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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Wednesday, 14 Dec 2022

National Aviation Policy: Aer Lingus (Resumed)

Apologies have been received from Senator Craughwell. The purpose of today's meeting is to resume our discussion of national aviation policy. We are joined by representatives of Aer Lingus. I am very pleased to welcome Ms Lynne Embleton, CEO, Mr. Donal Moriarty, chief corporate affairs officer, Mr. Peter O'Neill, chief operations officer, and Mr. Reid Moody, chief strategy and planning officer. They are all very welcome.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to the identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such directions.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. Reluctantly, I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask members partaking via MS Teams that prior to making a contribution to the meeting they confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus. If attending in the committee room, they are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I invite Ms Embleton to make her opening statement.

Ms Lynne Embleton

The committee has our written statement.

Ms Lynne Embleton

Rather than reading out the statement, I will highlight some key areas we believe are important. Having a robust and implemented national aviation policy is critical to Ireland. As we know, airlines connect people, businesses and places, and bring social and economic benefit to the country. It was recognised in the current aviation policy that the estimated value of aviation to Ireland in 2019 was some €8.9 billion in GDP contributions from air transport. A connected country attracts inward investment. Aviation is important for every country but never more than for an island nation.

Breadth of connectivity needs a hub. There is an exponential effect on the breadth of routes that can be served by operating a competitive hub. That brings me to the first area, namely, infrastructure. We very much welcome the opening of the second runway at Dublin Airport but that is only part of what is required. What is critical is the corresponding infrastructure, including piers, stands and flow through the airport, that allows Ireland to make the most of that second runway. Such infrastructure is necessary for an efficient, competitive and attractive hub that will bring more flights and more passengers to Ireland. We believe we need to see the rapid development of that infrastructure in Dublin. Accordingly, we also believe the planning process around infrastructure development needs to recognise the important national infrastructure that is the subject of that planning.

I will turn to the matter of regulation. We believe the economic regulation of key airports is critical. We have seen that in the outcomes of economic regulation in the past few years, where the costs that emerged from that allowed the airlines to develop flights and to bring more passengers into airports. We believe economic regulation plays a very important role in ensuring Ireland's aviation is competitive.

I will now move to the third and, arguably, the most important area which is that of sustainability. We know flying is a force for good but carbon is the problem. IAG has been and is the leader among the airline industry in the area of sustainability. We were the first airline to commit to net zero by 2050 and that is a commitment the industry has now followed. We were the first European airline group to commit to 10% sustainable aviation fuel by 2030 and we are the only European airline group, and one of only two airlines globally, to achieve the A rating in the core carbon disclosure project. We are completely committed to sustainable aviation. There is a pathway. We need financially healthy airlines to be able to invest in new technology and, indeed, in Aer Lingus we have bought new-generation aircraft into our fleet even this year. Those new generation aeroplanes are significantly less carbon emitting and quieter for communities.

Single European Skies will play an important role in reducing carbon emissions. It is technically feasible and needs political will.

Importantly, while new generation and yet to be developed technology can reduce carbon on short-sector flights, for long-haul flights, which are critical to Ireland and the connectivity across to the United States, for example, that will require sustainable aviation fuel, SAF. Aer Lingus has signed deals this year for sustainable aviation fuel. We are willing. The issue that needs to be tackled is the availability of sustainable aviation fuels. The technology exists. The US has a policy to incentivise the creation of a SAF industry in the US. The agreements which we have signed are linked to west coast US flying, which will enable us to put sustainable aviation fuel into our flights.

The EU, and I would argue particularly for Ireland, should urgently look to develop a SAF industry to create jobs, to support the economy, but importantly, to support a sustainable aviation industry. The airlines are willing and the SAF needs to be developed.

In conclusion, we believe the current policy is appropriate. It is more relevant than ever but it needs to be urgently and efficiently implemented.

I thank Ms Embleton. We would very much welcome if all witnesses were as concise. I now move to committee members and I call Senator Buttimer to speak first, please. He is online in the House.

Good morning, Cathaoirleach. I apologise as I must leave at 10 a.m. to attend the Seanad. First, I welcome our witnesses and I thank Ms Embleton for her presentation. The Cathaoirleach is correct in that her presentation was short, concise and therein lies the first question. Nowhere in Ms Embleton’s presentation this morning to us, or in her written presentation, has she discussed the issue beyond the soundbite of connectivity. She is 100% correct in that we are an island nation, that a connected country leads to better investment in jobs, and that the breadth of connectivity is important. Ms Embleton has not answered or addressed under the aviation policy any of her ideas or thoughts about, for example, Cork Airport or Shannon Airport. She mentioned "the airport" in her presentation to us so I ask, in the context of the future and national aviation policy, does Aer Lingus plan to increase its fleet or to keep it as small as it is now?

Ms Lynne Embleton

I will ask Mr. Moody, who develops our network and fleet for us, to comment in a moment. What is very important is that there is a market to serve direct flights from Cork or from Shannon. We completely believe that we and other airlines want to do that. The only------

Ms Lynne Embleton

-----point I was making by focusing on the hub was that we need an effective hub but I believe Ireland can have hub and point-to-point connectivity. It is the point-to-point connectivity we can all look forward to in Shannon and in Cork. We see routes developing as the local market requires.

Does Senator Buttimer wish to make a point of clarification?

Yes, I do. What is the comparable difference between Aer Lingus’s short-haul fleet today in December 2022 versus December 2019?

Ms Lynne Embleton

Our short-haul fleet reduced as a consequence of Covid-19-----

Ms Lynne Embleton

-----and we are looking to build up that. Perhaps Mr. Moody would like to go through the detail there, please.

Mr. Reid Moody

The fleet back in 2019 was 40 short-haul aircraft, 37 of which were owned,. We also rented in what we call aircraft, crew, maintenance and insurance, ACMI, aircraft and these became effectively part of our fleet as well. Throughout Covid-19, we basically downsized by 25%. That is, 40 aircraft went down to 30. We have added two additional aircraft this year. We were able to get those tactically and they were not in the plan.

Where are those aircraft flying to and where are they based?

Mr. Reid Moody

These were aircraft that were due to go to a Russian airline and were still with Airbus in Toulouse. We were able to go in and get those aircraft tactically. We went from 40 down to 30 and back up to 32.

Did Aer Lingus purchase these aircraft?

Mr. Reid Moody

We did, yes.

What is the comparison then in Aer Lingus’s long-haul fleet between the years 2022 and 2019?

Mr. Reid Moody

The long-haul fleet has increased quite significantly versus 2019. We started taking in our narrow body long-range aircraft and we have taken in eight of those. We have downsized by one Airbus A330.

Will Mr. Reid give the committee the numbers involved in 2019 versus today, please?

Mr. Reid Moody

In 2019 we had about 13 wide-bodied aircraft and that has gone up to 18 now, in totality.

Would it be fair to say, to whichever of our guests would like to take this question, that Aer Lingus is not as committed to the short-haul flights as it had been previously?

Mr. Reid Moody

No, I will just explain what has happened throughout the Covid-19 period.

Forget about Covid-19 as it is over now. If one listened to the International Air Transport Association, IATA, and to the presentations from the past week, Covid-19 is over, we are in recovery mode. We are 12 months beyond it now.

We will allow the Senator to-----

Other airlines are booming ahead.

Mr. Reid Moody

On the short-haul fleet, we have taken on two addition aeroplanes this year, have plans to take a further two next year, and we have committed plans for next year and for 2024 to take another two. The key thing here, however, is that it has to be profitable growth. We cannot commit to aircraft unless we know that growth is going to be profitable.

On risk, where we might have been able to take a little more risk previously and pre-Covid-19, where we had the strength of balance sheet, that kind of risk appetite is reduced. We have a very significant amount of debt to repay. We have committed to extra short-haul fleet, as I said, two this year, two next year and two in 2024. We will have to put together a business case then for any additional short-haul aircraft beyond that period. That business case will need to be based upon a profitable return on that investment. We will definitely try to do that, it is part of our long-term strategy, but it has to be a business case that makes economic sense. That is purely in our plan, we will be doing that, and it is something we are looking at right the way through the rest of the decade. But beyond-----

I appreciate and I thank Mr. Reid for that. I do not mean to be adversarial but I am very disappointed with the attitude of Aer Lingus as a group, to be honest.

In the context of Mr. Moody’s last comment about the business case, and again either of our guests can answer this question, but where does Aer Lingus see the future of the Heathrow slots for Cork and Shannon?

Mr. Reid Moody

Shannon today is flying three flights a day. That is exactly the same as it was in 2019 and it continues to be our plan into the long-term future, unless something significantly different changes. There is no change at all to the frequency on Heathrow in Shannon.

That is exactly the same position in Cork, where there are four flights a day. Pre-Covid-19, that was the number, it is what we are flying now, and it is what we intend to fly into the future, unless something significant changes. We, however, do not see that happening.

In the context of the whole short-haul connectivity, Ms Embleton’s statement said, “The growth in Ireland’s connectivity over the last decade has seen significant investment by airlines ... ”. By Aer Lingus’s own admission, it has reduced its short-haul fleet and it is making a business case to return business to the company. What is the company’s commitment in the national aviation policy to enhance the short-haul connectivity for Ireland. As we all know, we are an island nation on the western edge of Europe which requires aviation and, as Ms Embleton rightly said, aviation is a force for good.

I would also say that most people in Ireland do not travel transatlantic but use short-haul flights.

Mr. Reid Moody

As I have already said, our commitment for the next three years is an additional six aircraft, including this year. We will then see if there is an economic case to increase on that.

We would love to be able to do so. We intend to do that but it will depend on the economic conditions and demand at the time. If there is a case, we will definitely put that forward.

Is Aer Lingus, as part of the national aviation strategy, committed to not shrinking its fleet further but to enhancing and increasing to have more short-haul aircraft? The short-haul sector is important to us as an island nation, as is the transatlantic service. Can I take it from the comments by the delegation that Aer Lingus has committed here today, as part of the national aviation strategy, to increasing its number of aircraft and to not shrinking the fleet further?

Mr. Reid Moody

We can commit that this year we have added two additional aircraft, next year we will add another two, and in 2024 we will add another two. We also commit that we will work closely with our partners at Emerald on the regional side to further connectivity between Ireland and the UK, so that is a significant increase over 2019.

In the overarching context of our discussion nothing has happened with Emerald. I could list a plethora of routes where, despite rhetoric, no commitment has been given and there has been no action or further movement.

Mr. Reid Moody

In what regard?

In terms of Emerald. I know that Emerald does some of Aer Lingus's short-haul regional flights, but there is nothing happening with some of the regions.

Mr. Reid Moody

That is a point for the regions to take up with Emerald.

I am genuinely angry and disappointed with the attitude that Aer Lingus has shown towards us as an island nation. Two minutes ago Mr. Moody said Aer Lingus will work with Emerald but now he has said it is up to the regional airports to do that work. We have just heard spin and rhetoric this morning. I apologise for being cross but Ireland as an island nation is very dependent on connectivity. As Mr. Moody has admitted, Aer Lingus has cut the 2019 short-haul fleet. If short-haul is not committed to, then Ireland will face a serious aviation issue.

Mr. Reid Moody

I will go back one step and look at the whole capacity for next year. Although Aer Lingus has shrunk, we had to shrink as a result of Covid, but we plan to grow. Both Cork and Shannon airports will have more capacity this winter than they have ever had before. Cork Airport will be roughly flat with 2019 next summer.

Cork Airport will not be improved by what Mr. Moody has said about the future plans of Aer Lingus. A lot of routes are not being brought back or are dying a death.

Mr. Reid Moody

As I said earlier about Heathrow Airport, where there is a business case in the future and the demand is there, we will definitely look at that. We will never not look at Cork and Shannon airports in terms of further point-to-point if there is a business case for doing so. We will always look at any opportunity if the demand exists, and that 100% includes Cork and Shannon airports.

We work very closely with our partner, Emerald. Where we can work with Cork and Shannon airports to look at incentives and the ability to fly, whether that is Aer Lingus's main line or through the regional partner, we will 100% look at that, but we will need to have a decent certainty about demand to make a decent economic business case for it. I am definitely not saying we will never not look at Cork and Shannon airports. We definitely will.

Ms Lynne Embleton

The impact of Covid on aviation in Ireland was dramatic.

Ms Lynne Embleton

The impact will last for the years ahead as we build back the fleet that we inevitably had to reduce and we rebuild our financial health. We are an airline that wants to grow and serve more destinations. If the aviation policy and economic conditions are right and we can profitably grow the airline, then we absolutely will.

I thank the Aer Lingus representatives for being here and participating. I do not mean to be cranky in the final week of Christmas but aviation is very important to us as a committee. I thank the representatives most sincerely for being here.

Senator Buttimer is about to take up the position of Cathaoirleach of the Seanad, which is a very important position. This is probably his last appearance as a member of this committee and that is why he has given a robust performance today, as he always does. We wish him well in his new role next Friday. We will miss him on the committee but I have no doubt we will see him around the Houses.

Ms Lynne Embleton

We wish the Senator well.

I was not being robust but very supportive of my colleagues in Shannon and Cork airports. I thank the Chairman.

We promise to be as robust when the Senator is Cathaoirleach of the Seanad.

The committee is doing a body of work on the national aviation strategy. To date we have met Mr. Willie Walsh, a former chief executive of Aer Lingus and now the director general of the International Air Transport Association. We have met representatives of Ryanair. We have met the Minister for Transport, Deputy Ryan, and the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Naughton. The committee has also travelled to Schiphol Airport and Rotterdam The Hague Airport. In the new year we will meet representatives of the airports.

A review of the regional State airports programme is about to get under way. As the chief executive is probably aware, for the first time Shannon and Cork airports have qualified for inclusion in the programme, which provides additional funding to airports. However, the current programme only applies to airports that have fewer than 1 million passengers. I, and I think the committee members, would like to see the programme extended to include airports that have up to 3 million passengers, which the Government is entitled to do. Dublin Airport is extremely busy. It has around 31 million passengers, which is huge given Ireland's population of about 5.5 million. By comparison, Schiphol Airport has 71 million passengers and Holland has a population of 17 million. We have four airports on the western seaboard. Shannon Airport can take 4.5 million passengers, Cork Airport between 2.5 million and 3 million, and there is Ireland West Airport Knock and Kerry Airport.

I am a Limerick based Deputy so Shannon Airport is a huge issue for us. I welcome that Aer Lingus has brought back the Heathrow routes. I know the witnesses dealt with queries about Covid, but to clarify, when Covid came, did Aer Lingus reduce its number of long-haul aeroplanes?

Ms Lynne Embleton

We grounded aircraft, two of which we exited.

Did Aer Lingus sell any?

Ms Lynne Embleton

Yes, we did exit some long-haul aircraft.

Aer Lingus had 13 of these aircraft in 2013 and there are now 18.

Ms Lynne Embleton

We took delivery of narrow-bodied long-haul aeroplanes over the Covid period.

That is five aircraft.

Ms Lynne Embleton

We took eight and we have a further six coming. We did exit some of our older wide-bodied aircraft.

In terms of the aircraft, how many does Aer Lingus have at the moment? Is it 18?

Mr. Reid Moody

It is 18, yes.

How many did Aer Lingus have in 2019?

Mr. Reid Moody

It was 13.

Did Aer Lingus exit any of them from that point?

Mr. Reid Moody

Yes. We took eight in new, so that increased the number from 13 to 21. We have two complete exits and one is still grounded, which we hope to bring back into service.

Has the number of short-haul aircraft decreased from 40 to ten?

Mr. Reid Moody

No, from 40 to 30.

So the number has been reduced by ten. Aer Lingus will have an additional two aircraft coming on board this year, it expects another two next year and another two the following year, which brings the figure up to 38.

Mr. Reid Moody

No. It is 30, and adding two for this year makes 32, adding two for next year makes 34, and adding two for the following year makes 36.

It is 36?

Mr. Reid Moody

Yes. During the period some of the very old aircraft will reach the end of their useful economic life.

How many?

Mr. Reid Moody

Three, which means the number will be reduced to 33 aircraft.

With 33, that means Aer Lingus is down seven aircraft when compared with its 2019 figure. Why did Aer Lingus get rid of so many of its short-haul aircraft relative to long-haul aircraft?

Ms Lynne Embleton

The long-haul growth was coming anyway.

They were committed contracts and we took delivery of those aircraft.

That was the eight that were purchased.

Ms Lynne Embleton

There were six aircraft. We were unable to fly them when they first came and they are expensive assets. On short haul, there was a combination of a need to reduce given the significant losses over the Covid period. We had some old short-haul aircraft that were coming to end of life and it was very economical to ground them. As Mr. Moody pointed out, we had lease arrangements in place that we were able to bring to an end. The necessity to downsize during Covid was stark and the ability to downsize short haul was easier.

On the Heathrow flights from Shannon, would Aer Lingus bring back the red-eye early morning flight? I know we have raised this before and Mr. Moriarty dealt with it. What would be the circumstances where Aer Lingus would bring it back?

Mr. Reid Moody

We look at any route based purely on supply and demand. If there were a point in the future where the demand would be there, that would mean we would move an aircraft from elsewhere in the network. We would look at that, but as it stands, we have better use elsewhere of the aircraft fleet we have now. However, we would look at that in the future.

Regarding the two new aeroplanes that have come on stream this year and two more next year and those subsequently, would it be possible that one of those could be put on the red-eye early morning flight?

Mr. Reid Moody

All of the new aircraft we will receive over the next three years will go onto Heathrow. That has economic benefits in fuel and especially noise reduction because the new generation aircraft command a lower expense with regard to the Heathrow landing charges. Therefore all of our new fleet will go onto Heathrow.

That is only a net increase of three.

Mr. Reid Moody

Three overall, but there will be six of the new aircraft that are operating Heathrow specifically. However, the Chairman is right about the overall fleet.

What is the lifespan of the older aeroplanes?

Mr. Reid Moody

We tend to work on a useful economic lifespan of roughly 24 years.

Will they start kicking in in 2023 or when? I am trying to figure out if Aer Lingus will have an increase in the gross number of aeroplanes.

Mr. Reid Moody

The net effect is 33. The gross is 36 and the net 33.

All the additional short-haul aeroplanes will go onto the Heathrow routes. Is that correct?

Mr. Reid Moody

They will be replacing older aircraft that are currently serving Heathrow.

From Ireland.

Mr. Reid Moody

From Ireland.

Is the red-eye early morning flight out of Shannon something Ms Embleton will actively look at?

Ms Lynne Embleton

As Mr. Moody said, we will look at all of the possible uses of our aircraft and prioritise according to where we see the demand. What I would like to be able to do is grow our short-haul fleet. That requires us to rebuild out of Covid. It requires an aviation policy that supports that and for the demand to be there as well. It is our ambition to grow. I cannot make any commitments now about where aeroplanes are going to be going.

It is something that would be considered, however.

Ms Lynne Embleton

We would absolutely consider it.

On aviation policy, Mr. Michael O'Leary from Ryanair told the committee that the short-haul flights are the only ones paying the emissions trading system, ETS. Aer Lingus falls into both categories because it has long-haul routes that are not paying it and short-haul flights that are. The Irish Government collects €140 million every year that is not going into aviation at this time. If there were three things Aer Lingus would like to see in national aviation policy, what would they be, in simple terms?

Ms Lynne Embleton

In simple terms, the top three things in Ireland's interest would be the development of the hub, development of a sustainable industry-----

When Ms Embleton says development hub, she is talking about Dublin.

Ms Lynne Embleton

I am talking about Dublin, but let me be clear again. There is point-to-point demand out of the airports on the west coast. We should absolutely look to those as an aviation industry and as a country to grow those.

Does Ms Embleton see that Ireland could have a second hub out of Shannon?

Ms Lynne Embleton

I do not see a second hub. In Ireland's best interest is a competitive large attractive hub in Dublin to enable the breadth of connectivity I believe Ireland needs. You have to ensure the Dublin hub is effective and able to support that breadth of destination. In parallel, I see point-to-point demand out of the other airports. We should be encouraging that, and where the opportunity is there, I would expect routes and aircraft to follow.

I would assume that would come down to incentives from the airports. That is why we feel the regional development programme would afford the capacity of the airports to encourage airlines to come in. Does that make a difference?

Ms Lynne Embleton

Absolutely. The balance of revenue and market demand and the cost base of flying come together. If there is a profitable opportunity, airlines will seek to fill that.

The top three are the hub-----

Ms Lynne Embleton

The hub needs to be developed. The sustainability issue needs to be comprehensively tackled. There are components within that but the development of sustainable aviation fuel in Europe is critical to that. I also see it as a real opportunity. There is an industry there that needs to be developed. Industries come with jobs. We need to look carefully at whether we can get those jobs in that industry here in Ireland.

Has Ms Embleton had any opportunity to discuss this with Departments or Ministers?

Ms Lynne Embleton

We have had some early conversations on that. Would Mr. Moriarty like to come in?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

We participate in the national civil aviation development forum, as the Chair will be aware. We have had those conversations in those forums and have also had them directly with the Department of Transport. If I can clarify something on the ETS, it is operable on intra-EU flights.

It is interesting because many of Aer Lingus's flights will be exempt.

Mr. Donal Moriarty

There is a new global system called carbon offsetting and reduction scheme for international aviation, CORSIA, which has been in place since 1 January 2021. Our long-haul flights are captured by CORSIA, so it is not correct to say that-----

Mr. O'Leary would have led us to believe otherwise. He led us to believe that all long-haul flights are exempt.

Mr. Donal Moriarty

They are exempt from the ETS currently. The EU is also looking at that exemption, which currently lasts for a couple more years but may end, while it reviews the effectiveness of the CORSIA system that is already in place. That is applicable from 1 January 2021, so it is not correct to say that.

How costly is that?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

It builds over time, with 2019 being the base year. I do not have the figures for how costly it is but it will build over time.

What is the Aer Lingus view on the ETS?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

Our view is that there should be a global system with respect-----

Should the load be spread?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

Absolutely.

Aer Lingus would be comfortable with that.

Mr. Donal Moriarty

That is part of our commitment and our group's commitment to addressing sustainability issues. An emissions trading scheme of the type that is in place already, that is, ETS or CORSIA, needs to be a global system applicable to all flights.

What is the key component for Aer Lingus to have all these aeroplanes over the years and to grow the number of aeroplanes it is buying and the additional flights in and out of Ireland? Ms Embleton spoke about the hub in Dublin. What would encourage Aer Lingus or what would it need to see in practical terms?

Ms Lynne Embleton

The sustainability of this industry is key. We have to have a policy that accelerates the sustainability of aviation.

In Ireland.

Ms Lynne Embleton

In Ireland. An important aspect of the emissions trading scheme is that there is a level playing field for all the airlines involved. The ETS works very well for short haul. We need a level playing field for long haul. Otherwise the carbon does not go. It is just other countries or hub airports that benefit. That is an important part of developing emissions trading on a global level. Then it comes down to infrastructure. While we would very much like to see growth in the other airports, the infrastructure at the hub is different infrastructure. It is infrastructure that allows fast and seamless connections because other hub airports around Europe will take those customers and passengers in their hubs if Dublin is not able.

What is that?

Ms Lynne Embleton

From a passenger experience perspective, one needs to be able to land onto an available and convenient stand. One then needs to be able to disembark quickly, to pass through-----

What is not available at Dublin Airport at the moment?

Ms Lynne Embleton

Stands and infrastructure. We have bottlenecks in passenger processing. We need to be able to offer customers a quick, seamless connection over Dublin Airport because they can get that elsewhere. That sort of infrastructure development is different from the infrastructure needed for simple point-to-point and short-haul flying. We need the infrastructure and the cost base to enable airlines to grow, to offer attractive fares and, therefore, to attract customers over that hub. If we have the infrastructure, the cost base and the sustainability issue key and accelerated, we have the makings of a successful future for the aviation industry.

I welcome the group from Aer Lingus. I appreciate their being with us. They are probably in a different position from some of their predecessors. They are here representing a private company. We are not its board and, therefore, I see our role as working with them to try to figure out how, collectively, we can do more for Ireland. My understanding, at least, of where we are trying to get to with an update of our national aviation policy is to try to facilitate them, not to demand of them or to require them to do anything. It is to figure out what we, as legislators, can do better. They have identified what needs to be done from a national perspective in respect of Dublin. We have had the DAA in and have heard from others about the difficulties at Dublin Airport, and we welcome the witnesses' views on that. However, I also come from the west, and while I have always recognised the necessity for a national airport at Dublin and its continued growth and development, we do, from a balanced regional development perspective, place a lot of importance on sustainable development outside of our capital city. That is where the point-to-point issue is. Shannon Airport, which I know best, has 1.7 million passengers going through it. To grow that to 3 million would have a phenomenally positive impact on an entire region.

When we talk about regional development it is also about taking some of the stress out of the east coast. We have a housing crisis here, which the witnesses will be familiar with, and congestion pressures in this city, so small and meaningful investment, particularly on connectivity, has huge impacts in respect of population shifts and so on. We come at this from that perspective and in the context of making Ireland a more sustainable country rather than heaping development on Dublin. In that context, I welcome Mr. Moody's point that the slots at Shannon are as safe as possible. That is welcome. We have seen difficulties with that before. He talked about more capacity at Shannon. Perhaps he could elaborate on that. He also mentioned the business case being there and the demand being there. I want to kick that on its head. How can we help Aer Lingus with the demand side? Financial incentives work well. One area that is important for Shannon is a connection to either Schiphol, and I know there are issues there, or Frankfurt. Mr. Moody said that if there is a business case Aer Lingus will do it. Any airline would if the business case added up, but what can we do from an interventionist perspective that might help that?

I would also like the witnesses to consider the crew base at Shannon. There was an issue when Aer Lingus moved the crew base. I am sure there were financial reasons for doing that. It was painful for many of the staff. Hard decisions had to be taken and were taken and communities were significantly affected. What would it take for Aer Lingus to look at that again? That will play into whether there will be a red-eye flight out of Shannon. If Aer Lingus has no crew base there, there will not be a red-eye flight. Could the witnesses talk to us from their perspective about that? What would we need to do to get that online?

I will leave the witnesses with just those two questions and then I will come back with a couple more.

Ms Lynne Embleton

I will make a comment and then pass to Mr. Moriarty. As I have said previously, a hub cannot be split but regional demand can be created for point-to-point flying. What we see in our passenger profile is a lot of inbound tourism into Ireland. If we are looking to develop the west, we need to make it attractive. We need to create the market and have passengers who want to come into Ireland and the west coast. I come back to the point that if we can create the market, we can provide the flying, notwithstanding the near-term fleet restrictions we have as a consequence of Covid. We need to work together to create that market. There is outbound travel from the local population, but we need to recognise the importance of inbound tourism. The more we can promote the more we will be able to fill aircraft coming in.

For Aer Lingus, then, it is the effort on the attractiveness of the area from a tourism perspective so it is about tourism attraction.

Ms Lynne Embleton

It is an important part of this. When looking to fill point-to-point services, it is the local population travelling out but, importantly, there is a much bigger world of people out there who could travel in. If we can create that demand, we can sustain point-to-point services. I think that-----

The likes of the Cliffs of Moher, the investment in tourism on Lough Derg, say, or the golfing facilities throughout Clare-----

Ms Lynne Embleton

It is an amazing part of Ireland, and if tourists come to the west coast, undoubtedly Shannon would be a more convenient airport. It is about creating that demand.

Is Aer Lingus committed to selling Shannon to the American market? We often hear information, some of it anecdotal, that there tends to be pressure to push everything into the hub and to let the tourists figure out how they will get there. Does Aer Lingus have a good marketing strategy that takes the best of what we have in the Wild Atlantic Way and so on?

Ms Lynne Embleton

We spoke to the committee during Covid, when I know it had concerns that we were not going back into Shannon. We said that if the conditions are right and we can be confident about our cash flow and our cost base, we will absolutely be back, and we are back.

Yes, and I thank Aer Lingus for that.

Ms Lynne Embleton

The long-haul services between Shannon and JFK and Boston are important to us and are doing well now. Where there is point-to-point demand such that we feel we can fill an aircraft, we are absolutely interested and committed to doing that.

Does Ms Embleton think there is anything more we can do in the off-peak or shoulder period and further into the winter period? I acknowledge that airlines have to reduce their transatlantic business during that period because the demand is not there. Is there anything we could do in terms of our tourism offering during that period that would make that attractive?

Ms Lynne Embleton

We have that problem across all our airports in Ireland. Aviation is a very seasonal business, but our costs, typically, are not seasonal. That presents a challenge for us as we look to develop. We need routes that can justify aircraft year round. Seasonality is undoubtedly an issue not just for Shannon but for growth across Ireland. If we can find ways of increasing traffic in the shoulder periods, it makes the business case for growth easier. If we make money in two months of the year and then lose it in ten months, there is no business case for growth.

What about the crew base?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

I will deal with the crew base first. The Senator will recall that on a couple of occasions I have outlined the rationale for the removal of the crew base. That decision was a difficult one but was critical in terms of our ability to commit to and to resume our transatlantic services. From an economic perspective, that was critical. We cannot and will not review that decision because that would in effect undermine the commercial viability of the services we have reintroduced and would militate against the growth we plan.

From a business perspective, is the fact that Aer Lingus does not have a crew base impacting the potential for more point-to-point business?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

No, and to the Senator's point about the red-eye flight and consideration of that in the future, the crew base location there does not impact that at all. If it is the right thing to do from a commercial perspective and the right demand is there for a red-eye flight in the morning, that will be crewed, so that is not an issue. That-----

Will that be crewed out of Shannon?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

No. It will be crewed from elsewhere, but if we make the decision, it will operate.

I thank the witnesses for their openness. I know that some issues are commercially sensitive and that they will not show me comparators for obvious reasons. However, we regularly hear from staff information, some of it anecdotal, that the cost of putting up staff who are dislocated from a base is significant versus having them located-----

Mr. Donal Moriarty

We look at it from a full-cost perspective and we have done that analysis. We did it during Covid. The decision was absolutely critical to resumption of the service and it remains critical to the continuation of growth, so it is not something we will return to or-----

I am only putting forward the caveat. Aer Lingus made a decision in 2007 to drop the Heathrow slots, and it was a commercial decision, notwithstanding others who believed otherwise.

When Aer Lingus looked at it again, it was clear that things had changed and coming back was the right thing to do. Does Mr. Moriarty envisage the same thing happening with the crew base?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

No, we do not. The 2007-08 decision was before all of our time-----

We were there-----

Mr. Donal Moriarty

We are very satisfied-----

Some of us are still suffering-----

Mr. Donal Moriarty

I appreciate that but we are very satisfied that the crew base closure decision was the right one and that remains the case. It is not something we could revisit.

Aer Lingus could make a commercial decision to bring back the red-eye flight but is Mr. Moriarty saying that not having a crew base in Shannon will not be determining factor in terms of whether Aer Lingus brings it back?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

Not at all.

It will not be a negative in terms of bringing it back. Is that correct?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

It will not have an impact if it is the right thing to do. To go back to the earlier question about working collaboratively to identify opportunities for regional development, I welcome the inclusion of Shannon and Cork airports in the State airports programme. To give an example of the opportunity in that regard, in the 2021 budget, €90 million was set aside to support the recovery of aviation and the return of operations and services. That was deployed to very good effect, particularly by Shannon Airport, at that time. The availability of support to airports to enable them to reduce airport charges and provide route incentives as well as to assist airlines in marketing both existing and future routes is critical. From a regional development perspective, we welcome the inclusion of the regional airports in that programme. Ms Embleton spoke earlier about attracting tourists to the mid-west and to Ireland generally and the work done by Tourism Ireland and Fáilte Ireland in that regard is critical. They do a very good job and Aer Lingus, as an airline, co-ordinates and works with them very well. An increase in the funding that is provided to those organisations on an ongoing basis is essential to market Ireland, the Cliffs of Moher, the Wild Atlantic Way and every other magnificent attraction here. That is absolutely-----

That is good. I just want to ask two final questions before I run out of time. The first relates to connectivity from Shannon to either Schipol or Frankfurt. If there is a continuation of that route incentive funding or intervention by the State, is that something Aer Lingus would consider? Would it be possible to make a business case for such connectivity, with the appropriate support from the State?

My final question relates to sustainability. Mr. Moriarty said that the airline has had early discussions with the Department on sustainable fuel and I am sure he is familiar with the ESB's plans to develop a hydrogen facility in Moneypoint. Hydrogen is a significant core fuel in the context of the development of sustainable aviation fuel. A lot of work is being done in Trinity College, the University of Limerick, UL, and in the Technological University of the Shannon, TUS, in Limerick. There is a focused community working on this at both academic and airport level. Has Aer Lingus had any involvement in that or would it consider getting involved?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

Yes, absolutely. Through the National Civil Aviation Development Forum, NCADF, we are linked in to all of the developments in the sustainability arena. In fact, we are contributing to it ourselves. We commissioned a feedstock study by a company called Nova Pangaea which is under way. The company is engaging with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and with key forestry providers in Ireland to examine the availability of feedstock on the island of Ireland to support an Irish-based sustainable aviation fuel, SAF, production facility. We are participating in many reviews and research projects relating to SAF and are actively contributing by commissioning a study in that regard. We are keen and willing to be involved in those projects.

On the Schipol question-----

Schipol, Frankfurt or Paris-----

Mr. Donal Moriarty

I will ask Mr. Moody to comment too but Schipol itself is quite slot constrained.

Mr. Reid Moody

We could consider Amsterdam, Paris or Frankfurt. If there is a significant incentive and the economics look sensible, we would definitely look at that. However, I would point out that both Shannon and Cork airports are currently connected to one of the biggest hubs on the planet at Heathrow and that must be taken into consideration.

We are very thankful for that but-----

Mr. Reid Moody

Those flights are not just point to point; they are also connecting. There are other market demands if we bring other destinations into it-----

Aer Lingus is flying to Amsterdam out of Cork Airport-----

Mr. Reid Moody

Yes, we are but for us that is not as much of a connector. We have relationships with many airlines at Heathrow to connect on to the rest of the world but we do not have that same kind of connecting ability at other European hubs. There is a market dynamic there that we would have to consider seriously.

What is the loading level on the Heathrow route and the JFK route out of Shannon Airport? How are they looking? How have they been performing over the past year?

Mr. Reid Moody

I am pleased to say that the transatlantic route has been a fantastic performer this summer but I will not go into specific load factors because that is commercially sensitive. I am glad that we will fly more transatlantic flights from Shannon this winter and next summer than we did in 2019. Previously we had four flights per week to JFK but we will be up to full daily flights. Even this winter, apart from a couple of weeks in the depths of February when we have to take the aircraft in for maintenance, we will fly much more of a full-year service on both Boston and JFK versus anything we have done historically.

When will that be coming? When does Mr. Moody expect that?

Mr. Reid Moody

That is this year. That is operating now.

What is the situation with the Heathrow route?

Mr. Reid Moody

The Heathrow route is somewhat difficult. There are lots of tactical issues involved there. Heathrow's reputation has been badly damaged over the past six to eight months so there is a bit of a rebuild required but that will come back. The underlying demand is there but we have to wait for some of the business travel element to have the confidence to come back and not be concerned about disruption and delays.

Was that happening throughout the Aer Lingus network?

Mr. Reid Moody

Cork and Shannon airports were no different from Belfast or Dublin.

Can we take it that all of the routes currently operating at Shannon Airport are secure?

Mr. Reid Moody

I would say so, as I said at the start, in the short and medium term and hopefully well into the long term. To be honest, there is no reason there could not be further transatlantic routes. That is something we will look at-----

To other destinations?

Mr. Reid Moody

Yes, to other destinations or even towards the middle of the decade and beyond, more frequencies. We would look at that from an economic perspective. We have other aircraft coming from 2025 and beyond but if there is a case there, and it has proved to be a very good route, we will look at others.

In fairness, Aer Lingus said during Covid that it would come back to Shannon Airport and it has done so. It has worked out very well. The red-eye flight is an issue that comes up, particularly with business people in the region, and I welcome the fact that Aer Lingus has that on its radar in terms of seeing if it can be brought back.

Mr. Donal Moriarty

In terms of national aviation policy and connectivity to other hubs, we would be better served by prioritising the development of our own hub rather than trying to bolster other hubs. There is good connectivity to our hub in Dublin Airport from across the country but, of course, that could be improved, in terms of road and rail. From an overarching policy perspective, the priority should be to-----

If a flight is coming into Dublin or Schipol airports at the moment, which has better worldwide connectivity? Aer Lingus wants to build Dublin as a hub. Shannon and Cork airports can be connecting in to hubs but they are not defined international hubs. In terms of international hubs, how does Dublin rate in comparison to Frankfurt, Schipol or Charles de Gaulle airports?

Ms Lynne Embleton

Let me elaborate on this. As we have said, if there is a point-to-point demand and a point-to-point flight, that is the best thing for customers. Where there is no point-to-point flight and customers have to connect, they can do so from Ireland through Amsterdam and Frankfurt but what that does is provide passengers to support the growth of German and Dutch hubs.

I would argue that it is in our interests to support the growth of the Dublin hub. Therefore, the accessibility of Dublin Airport and ensuring that customers across Ireland, where there is no direct flight, can quickly and easily get to the airport should be part of an overall infrastructure and national aviation policy. The Dublin hub has been growing and Aer Lingus has been key to growing it. That is seen in the breadth of north Atlantic destinations that are served now that were not served several years ago. That said, we are still quite a long way behind in overall breadth compared with Heathrow, which is a leader, Frankfurt, Paris and Amsterdam, as the Chair mentioned. They have more connectivity to Asia in particular. If we keep pointing customers towards their hubs, they will keep developing but if we can point customers towards our hub, then it will develop, and Ireland will benefit because we will have a broader breadth of destinations available. It is the exponential effect of passengers-----

Ms Embleton believes a rising tide will lift all boats.

Ms Lynne Embleton

Exactly.

Mr. Donal Moriarty

I will go back to our opening comments about infrastructure. Key to the development of Dublin Airport as a hub is provision of that infrastructure. We have the northern runway, which is welcome, but having the supporting stand and pier infrastructure to make the connecting product at Dublin Airport as good as it can be is critical. You cannot really have one without the other so that infrastructure needs to catch up quickly with the delivery of capacity that the new runway has provided.

I thank all the witnesses for coming in. Before we talk about aviation strategy, can we deal with Dublin Airport? How many of Aer Lingus's flights have been cancelled? How many of those issues were specific to Dublin Airport? There has been a minor bun fight in the sense of the DAA stating that the de-icers are the responsibility of the airlines and the airlines not necessarily agreeing. What is the set-up? Have the preparations been done for Christmas, particularly considering this cold snap?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

I am happy to take that one. The takeaway comment on the weather readiness from Friday was that things could have been better. There was a perception that was not dissimilar to our comment on infrastructure. Runways were clear but the supporting infrastructure was not as clear as we would have liked it to be. Particular conditions on Thursday and into Friday were difficult. There was a lot of precipitation which then froze, and that meant de-icing had to happen much closer to departure as opposed to being done several hours in advance. That was unique to the situation. De-icing is the responsibility of the airlines and the ground handling agents at the airport; that is a given-----

Mr. O'Neill is saying there is an infrastructural problem.

Mr. Peter O'Neill

There was an infrastructural problem in addition to that. We had conditions on the ramp area where ground crews needed to get to the aircraft, which was particularly difficult. We had black ice around the airport environment. We met the DAA and it put its hands up at an operational level to say that it knew where it needed to do better. We had good discussions on that, and we saw improvements over the weekend. For example, Saturday was much better-----

I ask Mr. O'Neill to elaborate on the black ice. The DAA has come out and said the issue with the runway and the planes was the responsibility of the airlines. I ask Mr. O'Neill to deal with the issue of black ice.

Mr. Peter O'Neill

I mention the apron areas around the runway. I go back to the weather conditions there, where there was a lot of precipitation, and it froze over. Freezing conditions stayed through the day as well so they were quite unique conditions on the day into Friday. Temperatures did not lift at all so there was no natural de-icing taking place, which was unusual. That compounded the situation. We would de-ice an aircraft and be ready to go but when the pushback truck would go to move that aircraft there might be ice in the area. Again, safety comes first, and we will put a hold on that aircraft moving until the conditions are right to push back. What we saw through the day was a cumulative effect where the de-icing would take place, then the conditions did not allow the aircraft to go, and we saw later in the day that air traffic control put a holding delay on flights into Dublin because the airport ran out of concrete to park aircraft and aircraft had to wait-----

At that stage Aer Lingus was backing everything up across Europe.

Mr. Peter O'Neill

Exactly.

Ms Lynne Embleton

I want to reiterate that having a cleared runway is only one part of a solution. If you look at an aircraft and the activity around it, in many cases you have passengers walking to the aircraft and going up the steps. You cannot have ice and keep the customers safe in that environment. There is also a lot of ramp activity around that aircraft, so we need the runway to be clear, but we need the ramp area to be clear as well. In a situation like this the airlines have responsibility and de-icing the aircraft is a key part of our responsibility. The airport has a responsibility too and the two things need to come together to weather these events.

Aer Lingus is saying the DAA was not prepared at an operational level, and it has put its hands up, which is different from what is out in the public domain. Beyond that, it was mentioned that logistics have been fixed. What does that look like? Does that mean everything has been done or does some of this require long-term infrastructural change?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

Across the airport there are further developments taking place, including taxiways and stand infrastructure. Dublin Airport is probably unique in a sense. We have seen the public comments asking why de-icing takes so long but we do not get these weather events that often. In other airports, however, there is a de-icing area at the airport en route to the taxiway. That leads to a much more efficient de-icing process. In Dublin Airport, de-icing takes place on each stand. In that scenario you have to move that ground equipment from one aircraft and stand to a different aircraft. That adds more time into the sequence.

What has been fixed that has made it better?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

Between Friday and Saturday the readiness improved. The conditions were slightly better into Saturday and on Saturday we operated 96% of the Aer Lingus schedule whereas on Friday we operated 90%. We were happy, given the conditions there were, that we got the vast majority of flights away and got a clean start to the operation on Saturday.

In the long term, space for this would need to be built in.

Mr. Peter O'Neill

Exactly. It goes back to the point about the infrastructure. There has been the welcome development of a runway, but you need all the supporting infrastructure as well.

How are things today?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

Fine.

Is Aer Lingus back to normal?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

We are back to normal operation. We are seeing that this weather has spread into Europe, and we are chasing the weather a little bit.

Does Aer Lingus foresee any other difficulties in the Christmas period and it being busy? Michael O'Leary and others have been in here and said that they were not quite sure if preparation had been done by the DAA, but the DAA has said it has done its preparation and Ministers have also said that. Is Aer Lingus reasonably happy?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

All the various entities at the airport met yesterday to discuss Christmas readiness. That was a DAA-led presentation to the airport community. The DAA is indicating that it is ready for the Christmas period. There will be pressure points around that, particularly where there are other airports that may be under pressure. That includes the potential for strikes in the UK, which could have an impact on operations as well. We will keep that dialogue going. The longer term weather forecast is more favourable for the Christmas period, which is welcome. Having gone through the event of Thursday and into Friday, the degree of readiness will have increased, and the attention is focused on that within the DAA.

We are in a better place so.

Mr. Donal Moriarty

I want to add to what Mr. O'Neill said. The engagement from an operational perspective, post the difficulties on Friday, has been good. To the Deputy's point about statements being slightly different from that, there has been a little bit of a disconnect between the operational reality and some of the statements that have been issued. I will put it no stronger than that.

That is strong enough. There is a wider question on infrastructure and we have had a fair amount of comment on people’s claims that tunnels being built are not necessarily worthwhile and whatever. Where does Aer Lingus stand on all that? There is also the general question of necessary infrastructure and I assume Aer Lingus wants that addressed as quickly as possible.

Mr. Donal Moriarty

I can address the tunnel issue. There is a plan in the capital investment programme for a tunnel to be built between piers 2 and 3, under the taxiway and the crosswind runway, across to the west side of the airport. There are significant stands on the west of the airport. Dublin Airport is stand-constrained.

Stands are required everywhere - in the south, north and west of the airport. We do not object to the building of the tunnel but we are concerned about its prioritisation over the delivery of other infrastructure. It is our view that stand availability is more critical in the south and north of the airfield, rather than the west. Ultimately, the delivery of stand availability for passenger traffic in the west will be important to the airport but it must not be to the detriment of its delivery elsewhere. We see the tunnel and the west being important, but the south and north should come first in the order of priority.

Is Mr. Moriarty talking from the perspective of logistics and delivering for passengers?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

Yes. The timing is critical. We have been saying that the delivery of the stand infrastructure is critical to the development of Dublin Airport as a hub and that it is predominantly required on an urgent basis in the south of the airfield.

The ETS is a European scheme and we have had the whole argument about short haul versus long haul. What was the other scheme to which reference was made?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

That is the CORSIA scheme, which is a global scheme that came into effect at the start of 2021 and is getting up to speed.

Where does the money go under that scheme?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

Of the money that will be contributed by airlines to the CORSIA scheme, 100% will be invested in carbon offsetting projects on a global basis.

Does it go into a global fund?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

Yes. The global fund is managed by the International Civil Aviation Organisation, ICAO, which sponsors projects all over the world, and 100% of the funding goes into it. It is slightly different from the ETS in that the funding from the latter is distributed to member states within the EU and only 50% of it is required to be deployed in environmental projects.

Some sort of global scheme is needed and there is an element of needing ICAO involvement. The question is whether there is enough of a conversation happening at the European Commission level and globally. Do we have enough of an input into that at this point in time?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

The EU is very engaged on the subject and it is engaged with the ICAO. It is currently reviewing the effectiveness of the ICAO. The application of the ETS to intra-European flights applies for another two years. The Commission will review the potential applicability of the ETS beyond that to flights outside the EU but that start or finish within the EU. It is our view that this is not the correct approach, which would be to adopt the CORSIA global system, as Ms Embleton said, to establish a level playing field.

Is CORSIA a voluntary system or is it obligatory?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

It is an obligatory system.

The open skies agreement seems to be an obvious win in terms of fuel savings, reducing the volume of delays and all the rest of it. I understand the difficulties relating to it. Does Mr. Moriarty think there is enough input from the Government in this regard and that the conversation is happening where it needs to happen, which is at the level of the Commission and beyond?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

I think so. Aer Lingus, the International Air Transport Association, IATA, as the committee heard a few weeks ago, and all carriers would really emphasise the importance of a single European sky, SES, in terms of-----

Everyone buys into the idea but the question is how to deliver it.

Mr. Donal Moriarty

I think the correct input is there from the Department of Transport and the Government. As a country, we should seek to exert our influence as strongly as possible at a European level in order to break down some of the political barriers in other member states to implementation of the SES initiative. We should maximise the use of our influence there. All of the inputs are available to the Department-----

It is going in the right direction but it needs to be done as quickly as possible.

Ms Lynne Embleton

As we said in our opening statement, we believe the SES initiative has the opportunity to take some 10% of carbon emissions out of the European system. There are very few other means of achieving such a significant reduction.

It is lying in a straight line.

Ms Lynne Embleton

It will lower carbon emissions, it will be better for passengers and it will address all of the issues the Deputy mentioned. There is a technology solution to this but it needs political will to implement it. Any role Ireland can play in pushing it at the EU level can only be good for aviation, the economy and sustainability.

That is straightforward.

It is the most obvious win if it could be delivered. On sustainable aviation fuel, SAF, the witnesses talked about the study they are engaged in, which is looking at long-term technological advances. We are probably talking about post-2030 developments. What needs to happen beforehand in order to have an adequate SAF? In fairness, Michael O'Leary has set out what he would like to see. What does Aer Lingus think would work? Obviously, energy providers and so on will have to play a role in this.

Mr. Donal Moriarty

In fact, our plan is not for the long term. A sustainable aviation fuelling system-----

I understand that. I am talking about hydrogen or whatever.

Mr. Donal Moriarty

I appreciate that is a long-term process. Critical from our perspective is the ReFuelEU initiative, which, as the Deputy may be aware, is mandating certain usage of sustainable aviation fuel - 2% by 2025 and 5% by 2030. That is absolutely fine and we support it. What is missing at a European level is the corresponding incentivisation for the development of production. If we look at California, for example, there is significant incentivisation in place from a taxation perspective, particularly for the development of SAF and its production. The result is that it is being produced. This summer, we were able to sign two off-take agreements in California such that by 2026, more than 50% of the fuel we put on board our aircraft from California will be in the form of SAF.

The only way it is going to work is by way of tax incentives.

Mr. Donal Moriarty

It really needs the balance of the mandate and the incentivisation. That is the only thing that will develop the industry and get the players to invest. We talk about Ireland's influence. At a European level, that influence should be directed at getting that incentivisation in place. The same applies within Ireland. If we are to encourage the development of a SAF industry here, it requires incentivisation.

My last question relates to the regional strategy. There has been a lot of discussion on that issue today and it is not the first time we have discussed it. Willie Walsh and Michael O'Leary have put forward the view that Cork and Shannon airports, in particular, can do business but that such business cannot be by way of displacement from Dublin. Dublin is the hub. Point-to-point provision makes complete sense but, beyond that, connecting into a hub is fine but it cannot be at the expense of Dublin because it will not work and it does not make sense. Is it fair to say that is also Aer Lingus's position?

Ms Lynne Embleton

We believe there are two opportunities in Ireland for development of aviation. There is the point-to-point development, particularly in the western airports, and we would welcome the growth of those western airports. However, a hub cannot be split. With hubs, it is all about scale and that has an exponential effect. It would be damaging to Ireland to try to split the hub.

It is possible, however, to connect to another hub.

Ms Lynne Embleton

It is possible to connect to another hub but if we are looking to develop Ireland's connectivity, we should be looking to bring feed into Dublin because that exponentially allows more flights to be offered.

I thank the witnesses.

We have been in correspondence with the Dublin Airport Authority, DAA, on capacity issues. Michael O'Leary, when he was before the committee, indicated he has major concerns about the authority's capacity to deal with the Christmas peak period, which starts tomorrow, 15 December, and continues until 10 January. Mr. O'Leary's concerns relate to security checking and whether the numbers of staff the DAA has on board are sufficient. When representatives of the DAA attended the committee earlier in the year, they said they would have 702 staff in place by the end of June and up to 800 beyond that. We now find there are approximately 600 staff in place. Do the witnesses have concerns about the capacity of Dublin Airport and the DAA to deal with the numbers of outbound passengers? Are they satisfied the airport has the capacity to deal with difficult weather, including frosty conditions, if it arises again over the Christmas period?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

I will deal first with the question about weather conditions.

They got a shock with what happened on Thursday and Friday. As I said earlier, the conditions were particularly difficult.

They were pretty quick to say that it was entirely the responsibility of the airlines and the ground handling crews and that it was not their fault. They seemed to be saying "not on our watch".

Mr. Peter O'Neill

The safe de-icing of aircraft is the responsibility of the airlines. The aircraft cannot dispatch unless the de-icing has been done. That is a given. The particular issues then were around the clearance of the apron areas. I have a DAA document which states "the majority of apron deposits were cleared by the afternoon". That is in direct contrast to the public statements that the DAA may have put out. It is fair to say the runways-----

We will ask the DAA to publicly correct the record on that.

To what document is the witness referring? Is that an internal document?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

It is a document that the DAA presented to the airline community.

I ask Mr. O'Neill to read it again.

It would be useful if the witness could provide the committee with a copy of this document.

Mr. Peter O'Neill

I am not sure if I can do that.

No, but the witness can put it on the public record for us.

Mr. Peter O'Neill

It says that "the majority of apron deposits were cleared by the afternoon". I think that is quite telling.

Ms Lynne Embleton

When we have a schedule, if it is off in the morning that means it is off in the afternoon and that is what leads to cancellations. Having a functioning afternoon airport does not make for a half-good day. If the morning is bad, the rest of the day is bad.

They have admitted that the airport was not able to function because of their lack of due diligence on the ice in various areas within the airport.

Mr. Peter O'Neill

It needs to be a continuous effort. In fairness, conditions were difficult. The temperature did not lift through the day. Cancellations were inevitable but a little more could probably have been done to minimise the degree of cancellations.

We asked the DAA to come in on that. We have written to the DAA two or three times at this stage. We have concerns about the level of security staff. The figure is out of kilter with what they said they would have in place. We worry that they have lost staff because they are down about 155 on what they said they would have. They said they would be at 800 and they are at roughly 645. Will that enable them to have enough lanes open? Is Mr. O'Neill satisfied with the DAA's capacity to deal with the frost?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

Yes, their attention to it now-----

Did they hold their hands up on this?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

We met with them on Monday. They acknowledged the points we made about our experience on the ground compared to the public statements.

Did the airline ask it to set the record straight publicly? That was certainly not the message put out by the DAA.

Mr. Donal Moriarty

Our focus has been on the operation and making sure that is correct.

I expect that the witness would say that. We have a different role.

The import of the comment is correct. The portrayal was that it was the airlines' fault on Sunday and Monday.

Over the weekend, it was very strong. We have written to the DAA because our role is to represent the public.

I want to go back to the point on security officer numbers. Does Aer Lingus have concerns about the capacity of the DAA to deal with the increased passenger numbers over the peak Christmas period?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

I would contextualise it like this: over the course of the summer, the DAA addressed the security issues and dealt with the peak summer period. The kinds of volumes we will see over the Christmas period are not any higher than those we saw in the peak summer period.

Does the figure of 400 non-frontline staff include everyone from the kitchen porter to the CEO doing various tasks? That is not a sustainable model.

Mr. Peter O'Neill

Our understanding is that they are prepared to deploy a task force again to deal with the Christmas period as well.

Is the airline satisfied with that?

When does that start?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

I am not sure of the exact date.

We are going to follow up with the DAA again. We are disappointed that it was not able to come before the committee today. I acknowledge it was short notice but we want results. Is Mr. O'Neill satisfied, at this moment in time, that the DAA has the capacity to deal with the issues? How big is the output going to be for the peak period because that is really where it will impact?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

I do not have those figures to hand.

Is it going to be a busy Christmas for airlines?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

It will be a busy Christmas on certain days.

Mr. Reid Moody

It will be back to the levels of 2019. There are a couple of issues arising that will dampen demand slightly. Heathrow Airport is going to be very difficult at Christmas. The UK Border Force and some of the ground handlers have announced strikes. There is also a train strike in the UK. These things are dulling demand in the London area, which is a key route. However, compared to the last two years, we are back to proper volumes, which means anywhere between 30,000 and 50,000 people per day going through. That is similar to peak summer levels and the communication from the DAA is that it has plans in place to deal with those levels. If we take that at face value, it means there should be enough staff to service the demand. That is what we have to go with at the moment.

I have serious concerns because I have looked at the numbers. The committee has looked at them in great depth. We held public hearings with the DAA during the summer. It is a numbers game. I do not wish to labour the point but do the witnesses have confidence that the DAA will be able to deal with the number of passengers expected over the Christmas period?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

It is very hard to express confidence about somebody else's numbers. It is for the DAA to answer that question. I really cannot-----

It is going to affect Aer Lingus passengers.

Mr. Peter O'Neill

It will. We have met and engaged with the DAA. We were told that they are in a position to handle the numbers using a traffic light system.

Is the DAA saying that it will bring in non-frontline staff?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

Yes.

That will be the contingency.

Mr. Peter O'Neill

That is part of the contingency.

Has the DAA lost staff? Has the DAA been asked why its numbers are not up at the 800 that it promised? Why is the number 145 less, at 645?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

We have not got into that level of detail.

When is Aer Lingus meeting with the DAA again?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

I am meeting them again tomorrow.

We might keep in contact. We will be following up with the DAA because this appears to be consistent with our correspondence and with what Ryanair said. It is a numbers game. We have to ask why, given that the DAA gave us an assurance in June that it would have security officer staff numbers up at 702, increasing that figure to 800 over the summer, we now find that it has 610 security staff and 35 in training. That is 645. Does Mr. O'Neill accept that those numbers appear to be low?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

Based on the numbers the Chairman is quoting, yes I would.

They are numbers we got from the DAA.

Ms Lynne Embleton

It is possible that the Christmas demand is somewhat dampened by strikes in the UK which is an important market for Aer Lingus and other airlines here in Ireland. We cannot speak on behalf of the airport authorities. I hope they are ready. We sought a response from them at the beginning of the year when there had been issues. I would like to highlight that we have more growth coming next summer. Perhaps not much more can be done now for Christmas but we can make sure the airline community and the airport, in particular, are ready for next summer. We have more growth coming. We expect to have more passengers coming. While we have time, we need to make sure that those conversations are happening and that customers have a good experience next year.

It is something we will follow up with the DAA. The number of security staff at the moment seems to be insufficient. I call Deputy Cathal Crowe.

I welcome the representatives of Aer Lingus. I have a number of questions which I will put briefly. If the witnesses are equally brief in answering them, we might get through an awful lot. Now that the fog of Covid has pretty much lifted, I would like to ask how much money Aer Lingus received from the Government during the pandemic.

Mr. Donal Moriarty

We participated in the temporary wage subsidy scheme, TWSS, and the employment wage subsidy scheme, EWSS. These two schemes provided support not just to Aer Lingus but to all businesses. I think we received approximately €60 million through a combination of the TWSS and the EWSS. I may have to come back to the Chairman to confirm this. This figure, which is to be confirmed, corresponds to an equivalent amount of money, depending on the scale of other people's organisations and businesses, which would have been provided across the-----

That was a period of mixed fortunes. We were very grateful for Aer Lingus bringing PPE and medical supplies into Ireland. It was a period of mixed fortunes because some of the staff were shed. At the same time, Aer Lingus developed a new base in Manchester.

How much did Aer Lingus invest in its new Manchester base around that time?

Mr. Reid Moody

The start-up costs for the Manchester base were relatively small. They were in the single-digit millions.

Aer Lingus is a commercial entity but it received a lot of Government support during that period. I know how things work. I know there are different funding columns and budgetary columns. Perhaps this is something for the Committee of Public Accounts. Would the witnesses say that Government money was used in some way to subvent or enable the expansion of Aer Lingus operations into the Manchester base?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

No, not at all. To be clear, the two schemes I referenced earlier were available to every organisation and business in the country. They were not unique to aviation or to Aer Lingus. They were general schemes that every business in the country participated in.

I will explain what I am getting at. I appreciate that the schemes were not unique to this sector. In the period in question, most companies mothballed, protected what they had and used the mechanisms of Government funding to protect their workforce. When things were ready to recover, they launched themselves back into normal operations. What happened in Aer Lingus-----

Mr. Donal Moriarty

That is exactly what Aer Lingus did.

I would argue it is quite different. Aer Lingus mothballed and cooled down certain operations but things got a lot hotter for the airline in Manchester in that same period.

Mr. Reid Moody

Out of any European legacy or low-cost airline, Aer Lingus has been the biggest accelerator of growth from the low point to where we stand today. I say that with regard to the fact that both of our main networks were relatively fully shut. Throughout the last few years, we operated at around 20% capacity during certain periods, and there were days when we were in the single digits. We are nearly back up to full capacity again. If one looks at the acceleration of growth of any airline throughout Europe, one will see that Aer Lingus has by far come back the strongest from the low point. We have put a huge effort into getting our capacity back up while balancing the operational impact. It has been a difficult 12 months to get the operation back up and running. I do not accept that we have dampened growth; if anything, we have worked extremely hard to get capacity back up as much as-----

There is something askew here. In mothership Aer Lingus, a lot of staff were laid off, redeployed or went on reduced hours. In the Irish bases, Aer Lingus was subvented hugely by the Government, with €60 million or thereabouts. Meanwhile, over the Irish Sea in Manchester in that same period, Aer Lingus recruited and developed a new base. There is something askew there. If Aer Lingus got €60 million from the Government and made a single-digit million investment in Manchester, there is something amiss. Has it occurred to the airline at any point that the net figure should be refunded to the Irish Government and the State? In my book, it might have come under a different accountancy column, but it was money from the Irish taxpayer to shore up and protect things in Ireland. In that same period, Aer Lingus set up a brand-new base in Manchester. There is something wrong in that. We can only really get to that now that we are coming out of Covid-19.

Mr. Donal Moriarty

On that basis, and by that logic, every business in the country should be asked to refund their TWSS and EWSS payments.

I would contend that what Aer Lingus did was rather unique. While they were offered redeployment to Dublin, I do not think anyone in the Shannon base was offered redeployment to Manchester in that period. Not that it would have been very viable, but none of that was offered.

Mr. Peter O'Neill

The initial staffing for the Manchester base was from Irish-based staff. All of the pilots were Irish-based pilots who relocated for a period of time to Manchester. The first port of call was our own resources to give the opportunity for employment there. It was only after that had been exhausted that we hired locally.

Mr. Donal Moriarty

I think we explained the rationale for having to close the Shannon cabin crew base on a number of occasions. I will not go over that again. We gave the opportunity to everyone in our Shannon cabin crew base to relocate to Dublin or Cork, or to take voluntary severance. All of the personal preferences of our Shannon cabin crew base employees were fulfilled in that process. No choice that was selected by an individual cabin crew employee was not fulfilled by us within any of those three options.

I would say their personal preference, with the greatest respect, was to-----

Ms Lynne Embleton

Let me be clear. Through the Covid period, we maintained the employment relationship with more of our people than many other airlines around Europe. The money we received through the wage support schemes was key and important to maintaining the employment of people. We have been able to recover from the Covid depths, as we said, at a rate ahead of other European carriers. The money received during the Covid period was essential for the employment of people. Those people stayed, largely, in the employment of Aer Lingus. Very few staff members, as a percentage of the staff we had pre-Covid, left the airline during the Covid period. We are rebuilding. There is no connection between the numbers the Deputy was setting out earlier.

I will have to end here on this topic because there is loads more I want to get to. Rebuilding is fine, but the fact is that the winding-down happened in Ireland, the winding-up happened in the UK and it was Irish taxpayers' money that was used to support the Aer Lingus wage bill. I would like to see this matter analysed better by the Committee of Public Accounts.

Has Aer Lingus looked at the realm of new aviation such as drones and electric vertical take-off and landing, eVTOL, aircraft? United Airlines, Virgin Atlantic, Iberojet, Japan Airlines and GOL have all gone into this realm. There is a huge opportunity for Aer Lingus, particularly in the mid-west where Google is investing in the Future Mobility Campus through Wing. Representatives of Sprite, which is also involved in the region, were in the Dáil last week. Some major global companies are coming in there. No airline has yet partnered there, so there is a huge opportunity. Is it a space Aer Lingus is looking at?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

It is not. As was discussed earlier, from a sustainability perspective we are focused on investing in sustainable aviation fuel as a group. IAG is a significant investor in the technology that will deliver sustainable aviation fuel. As I mentioned earlier, we have entered into agreements to take sustainable aviation fuel. Our focus in future investment is on new aircraft technology which is more noise and carbon efficient, and more efficient generally, and on putting the infrastructure in place to allow sustainable aviation fuel to be delivered to us and other airlines. That is our future investment focus.

Aer Lingus has hinted that in 2023, there will be enhancements to some of its services and offerings from Shannon Airport . When Mr. Michael O'Leary and Mr. Eddie Wilson of Ryanair were here a couple of weeks ago, they backed up what they said in the following days by announcing a number of new routes. Will the witnesses tell us what is in store for Shannon Airport for both short-haul and transatlantic flights for 2023? What can customers flying out of Shannon Airport look forward to next year?

Mr. Reid Moody

In the summer of 2023, there will be full daily services from Shannon Airport to John F. Kennedy International Airport and Boston Logan Airport. There will also be three daily Heathrow Airport services. That is what is confirmed at the moment. That will be 10% down on what we had in 2019, which is exactly the same capacity statistic as Dublin Airport on short haul. It will be no different from there. At the moment, we will not have any of the summer leisure routes that we had in 2019. We will continue to look at that. As it stands, there be will exactly the same frequency to Boston with more capacity because there are more seats on the new aircraft. There will be increased frequency to John F. Kennedy International Airport, up from four weekly in 2019 to daily. I mentioned the Heathrow Airport commitment earlier. Shannon Airport as a whole is doing well. It will be up about 21% next summer with the overall additional seats. We will continue to work with the team there. We have a good relationship with the Shannon Airport team and will continue to work closely with them.

Where is the summer leisure flight schedule at? Mr. Moody said it was still under consideration. Other airlines pretty much have all their plans for 2023 nailed down. When will we hear some certainty on that front from Aer Lingus?

Mr. Reid Moody

We will be finalising the last bits of the summer schedule in the new year.

Are there plans to expand IAG Cargo, particularly from the Shannon base? I would like to hear Aer Lingus's view on the flying truck mechanism. For those following this, that has allowed cargo to move down the motorway in a truck with a flight number. It is then taken off and treated from a customs point of view when it reaches Shannon Airport or its end point.

Mr. Reid Moody

Shannon Airport does not really have the ability to be a material cargo player. We use the narrow-body Airbus A321neoLR on there, which has a minimal cargo capacity versus a wide-body aircraft.

Compared with a traditional cargo network that requires the hull space of the wide bodies, Shannon does not have that capacity.

Is Aer Lingus committed to maintaining its cargo base there?

Mr. Reid Moody

There is no change to cargo for the foreseeable future. We would have to speak to IAG Cargo.

Why the hesitation?

Mr. Reid Moody

I am not 100% certain what the cargo situation is in Shannon, but as far as we have discussed, there is no change to any of our operations there.

Ryanair hosted an event in Trinity College two weeks ago where we were brought through its innovation hub. Ryanair has partnered with third level institutions and other sectors. Shell Oil was there as well. They showed us everything they are doing, from new winglets to sustainable aviation fuel, SAF, and the percentage they hope to get into that space. I want to hear a little bit more detail on Aer Lingus's plans in this regard and with whom it is partnering. There is an incredible project in the mid west where there will be huge wind turbines off the coast from Moneypoint. The energy harvested will be converted to hydrogen and brought onshore to a fuel farm in Shannon. How does this project fit into Aer Lingus's plans? Does the company hope to tap into or play a role in it? Does it hope to invest in it?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

Some of these points were covered earlier but I am happy to repeat them. During the course of the summer, Aer Lingus entered into two agreements in California for SAF offtake, that is, taking SAF fuel. From 2026 onwards, over 50% of our fuel requirements from California will be in the form of SAF. We are investing real money in SAF offtake agreements for our future flying. As a group, IAG is very much a leader in the space of sustainability and in investing in SAF production. IAG is partnering with multiple organisations to try to ensure delivery of SAF is available, especially in Europe. From a policy perspective at a European level, there is a disconnect between the mandate of the ReFuelEu aviation initiative and the incentivisation required for the production of SAF to be available within the European Union. We say to the committee and the Department of Transport that incentivisation of SAF production needs to be a key plank of national aviation development policy

Aer Lingus recently commissioned a study through a company called Nova Pangaea, which is a leader in the development of sustainable aviation fuel. The company is conducting a feedstock study on our behalf on the island of Ireland to identify the availability of feedstock, particularly forestry waste. We will publicise that report when it is issued as a contribution to the development of SAF on the island of Ireland.

We welcome the project in Moneypoint, where offshore wind will be used to produce hydrogen, which can be a key component in the development of sustainable aviation fuel. We are very much plugged in to the national civil aviation development programme and its involvement in various projects. Our commitment to sustainability and to sustainable aviation fuel in particular is very real and is being backed up by significant investment by Aer Lingus directly and by IAG at a group level.

Aer Lingus is doing a lot and that is welcome. The whole aviation sector has to drag itself forward, which is a global issue, and I welcome the role Aer Lingus is playing in this. The more new partnerships created, the better. The committee was in the Netherlands about a month ago and it was incredible to see how they are leagues ahead of us in terms of how they are leading in climate action by what they are doing, particularly in the realm of aviation, such as Rotterdam airport and the innovation hub. I commend Aer Lingus on what it is doing but I also call on it to do more and partner more in the coming years.

Are there new opportunities for Aer Lingus with the Ryder Cup coming to the mid west and the prospect of stages of the Tour de France taking place here? It is hoped there will be some pretty big events coming to Ireland. We want Aer Lingus to position itself to the fore, as others will, to receive people into Ireland and to fly them globally. The tourism product was mentioned and that is not all in the company's realm. A huge amount of that is with Tourism Ireland and Fáilte Ireland. Are there new opportunities for Aer Lingus? I am thinking in particular of connecting the west of Ireland into a European hub, which is very much a desire of the people in the west and of the Government. Can Aer Lingus play a role in that?

Mr. Reid Moody

We covered it earlier with the importance of the Dublin hub. We have to make sure that a national aviation policy looks at the country overall. Therefore, there is a potentially detrimental impact to Dublin as a hub if we look at other European hubs. Dublin aside, both Cork and Shannon are very well connected into Heathrow, which is one of the biggest hubs globally.

To address the initial question, it is something we are really interested in. Our communications team and our marketing team, both internally and in conjunction with the relevant tourism bodies across the country, are very keen to exploit all the opportunities the Ryder Cup or potential opening stages of the Tour de France would bring as they are huge events. Our commitment to global events can be seen, for example, in American college football. We try to maximise those opportunities and bring as many people here as possible. Exploiting tourism and making the country as attractive as possible brings more people in, which increases demand and makes us much more confident in the investment in increased growth.

When Mr. Michael O'Leary was before the committee he offered a commentary on each Irish airport, from Dublin all the way down to Waterford. In the interests of fairness, I want to afford Aer Lingus the same opportunity. Will the witnesses give us a good and bad analysis of the airports? They have told us of some of the shortcomings in Dublin, but can they spell it out for us? This is relevant because we are looking at airlines, new aviation, SAF and, indeed, airports. Will the witnesses give us an analysis of things that might need to change or happen to make things better fitting for Aer Lingus and for airlines overall?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

We have spoken very extensively about Dublin Airport. The Chairman himself mentioned the State airports programme and its importance in providing the funding to regional airports to allow their incentivisation in terms of airport charges, route incentives and marketing support. They are the critical avenues by which regional airports throughout the country can support additional traffic. Attracting tourists to Ireland is essential, and co-ordination and funding of our key tourism bodies, Tourism Ireland and Fáilte Ireland, are critical in that regard. I will not comment operationally on the airports. Perhaps Mr. O'Neill can.

Mr. Peter O'Neill

I have nothing to add.

I know the witnesses are all smiling but it is a very relevant point. The company is flying in and out and we fly in and out as passengers. It is the airlines that touch down, so it is no harm to give a commentary. There is a lot of latitude in this room. Are there specific shortcomings in the Irish airport system? We have heard about and had views on the Dublin Airport tunnel. The issue of de-icing came up earlier. Are there things that we as the funding body for airports need to know about?

Mr. Reid Moody

The common thread the committee has heard from all of us on Dublin is the fact that the second runway is not just the end point. The investment in Dublin over the medium term needs to be focused on all of the associated infrastructure, specifically stands and investing in the hub infrastructure that is required to make Dublin as efficient an airport as possible. If we look at Shannon, our relationship with the management team there is excellent. We work very closely with it . We are pleased to say we have been able not only to get back to the north Atlantic flying but to expand on that.

On the earlier point, in both Shannon and Cork airports, it comes down to the demand for and cost of increasing point-to-point services. We will always look at anything the regions can do to increase attractiveness of demand, such as encouraging inward tourism, combined with any incentives that decrease the costs for the airline to operate. That is my summary.

The point about wage subsidisation is probably not for this committee. I ask the Chair to see whether the Committee of Public Accounts might look at it in the future.

Aer Lingus used the EWSS for existing staff. Am I correct?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

That is correct.

What was the logic behind setting up the Manchester base? Was the EWSS used for Irish staff?

Mr. Reid Moody

The EWSS and TWSS were solely used for Irish staff. No one on a UK payroll had access to them. That is the first point. The strategic decision to start operating from Manchester was purely down to the fact that Manchester lost a huge amount of capacity through the insolvency of Thomas Cook and the retraction of Virgin. We saw the opportunity to take advantage of that, which at a macro level is only good for Aer Lingus as a group. The two things are completely separate.

Mr. Moody does not see the issue raised by Deputy Crowe. Was there an "either-or" in terms of the issue?

Mr. Reid Moody

No, I do not see that at all.

I am clarifying that point.

Mr. Reid Moody

As we mentioned earlier, the EWSS and TWSS were subsidies that were purely provided for people on the Irish payroll. If they were not on the Irish payroll, we would not have been able to claim those moneys. It was completely separate to any investment that went into setting up the Manchester base.

That is factually the case, but if you are doing your shopping on Friday and I subsidise the purchase of your petrol, that gives you more money to go into Lidl, Aldi or Tesco to buy your groceries. This is the point. A huge amount of taxpayers' money - almost €60 million - was funnelled into the company. It was the right thing to do. It was about protecting workers, allowing the company to remain intact and emerge in a healthy fashion from the Covid-19 pandemic. That €60 million unburdened Aer Lingus from other financial commitments. It allowed it the space to explore other opportunities and the other opportunity explored, delivered and pursued was the opening of a new base in Manchester.

Will Deputy Crowe expand on that and tie it back to the implications for Shannon Airport?

It was a devastating period. We were out meeting workers who were standing on the cold footpaths outside the airport wondering what lay in their futures. Offers were made to them and they took reductions in working hours, redeployment and all those options. It was devastating for some of them, who were there 20 and 30 years, to see a new base open up and new recruitment under way in Manchester. It is factually correct to say the money that was given to Aer Lingus was solely for its existing workforce, but the €60 million freed up financial options for the company to look at other things.

The question is whether it was appropriate, with the EWSS being provided during the Covid-19 pandemic, for Aer Lingus to expand to a new base. Will Mr. Moody address that?

Mr. Reid Moody

Looking at the wider economic logic, we did not put any cap on any other Irish business expanding its markets. We invested throughout the Covid-19 pandemic in new aircraft. The same logic could be applied to that. Should we not have invested in those aircraft? It is necessary to keep investing in the business, whether in new aircraft for the Heathrow Airport routes, as I spoke about earlier-----

Aer Lingus had not moved at that time and then-----

Ms Lynne Embleton

Can I come in on this please?

Yes, please clarify.

Ms Lynne Embleton

The wage support was welcome and was used to maintain the employment relationship with people who would otherwise have lost their jobs. Let us be clear. That is what that money was all about. Even with that money, we were losing €1 million per day throughout the Covid-19 pandemic and our balance sheet is still severely damaged by Covid-19.

When we had long-haul aeroplanes on the ground that we could not fly out of Ireland, flying them out of Manchester was a free capacity lift. We had the aeroplanes anyway and we could not use them anywhere else. As soon as flights from Ireland to the US became possible, we flew from Ireland to the US. At the same time, we flew from Manchester to the US. Those two things were completely unconnected and were market opportunities.

If Aer Lingus had not moved on the Manchester base at that time-----

Ms Lynne Embleton

It would not have made any difference to what happened in Ireland.

I accept that but the question is, if Aer Lingus had not moved at that time, would it not have been the right decision? What benefit has it brought in sustainability to the overall Aer Lingus group, which we will ultimately benefit from here as well?

Ms Lynne Embleton

This is about building a strong future Aer Lingus. During the Covid-19 pandemic we were not able to fly from Manchester either. We could once the US opened up. As those routes mature, they will bring more cash into the group, but importantly, it also improves the Aer Lingus footprint and brand in the US and UK-----

Did it only arise because of the Thomas Cook insolvency?

Ms Lynne Embleton

-----which are two important markets. There was a market opportunity. If we had not taken it then, someone else may well have done so. This provides more brand coverage for Aer Lingus in two key markets. That can only be good for Aer Lingus, which can only be good for Ireland.

Are Irish staff working in the Manchester base?

Ms Lynne Embleton

We have seconded Irish staff to the Manchester base and they have the flexibility to come and work in Ireland later.

I apologise that I missed the start of the meeting. I was caught in the Chamber. There is a chance I will go over old ground but I would appreciate if the witnesses would touch on their earlier comments and expand on them.

My first question relates to their sense of Dublin Airport's readiness for Christmas. What is Aer Lingus's expected traffic for Christmas 2022 relative to Christmas 2019? Is it up or down?

Mr. Reid Moody

It is slightly down. On the short-haul flights, the traffic is approximately 20% lower, but as we mentioned earlier, there is quite a lot of volatility, specifically in the London market. Strikes are planned for the Border Force and some of the ground handlers in Heathrow Airport and there is the ongoing train workers' strike. We may reduce capacity further, but we are down 20% approximately.

That is short haul. I suppose the numbers for long haul are smaller.

Mr. Reid Moody

On long-haul flights we are back at 100% of 2019.

The DAA says it is are working on the basis of comparable figures with 2019 in its engagement with Aer Lingus and other airlines. Aer Lingus is probably as familiar as we are with its plans for Christmas. Is Aer Lingus content and satisfied that things are in hand and will run smoothly?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

There was a meeting yesterday between the airport community and the DAA, where the DAA presented on its outlook for the Christmas period. Its representatives indicated they will be able to cope with it. Beyond that, we have to believe what they tell us. The volumes we expect to see over the period will be no different from what we saw in the peak of the summer and they got the resources right for that. We discussed earlier that they would have their task force available to deal with any spikes.

I thank Mr. O'Neill for that. From the opening statement, I note the piece on sustainability, some agreements Aer Lingus has on the west coast of the US and some planned operations in the North. Will the witnesses give a sense of that environment, the incentives, why the company has to go to the west coast of the United States to secure contracts like that and what it might take to improve capacity locally or at a European level?

Ms Lynne Embleton

The development of an entire sustainable aviation fuel industry is needed to decarbonise aviation. All of us in the airline community are committed to decarbonising aviation.

That requires SAF production for long-haul flights and other technology such as hydrogen may develop for short-haul flights. We need sustainable aviation fuel for long-haul flights. The technology is there. There are seven proven pathways for developing sustainable aviation fuel. It is the production that is needed. As with the development of all new industries and new projects, investment in production requires financial incentives. As an airline we can commit to off-take agreements, which is purchasing the output from those production plants. However, it needs incentives to build. In the US, there is a policy in place that incentivises the development of SAF production; in the EU there is not. A mandate is one thing, but production is the other. We are committed to taking SAF. We need its production. We need it in the EU. We should look hard at developing that as an industry in Ireland. There is potential feedstock and we are doing with Nova Pangaea to establish the sources of feedstock in Ireland and develop such an industry. I encourage the committee to look very hard at how the SAF industry can be developed here and to encourage its development in Europe more broadly.

On the type of engagement, what gives rise to that type of study and that partnership in other jurisdictions from a commercial innovation perspective? Is Aer Lingus driving it? Are other jurisdictions driving it? Is the Government driving it or the department in the North? That is the kind of thing I am interested in.

Mr. Donal Moriarty

In this instance we have commissioned a study by a company called Nova Pangaea with whom we are partnering at a group level. They are conducting a study on our behalf to look at the availability of feedstock on the island of Ireland and particularly from the forestry industry. We will publish that report and contribute it as additional information and intelligence as to the capability of developing a sustainable aviation fuel in Europe and in Ireland. That is just one aspect of the industry's investment in a future that sees SAF being available. Our group company, IAG has, for quite a number of years, been investing significantly in organisations and companies that are trying to develop this technology and make production a reality. The point we are emphasising from a national aviation policy perspective is that Ireland needs to use its influence at European level to have appropriate incentivisation put in place for that industry to get off the ground. The mandate is appropriate and we welcome it as an airline and a group, but it needs to have that balance of incentivisation to make it a reality and get production off the ground.

The Dublin Airport capital programme is important to Aer Lingus in respect of its hub operation. Is it satisfied with the capital programme and, more important, with the schedule of delivery? I guess from the perspective of the DAA, there is a particular funding model and assessment of risk. Is there a need for review of that or is Aer Lingus content with the pace and plan of development for that site?

Ms Lynne Embleton

I will comment and then ask Mr. Moriarty to come in. We welcome the development of the runway, but without the corresponding hub infrastructure that will be ineffective. The development of airport infrastructure, particularly pier served stands, the ability to flow passengers through the airport, and the passenger processing facilities all need to keep pace with growth to develop a competitive hub for us. We agree with the broad content of the development plan. We believe the pace needs to be accelerated. The sequencing needs to prioritise those key aspects of pier served stand development particularly in the south and north, rather than in the west of the airport, and ahead of some of the other developments in the plan.

Mr. Donal Moriarty

I will add that we have concerns about the pace of delivery. The latest version of the national aviation policy was published in 2015. It had within it an objective for the development Dublin Airport as a hub. The capital investment programme that has been put in place has the ambition to deliver on that hub infrastructure. However, the likely timing for delivery of the majority of that infrastructure is 2029, which is a full 15 years after the development of the policy imperative to do so. We are concerned about that, because the northern runway is very welcome but it needs the supporting infrastructure in the form of stands and piers to optimise and maximise its usage.

What does Mr. Moriarty think that is related to? If we were to talk to the DAA before this committee, would it point towards constraints it has to live within in terms of regulation or in terms of some of the planning system, as he pointed to. That is fair enough, but there is this issue of authority's funding and how it assesses risk.

Mr. Donal Moriarty

Primarily there are planning constraints and issues. Dublin Airport is arguably the most important strategic national infrastructure on the island, yet, from a planning process perspective, it has to go through a very onerous process, managed at first instance by Fingal County Council to get approval for any development. That is a severe constraint. In the two years of Covid not enough progress was made from the perspective of planning permission. Planning applications and permissions can be achieved without the requirement for capital investment. There was a missed opportunity in those two years to make positive progress on the planning side. We understand that the strategic planning application for Dublin Airport will be made in 2023. It should have been made earlier. That in itself will be a constraint. In terms of charges and funding, Dublin Airport is a regulated airport. The CAR conducts a process regarding the appropriateness of airport charges. They factor the capital investment programme into that, and it is a key lever and component, along with other key levers like passenger numbers, of their assessment of what the airport charges should be. That process has been done. I understand the commission will publish its pricing determination in a number of weeks. It will probably be pre-Christmas, once the legislative hurdle of the Bill is enacted. I believe that is imminent and the charging will be published imminently. That will take into account the requirement to deliver the capital investment programme.

It will give them a long enough horizon. Was there a concern that they did not have a long enough horizon?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

It is the urgency we are concerned with. The regulator is not going to tell the airport when to deliver the infrastructure. That is more within the control of the airport, which, as I mentioned, is constrained by the planning process. The planning issue needs to be looked at and addressed at a policy level, and from a national aviation policy perspective. It needs to be streamlined and accelerated. From the airport's perspective, there needs to be a change in ambition and execution to deliver this infrastructure as early as possible. It accrues to the benefit of the economy. We mentioned at the start that the development of Dublin Airport as a hub will be a key driver of GDP in the economy. It is a massive contributor because it not only supports tourism but foreign direct investment. It is infrastructure that delivers and it is money well spent. It is the urgency we need to see a focus on.

I would wonder why the airport would not want to realise the same sort of ambition.

Are the witnesses comfortable with the regulator's ruling on charges at the airport over the years? Are they comfortable with that model?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

We are and we support the model.

The DAA are always complaining that the airlines are looking for a higher rate and that is holding back investment.

Mr. Donal Moriarty

Airports will always say that; that is part of the process. We are comfortable with the regulatory model. Without it, with such a dominant airport in the Irish market, I do not know what the charging would be, but we are comfortable with the rigour. We do not see anything wrong with that.

How competitive are the airport charges in Dublin, Shannon and Cork airports internationally?

Mr. Donal Moriarty

I will let Mr. Moody touch upon that but they are competitive. That competitiveness is driven by the regulatory process that is in place and that we believe is appropriate.

Mr. Reid Moody

Yes, we have done quite a lot of analysis over the years on this particular subject. It is slightly relative because there are always the outliers of the likes of Heathrow Airport but on a European basis, we see Dublin as being roughly average.

On the earlier point we think the regulatory regime that goes into this here is apt because, again Covid-19 aside, the prices that have been imposed on Dublin Airport have enabled it to deliver a healthy profit as well over the long term. They are able to put in the investment, charge the price imposed on them by the regulator, and deliver a healthy profit. We do not see that there is anything wrong with that.

I thank Mr. Moody. I call Deputy O'Rourke.

I know this was touched on by a number of people, including my colleague Deputy Ó Murchú, but I refer again to the infrastructure to facilitate de-icing. We are in the middle of a cold snap and there has been an impact on flights to and from Dublin. Is that is an issue or what was its contribution, if at all, to the challenges in the past number of days?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

We had some discussions on this earlier around the facilities at the airport. The public statements from the airport were quite different from the experience on the ground. Runways were clear but a lot of the apron areas were not in a good state-----

When Mr. O'Neill says apron areas, what does he mean?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

The area around the aircraft, and particularly where passengers walk out to the aircraft as well, because not everything is-----

Is that under the curtilage of the DAA?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

Yes, to have those areas cleared. The conditions were difficult on Thursday and Friday because of the volume of precipitation and it had frozen. Notwithstanding that, there was a very public statement that everything is good and it is all down to the airlines and ground handlers to do the de-icing, which absolutely is the responsibility of those entities. However what was happening then in addition was that our ground crews could not necessarily get equipment to the aircraft to load baggage and would have to call the DAA to come back to address black ice in the area of the aircraft. We have had good engagement with its staff on it this week at an operational level and they put their hands up to it and on where they could do better and identify lessons learned. We have seen a steady improvement in performance.

What about Aer Lingus's own readiness and preparation?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

Our de-icing is carried out by our provider, Signature. We were very happy with their performance. All of their rigs were available through the period. Inevitably with the way it was presented on Friday morning, the de-icing had to take place much closer to departure because precipitation was still falling so the holdover time was reduced. That inevitably led to some delays but we operated more than 90% of our schedule on Friday so we were very happy with that performance overall.

My last question relates to some earlier questions on the decision-making criteria. As part of this process what we are trying to explore as a committee is what the levers that Government or airports have to try to encourage additional routes and additional traffic, and how we might as part of that look at a more even distribution of traffic across the airports in the State. The witnesses mentioned marketing support, route incentives and airport charges. Can they give examples of where that has worked? We touched to some degree on airport charges but what will Mr. Moody touch on the types of things that can be achieved if we get those policies right?

Mr. Reid Moody

I do not want to go into specific commercial deals-----

Mr. Reid Moody

-----but there are three areas. What small or medium-sized airports that are non-regulated tend to do to encourage traffic would be to say it will give us a period where it will reduce the landing fees or the terminal charges. Outside of that, regional bodies such as tourism or business bodies could put subsidies together to encourage that - on the tourism side, from the tourism bodies and on the business foreign direct investment side, from any of the business communities. The third piece is more on a national level where there are development funds targeted at specific areas. That would be the general way it works.

We at Aer Lingus always want to look carefully at the long-term structure of the route because if artificial funding or a shot of adrenaline is given that lasts a couple of years, we do not want to be the kind of business that goes in for a couple of years, takes that and then leaves. There has to be some basic economics to this as well in terms of the supply and demand. As for my earlier comment, anything the region can do and anything the State can do to encourage as much inward tourism as possible to organically lift demand for the country gives us a much firmer footing long term. Then we have the support for the first two or three years to give us that little bit of risk reduction. However, it has to be twofold. That initial support is needed but there also needs to be the underlying demand, and that underlying demand can be a steady state or it can be an organic growth.

Aer Lingus wants the route able to fly on its own wings.

Mr. Reid Moody

We have to yes, we do not want to be-----

Is it from year three or year four?

Mr. Reid Moody

It depends. Sometimes it is from the start of year three, sometimes from the start of year four. There is a multitude of ways that this works.

It is about regional economies. Aer Lingus operates in a number of jurisdictions but are there areas, regions or countries that do this well?

Mr. Reid Moody

Every country has good and bad examples. It depends more on the region within the country and the airport. Some airports are proactive in taking more risk with a lower incentive and that encourages more growth. Some airports are good at bringing the local communities together to get that further boost. There is no nation that does it well; there are more specific regions and airports.

There are some common features and characteristics of success, such as strong regional government, strong local tourism boards, strong airports-----

Mr. Reid Moody

I agree with that.

-----and a clear strategy, plan and business proposition.

Mr. Reid Moody

I totally agree with that but I just want to reinforce the point that there needs to be underlying, organic demand as well.

Ms Lynne Embleton

I recognise the importance of the regional airports but those countries that stand out with strong aviation industries are those that have put the effort into developing a hub, particularly those where the underlying population may be relatively small and they have successful industries built on the economics of hubbing. The Middle East is a prime example. It has developed an incredible aviation industry, possibly surprisingly if one thinks about the local demand, but that has been done through building very effective hubs.

Where is the hub in the Middle East that Ms. Embleton mentioned?

Ms Lynne Embleton

Qatar and the Emirates are an example. They have very successful industries built around hubs.

We said we would conclude at 12 noon. In summary. Dublin has to be built to be a hub, Aer Lingus wants point-to-points for the other airports and sustainable aviation fuel is key.

Where Dublin in concerned, Ryanair is of the same view as Aer Lingus in that it wants the stands. Is it fair to say Aer Lingus is not talking about a third terminal but about stands with a feed off the runway?

Mr. Peter O'Neill

We are talking about additional stands but also a pier 5 in the south of the airport. That is in the capital investment plan.

So it is all in the plan and it is just a question of how the authorities progress it.

Mr. Peter O'Neill

Correct.

One always has to deal with the immediate as well. What is happening in Dublin Airport certainly does not inspire confidence. On hearing the update on de-icing, we note the DAA was partially responsible. It has admitted this to the witnesses privately but also needs to state it publicly. Second, the security and staffing numbers are way below what would have been expected. The number is nearly 20% below what DAA said it would be, which is 800. Ms Embleton spoke about next summer. She made a point previously at a meeting that she is concerned about next summer. The number of security staff in place is not sufficient at 645. Six hundred and ten of those are operational and there are 35 trainees. That is only the same number that there were in the summer. In the summer, task force staff who were not front-line staff had be involved. That is no way to run an airport. It is a matter we will be following up with the DAA. I assume the witnesses will meet the authority's representatives daily.

Mr. Peter O'Neill

Absolutely.

If matters arise that require further attention, the witnesses might revert to us.

I thank Ms Embleton, Mr. Moriarty, Mr. Moody and Mr. O'Neill for attending today to work with us on our deliberations on the national aviation policy. I thank them very much for travelling. We will follow up on the subject matter again. We have no doubt that the witnesses will be before us again on this matter and others. I wish them all a happy Christmas. I thank all the staff here for all the fantastic work they have done during the year. I wish them all a happy Christmas.

The next meeting of the joint committee will be a private session on Microsoft Teams tomorrow at 4 p.m., Thursday, 15 December 2022.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.52 a.m. sine die.
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