very well and so are the average speed cameras in the Dublin tunnel. The speed limits we are putting in on the M50 are variable speed limits. They are not being enforced because we are waiting on legislation for that.

Okay. It is just the M7 on which TII those limits are in place.

Ms Helen Hughes

And the Dublin tunnel.

It is fair to say it has been significantly successful and people are maintaining the speed limit. That has been shown over the course of the trial and the implementation.

Ms Helen Hughes

It has been very successful. The average speed has been very successful.

We have a situation where the average speed cameras have a significant impact on driver behaviour. It is true to say that when they are there, drivers will drive at the speed limit for the most part. However, this report does not look at actual speeds that are being driven on our network and, therefore, if that is the input assumption, the output of the report is absolutely flawed.

I mention that because it says there will be a small reduction in carbon emissions if we reduce the speed limits. We might look at the actual speed limits, however. I referred to other studies, including an EU study, which show that a reduction of 17% or 18% in carbon emissions comes about from enforcement of speed limits coupled with a reduction of 10 km/h on the motorway network. Therefore, it seems to me there is a huge risk that coming out of this report, policymakers feel it makes no sense to reduce the speed limit. It makes sense to reduce the speed limit, however, and put in rigorous enforcements such that people drive at the speed limit. I make that point not to undermine the results. The 1% or 2% reduction in emissions is still very important. It seems to me, however, that we can get more if we get the reduction plus the enforcement. I acknowledge that even if everybody drove at the speed limit today, that 1% or 2% is still important because we have to find those reductions across our whole transport system. I would urge caution, however. I am not saying TII is saying this. TII carried out this report and had a specific remit. It is really important that we acknowledge there are limitations to the report. It should not be said coming out of this committee that speed limits have a very minor impact. I was really disappointed by the headline from earlier in the year that stated there will be 35 extra fatalities. I am not saying TII is responsible for that. That assumes nothing else has been done throughout the network when, of course, we could have speed mitigation right throughout the network. This is not directed at TII but that headline leverages the tragedies that so many people across this country have suffered on our roads to push against any change in our speed limits. I am not putting that accusation at TII but more so at the media, which ran with that headline. I know there is very little time left but the witnesses might respond within a minute or so.

Mr. Derek Brady

We agree that enforcement and compliance with speed limits would reduce emissions. I think the assumptions in the report are sound and our conclusions are sound but I agree that with a lower speed limit, more emissions reductions would occur. The key point in the report, however, is that selective application of speed limit reductions to motorways and not to broader networks-----

It needs to be across the network and the system.

Mr. Derek Brady

-----will divert traffic onto single-carriageway roads where people are walking, cycling etc. It is against what we all want today.

The message then is that this is not the only thing we should do as policymakers. We should look at the whole system.

Mr. Derek Brady

Exactly.

Ms Helen Hughes

That is the next stage of the analysis we are doing with the Department.

TII is doing analysis. Okay, I thank the witnesses.

I am sorry; what will that analysis entail?

Ms Helen Hughes

Looking at the broader network.

Mr. Derek Brady

Our analysis in this report was largely confined to interventions on speed limits on the national road network. Through our work, however, we realised that the speed limits on national roads cannot just be changed because that impacts traffic diverting to regional roads, former national roads and single-carriageway roads. We are working with the Department and the NTA on a more holistic analysis looking at speed limit reductions across all networks, the impact on road safety and emissions and enabling active travel.

Is Mr. Brady talking then about a kind of hierarchy in terms of speed limits going from motorways to national and regional roads?

Mr. Derek Brady

Absolutely. We need a hierarchy where there is going to be fast driving because those have to be the safest roads.

TII's report is saying in layman's terms that reducing the speed on motorways drives people onto the national roads and reducing the speed on national roads drives people onto the regional roads.

Mr. Derek Brady

Yes.

Did TII factor reducing the speeds and cascading down along into that?

Mr. Derek Brady

We were asked by the Department just to look at national road interventions.

Did TII not look at speed limits below that tier?.

Mr. Derek Brady

No. We started to investigate that on regional roads, which is technically outside our remit, in scenario 6 in the report. We looked at that, however, and engineering the speed limits down does reduce the incentive for drivers to divert onto regional roads.

Has TII been able to measure the greenhouse gas emissions on the various forms of roads in Ireland, for instance, what percentage comes from motorways, national roads and regional roads? Does TII have that kind of empirical work done?

Mr. Derek Brady

We do. We have done that. I do not have those figures today but we have done that.

That would obviously be a big factor as well.

Ms Helen Hughes

We produce national indicators every year which show that 45% of the traffic is on national roads and another 40% or something like that is on regional roads. We can come back to the Chairman on that.

Is there a direct correlation from that figure to the greenhouse gas emissions generated by both or does a much higher percentage come from motorways?

Mr. Derek Brady

Travel on motorways and national roads, if it is free-flow travel outside of congestion, will be more efficient in one sense. If one looks at the fuel gauge in any car, one will know that the fuel is not dropping as fast on a free-flow road versus an urban situation. Therefore, broadly speaking, there would be fewer emissions per kilometre.

I will keep going. Appendix A of the report makes for very interesting reading. For the ordinary layperson out there, when we look at the different types of cars, we see that a small petrol car is most efficient when it is doing approximately 60 km/h. A medium-sized petrol car is best when it is doing approximately 70 km/h. A large petrol car, interestingly, is better when it is doing 80 km/h. A small diesel car is better when it is doing 70 km/h, a medium-sized diesel car when it is doing 70 km/h and a large diesel car when it is doing 70 km/h. Then, it is very interesting that hybrids are highly efficient at 50 km/h. Small, medium and large hybrids and, then again, electric vehicles are all best when doing 50 km/h.

What is an LGV?

Mr. Derek Brady

It is a light goods vehicle.

Ms Helen Hughes

Vans.

They are at 50 km/h. Then the small HGVs are better at 50 km/h. It is very interesting that when one goes down into the lower range, in many cases they are all very highly inefficient. With emissions, if traffic is free-flowing it is fine in many cases when travelling at low kilometres per hour. For example, a small petrol car is far more inefficient doing 20 km/h than 110 km/h, which is ironic. It is very interesting. Am I correct or am I off the pace there?

Mr. Derek Brady

The Chairman is absolutely correct. That was not the principal focus of our study, but we did refer to it. We were surprised when we learned of the particular nature of emissions at low speeds.

If we consider the small petrol car, which many people would have, it is far more inefficient when travelling below 50 km/h. It is the same at 50 km/h, but it is highly inefficient at 30 km/h. It is very inefficient at 20 km/h, and it is highly inefficient altogether at 10 km/h. It is best at 60 km/h. Going back to the question, the model is really built around getting free-flowing traffic moving in or around that 50 km/h or 60 km/h range. Am I correct in that and in saying that it should be free-flowing?

Mr. Derek Brady

The model will compute when there is congestion and when traffic demand on a link exceeds a certain limit of the speeds that are-----

On average, cars are at their most efficient when travelling at between 50 km/h, 60 km/h and 70 km/h. Is that correct?

Mr. Derek Brady

Yes. As the Chairman has outlined, the hybrids have a strange nature when the electric motor-----

They are very good at 50 km/h. They are very good around urban driving and are very suitable for that.

Mr. Derek Brady

Yes, but their benefit reduces when they are on motorways. There are just like an internal combustion engine vehicle at higher speeds.

At 110 km/h, a small electric vehicle is not quite as bad as a small petrol car, but it is getting there. It is still better than a diesel combustion car or a petrol combustion car on the motorway. Am I right?

Mr. Derek Brady

Yes.

Can Mr. Brady explain to me, as an ordinary person, why those greenhouse gas emissions are higher than one would expect at the higher speeds?

Mr. Derek Brady

It is because they are hybrid vehicles so there is-----

I am talking about PHEVs. What are they?

Mr. Derek Brady

They are plug-in hybrid electric vehicles.

So, they are still hybrids.

Mr. Derek Brady

They are hybrids. Yes.

Did TII carry out an analysis of electric-only cars?

Mr. Derek Brady

It is not here. There is not a significant proportion of electric vehicles nationally. This is why it does not figure in the table.

Has TII any empirical work as to what those greenhouse gas emissions are at the various speeds? Can TII do that?

Mr. Derek Brady

From experience, I am aware that their energy consumption increases at higher speeds. They face the same wind resistance issues at higher speeds that all cars face. It is also down to the supply of electricity nationally and the proportion of carbon in the mix in the energy supply nationally. These would impact on what carbon emissions we would associate with their use.

Has TII been able to do any empirical work on that?

Mr. Derek Brady

No, not on electric vehicles.

Could I ask that you would?

Mr. Derek Brady

Yes.

That is something we would like to see. We are looking at appendix A, which is missing a huge element that we are looking to push in the context of electric cars. We would ask that TII would carry out this empirical work and come back to us on that.

Mr. Derek Brady

Absolutely.

I thank TII for this very informative report. I would really like to see TII doing more work of this nature so we can make really well-informed decisions as to how we could have a more sustainable and safer road network in the future. I thank TII for doing this really important work.

I have some quick questions and observations. The report makes the case that by reducing speed limit limits on our national motorway network, we would run the risk of having at least 35 additional fatalities each year because, ultimately, we would drive people off that network and onto the secondary, regional and local road networks. Are we to assume that in doing so and running the risk of those fatalities, that those people leaving the motorway network would, by definition, be breaking the speed limit on those other roads? As the Chairman stated, if one was to reduce the speed limit on a national network, perhaps by bringing it down to 110 km/h, one will have to have a cascading reduction across the entire road network. I travel quite a lot on the M6 from Dublin to Galway. It does not make sense that somebody who decides, for example, to depart the M6, and who observes the speed limit on what was the old N6, would still make a time gain between Dublin and Galway. It would not be physically possible. Are we to assume that those additional fatalities that occur off the national motorway network happen, in the main, because people are breaking the speed limit on those more minor roads? That is my first question.

Mr. Derek Brady

I thank the Deputy for the question. Even if they comply with the speed limits, the risks are much greater on a single carriageway versus a motorway. It is a factor of about seven per unit of traffic. Obviously, if there is a lack of compliance with speed limits the risks increase further.

Camera enforcement is currently working quite well, from what I can gather, on the M7. Are there any plans to roll that out nationally across the whole motorway network?

Ms Helen Hughes

We are looking at that in the context of action 6 of the road safety strategy. Action 7 looks at the speed limits and different measures we can use to intervene quickly to reduce speeding. There is general agreement that average-speed cameras are worth doing. There is a cost to them and there is a lot of back-office processing associated with it. It is not-----

Is Ms Hughes saying that most of it is not automated?

Ms Helen Hughes

It is automated but then there is the enforcement part. We only have two locations at the moment. It is not in our current plans for the road safety strategy to provide more because it is being brought to the road safety transport meeting group, and it will go into the ministerial committee for road safety. The particular application of average-speed cameras is where we are actually having a lot of speeding on motorways. It is where the volumes of traffic on motorways are quite low.

Ms Helen Hughes

Yes, are low. It is because people have much bigger gaps. The M7 is a much lower volume section of the motorway network. Other areas are not observing such over speeding. With recent fuel increases, anecdotally and with data sources that can show it, I believe that speeding has reduced. People are conscious of fuel costs. Average-speed cameras are not the panacea. We would have to be mindful of where it is actually needed.

It certainly is an essential part of the toolkit.

Ms Helen Hughes

Absolutely.

How does Ireland compare with our European counterparts in the percentage of our national road network that is covered by these speed camera systems?

Ms Helen Hughes

I do not have the answer to that. When we were introducing these we looked at Scotland, but I do not have the data on that.

Is Scotland further along the road, excuse the pun, with regard to installation? What has been the Scottish experience?

Ms Helen Hughes

They were early starters. They were a few years ahead of us.

Is Ms Hughes saying that in our current road safety strategy, Our Journey Towards Vision Zero, there is no commitment to any further installation of these?

Ms Helen Hughes

In one of the actions we say we will look at all of the suite of measures such as variable speed limits, vehicle actuated measures that flash at the motorist, special periodic speed limits at schools, and average speed cameras and average speed limits. We are looking at the whole suite of measures to see which ones should we do more of. That work is under way.

If I can stretch my time just a little please, I have one final question that is not wholly unrelated. Many of us in the Houses have experience of travelling throughout Europe.

It always astounds me when travelling to countries such as Germany, France and the Netherlands that an awful lot more work is under way, or has been carried out, on traffic-calming at the entrances to regional towns and villages. In fact, in France, for example, it is almost the norm, whereby if a motorist is approaching a 30 km/h speed limit at the edge of a village, it is physically impossible for him or her to drive any faster because of physical obstacles that have been put in the way by the local authority.

I acknowledge that TII is not responsible for the vast majority of our rural towns and villages because the network for which it is responsible does not encounter them, but there are many other locations where this applies. I am thinking of one in my constituency, namely, a village called Ballinderreen on the N67 between Galway and Kinvara. A programme of work is under way that will, we hope, minimise the speed limit-breaking that occurs regularly in that village. Has TII ever gone down the road of exploring that option in the interests of safety on its network? Where its network dissects small rural villages such as the one I mentioned, what work is being done to see what could be done? Obviously, maintaining traffic flow is an important part of TII’s function, but I would argue that a far greater part of its function relates to ensuring that, ultimately, we have safer roads.

Ms Helen Hughes

Absolutely. A speed limit review group is looking at the 30 km/h speed limit and the introduction of other measures. Currently, even if a village is located on a national road, we apply the design manual for urban roads, DMUR, devised by the Department of Transport, which physically changes the layout to make it more self-regulating.

Yes, that is my point.

Ms Helen Hughes

If we are introduce a 30 km/h limit, we will have to work harder to ensure that the physical layout is naturally enforcing such that people cannot exceed 30 km/h. Our representatives sit on groups, along with the Department, that are looking at how we can make 30 km/h zones self-regulating.

Does DMUR need a re-examination of the criteria it sets out?

Ms Helen Hughes

If we go for more 30 km/h zones, I think so.

This is a matter we will come back to. Our guests have further work to do, and we ask that if they have the information on EV cars, they give it to us. For an ordinary person looking in, the issue is fascinating. In general, the public now wants to get on board with climate action but, obviously, it has to be practical and, for many people, sustainable. Appendix A is very interesting. It is the type of document the ordinary person will read, and that is how we are going to get to that space to make progress on climate action. If our guests have done work on EVs, they might come back to us and we will return to the matter. When do they anticipate the next report will be complete? Is work under way?

Ms Helen Hughes

We will have to revert to the committee given we are working with the Department and the NTA on this area, and the first-----

Have terms of reference been agreed?

Mr. Derek Brady

Our first meetings on that were held in recent weeks.

Who will carry out the work?

Ms Helen Hughes

Both us and the NTA.

The organisations are finalising the scope of the work they will do.

Mr. Derek Brady

Yes.

I think it requires a full body of work in respect of all the road networks. Otherwise, it will be complete. In the work they do initially on EVs, our guests might integrate this matter into that.

Mr. Derek Brady

Absolutely

Do our guests have documentation on EV cars that they could include?

Mr. Derek Brady

We could find that without a problem.

Our guests might send us that as well.

I thank Mr. Brady and Ms Hughes for assisting the committee on this important matter. The next meeting of the joint committee will be a private session on MS Teams at 4 p.m. on Tuesday, 25 October 2022.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.44 p.m. until 7 p.m. on Tuesday, 8 November 2022.
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