Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Wednesday, 19 Apr 2023

Shannon Foynes Port Company: Chairperson Designate (Resumed)

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

Apologies have been received from Deputy Duncan Smith. The purpose of the meeting is to continue the committee's discussion of the reappointment of the chair designate of the Shannon Foynes Port Company. We are joined by Mr. David McGarry, chair designate of the Shannon Foynes Port Company and also a previous chair of the company. Mr. McGarry is very welcome.

Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask members participating via Microsoft Teams that, prior to making a contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex.

If attending in the committee room, members and witnesses are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I welcome Mr. McGarry and invite him to make his opening statement.

Mr. David McGarry

I thank the committee for this invitation. I have served as chairperson of Shannon Foynes Port Company for the past five years. I am married with four children, and have worked for 35 years in general management and finance. I am a chartered accountant, having trained with KPMG. I am a chartered director and hold a BComm degree from University College Cork, UCC and a master of business administration, MBA, from the Katholieke Universiteit Leuven in Belgium. During my career, I have worked with NCB Stockbrokers; Indaver, the renewable energy group, as its finance director; and the Shannon Airport Group, as its inaugural chief financial officer, CFO. I currently work with Enva Group, a waste management organisation, as its head of acquisitions.

I am experienced across industries and have worked and lived internationally for several years. I know the Shannon region, having lived and worked in County Clare while at Shannon Group. I am now based in Dublin. I was also appointed chair of Tailte Éireann on 30 March last. I have non-executive director experience as a former director of Bus Éireann and other private companies.

As chairperson, I have a number of ongoing priorities leading the board of the port. I want to ensure the port has a clear vision and strategic plan; ensure financial and operational performance, good customer focus and sufficient capacity and infrastructure; and ensure it has a high-performing board that supports management and staff, implements Government policy, demonstrates good corporate governance and builds good relationships.

I am pleased to say the port is in good financial health, paying record dividends to the State. In 2021, the earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortisation, EBITDA, or operating profit, was €7.6 million. Port turnover is approximately €16 million. The port will report another excellent year in 2022 and is investing €28 million on infrastructure projects this year, largely in Foynes, as part of a €50 million, five-year capital investment programme.

Shannon Foynes Port Company is responsible for the maritime management of the Shannon Estuary. The port is an economic driver of the mid-west region. As the State’s largest bulk port, it handles over 10 million tonnes per annum, which is approximately 20% of Ireland’s maritime cargo, across six terminals on the estuary. The Foynes Port, Limerick docks and Shannon Airport facilities are owned and operated by Shannon Foynes Port Company. The other three facilities at Tarbert, Aughinish and Moneypoint are managed privately but serviced by the port. The objectives of the company are set out in the Harbours Act 1996, which states we should manage, control, operate and develop the harbour. The port operates in line with the 2013 national ports policy, which has classified the port as a port of national significance.

Shannon Foynes Port has a clear strategic vision outlined in its master plan, namely, the Vision 2041 document. Vision 2041 is a 30-year plan covering 2011 to 2041 and is on track. It has been instrumental in setting policy with regard to the port’s development requirements. In Vision 2041, we stated that a mid-term review would take place. We appointed Bechtel, a global infrastructure developer and engineering consultancy firm, to lead this review. The review was launched by the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, at Foynes last November. The review recognises that the port’s growth and expansion plan has evolved since 2011. The review focuses on the opportunities and obligations around climate action and national supply chain logistics. This review looked at three main drivers for growth and expansion: the deployment of floating offshore wind, FLOW, at scale; green industrial development and transition facilitating alternative fuels production; and port expansion to develop more sustainable logistics services, around container development at Foynes in particular.

Shannon Foynes is the closest deep-water port to the Atlantic wind resource, quantified at more than 70,000 MW and located within 36 hours' travel time. The review determined that 30 GW of this can be constructed from ports on the Shannon Estuary by 2050. This represents more than €50 billion of floating wind farm investment, creating thousands of jobs. The port is examining how it can develop Foynes Island to support this, which would cost approximately €500 million to develop.

The review also noted that the estuary is ideally placed to play a leading role in green industrial development such as green hydrogen fuel production from the offshore energy. This will help transition to a net zero future by 2050 and enhance Ireland’s energy security objective. The review also noted the requirement to expand to meet sustainable logistical services. The port plans to implement unitised container services from Foynes to meet this demand in due course. The port also continues to develop and invest in Limerick Docks, providing services for users and has an exciting plan to redevelop one of its non-core assets known as the Bannatyne building, which is located on the Dock Road.

Shannon Foynes Port remains in a unique position to assist in the delivery of many State priorities, such as offshore wind energy development, assisting the transition to a low-carbon society and enhancing regional accessibility and economic development under Project Ireland 2040. The upgrade of the Limerick to Foynes road will stimulate the growth of the port and act as a counterbalance to the economic growth of greater Dublin.

As chairperson, my vision will be to continue to work with the board, the chief executive officer and the management team. I will be focused on operational excellence and the implementation of the developed strategy as identified in Vision 2041. This strategy supports the overall development of the region and co-ordinates with the various Government plans to develop the port as a national asset and an enabler of socioeconomic development of significant scale.

I believe in public service, teamwork, good ethics and corporate governance. I have developed a unified board and worked in harmony with the CEO and his team to have good relationships with the Minister and the Department of Transport and various external bodies. We work co-operatively and transparently with the industry, the community and other local and national stakeholders. I would be very pleased to be reappointed as chairperson because I have enjoyed the role very much. That summarises my record, vision and relevant experience for this role. I will be only too happy to take questions on any aspects of what I have said. I thank the committee.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

I thank Mr. McGarry for his comprehensive opening statement. I have the first speaking slot, but I will defer that for the moment and let Senator Timmy Dooley in first.

Senator Timmy Dooley

I welcome Mr. McGarry. Unlike some other appointees who come before various committees, he has had the experience of five years in post. Perhaps he will identify the greatest challenges he has faced over those five years and what he sees as the challenges for the forthcoming period.

With regard to time, I note that Mr. McGarry listed his series of other interests and he identified other board positions. Will he talk a little bit about that? He stated that he is chair of another company.

Mr. David McGarry

I have just been appointed chairperson of Tailte Éireann, the new State agency.

Senator Timmy Dooley

What does it do?

Mr. David McGarry

Tailte Éireann comprises Ordnance Survey Ireland, the Valuation Office and the Property Registration Authority. The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, launched it at the start of March.

Senator Timmy Dooley

Given Mr. McGarry's executive role and his other board appointments, does he feel that he has the time available to continue in this role. He clearly believes that, but perhaps be will comment further.

Mr. David McGarry

I am happy to address that. Yes, I do have the time. I am committed to Shannon Foynes Port to the end of the year, as was asked of me. We are organising the timing and requirements relating to Tailte Éireann at the moment. I do have the time with my other obligations.

Senator Timmy Dooley

Mr. McGarry is committed to the Shannon Foynes Port to the end of this year. Is it an interim appointment?

Mr. David McGarry

It is a one-year extension. I can balance it in terms of the commitment. I will not be doing two chairmanships in parallel.

Senator Timmy Dooley

That is what I was coming at. I have to be diplomatic on it.

Mr. David McGarry

No, I am not taking on that.

Senator Timmy Dooley

So Mr. McGarry sees this as an interim role.

Mr. David McGarry

Through to the end of the year, which is another seven months.

Senator Timmy Dooley

Yes.

Mr. David McGarry

I am satisfied that I have the capacity and the time to do this and to commit properly to it.

Senator Timmy Dooley

I have no doubt about that. I was just concerned that this was going to run in parallel with the other chairmanship for another four or five years, which would put additional pressure on Mr. McGarry's effort for the region.

Will Mr. McGarry talk to us about the challenges that he and the port have faced. What does Mr. McGarry envisage as being the challenges for the board over the coming year? Obviously, those of us who represent - or attempt to represent - the region are very excited about the potential for the capture of offshore wind and the role Shannon Foynes Port will undoubtedly play in bringing home the bacon. The port is making that a reality. This will put significant pressure on other aspects of the State with regard to stepping up to the plate and investing in Shannon Foynes Port infrastructure. I suppose another way of putting it would be to ask Mr. McGarry if he believes that the plan in place - he said it is his vision to implement that - is adequate to meet the potential needs of the opportunity around the capture of the offshore wind, the conversion to hydrogen, if that becomes a reality, and all that is associated with this?

Mr. David McGarry

The key thing to answer that is to make sure that the port puts in place the base infrastructure and the capacity infrastructure, which really means developing Foynes Island, and putting that in place in the next five years to position for the offshore floating wind turbines that will come from 2028 to 2030 onwards. It is about that initial part of the plan. It is an ongoing work in progress. The plan will take up to €500 million to develop Foynes Island. That is just part one of a longer-term project to capture the wind energy potential.

I will talk just a little bit about the past challenges in the past five years and a couple of things that strike me. One challenge was to continue to work with the State agencies around the Limerick-Foynes road. There was essential work with the agencies, CIÉ in particular, around the development of the rail link. Connectivity and access are key matters for any port. These works are well advanced and well in progress now and are going in the right direction.

Just a couple of years into my chairmanship, we got hit by Covid. We had the two years of Covid to run and operate the port and as is natural with any organisation, things will get delayed and deferred. During Covid, with the assistance of management we kept everybody safe and healthy and kept the port operational for industry.

The other big challenge was to make sure that the port stayed financially sound and solid and to make some critical infrastructure investment, particularly in Foynes. In that regard, a major project that has taken a number of years of planning, design, and getting ready for that sort of large infrastructure was the joining of the east and west jetties. This is a €10 million investment.

It will also drain some land behind the jetty to create more capacity and space for the users of the port. That is another €10 million investment. We have other lands in process that are ready to develop for logistical storage space. Getting that in place in the number of years was the big challenge, but the construction works are happening now, so it has come to fruition. The challenge for the future is to stay focused on trying to do two things. The first is to maintain the trade services for the users of the port, that is, for industry. There is a huge ripple effect to that on the mid-west and the western economy. The massive opportunity for Ireland, not just the west and mid-west is wind and Foynes in particular. It applies to the whole estuary, including Moneypoint, Tarbert and the other key locations that are ideal for infrastructure to enable the offshore wind industry to come to shore. That challenge is my priority through to the end of the year and enabling it to happen will be the board's key objective and challenge for the next five years. It is about grabbing the opportunity that is out there.

Senator Timmy Dooley

That is good to hear. I have regular interaction with Pat Keating, the chief executive, at this committee and because of where I live and the area I seek to represent. From a public service point of view, he is one of the finest in terms of the work he does, the vision he has shown and the effort he has put in. That is obviously a really important part of driving that forward. I attended an event in UL recently that was organised by Eddie O'Connor, who is one of the pioneers of this whole capture of offshore wind. I hope the board is looking to people like that, who are entrepreneurial and innovative, to harness their ideas and attempt to put an infrastructural plan around them that will make this happen. There are wonderful ideas out there but somebody must make it happen with boots on the ground. The work Pat Keating and his team do gives me great confidence we are on the cusp of something great. We are well-versed in it and for the past five years Mr. McGarry has clearly seen that.

Mr. David McGarry

The other part of that is as chairman of the board, one wants to lead a unified board with the right skills and appearance. New members were recruited in and appointed by various Ministers over time. We now have gender balance and a good skill set. Any chair wants to ensure he or she has expertise that is across the board and not just in shipping or logistics and that kind of thing. It is very important.

Senator Timmy Dooley

I had a look at the board recently. I was attending that event and I had a look at the CVs of the people. Mr. McGarry has an excellent board there. There are people with diverse backgrounds and phenomenal experience. The company is well set for the future.

Mr. David McGarry

That board is there to challenge and support Pat Keating and his management team. It will ensure we have the right connections, expertise and knowledge. We brought in Bechtel to get the knowledge we needed to position for the future, to be ambitious and to go for it.

Senator Timmy Dooley

Yes, and Mr. Keating certainly shows that anytime he is before us. He works well with the politicians in the region and challenges us too to recognise the opportunities that are there. I wish Mr. McGarry well with the remainder of his board appointment and his move on to pastures green.

Mr. David McGarry

I thank the Senator; I appreciate it.

Senator Timmy Dooley

He will be staying closer to the shore now. He is coming ashore.

Mr. David McGarry

Exactly.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank Mr. McGarry for coming in and offer my best wishes as he continues in the role. I will pick up on the opportunity and challenge in the time ahead. We had news yesterday of expected bumper income for the State in the year to come. In Mr. McGarry's own area we have had a further report from Wind Energy Ireland in the past week or number of days. It concerns the readiness or otherwise of our ports and wider infrastructure to facilitate offshore wind. I think this is the second report Wind Energy Ireland has commissioned. Everybody talks about the opportunity that is there and it is well laid out, but picking up on the Senator's point, somebody must go and make it happen and there are a whole series of actions that need to be taken. Something we are clear on is our ports are not ready or fit for purpose. With respect to the construction of offshore wind facilities, I think Belfast is the only port on the island that is at that stage.

I will pick up on a number of the points in the latest report from Wind Energy Ireland. It talks about the need for the ports, the offshore renewable energy industry and the State agencies to come together as part of the offshore wind delivery task force. This is an issue raised by Deputy Naughten at Leaders' Questions today. I think it was prompted by the expected revenue figures yesterday. There is the updating of the national ports policy, which is something this committee will have a role in, to enable the State to invest in port infrastructure for offshore renewable energy. That is an issue I have raised regularly with the Minister. His response, which Mr. McGarry will be more familiar with than most, is the State does not invest in ports and there is competitive funding from the Trans-European Network for Transport, TEN-T, or the Connecting Europe Facility, CEF. The Minister will argue we have a particular history in competing for those funds and that Government will work with industry and the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF, to support the development of port infrastructure for offshore renewable energy. I ask Mr. McGarry to speak to the type of practical moves that need to be made, especially at a financing level, to allow Shannon Foynes to realise the clear and pretty spectacular opportunity that is there. I have heard from representatives of other ports who point to other jurisdictions and I guess the argument on behalf of the State on this is around state interference in the market and supporting individual ports. However, we can see there are many examples across the EU, in France and other places, where through municipalities a way is found for the state, in some shape or form, to financially invest in ports as strategic infrastructure.

Mr. David McGarry

I thank the Deputy. It is a very challenging question, but a key one. For Shannon Foynes specifically, our big opportunity is particularly around Foynes, though there are lots of other opportunities in the estuary as well. We probably have about three years before we really need to start developing the island, subject to planning, permitting and all the usual things one would expect before one can start developing that. It is where it will happen for the future, because that is the most appropriate location. That will take €500 million and it is just phase 1 of a much larger development. This is an essential asset for the State and a phenomenal economic and climate opportunity. The State should grab it.

On the funding, I imagine in due course the board of Shannon Foynes will have to talk with the Department of Transport around how it is going to fund that and there are a number of different avenues. They include commercial banks, possibly, depending on who we partner with, and Shannon Foynes probably has to partner with other agencies of the State and maybe third-party private organisations such as infrastructure developers. That would have to be worked through, given the scale of capital required. The ISIF is likely to be a very good supporter and funder. There could be some other public investment funds that could be useful for long-term investment the State can get a return on on a legitimate commercial basis.

This is embryonic. It is new and has not happened before. Looking into the future, the State would probably need to think about something to enable this thing to get off the ground at the scale it needs to. That may be, in some shape or form, by financial guarantees which are limited to some degree for a level of risk that will bring investors and give security to be unwound and released. There is a lot of financial expertise in Ireland, London and in New York than can be brought to bear. Working with Europe in particular, this could be enabled to happen. It is an essential not just for Ireland from a climate and an energy security point of view but is also essential for Europe. There are many common interests. My bet is, given the risks of all of this, there is a need for some sort of guaranteed energy off-take to underwrite the viability of this, and not just on the commercial side of it, for the developers that need to be underwritten to have the off-take in energy to underwrite their investment which is in billions. Shannon-Foynes in itself would need to be supported by State agencies, that is, enablers, to be repaid. That is not to say it would not be on commercial terms, but it needs to be what I would call patient and committed capital. Compared with 20 or 30 years ago, the State now has those kind of tools at hand to enable these opportunities to come about and it can be more open minded than it was in the past. The state aid rules are a challenge and would have to be respected, but the port and the Department of Transport can work with Europe to find solutions to that. I am confident that can be done.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

That first ask is to look at that report. Does it mean that is the be-all and end-all of it? In terms of the forums, are those conversations happening? Is there a sufficient line of sight? I presume the answer to that is "Yes" from the Shannon Foynes Port Company, but does Mr McGarry feel the State and its agencies are all in step or is there room for improvement in terms of linking those? It is cross-departmental and potentially falls between a number of them. We talk about the Department of Transport and then there is the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. It cuts across many Departments in terms of aligning that to realise the potential of it.

Mr. David McGarry

The State, that is, the Department and Government, has set out how it sees offshore winds being developed on the east coast, the south east, and then in the west over time. What I would like to see in Shannon Foynes is things happening faster, that the opportunity of the west could be tapped into sooner than 2030 and could come to fruition. The west is in phase 3, as the Deputy knows, and that is some time away. It is to bring that forward. This is evolving very quickly and was not being talked about two years ago. It is really moving very fast and the opportunity is there to be grabbed.

My sense is that there is a lot more joining up, although there is a ports co-ordination group through the Irish Maritime Development Office, IMDO. It is fair to say there is a lot more joined-up thinking there and more relationships and prioritisation which I can sense than where it was five years ago and three years ago to now. It is coming together. All of this requires prioritisation and leadership at Department, Government and agency level. The climate change is the opportunity for Ireland and we are ideally poised. We can always be critical. Things never move as fast as we would all like, but I can see the leadership is there at a departmental level compared with two or three years ago. I believe it is coming together. I would prefer if the west were prioritised because that is a massive opportunity for the State. It is a huge opportunity and solves a lot of other challenges.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank Mr. McGarry and wish him the best of luck in the role.

Deputy Steven Matthews

I welcome Mr. McGarry. From the outset, I want to clarify one thing. Is it correct to say that he is chairperson-designate but this is his second term?

Mr. David McGarry

Yes.

Deputy Steven Matthews

Is that another five-year term?

Mr. David McGarry

No, it is a one-year term.

Deputy Steven Matthews

I apologise if Mr. McGarry has clarified that already but I was not sure. He was appointed last December.

Mr. David McGarry

By the Minister, Deputy Ryan.

Deputy Steven Matthews

Mr. McGarry's term runs until December 2023.

Mr. David McGarry

It runs until December this year, 2023. We are a little bit behind for various reasons and timing and scheduling. Normally, I would have been in before the committee beforehand.

Deputy Steven Matthews

Absolutely, and Mr. McGarry is very welcome. I have met with representatives from the Shannon Foynes area as well because my experience is in rail and rail networks and I have obviously worked with my colleague in Limerick, Deputy Brian Leddin, who was instrumental in that key piece of strategic infrastructure, the extension of the rail line back to Foynes.

I look at this on a more strategic level. If we pull back from that rail line, so to speak, we have potential for an inland port there as well. If we extend that rail line to have that western rail corridor coming down from Ballina right the way across to Rosslare Port, we actually have a railway network. Obviously, Dublin Port is under quite a bit of pressure as well, so there may be an opportunity there to relieve some of that. It is a relatively small country with a relatively small rail network. I do not see competition there; I see things complementing each other. There is the rail connection between the north-west Limerick area to Rosslare and Dublin Port as well. Is anybody looking at that strategic level? Has Mr. McGarry been part of any conversations to look at that?

Mr. David McGarry

"Yes" is what I would say to the Deputy. The opportunity is being looked at at that strategic high level. I am not directly involved in conversations but I am aware our CEO would be from time to time around developing the inland port or a container hub that could in theory be at an appropriate junction between the key lines the Deputy mentioned, possibly somewhere in the midlands, that would support Dublin and the west and would reduce the movement throughout the country, relieve congestion in Dublin and think more strategically. It is my understanding this is very much part of the broader long-term thinking. It is probably a question more for the CIÉ group or the Department of Transport directly itself. The conversation is going on about that broader picture of the opportunity and about the potential for economic development and growth, not just moving boxes but taking it from one location to another, adding two plus two to get five in terms of the economic growth and development, a correct use of space, and thinking about reducing the number of truck movements and using rail instead of vehicles.

Deputy Steven Matthews

It is great to hear Mr. McGarry talk about the advancements in the past two to three years. Obviously, we have had this vision for a long time and it is great to be in a position to be able actually to action that and to hear independent observers like him acknowledge that it is important to us. We then have to move on to that next step and look at it at that higher level. We have that clear vision of Shannon Foynes. We know the potential that has existed there. It is a really exciting time for that area to be at the centre of this. It is at the centre of the hydrogen technology in Ireland. We are all saying in our minds that this is where the centre of hydrogen technology and industry is going to be.

I note the cable route and Mr. McGarry referred to this cable channel through the estuary. It is something that will have to be very carefully considered. I was at the wind energy conference and Scotland was mentioned. Where they were developing these offshore arrays, they would land their own cables ashore and connect into the network at various points. The end result was so many cables coming across and this network and mishmash of cables. I think what they moved to is almost a shared cable arrangement where the cables from these arrays would be brought to one centralised point which would bring it onshore. Otherwise, over the terms of all of these developments, you would end up laying more and more cables up the estuary. Is that something that has been looked at? Has it been said that it should be future-proofed and have a 30-year vision of the cable requirement that is going to be in the estuary here?

Mr. David McGarry

It is, yes. It is on the agenda of the board of Shannon Foynes Port Company.

Through the CEO, as we communicate with the various State agencies - EirGrid and the ESB - we are trying to make clear that we need a grid infrastructure development plan. We need to think strategically when planning for this. We do not need several grids or cables that are badly thought through, put in the wrong place or deal with one customer. This has to be carefully planned so that many can use that cable grid to which the Deputy referred. The State has a key role to play in this sort of base infrastructure. It is another enabler the State has to look at investing in and developing with EirGrid, and the wind farm developers can then feed into it. This is a crucial piece of infrastructure, which needs to be brought together.

Deputy Steven Matthews

Yes, it is critically important that people have a vision for the next 20 to 30 years. We need next generation thinking at this stage. In general around the Limerick area, is there a sense that there is massive potential here and that there is a spotlight on Limerick now? We are all realising the potential that everybody knew the Limerick and Shannon Foynes area had. Is there a sense of that in terms of employment and chambers of commerce working with those different groups? Work on the rail line has commenced. It is always great when people see the high-vis jackets and the machinery start to appear.

Mr. David McGarry

Businesses and industries that I am familiar with in the mid-west and western region believe that the focus put on the estuary and the role the airport, port and universities - the whole ecosystem - in the mid-west can play in this opportunity taps into many of the strengths that are present in the region. Everybody is very optimistic and wants it to happen as soon as possible. They would like to work with the State to invest and support it through the right sorts of policies to allow planning to come together faster and in the right way. Certainty around the opportunity for developers who would invest is also needed so that people can pull together. There is definitely support for it. It is a phenomenal socioeconomic opportunity because of the nature of the work, the jobs it would deliver and the way it would future-proof the economy. It is a very high-tech, knowledge-based industry so it would provide good jobs and high incomes to the people involved. That would be very attractive to the people of the region. The mid-west has a knowledge-based economy going back over the last 50 years with the industrial development policy that was put in place in the Shannon region. The expertise and knowledge levels are in the DNA of the people who live there.

Deputy Steven Matthews

Absolutely. That is my experience of dealing with people from the area as well. It is important for the area that the rail line being built will accommodate passengers as well as freight when it reopens. This would open up opportunities all the way down to Adare. We will also be pushing for complementary benefits from the port as well to make sure that is done. When we are refurbishing and bringing back into use an old abandoned line, we should bring it to passenger standard because many other benefits accrue from it.

Mr. David McGarry

It is a starting place. What is being done is a starting base and that is where it finishes. My understanding is that it is a single line. I do not think there is anything to prevent another line being put in, from an engineering point of view. Electrification should also be implemented in due course and this can be operational for freight point in 2025. The passenger aspect can come later and build on that.

Deputy Steven Matthews

I am not sure of the need to double-track the line in order to realise that potential. It depends on the frequency of trains of course but trains can pass each other at stations along the way. The new station announced for Moyross will also be beneficial. I will leave it at that. I thank Mr. McGarry and wish him the best of luck for the remainder of his term.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I congratulate Mr. McGarry on his appointment. What a waste of time it is to bring a man of his experience to a hearing before a committee that has absolutely no oversight over his appointment. If we did not like the cut of his jib, it would matter not a jot. Mr. McGarry would be free to walk out the door there with a smile on his face. As the chairman of Shannon Foynes Port Company, Mr. McGarry is a lucky man. It is a tremendous port and I am familiar with the work and development that have taken place in the Shannon Foynes area. The bull has been grabbed by the horns and things have been driven forward. I see huge potential for the area in the future in developing wind energy and hydrogen production. There is a small issue with the storage of hydrogen if we start to develop hydrogen off the west coast. I have a vision, shared by many of my friends in the German Parliament, that we would have ships coming into the Foynes area and along the coast to Kerry, with undersea caverns used to store liquid hydrogen. As one German friend put it to me recently, Ireland could be the next Saudi Arabia from an energy perspective. Foynes has always been very independent. People in the area have always driven forward with their own vision. Does Mr. McGarry see the company expanding out of the harbour area into the energy sector in the near future?

Mr. David McGarry

I do not see us getting involved directly in energy. We will support traders and the moving of goods and services in and out of the six ports and terminals we have. Our role is to put the infrastructure in place to enable the work of the contractors that will develop the wind turbines off the west coast and the parties that manage the grid and transmission infrastructure. Our role is to provide port infrastructure that enables developers and engineering companies that want to move pieces of equipment in and out of the port and to do sub- assembly on parts of the wind turbines and to support the operational management industry. We are an enabler of the system. We are not going to get involved in energy or distribution. We will build port infrastructure but in parallel we want to work with all the other State agencies, private industry, banking, the European Investment Bank, EIB, and ISIF to make sure we have the right policy, that the right planning frameworks are in place and that we have proper grid investment to enable all of the elements to use the port. The port is the essential piece of the jigsaw to unlock all the opportunity provided by alternative fuels and hydrogen storage. We do not have base port space and capacity to handle the erection and delivery of turbines and moving them in and out and wet storage. The industry cannot be opened up without that space. That is the role of the port.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Does Mr. McGarry ever see the port expanding to take over other ports on the western seaboard? I would love to see Galway, for example, develop out as far as Mutton Island.

Mr. David McGarry

Such a decision on diversification would need ministerial approval. We have been very focused for the past ten years as a port company, independent or not, on working with the Department to prioritise the phenomenal long-term opportunity. This takes time and patience. It requires making the right contacts, communicating the right information and directing operations effectively. It is not about just trying to run a port day to day. A longer term strategy of trying to direct, co-ordinate, contribute and influence is essential to bring this to life.

We are only five years away from having a very significant asset in Foynes Island, in Foynes itself, that can untap the floating offshore wind energy industry and within the next ten years, wind turbines will be in the water off the west coast and will be generating electricity. That is our focus. The question of taking over other ports has never come up at a board meeting or in any discussions in which we are involved. We are very much about developing the Shannon Estuary and that is our statutory focus and responsibility.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

The port is limited in real estate, if I remember correctly. I worked in Alcan down there 100 years ago and as far as I recall, the port is elongated and is limited in what it can do.

Mr. David McGarry

Over the past ten years, we have bought various acreages and bolted them on. We have done bits and pieces of compulsory purchase orders, CPOs, to enlarge the estate. This year we are draining some acreages behind the pier and jetties in Foynes and are filling them in. We are expanding the space for truck movements to enable us to handle more ships. We are joining up the east and west jetties to make one big, longer pier, expanding it by 20%. Behind that, we are draining and filling in and developing some other lands for storage, warehousing and that kind of thing.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Senator Horkan and I visited Hamburg harbour late last year. It was amazing to see a harbour where there were only six human beings working on site, with the rest of operations automated.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

It s the third biggest port in the Europe.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

It was just amazing to watch but I am not sure that Shannon Foynes would have the real estate to get into the container business at scale. The port has the depth but not the land.

Mr. David McGarry

We are developing land. We are draining, developing and putting the infrastructure in place at this very moment. A number of initiatives are ongoing this year, running into next year, that will put us in a position to begin to operate a mini container port. It is embryonic, new and developing but there is demand for it. We will have some business later this year and into next year. Customers will be giving us containers to ship to other places. It is coming together. Obviously it will be very small compared with Dublin or Cork, but there is an opportunity there and that is what the port is there for - to serve its customers and fulfil their needs.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I wish Mr. McGarry well. It is a beautiful part of the country. Shannon Foynes is a wonderful little harbour. Back in the 1980s when I was working down there, it was dynamic and I am sure it is still as dynamic now. Mr. McGarry has a big job ahead of him and I wish him the very best of luck. We could not have fired him anyway so his appearance before us is merely a courtesy call.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

My speaking slot was actually at the beginning of the meeting but I deferred to others as I was chairing the meeting. Some of the points I would have liked to raise were raised by my colleagues.

I am not sure that Senator Craughwell realises that Mr. McGarry has only about six months left, even though he is the chairperson designate. There was a one-year extension to a five-year term and he is approximately four months into that extension. He has about eight months left.

I have been on school boards for the last 20 years and have been chairing three different school boards for 14 years so I understand the role of a chairperson. It is essential that any organisation has a good chairperson who is committed. I can see that commitment in Mr. McGarry. Always when one is handing over from one board to the next, even if the chairperson is staying on the board, it is important to discuss what was done well, what was done badly and what the next chairperson would be advised to do. If Mr. McGarry was doing that exercise - I am not sure it happens with State boards - what would he be telling his successor are the top two or three priorities? In his opening statement, Mr. McGarry said quite a lot about what the port might do. Clearly there has been an enormous increase in activity. The turnover is €16 million, with profitability of almost 50% on that. Mr. McGarry spoke about an investment of €500 million to develop the Foynes Island wind energy programme so we are talking about enormous figures relative to the port's current turnover. What priorities would Mr. McGarry tell his successor to focus on? Obviously, day-to-day operations need to be kept up but in the context of the strategic, longer term development, what are the biggest challenges or threats and the biggest opportunities that his successor should be apprised of? In the event that Mr. McGarry does not get another extension, what would he advise his successor to do? I would also like to thank Mr. McGarry for all he has done so far.

Mr. David McGarry

Thank you very much. It has been a very interesting journey. This is a long-term project. The port is an essential part of the economic fabric of the region. One cannot think about ports in the short term so I would be saying to an incoming chairperson and to the existing board that one has to have a very clear strategy and vision for the port and one must stick to that. It is important to review and update the strategy every five to ten years. One must stand back and look at what is changing and be very mindful of change. Climate change, for example, is a massive issue that was not really talked about five years ago. Now it is really on the agenda. One must have a very clear vision and goal. The goal is to put the port in a position whereby, despite its small balance sheet of €60 million, it can invest €500 million into its facilities to untap the potential that exists. The port must put itself in a strategic position and focus on each of the building blocks needed which include the planning permission, the grid connections, the right policies and the knowledge to tap into the financial solutions. The port must work with all of the various stakeholders to create a consensus. That is essential to unlock what is there. One must be clear about the big picture.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

What is the €500 million that Mr. McGarry talks about spending needed to do? How will the port get a return on that? Where is the revenue generating capacity of spending that money?

Mr. David McGarry

That money literally goes into concrete, into building jetties off Foynes Island, facilities such as the road link, the piers and jetties, the lighting and all of the other concrete infrastructure that is needed. Various buildings will be needed to facilitate the offshore wind industry that will develop on that particular part of the port.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

The offshore wind industry will pay to use the island, in terms of bringing all of the infrastructure out-----

Mr. David McGarry

Yes, that is how ports make money.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

The port will be servicing the infrastructure when it is built and so on.

Mr. David McGarry

Yes. The industry will pay for the movement of plant and equipment.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

Are there examples of other ports that have done this kind of thing with wind energy?

Mr. David McGarry

One needs to look to places like Norway and other Scandinavian countries.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

That would be in terms of oil. It is similar but-----

Mr. David McGarry

It is a parallel type of development opportunity. One could also look to what is developing in ports off the UK coast, particularly off Scotland.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

Would Mr. McGarry be fairly confident that the revenue that can be charged per transaction or per movement will suffice? Obviously, with a turnover of €16 million and profits of around €8 million, the port is a long way off repaying an investment of €500 million. I am not doubting Mr. McGarry in any way. I am just saying that it is an enormous scaling up based on current turnover, in terms of the kind of turnover needed to justify that level of investment.

Mr. David McGarry

It is an enormous jump and I totally acknowledge that.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

I acknowledge that Mr. McGarry is an accountant but so am I, which is why I am looking at the numbers.

Mr. David McGarry

I acknowledge that. Some of the €500 million will be direct equity, some will be debt that will need to be repaid and some of it will be EU funding. The EU funding on infrastructure could be up to 30%. Once one starts breaking down the mountain, the challenge becomes less. It is an enormous challenge but the opportunity is such that as it scales up and as both Ireland and Europe create demand for that energy, the debt can be repaid. It can be modelled economically and financially. This is a long-term investment that will outlast all of us. It is really like trying to build up another version of the ESB or like building Dublin Airport over the past 70 years.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

Mr. McGarry mentioned that the port company has been talking to EirGrid. It was suggested at one stage that the amount of wind energy we could generate would literally blow the grid if we were to try to bring it onshore. Have we been having conversations as to how to harness all of this phenomenal potential energy? I know that green hydrogen is part of the mix. We cannot necessarily bring in energy generated off the west coast of Ireland and drop it in Berlin via an interconnector. I am not an electrical engineer but my understanding is that it is not as easy as one might think.

Mr. David McGarry

We must take it one step at a time. There is an enormous opportunity but there are many steps. In terms of the grid points, if the power can be brought ashore, there are various transmission points in Moneypoint and Tarbert that can be utilised.

That on-land infrastructure will be developed over time by the ESB network management and by EirGrid. They will develop, upscale and enhance that to move that ultimately to the UK and France.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

Obviously, Shannon Foynes Port Company is an intermediary in terms of the offshore wind industry and bringing it onshore. Who is joining the dots between the wind installers, the operators of these wind farms, and bringing it on-shore via Shannon Foynes Port Company facilities and bringing it onto the grid? Is somebody on high looking at all of this and connecting EirGrid to the Shannon Foynes Port Company and the industry? Is that something the Shannon Foynes Port Company or EirGrid needs to do? Does the Minister need to impose some kind of guru to look at everybody and bring it all together? Where are we on that?

Mr. David McGarry

The State is the ultimate co-ordinator. There is a body called a ports co-ordination group. There are various other fora that the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

I am particularly looking at the energy side.

Mr. David McGarry

Yes, there are various fora through which the Government and the Civil Service can speak directly with industry. In time, as the phases around the coast start developing the offshore wind turbines and then the options come, we will begin to see the infrastructure and system coming together to join up and bring that energy to land. Then, we can supply it in Ireland and, ultimately, we can move it on and send it to Europe or the UK.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

Has the Shannon Foynes Port Company done financial modelling that says that if we spend all this money per transaction, movement, etc., that the result will be of a size that will easily repay and generate substantially greater profits than the level of investment?

Mr. David McGarry

Regarding these models, this industry is embryonic. It is new and it is developing. Not everything has been worked out. However, there is such-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

Potential.

Mr. David McGarry

There is potential in terms of the supply of energy that will go through Moneypoint, through Tarbert, etc. The Shannon Foynes Port Company will support that. As Europe decarbonises, Germany, France and the other major energy consumers across Europe will all need energy. Europe is decarbonising at a rapid scale; much faster than we had all thought. In the next ten years, or by 2030 and 2040, there will be such a demand, because this is the energy security Europe has been looking for. In the next five years, we will have to watch this space in terms of the economic justification. It will be step by step. However, it is there.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

I am looking at the Shannon Foynes Port Company's footprint. Before reading the opening statement, which I read last night, I did not appreciate that it actually has six facilities within its remit. There is a reference to the Shannon Foynes Port, Limerick docks and Shannon Airport facilities. We are speaking about decarbonisation, but simultaneously, Mr. McGarry is talking about Shannon Airport. The other three are managed privately but are serviced by the port. Who owns them?

Mr. David McGarry

The ESB owns Moneypoint's jetty and pier.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

Is it the case, then, that the ESB owns and manages that, but the Shannon Foynes Port Company services it?

Mr. David McGarry

We do. Through a shared-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

What about Tarbert and Aughinish?

Mr. David McGarry

There is a private owner. I think it is SSE, although I may be incorrect.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

On Tarbert?

Mr. David McGarry

Yes, on Tarbert, because it is an oil power plant. Aughinish owns its own jetty.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

I wonder then about liquefied natural gas, LNG, which has been spoken about. Was this in Tarbert or Listowel?

Mr. David McGarry

The plan for LNG, which is still ongoing as far as I know, was for Ballylongford, which is along the coast.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

Is that in the remit of the Shannon Foynes Port Company?

Mr. David McGarry

If that was to be developed by the developer as a port authority where ships are coming in with supply for LNG or fracked gas, different materials, etc., as a port operator, we would provide services.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

That would be a revenue-generating, profit-generating path. I am not advocating for or against it. I am just saying that if the LNG terminal went ahead it would boost the bottom line of the Shannon Foynes Port Company.

Mr. David McGarry

It would be a boost to Shannon Foynes Port Company as a port services company.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

The Shannon Foynes Port Company has a turn of €60 million and a profit of €8 million. Obviously, some of this may be commercially sensitive. What is the biggest part of the six facilities, in terms of profitability or revenue? Is it Shannon Airport? Is it the docks? Is it the Shannon Foynes Port?

Mr. David McGarry

It is what we manage ourselves, where we serve local industry, multinational international clients and local customers who use the port. What we manage directly ourselves is a very important profit contributor.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

However, the company has three pieces; it has the Shannon Foynes Port, Limerick Docks and Shannon Airport. Which is the biggest of those three?

Mr. David McGarry

It is the Shannon Foynes Port, by a large amount. It is substantially so.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

Is it 60:20:20? Is it 80:10:10?

Mr. David McGarry

It is probably 60:30:10. That is the ballpark.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

Basically, in terms of the long term, Mr. McGarry is saying to his successor to have a plan, stick to it and to be ambitious.

Mr. David McGarry

I think so.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

What are the pitfalls he would identify, not that we are trying to put anyone off ultimately replacing him has moves on? What are the challenges and what are the things we need to be wary of? To be fair to the Shannon Foynes Port Company, we generally hear about companies and State organisations when they go wrong. We do not, therefore, hear about the Shannon Foynes Port Company maybe as much as we would, because it is doing very well and is producing operating profits of almost 50%. It is ticking away nicely, it has a great board and a great chief executive and it is all going well. All that is really positive. However, is there anything we need to be worried about?

Mr. David McGarry

I do not think there is anything to be worried about. It is very important that a board has the right skills on it, the right mix, diversity and is a unified, experienced, competent board. Through the past process, we have achieved that. That is important into the future, to have a skillset that is not just for today, but for tomorrow, that the port will need to sustain itself.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

Potentially, new port members might have expertise in green energy, offshore wind-----

Mr. David McGarry

In hydrogen.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

-----and indeed in financing and managing-----

Mr. David McGarry

Exactly.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

-----that level of borrowing, equity or debt. They might even have the skillset in negotiating with the EU about the procurement of grants, etc. They are the skillsets going forward that the board will need in the future but may not have been needed as much in the past.

Mr. David McGarry

Absolutely. They are needed to deliver that strategic plan and to fulfil the priorities of the company, of all the stakeholders around the port, of the Department of Transport and of the Government in order to exploit the potential of the whole estuary. That sort of skillset, particularly understanding the energy piece, major infrastructure development and the funding piece that is needed to grab that opportunity-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

There is not necessarily a huge pool of talent out there with all of those skillsets. Obviously, there are some people, but at this point it is not a widely-held skillset.

Mr. David McGarry

It is not. It is a matter of getting executives and people from all different parts of life with relevant experience-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

It is also a matter of getting people who have the interest, the time and the skills to do all those things in the area. It is important, as somebody who lives in Dublin and who is from Dublin, that we have as much balanced development as possible. Is it the case that the Shannon Foynes Port is the deepest port in Ireland?

Mr. David McGarry

It is the deepest. It is a deep-water port.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

There are particular things that the Shannon Foynes Port can do that other ports cannot. Equally, if we can spread the load, it will be positive for all us, even those of us who are in Dublin.

I thank Mr. McGarry for everything he has done. I wish him well in his future in other places. I wish the board and the company well in its future. I will now bring in Deputy Ó Murchú. Deputy Ó Murchú was not here earlier. Mr. McGarry is a chair designate, who is replacing himself for a one-year extension, which started last December. He has only eight months left, but we have had a good conversation.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

He is very welcome. It is a kind of congratulations. I missed a considerable amount of this meeting. I read through Mr. McGarry's opening statement and probably missed all the important parts. However, the fact is that this is all about the port from a point of view of delivering offshore wind and renewables. Mr. McGarry's over-and-back with the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach dealt with some of what I was going to go into. I was going to speak about how we have a private company here. Mr. McGarry spoke about a number of the interactions with EirGrid, SSE, and whoever else it needs. It has a general timeline in relation to projections. Can Mr. McGarry can get into some detail on how he foresees the timeline in relation to delivering offshore wind? The Cathaoirleach Gníomhach has spoken about how EirGrid does not have the infrastructure to deliver on what we could actually produce. It is therefore a matter of making sure that all those conversations pieces are had together.

I have heard some commentators state that our plans, even at their best, are not as courageous or imaginative as they could be in the sense that Ireland could really be a wind superpower. I realise that is a trite term we nearly all use at this stage. We could change the wind energy map of Europe and even beyond. We all get this from climate change and energy security perspectives. Are state aid rules still causing a problem, or could they? That is about 14 questions in one, so I will let Mr. McGarry rip.

Mr. David McGarry

Let me try to deal with the timeline. The current Government policy is that the west coast will be developed after the east and south-west coasts, or will come on stream afterwards in terms of auctions and planning, which will attract the developers. Areas other than the west coast are to be developed sooner and the opportunities in those areas are to be exploited sooner, but the development of the west coast is not too far away considering that the west coast will start to be developed from about 2030 to 2035. That is when it will start to come together and when we will begin to see-----

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Is Mr. McGarry saying that, at some point in that period, there will be serious wind energy production?

Mr. David McGarry

Exactly. We will have wind turbines in the estuary and off the west coast. The grid connection will have been developed between 2023 and 2030 and onwards-----

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Ten years.

Mr. David McGarry

That is when we will begin to see it coming together. It is coming together sooner in the other areas, which is the priority.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Yes, in my part of the world.

Mr. David McGarry

However, it will begin to happen in the west in due course. Obviously, the grid connection and grid infrastructure are crucial. It has to go through planning.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

What is the timeline?

Mr. David McGarry

All of that will be in the next seven years. The grid has to be installed, planning permissions have to be obtained, the process has to be gone through, the auction has to happen to attract developers and developers have to go through the planning process. That is from 2030 onwards.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

What will the proposed grid infrastructure be able to deal with? Is it fair to say, as some do, that we are not brave enough here and need to consider greater grid capacity and then a greater level of production? It is very easy to throw out figures.

Mr. David McGarry

I am not an engineer or expert on grid capacity. I have ideas. The grid will need to be strengthened and invested in, I would imagine. I am not the expert. The Deputy would need to talk to representatives of EirGrid about capabilities and what is feasible, but I would imagine that the cable in the ocean would need to be very robust. It would need to be future-proofed to a degree and then upgraded in due course from 2030.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

If we are producing a huge amount, we will need the capacity to deliver or sell.

Mr. David McGarry

We need a super-grid and mass capacity to export the energy. I understand the policy is initially about addressing Ireland Inc.'s needs, future-proofing and providing energy security to Ireland.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

And then the capacity to build up.

Mr. David McGarry

And then start considering exportation to Europe.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

With some of the projects, we are talking ten years from now. Some of the projects on the east coast have been in play for a considerable amount of time. Even when nothing was happening, those concerned were keeping local politicians and others updated. In fairness, they have probably done more preplanning than anybody ever has. Some operations will have done it better than others. What will Shannon Foynes Port Company's relationship with EirGrid and the companies be? What are we talking about in respect of ownership?

My fear is that we will not get bang for our buck. Perhaps this State has not got bang for its buck over the years compared with some Scandinavian countries. They had state investment even when there were joint ventures involving private finance or private equity – call it what you will. I am asking Mr. McGarry many questions that fall outside his remit, but why not when he is in front of me?

Mr. David McGarry

Many of them are out of my remit. In due course, the committee should take the opportunity to invite the CEO of Shannon Foynes Port Company, who has knowledge and expertise much deeper than mine, to address the subject. The port works with-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

On that note, we have visited several of the airports. It might make sense for the members to visit the facility at the invitation of the CEO because there is nothing like seeing what is happening on the ground and what might happen. In the fullness of time, it would be useful for us to visit some of our major ports, including at Foynes.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

It is probably a matter of having a conversation with a number of the stakeholders on the plans and even where people envisage bumps on the road in front of us. That is before we talk about planning. What is it that the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, talked about? It was the competitive planning process.

Mr. David McGarry

I will talk to the CEO to invite the committee members to the port in order that they can see it and engage with us.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

If he believes it would be of benefit to the port for us to visit.

Mr. David McGarry

It would be very useful to see the potential of the Shannon Estuary and understand what can be achieved.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

I would venture that quite a number of us have not been to all six facilities and probably not to many of them.

Mr. David McGarry

The Shannon Estuary economic task force, which has produced an interim report, is due to report in due course. The report will be launched by the Taoiseach, possibly later this month or sometime in May. The report will publicise and highlight the potential of the estuary and refer in particular to offshore wind and what needs to happen.

The port interacts with all the major stakeholders, particularly EirGrid. We do not have a direct trading relationship. It is one of engagement, influencing, persuading, trying to guide and support, and feeding into the planning and thinking on grid.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

And getting everyone's ducks in a row.

Mr. David McGarry

The same is the case with the Departments responsible for transport, energy and communications. There are ongoing conversations on the challenges of unlocking the wind energy investment and funding, on how policy should be changed and on how the planning system can work to secure infrastructure faster and in the best interest of the citizen and the State. It is about co-ordinated plans and getting the best value for money for the State.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

That would make sense. Would Mr. McGarry be free to go into detail on that? We are talking about the hiccups and the conversations the port is having. Obviously, we all got afraid when we heard that, beyond Belfast port, no port was fit for purpose as regards delivering. Mr. McGarry is working on the basis that a huge amount of work is being done on getting ducks in a row. Since the State cannot necessarily invest directly, there could be state aid and particular rules, the fear being that one could get caught in a quagmire associated with planning problems and the question of whether European regulations meet our own. Could Mr. McGarry put on record the position on some of this? I would imagine he is having these conversations to get beyond it, particularly regarding policy direction. Where does he see the hiccups at the minute and where does he see the means of fixing them? That is the easiest way to put it.

Mr. David McGarry

Let me refer to the policy to develop phase 3, which is what is most relevant to Shannon Foynes Port. We would like to see phase 3 of wind sooner, not pushed out as far as it is, and have the auctions for the west coast sooner, rather than later. We would like greater clarity on the grid infrastructure, including the grid cable. Particularly for the Shannon Estuary, this would be very important.

We need to be engaging because to be fit for purpose and ready for the developers all of the infrastructure needs to be put in place in Shannon within the next five years. This will allow us to grab the opportunity and not let some other country or location-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

Are there any ways this committee can help or are there any barriers whereby Mr. McGarry can say he is frustrated by X,Y, Z or A,B,C and he needs Oireachtas help to speak to a Minister to unblock an issue with the Planning Regulator or the marine regulator?

Mr. David McGarry

The Minister is very aware of all of the challenges and opportunities. He knows of all of these issues that I have mentioned.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Mr. McGarry is dealing with EirGrid and the planning process.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

And the new marine planning process.

Mr. David McGarry

That is right. It is about getting through that. This is all about trying to help developers by giving certainty on policy, planning, funding and grid connection. These are the key issues that would help a developer to-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

They are also looking for certainty.

Mr. David McGarry

Developers spend money surveying, investing and consultancy, and on the resources that go in over several years, to enable one of these major developments that costs them billions of euro. They should know what is ahead of them and have certainty around it, including financial certainty. This would mean, for example, that the port could borrow money commercially or could get it from the State on commercial terms and comply with state aid. This certainty around policy and planning-----

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Has the change in the state aid rules facilitated this?

Mr. David McGarry

The state aid rules on supporting these types of critical investments and major one-off opportunities that can change the structure of how energy is generated throughout Europe, how it is supplied, how it is delivered and where it comes from-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

There is a greater good.

Mr. David McGarry

This is not just an opportunity for Ireland; this is also an opportunity for Europe. Many entities, from the Irish Government to bodies in Europe, needs to speak to the European agencies about how these rules can be overcome. I do not mean broken but worked with and complied with.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

They have been changed slightly recently but I get the point that this is critical infrastructure that relates to energy security matters. This should be a real conversation with the European Commission.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

It is also about climate change and decarbonisation.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

The committee has work to do on this. Mr. McGarry has laid out three or four issues. The big worry is speed. We needed it faster, quicker and better.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

If there is anything Mr. McGarry feels we can help with, he should let us know. He has outlined all of his plans and prospects. Many of us did not know as much yesterday as we do now.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Will Mr. McGarry document some of this? For want of a better phrase, could we have it in bullet points?

Mr. David McGarry

I will work with the CEO of Shannon Foynes. As Senator Dooley said, he is very knowledgeable and is a leading voice and authority. He has built up an awful lot of expertise on this opportunity over the past ten years slowly but surely. He has a very good understanding of how it needs to come together.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

Sometimes great public servants are frustrated because they are doing their bit and pleading but it is not so much that it falls on deaf ears but on ears that are very busy with 15, 20, 30 or 40 projects.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

The system can fail to react.

Mr. David McGarry

The urgency-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

Sometimes the immediate gets the attention rather than the longer term, even though the longer term is more important. If the kitchen is burning, we must deal with the fact the kitchen is burning and not with the longer term. This is long term and very important-----

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

For our future.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

-----not only for our balance of payments because we would not have to import fossil fuels but there is also the energy security aspect and the decarbonisation and climate change aspects. There are many wins in this. It is important that we push ahead as quickly as we can while, at the same time, not spend money unwisely and not make unwise investment decisions for the sake of rushing it. We all want to see more energy. We have this enormous potential. It is being spoken about now in a way that is different to five years ago or even three years ago. We have it and not every country has it so let us harness it. If there are challenges, barriers and blockages that Mr. McGarry knows of, perhaps he can let us know about them more than he has done.

Mr. David McGarry

I will work with the CEO and we will write a short letter on the key issues that would enable us to consider-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

If Mr. McGarry had a magic wand, what are the three, four or five things he would do?

Mr. David McGarry

-----the initiatives that are very important. To be honest, the Minister and the Department are all very aware of these issues as is the Government.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

I get it.

Mr. David McGarry

The issue is what can help faster.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

There is cross-party consensus to do all of these things. Sometimes things get caught up and we would prefer if they did not. Whatever we can do we will.

Mr. David McGarry

We will try to help by providing the prioritisation that we think would really help to move this faster and quicker and grab this opportunity so that it is not lost or delayed.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

If we could get that letter that would be the shooting match. There is no point in me rehashing what I am sure everyone has been over and back on. It is going in the right direction. Mr. McGarry is not too worried. He will do his piece with regard to the port being fit for purpose. The worry that we have and the issues are being dealt with. We just need to do it better in a more streamlined approach.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

The sooner the better for everybody's benefit.

Mr. David McGarry

We will be clear what the priorities are and communicate these priorities very well.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

Is there anything Mr. McGarry would like to add that we have not addressed? We have covered many topics comprehensively. He has probably said many of the things a few times in response to a few people asking the same questions.

Mr. David McGarry

I am very happy with the discussion we have had.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Gerry Horkan)

I thank Mr. McGarry and wish him well for the rest of this term and I wish him well in the future, including in what he does in his private career and on behalf of the State, Tailte Éireann and other bodies. I am sure he will be approached to be involved in others over time. I thank him for all his service to date at Shannon Foynes Port Company and other State companies.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.57 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 26 April 2023.