Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Wednesday, 8 Nov 2023

Irish Air Navigation Service: Chairperson Designate

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

We have received apologies this afternoon from Deputy Steven Matthews. The purpose of today's meeting of the committee is to meet with Mr. Bryan Bourke, chairperson designate of the Irish Air Navigation Service, AirNav Ireland. On behalf of the committee, I am pleased to welcome Mr. Bourke and his advisory colleague.

On formality and privilege, witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name, or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I wish to remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically presence within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate when they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I would ask members participating via Microsoft Teams that prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

We have had the opening statement circulated to us this afternoon. I invite Mr. Bourke to make that opening statement.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend this meeting to speak in the context of my recent appointment as chairperson of the Irish Air Navigation Service, trading as AirNav Ireland. In my opening statement, I would like to give some background about my own experience, and then briefly introduce members to AirNav.

I qualified as a solicitor in 1993, having studied law at Trinity College, Dublin. I trained and worked at a leading Dublin law firm for over five years. I worked for a large City law firm in London for a period during 1995 and 1996. In 1996, I joined William Fry as a corporate and mergers and acquisitions associate. I became a partner at William Fry in 1999. During the subsequent 15 years I worked for Irish and international clients of William Fry on some of the largest and most complex transactions across multiple sectors in Ireland. These included the initial public offering, IPO, of Aer Lingus; the sale of Statoil's retail fuel business in Ireland; the J&E Davy management buyout; the taking private of the Jurys Doyle Hotel Group plc and the subsequent sale of Jurys Inns; and the IPO of Green Real Estate Investment Trust. I have advised large Irish and international clients on regulatory issues as well as corporate governance and other strategic mandates. My work over the years has involved engagement with clients in many different sectors. I have always had to gain a deep understanding of our clients' businesses and business environments, no matter what the sector.

In 2014, I was elected as managing partner of William Fry, one of the largest and longest-established law firms in Ireland. In that role, I was responsible for leading the strategic direction of the firm, effectively managing and directing its people, delivering profitability in the short and longer terms, and ensuring the delivery of top-tier service to clients. I was also responsible for making sure that the firm stayed at the forefront of its market. During my period as managing partner, the firm successfully pursued significant brand and practice transformation projects. I was also responsible for a significant internal culture development project and, in my position, was effectively custodian of the values of the firm.

While I am not coming to the position of chairperson of AirNav from an aviation background, in the time between the date my appointment was announced by Ministers and the vesting day of 30 April 2023, I had a series of detailed briefings with the CEO and management team of AirNav. We have also now obviously had a number of board meetings in the context of the transfer on 30 April, and the bedding-in and conduct of the AirNav business since then. As well as attending the D'Olier Street headquarters frequently, I have visited the air traffic control centre in Dublin Airport a number of times, and have visited the AirNav sites in Ballycasey and Ballygirreen in County Clare. I understand that this committee had a very worthwhile tour of the centres in the Shannon region in the recent past. I also plan to visit the Cork operation in the coming weeks.

I have met a number of members of the team on the ground, who I have found to be enthusiastic, engaged and extremely professional. I am quickly gaining an understanding of the opportunities and issues facing the new company. I see my role as chair as understanding and guiding the CEO and management team on the opportunities and issues that arise, and being in a position to ask probing and challenging questions about them. Essentially, I am giving the space and guidance to the experts in aviation so that they can run the business to its best advantage, and that of its shareholders, while ensuring strong and transparent governance is the culture of the organisation.

On AirNav itself, the Irish Air Navigation Service, trading as AirNav or AirNav na hÉireann, is a commercial semi-State company that was incorporated on 2 February 2023 under the provisions of the Air Navigation and Transport Act 2022. In this opening statement, when I refer to AirNav's activities, I am referring also, where applicable in timing terms, to the air navigation service provider, ANSP, services provided by the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, until 30 April 2023.

AirNav's core functions, being the provision of commercial air navigation, air traffic management and related services in Irish-controlled airspace, were transferred to it by the IAA with effect from midnight on 30 April 2023, pursuant to the provisions of the Air Navigation and Transport Act 2022. AirNav provides services in line with international standards and recommended practices as set out by the International Civil Aviation Organisation, ICAO, which is a United Nations agency. AirNav is also regulated by the IAA, which now includes the former Commission for Aviation Regulation.

AirNav provides air traffic management, ATM, services at three State airports - Dublin Airport, Shannon Airport and Cork Airport - as well as providing navigation and ATM services in a number of different areas of Irish-controlled airspace, which covers 450,000 sq. km. AirNav is certified to carry out those activities under the requirements of Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) 2017/373. Its processes are approved by the IAA in line with European and international requirements.

Safety of air traffic management and other services is the number one priority for AirNav. With this opening statement, I have included a map that I hope is helpful in describing AirNav's activities. As many members will know from their visits to the AirNav sites in County Clare, the Shannon flight information region, FIR, refers to the airspace over Ireland and a portion of the airspace off the west coast. This airspace was designated to the State by the ICAO. The Shanwick oceanic region, which stretches to about halfway across the Atlantic Ocean, including the two areas marked on the map as northern oceanic transition area, NOTA, and Shannon oceanic transition area, SOTA, is international airspace. Under state-to-state agreements between Ireland and the UK approved by ICAO, air traffic control in the oceanic region is the responsibility of the UK. As part of the oceanic agreement, Ireland has been designated responsibility for aeronautical communications with aircraft transiting through the Shanwick region, and AirNav provides ATM services in the NOTA and SOTA parts of the Shanwick region. Therefore, AirNav provides a full ATM service to air traffic in NOTA, SOTA and the Shannon FIR, effectively operating those areas as one consolidated airspace.

As I mentioned earlier, safety is AirNav's number one priority. AirNav has rigorous processes and procedures in place that are approved and continuously monitored by the relevant oversight bodies to ensure it delivers a safe, effective and efficient service.

A dedicated team known as the air navigation services division, ANSD, has been in place in the IAA for many years. It has responsibility for continuous regulatory oversight of AirNav's operation, including, for example, periodic and random audits and inspections. In addition, any changes to our operations must be approved by the IAA following its review of detailed risk assessments and safety cases. Oversight is, in fact, conducted by both national and European regulators; namely, the IAA and European Aviation Safety Agency, EASA.

The Covid-19 pandemic obviously presented a significant challenge to the entire civilian aircraft industry. Thankfully, the robust recovery in air traffic levels is continuing and the AirNav team has responded to that in a very positive manner and will continue to play its part in facilitating this sustained recovery. Certainly, like other ANSPs across the globe, there are challenges, and the AirNav team have been taking all steps possible to address those in the Irish context.

I thank the committee once again for the invitation to meet its members today. This is my first appearance at a joint Oireachtas committee meeting. I am more than happy to address any questions the committee may have at this time. Members will appreciate that I am a relatively newly appointed chair and not an executive. I will answer questions as best I can but if I do not have the answers to any questions, I will, with the permission of the committee, take them away to discuss with the executive team and respond in writing.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank Mr. Bourke for his opening statement. I wish him well in his new role. I presume it is an exciting time in the organisation. It is a unique time, given the establishment of AirNav, to which some of my questions will relate. Mr. Bourke referenced the bedding-in period. What is his initial assessment of the process thus far? What has it entailed in respect of human resources, staffing and physical building space? What are his reflections on the bedding-in period?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

I was probably fortunate in some ways that much of the legwork had been done with the oversight of Ms Rose Hynes, who is the chair of the IAA. A lot happened by virtue of the legislation and the transfers effected pursuant to it. A detailed memorandum of understanding to try to pick up the detail of what went where was drawn up by the respective legal teams for the IAA and AirNav. A considerable amount of the work had been done. I am not in the building all the time but in my eyes, it happened seamlessly on the day. It was very well planned. There are six floors in the building and it was split roughly 55:45. We have taken 45% of the space. There are different access points for the two organisations. It seems to have gone well. There is always devil in the detail to be mopped up afterwards and there are still a few things to be sorted out between the two parties but it is going well.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Mr. Bourke has pointed to his role as chairman and working with the chief executive, the executive and the board. He has been looking at the opportunities, challenges and issues, as he has said. What is his sense of what are the opportunities and what are the immediate or longer term challenges?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

It is slightly early to talk about opportunities because so much work went into the transfer and putting policies and technical stuff in place. We have had ten board meetings since April. The management team has been working on commercial plans and possibilities. They have met with the Department to discuss its view as to breadth of what can be done. It is all very much aligned with the current AirNav business. They are working on proposals to bring to the board early next year. I am on the strategic planning committee. I saw some early thinking on those proposals but it is early days. Those are considerations around business opportunities.

In the company itself, there is probably scope for a little bit of cultural regeneration. That is not to say there is anything wrong with the culture that was in place. I am a firm believer that cultural regeneration should be looked at by the management, particularly in a business that is so people-focused. It is similar to when I worked in a law firm and recognised the importance of keeping the people engaged. That is on the opportunity side.

It is reasonably well documented that the biggest challenge was presented by the Covid-19 pandemic. There was a significant loss of cash from the business at that time because we had to keep it running and retain people to the extent we could. Training was suspended during the lockdown periods. One of the challenges we have is getting back to the desired level of air traffic controllers. The management team has been working very hard on that through the training courses in Shannon and going out and recruiting qualified staff.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

That is an issue I was going to come to. It is something that has received some attention. Does Mr. Bourke have any figures for what is in the pipeline?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

I believe that ten air traffic control officers, ATCOs, will qualify towards the end of this year. There are currently 28 people on training courses in Shannon. The remainder are due to come on stream next summer. I could not give an exact date. We are starting another recruitment campaign tomorrow for additional qualified ATCOs. It is a competitive market internationally.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

The following is not exactly related to the point but is something with which the committee will be dealing in the next number of weeks. It has been in the media as we have approached the end of the year. The issue is the cap at Dublin Airport. Will AirNav have to be consulted in relation to that? Does it have a perspective or opinion on it? How does that work? I presume it is additional work for Mr. Bourke's resources.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

My colleague has reminded me that I should also have mentioned that another 28 students will start in Shannon next February. Quite a lot is happening.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

That is in the pipeline.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Management has ongoing plans. The Deputy asked about the cap, which is principally a matter for Dublin Airport Authority, DAA, the planning authority. I view our business, if you like, as getting people off the ground and onto the ground safely, and through Irish airspace safely. I do not feel it would be appropriate to express a view on the cap on the part of AirNav.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I presume there will be additional responsibility for AirNav's air traffic controllers.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

There will be additional work for air traffic controllers but that is why-----

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

AirNav will be consulted in that regard.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Yes.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

This committee wrote to AirNav about a specific proposal regarding flight paths and the north runway of Dublin Airport. We have also written to the DAA, which responded and said that AirNav and the DAA are considering the proposal. I wish to flag it to our guests that the committee awaits a response from AirNav. I welcome the fact that this proposal is getting due consideration. I have also raised the proposal with the Taoiseach, who has confirmed that his understanding is that the DAA and AirNav are across this and it is being considered. We look forward to a response and I wish Mr. Bourke well in his new role.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

I thank the Deputy.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

I wish to clarify that this committee has written to the DAA which, in turn, has been in contact with AirNav.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

So we did not write to AirNav.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

I was not sure about that and wondered why I was not aware of that.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I understood that we did and I am glad the matter has been clarified. I think I am correct in saying, according to the response from the DAA, that there has been engagement. In fact, I think there was a meeting with the proposers of this proposition. I am right in saying that AirNav is considering the proposal and we await a response probably via DAA. I thank AirNav for considering the proposal.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

It is my turn now and next will be Deputy Martin Kenny. I congratulate Mr. Bourke on his new role. I think I heard him say he has had ten meetings already and I hope he is well bedded in at this stage. We wish him every success. We always want people to succeed in new roles and in this one because Mr. Bourke is leading a very important instrument of the State.

New business opportunities have been mentioned. I am always very impressed whenever I visit the Irish aviation and air navigation facilities. The staff very much make the point that safety is number one.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

Business is important too because there are opportunities beyond Shanwick and we are getting into other spaces, which is welcome.

I wish to mention a concern that is often expressed by the rank and file air controllers. The fear is that as we go down this market that there is a risk of it becoming slightly yellowpack but not in terms of safety, which has never been compromised. I mean the proposal devalues a prestigious product. It is important that the prestige is upheld while all of these new markets are scoped out.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

I take that point. Obviously the team on the ground who deliver the service are critical, very important and hugely committed.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

Yes.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

I had not heard that concern expressed but I note it.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

On a similar vein, and I do not plan on going into this because it has been well documented, but employee grievances have featured in all the national press over the last year. The one heading all that could come under is a shortcoming in communications. I will not go over old ground but I want to say that the more the chairperson can invest in good communications-----

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

-----with the board and the wider pyramid of the organisation, the better. The best thing we could hear from Mr. Bourke is that he is a communicator, he listens and that the internal dispute mechanism that the IAA has introduced is a well oiled machine.

AirNav Ireland has a beautiful office on D'Olier Street, which the committee should visit as it is only five minutes' walk from here.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Members would be very welcome.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

I was struck by the thought that the office is far removed from where the real action takes place. I believe that communication is the only way to bridge any differences and ensure there is a happy crew of air traffic controllers.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Yes. There are 600 people in my organisation and I have obviously met far from all of them. I have been struck by the staff that I met in the tower in Dublin, and in Shannon more generally, by their enthusiasm and professionalism. In particular, the staff in the tower were very open to showing us what they do. I am conscious that a staff survey was conducted last year and I have seen high-level results. There were a lot of positives in terms of collaboration and people understanding their roles. I was not altogether surprised to see on the more challenging side things like communication, well-being and those kind of things, because we conducted staff surveys in William Fry and much though I pride myself as being a communicator, I am afraid that I got some disappointing feedback. That tends to come through in a lot of organisations. Communication is important to me and it is something on which I would like to do more. As I told my colleague when waiting outside, when I went for my first tour of the tower with the CEO I did not know that everybody knew that I was the new chairman so I did not go around and shake hands with people. I was annoyed with myself afterwards when I discovered that they did know, as I had thought they thought I was just some punter on a tour, so I will get around to that.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

A chairperson is not omnipresent in the organisation.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

A chairperson does not see everything and that is a good thing. I was a teacher for a long time and the chairperson of the board of management used to visit every now and again. The chair did not have knowledge of all the day-to-day stuff but had a sufficient level of oversight and that is positive. One should not have to know. I am going back on some of the questions levelled at the chief executive, who was here previously, but a chairperson should not have to have a knowledge of everything. I want to impress upon Mr. Bourke that when he does attend board meetings, and he has had ten already this year, which is a lot, that he probes and assesses the communication that trickles from the office on D'Olier Street right down to rank and file staff. I believe something is wrong when industrial relation stuff comes through a constituency email or letter and then comes to this committee, which shows that communications have broken down. I will not go over the issue. I believe communication must be led from the top and we have every faith in Mr. Bourke.

I have two questions but they may concern operational matters and, if so, then Mr. Bourke does not need to answer. Did the issue of drones dominate a lot of board level chat this year? A related matter is unauthorised military flights but these were two things out of the ordinary. They appear on screen at Shannon Airport and alarm bells ring, when a flight is on final approach at an airport and a drone appears over the fence, and additionally, way out in the Atlantic when there is an encroachment in Irish air space, these issues go all the way up to board level. Have we seen a quietening of these instances, particularly since the outbreak of the new war in Gaza? Has this matter featured during Mr. Bourke's tenure? Is this a matter that must be discussed here?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Drones have featured in my discussions since the outset. I do not want to sound like we are doing nothing about the issue but it is more the responsibility of the DAA and now they have the machinery. The CEO updated me on disruptions in the business by email or, if it were more important, he would call me. I would have seen emails about drones causing problems, when I started. Drones are principally a DAA matter. It has the machines now and, as I understand it, the problem is an awful lot better. I have not heard drone-speak in a while.

On the military question, I was to attend here before the summer but I did not get around to it and I am only here today. I am not as up to date on the military piece. I understand that often, when there is unauthorised military activity we will hear it first from the UK military. I do not have that information but I can come back to the Deputy if he likes.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

I thank Mr. Bourke and I would appreciate if a note could be supplied to the committee.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

There are two major conflicts taking place and Irish airspace has been exploited. When world conflicts take off different superpowers think-----

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

-----they can flex muscle in our skies when they cannot.

I would love to see a briefing note on whether anything has happened in the past six or seven months and whether there have been any communiqués to the Department of Foreign Affairs, which has to be notified when it happens. The drones issue has been correctly taken in hand by the DAA, with the support of the IAA. I commend them on that.

I wish Mr. Bourke the best of luck. I would love if the committee could come down to the AirNav offices at some point.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

The committee is very welcome

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

It is only down the street. For anyone who has not been, I remember going into the board room and that the photographs are incredible. The history of Irish aviation is laid bare in those corridors. It is wonderful to see.

Deputy Martin Kenny

I thank Mr. Bourke for coming today and for his opening statement. Many of my questions have been discussed.

Approximately how many air traffic controllers are in AirNav?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

It is somewhere between 290 and 300. That includes station managers, who do not always operate as air traffic controllers. They manage the stations. There are, what are known as, air traffic control specialists who sometimes perform other tasks. It is just short of 300.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Mr. Bourke mentioned that there is a competitive international environment for that skill set. Does that mean AirNav has difficulties in losing people to other jurisdictions or organisations?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

It is a risk, especially as there are attractive terms and low taxes in some jurisdictions. I saw an article in the Irish Independent this morning about some of the airlines from the Middle East looking for staff in Ireland and potentially offering more attractive terms than the Irish airlines. I also saw that in my role as managing partner of a law firm. We went through periods when we were losing people to the UK or Australia. It is a challenge.

Deputy Martin Kenny

When he says it is a risk, does he mean it is something AirNav is dealing with? Has it lost many people in that type of situation or is it difficult to attract others?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

It is fair to say that most ANSPs are looking for people. It is a competitive market. We have lost a number of people in the past few years, though not all to other markets. There is natural attrition, retirement, lifestyle changes and one or two people took up roles in the IAA on the regulatory side. However, we are recruiting. In Shannon Airport, we have some qualified air traffic controllers from other jurisdictions who are training to be able to do it here so it works both ways, but the world is not flooded with them.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Mr. Bourke mentioned Shannon Airport. One thing that always strikes me about regional airports or airports outside the main hub, Dublin, is the opportunities that exist to expand or grow traffic into them, which may be somewhat more restricted or more difficult. We can talk about caps and so on in Dublin Airport. Is there any issue with providing staff to the airports outside Dublin, in the other regions?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Not that I am aware of. My colleague has confirmed that there are not. It is fair to say that the housing market is tight in the Shannon region, a little like Dublin, which I was not aware of, but we have not encountered particular difficulties there. We are committed to that area. We have important operations there and we invested significantly in the contingency centre in Ballygirreen in recent years.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Excellent. How quickly is AirNav informed of international encroachments on the airspace and what measures can it take or what protocols are in place to deal with it?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

I will return to the Deputy's previous question first. On the air traffic controllers, it is important to acknowledge that we currently have the number of air traffic controllers we need to deliver the service, but we would find it desirable to have more going forward with the development of traffic, which is why we have so many in training. That point is not exclusive to Shannon Airport.

Deputy Martin Kenny

As aviation grows, the AirNav team will need to grow and at the moment that-----

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Yes, at the moment, a lot of people are working overtime, because aviation has grown more quickly than expected since the Covid-19 pandemic. We have a lot of good people who are putting in additional time. Training more people will ease that burden.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Does AirNav have the capacity to train more people?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

We are doing so. The issue was that it stopped during the Covid-19 pandemic. We are looking at increasing the numbers next year from the high 20s, into the 30s. It cannot be done on a huge scale because of the nature of the training and the requirement of simulators and that kind of equipment.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Will Mr. Bourke address the question about encroachment on our airspace and what protocols are in place or how it works?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

I cannot answer that here but I will take it away and come back to the committee about it at the same time as I come back on the other point Deputy Cathal Crowe raised.

Deputy Martin Kenny

That is fine.

Aviation in Dublin Airport is one of the key topics we have to discuss in this committee. We have a growing aviation sector. Ireland is an island. We will always need air travel. How much capacity is left in Dublin for the expansion of air travel on the island? The DAA will tell us there is any amount of capacity but we also have to recognise that there is and has to be a limit to what can be done, for the residents who live in the area and for the travelling public as the airport can get congested at certain times.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

I am not sure whether that is really a question for us to answer. Our role is to make sure we are in a position to ensure that whether the numbers are higher or lower, we get them safely on and off the ground. The issue of the cap on capacity is in the hands of the DAA and Fingal County Council. We are more of a bystander in that debate.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Are there safety issues around it?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

We certainly do not see safety issues at the moment.

Senator Gerry Horkan took the Chair.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Crowe and apologise to Mr. Bourke. We had five or six votes in a row in the Seanad. Unfortunately, I had to do my duty and cast my vote.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

It beats interviewing a lawyer.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I read Mr. Bourke's opening statement when it arrived. It is clear that Mr. Bourke is an experienced solicitor with plenty of exposure to large clients. The fact that he did the initial public offering, IPO, for Aer Lingus means he had some exposure to aviation prior to his appointment, although he acknowledges he does not come from an aviation background. Our job today is to examine his suitability as a chair. I do not doubt it for a second. However, will he give us some insight into what kind of chairing experience he has, if any?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

When I was managing partner of William Fry, which is effectively the role of CEO, I chaired the board of the firm, which comprises six people, and sometimes the management team.

I would have chaired those meetings for a long time. For my sins I am also on the board of the pension trustees and on the board for our pension scheme. I have chaired that for years as well and I would run those meetings. I appreciate that is in a different context.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Speaking as someone who is a chair and has also been a chair of school boards and various other councils, local authorities and regional authorities, it is a particular kind of skill. I am not doubting Mr. Bourke for a second but it is important that we hear that because we would not have known that from his opening statement, for example.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Fair point. In my transactional life before I was managing partner I would have attended a large number of board meetings and seen a lot of impressive chairs in action. Sometimes when you get to the legal part you are asked to step in as the partner responsible and manage that legal part of it so that everybody is kept on track.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Mr. Bourke has had lots of exposure. I was not doubting him for a second but it is important to hear about that. While we can talk about AirNav, and we will, what we are doing today is as follows. The role of the committee is to assess all of the chair-designates of all of the various State bodies under our remit in the Department of Transport and in the bit of the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications that comes under our remit such as the chief executive or chair of An Post and so on. It is important that we would do that. AirNav is a new entity but everything it is doing it has been doing for a long time. It is just wearing a new badge for what it is doing. We were dealing not that long ago with the legislation for the setting up of the board and the splitting of IAA into AirNav and IAA and then bringing search and rescue into the existing or new IAA. Mr. Bourke mentioned that vesting day was on 30 April so at this stage he has been in as full chair for more than six months and he has been chairing meetings and so on. I ask Mr. Bourke to give us an insight into how the new entity has been going. I apologise if I am asking questions that were already asked.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

It is an overlap more than the same question. My appointment was announced in early March and when I arrived I would have started to engage with the management team quickly to try to understand more about the business and about what was going on. Being a lawyer, I was poking around into what the process was as well. It is fair to say that when I got going most of the work had been done on the transfer. A lot was happening under the Act but they had drafted a big memorandum of understanding which dealt with the nuts and bolts between the two organisations or the two parts of the IAA for what was going where. Work had been done on separating the building and understanding who was going where. A vast amount of the preparatory work was all done. Since then, at board level we have had ten meetings since the end of April.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is two per month or thereabouts.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

They come in waves as well as the regular cycle. We have to adopt new policies because we are a new company. On day one we took a lot of the IAA ones but we have been updating the terms of reference. There has been a lot of governance work and we are always updated on the business and on safety. Safety comes up in every board meeting. We are turning towards a little bit more strategic thinking because there is a lot of governance work to be done. The team handled it well. There was no sense on the first day that people did not know what was going on.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It was a seamless transfer in that the people who were finishing their shifts on 29 April moved to the people on 30 April.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Exactly.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Maybe the stationery had changed but what they were doing on a day-to-day basis was exactly the same.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

That was largely overseen by the board of the IAA, under Rose Hynes's leadership.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I get that its complicated. We visited Ballygirreen and Ballycasey and I have been out to the new tower in Dublin Airport as well. The Shannon flight information region, FIR, is totally in the remit of AirNav. That belongs to Ireland and AirNav. We operate the Shannon oceanic transition area, SOTA, and the northern oceanic transition area, NOTA, on behalf of the UK. Is that right?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

That is part of international airspace. They are separate from the Shanwick oceanic region international airspace. Under the intergovernmental agreements we have we manage NOTA and SOTA. We do communications for some of it, if not all of it but we do the air traffic management services, ATMS, in there as well. We would provide full ATMS in that bigger box that is NOTA, SOTA and the FIR.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is international airspace but there is some tie-in with the UK. Why is that?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

The Leas-Chathaoirleach might be taking me beyond my pay grade. I know that-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Apologies if I am doing so. We slightly teased it out when we were down there but it is something I was not totally-----

Mr. Bryan Bourke

There are state-to-state agreements. For instance, in the Shanwick region, air traffic management is carried out in the UK but air traffic communications are carried out from here There are a bunch of agreements around these things. I am not sure I can answer the question about how NOTA and SOTA-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I know that Shanwick is a combination of Shannon and Prestwick, which is where the name came from. The Shanwick and the big huge box it is in with the oceanic control area, OCA, and the FIR, are managed jointly by Ireland and the UK. Is that correct?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

The air traffic management is in the direction of air traffic in that space. As I understand it, it is managed from the UK but the communications with the aircraft are managed through Shannon Airport.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are both earning revenue from every aircraft that goes through the big Shanwick box as well as the NOTA, SOTA and the Shannon FIR. That is all a revenue-generating box for Ireland Inc.-----

Mr. Bryan Bourke

It is.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

-----and AirNav, on behalf of the State.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Yes.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

AirNav is not in the direct line of fire of Michael O’Leary but air traffic controllers in the UK have been and air traffic control in France, in particular, has been in his sights. We might also touch on sustainability in a minute. What relationship, if there is one, does AirNav Ireland have with the French or the UK as regards what they are doing that is causing us problems? Do we have any way of making that situation any better? The French do their own thing and we have no say in it; is that the case?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

We have little direct control. Even though I have been a victim of the delays caused by the French over the course of the summer, and I spent time on the tarmac in the airport, I have not discussed that experience with the CEO or the board. My CEO has contact with the leaders of the other providers so I am sure those discussions take place at some level. The company is quite active internationally in alliances to try to make things more seamless. It is in one alliance which is called the A6 Alliance and it is part of another alliance that the UK is not in, which is called COOPANS, which to a large degree is based around technology, procurement and delivering more for the smaller countries by co-operating.

I am sure those discussions take place but we do not have influence.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Ultimately, if there are problems in France, it is clearance is being given to planes that are leaving Ireland. They talk to each as to what happens but you cannot influence.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

You cannot influence. There are French implementing rules, IR, issues that we are not going to control from here. We have good relationships with-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

In terms of staffing, Mr. Bourke spoke about ramping up and how aviation has bounced back faster that others. I saw something on X that said that planes were holding over Longford because people were on breaks or people could not land at a ridiculous time. It may be totally untrue. Is it true?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

It was near Knock. I did hear about that. I thought it might come up so I got a briefing on it to make sure I answered the Leas-Chathaoirleach precisely.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am glad I am the first person to ask Mr. Bourke.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

On Monday night, there were two short shutdowns of airspace, which resulted in the holding of these planes.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

What causes a shutdown in airspace?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

If we get to a position where through absence, illness or fatigue, we do not have enough air traffic controllers, that is what we do. It sounds weird but that is what we do because it is all about safety. The aircraft are put in a hold. There was one further shutdown of approximately 30 minutes on Tuesday that did not result in any delays or holds.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Because it was at that time of the night when there were almost no flights.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

It was a mixture. Some people called in unwell. A lot of required regulatory training is under way at the moment. The focus had been very much on making the summer was a better experience than last year and a lot of regulatory training is under way now. If we do not have the people in the tower or somebody has to leave because he or she needs a rest, it may result in what it sometimes called a flow control or closing the space and planes going into a holding pattern. I understand that the planes on Monday night largely arrived on schedule even though they had to wait for a period in holding.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

So they might have arrived in Irish airspace a bit earlier than they expected to because of winds.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

It could be that. It could be because of various things. If there is any question of availability of air traffic controllers to man things properly, the decision that is always made is-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is not something I have heard of before. Is this a new phenomenon or does it happen regularly? How often does it happen?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

It happens all over the world.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

How often does it typically happen in Irish airspace?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

It is not that common. Since I joined, there were one or two instances in April but there have been none since then. A particular number of people called in and could not make their shifts.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Does it tend to be in the middle of the night or can it happen at any point? Could it happen at 6 a.m. as every plane is about to take off in Dublin or is that less likely?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

It is less likely. We get notice that this will happen. The management team is quite proactive, notify and try to manage it into quiet times and has been successful at that. It notifies the airlines and manages it very well. It is very common. A friend of mine was coming back from New York during the summer, their Aer Lingus flight was cancelled and they blamed Aer Lingus but actually it was a problem with air traffic control in either Canadian or US airspace. It was a similar problem that was about capacity.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

With more training and more people being recruited for this, we would expect this to happen less often and ideally not happen at all.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Absolutely. I would expect it to improve. Our desired level of air traffic control people is higher than what we have now. This is why we are training and working to do more. The team on the ground is doing a fantastic job but it is doing additional overtime. It is all regulated and fatigue-proofed but it is demanding.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I will ask Deputy Dillon to take the chair as there is a vote in Seanad.

Deputy Alan Dillon took the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Dillon)

Continuing the conversation about AirNav Ireland's transition to a self-funded model, I am eager to hear about its plans to ensure the continued safety and efficiency of Ireland's air traffic control and meeting other demands relating to the funding model.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Is the question about the relationship between-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Dillon)

It is about maintaining AirNav Ireland's responsibilities around safety and ensuring it is on a stable financial footing.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Safety is always the absolute priority and must take precedence over commercial gain. It was not the case during the pandemic for obvious reasons but the business is profitable again. The piece that is a bit different now is we are expected to look towards other commercial opportunities and it is early days with that. I touched on that earlier because there has been a lot of bedding in and governance. The management team is working on that. However, this can never distract from the safety piece. I am hugely impressed by the focus on safety. The management's dedication to safety will not be distracted by the pursuit of commercial gain.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Dillon)

My question is focused more on balancing AirNav Ireland's priorities. We know the aviation sector is continually evolving with new technology, airlines becoming more sustainable and more innovation. It concerns how AirNav Ireland integrates into that system and ensures it is a leader on that.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

There is a focus in the business on constant innovation. It has market-leading systems. I mentioned alliances. It is part of COOPANS, an alliance involving Denmark and four or five other countries.

They have effectively pooled their resources around technological development. We are about to begin a tender process for new systems when the current ones become obsolete, which will be towards the end of the decade.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Dillon)

Is this in relation to the virtualisation technology?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

No. At this stage, as I understand, it is more that the current systems will become obsolete at a point in time as manufacturers cease to support them. It is a case of procuring new systems that are as reliable as what we have but can do more from an operational perspective and can assist the air traffic controllers.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Dillon)

At a board level and in terms of the skill set and expertise, it is Mr. Bourke's role as chairperson to hold the executive management to account in relation to any of these new innovative technologies. How does he assess that? Are there sub-committees established? I ask him to give me a flavour of the board and how it is structured. Is there a risk analysis team? Is there a subcommittee on renewable aviation technology?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

At the moment we have an audit risk and finance committee. That would be largely responsible for risk management and the work with internal audit. I sit on a committee which has a very long name but it is basically on strategic planning and safety. I said at a meeting on Monday that we had to get a shorter name for it. We would be briefed on strategic things the management team might be thinking of looking at. I had a committee meeting the day before yesterday and a board meeting yesterday and we had a full presentation from the head of our technology team, Gerald Caffrey, who took us through where we are at and where the management team is at with that particular project. At a board level, we have presentations from the finance, technology and safety directorates and we get an opportunity to quiz them about what they are presenting on. They report on a day-to-day basis to the CEO but they will also attend different committee meetings depending on their particular areas of expertise. They report directly to the board as well.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Dillon)

There have been various reports and advocacy from many European airlines around a single European sky, which for many would create a more effective airline architecture. How does AirNav view this initiative? What are Mr. Bourke's thoughts on the enhancement of traffic management across Europe? We are at the mercy of the French and most recently the UK when it had technical issues around traffic management control systems. How can we collaborate better? In his role as chair, where does Mr. Bourke see that moving towards?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

I am obviously aware of the discussions around a single European sky. I have had some briefings on it. I would not say I have a clear position on it because I have spent so much time on governance to date Certainly when I am talking to the CEO and others at board level, it is something that comes up. I am probably not in a position to answer that question sensibly at this stage. I am happy to come back to the Deputy if he would like.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Dillon)

Absolutely. If we can get a position on that, it would be great. We talked previously about AirNav's employees. Is that number over 600?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Yes, about 600.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Dillon)

It is a substantial employer across the State. There have been some issues around restrictions due to staff shortages and mandatory safety training. Mr. Bourke briefly talked about issues around unscheduled sick leave. As chair, Mr. Bourke is probably not dealing with the day-to-day stuff. This is for the CEO to deal with. How concerned is he about that?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

I am very alive to the issue and the CEO would speak to me about it frequently. With the co-operation of a great team of air traffic controllers, we are managing to deliver with minimal interruption, even on an international scale. However, staffing is not at our desired level. We would like to have more air traffic control officers, ATCOs, which is why we are training in Shannon. That was obviously on hold for Covid because it was not feasible to train and in fact the business was losing money at the time because we had a lockdown. The team have been great in terms of co-operating and participating in overtime. We recognise that that is challenging on an ongoing basis. It takes time to train new air traffic controllers. It takes about two years. As I said earlier, we have some coming online later this year. There will be more next year and there is another course starting next year. We also have three air traffic controllers who are qualified in other jurisdictions and are going through training in Shannon as well. We are out recruiting. We are trying to address the challenge and the extra pressure. The people on the ground have been great. I think they know we are working on it but it just takes time. Air traffic levels have come back an awful lot quicker than people expected. The business carried on operating throughout Covid, which must have been particularly challenging when a lot of the rest of us were locked up in our houses. They had to deliver for vital services and the low level of flights that were otherwise going on. There was a lot of traffic that was important. It is part of, to my mind, coming back from a very big crisis in the industry. We would like to have more people and we are working on that. It is a big priority for the management team.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Dillon)

Will the cap on flights at Dublin Airport have an impact on AirNav's revenue?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

It remains to be seen exactly how that will work out. I do not have the figures here with me in terms of the split of our revenues but Dublin is a big contributor. En route is a big contributor as well. I have not seen a calculation of what it might mean.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Dillon)

Is AirNav concerned about the commentary on it, as an organisation?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

We have not had conversations about serious concerns. It is not our issue, if you like. It is to do with the DAA and planning and it is a legal thing. We are certainly watching it to see where it goes but we cannot control it.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Dillon)

Regarding AirNav's relationship with the Irish Aviation Authority and its role around regulatory oversight, has Mr. Bourke had much engagement with it? How does AirNav align both its operations and the IAA's stringent safety requirements? Is that on an ongoing basis? What type of relationship do the two organisations have at present?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

My sense from conversations I have had is that there is ongoing contact. The IAA has to approve anything we change, effectively. It has to approve our processes, it does random audits and inspections, and my sense would be that there is a lot of engagement there.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Dillon)

I do not think we have any more contributors online. I thank Mr. Bourke for his attendance at today's committee. It has been very informative. We wish Mr. Bourke the best in his role and assure him this committee will provide any support he needs. It is really important that we would do so.

On the buzzer, I see that Senator Doherty has just joined us.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

I was just about to be let out the door.

Senator Regina Doherty

I am so sorry. I apologise for being so rude but we have been voting in Seanad Éireann.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

I know that.

Senator Regina Doherty

I am sorry to be rude to Mr. Bourke. Is it okay for me to ask one or two questions?

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Dillon)

Yes.

Senator Regina Doherty

I thank Mr. Bourke for coming in to what is now an empty room. I read his speech and I want to pass on every good wish. I had my first foray into transport policy in the Seanad over a number of years with the Air Navigation and Transport Bill, to establish and separate-----

Mr. Bryan Bourke

I would say that was a long foray.

Senator Regina Doherty

I say foray because there were a number of amendments we were seeking to have included in the Bill and it took us quite a while to succeed in that. Thankfully, the Minister eventually agreed. Those amendments were around the staffing and around security and safety, which is not necessarily the primary remit of Mr. Bourke. I am curious as to how he thinks the divisions are going to go. It is obvious how the commercial section is going to move and shake but what ambitions and changes does Mr. Bourke see in the short to medium term for the organisation?

I am not sure I am allowed to ask my second question and I am certainly not trying to catch anybody out, but obviously the whole issue of the north runway is very topical in my neck of the woods. Without straying into any legal issues, I am curious to know the perspective of AirNav Ireland on this, given that it gives direction, on a minute-by-minute, hour-by-hour basis, to pilots. Would there ever have been any engagement between the Irish Aviation Authority, the airlines and AirNav Ireland with regard to the changes of the use of runways outside the planning process and the permission that would have been applied for? Again, excuse my ignorance if I should already know this. Put simply, the view of people in the local towns and villages is that they have been impacted very negatively in the past year. They have lived beside and been neighbours of the airport for between 25 and 35 years. Indeed, I am one of those people, having lived in close proximity to the airport for 25 years. Something happened last year that has changed people's life experiences and it does not marry with the planning application for the use of the north runway. When staff of AirNav Ireland are giving directions to pilots, are they constrained by the planning or just constrained by safety? How does that work?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

There was quite a lot in the Senator's contribution. I understand the question about the north runway but I am not entirely clear on the earlier parts of the Senator's question.

Senator Regina Doherty

The earlier part of my question is around Mr. Bourke's ambitions for the new agency, given that it is now a stand-alone agency. How, in particular, will it interact with the employees or the people who are instrumental in the industry, namely, the airlines and, more importantly, the pilots, engineers, and the air safety policy people? How does he see that working? What changes does he see coming and how soon, in the short to medium term, does he see them being implemented, if any have been proposed?

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Alan Dillon)

Before you respond, Mr. Bourke, I propose that I vacate the Chair to make way for the Leas-Chathaoirleach. Is that agreed?

Senator Regina Doherty

Agreed.

Senator Horkan resumed the Chair.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

I am still a little unclear on that first piece. Is the Senator asking about the ambitions for the organisation around our employees' engagement with the other players in the industry, specifically, the pilots?

Senator Regina Doherty

Yes.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

I have a lot of ambition for the organisation. It is a new, exciting organisation that is now separate from its regulators, which is good. It is also good that the two regulators have been merged together. Safety is our absolute priority. There is a big cost-safety interdependency but safety always has to come first. In that sense, it is a useful restructuring and it is good to have an agenda and management team that are committed to doing more on the commercial side, while keeping safety as the absolute priority and managing that.

Employee engagement with the other players in the airport is something that we would not deal with at board level. That would be addressed at operational level so we would not see that. To answer the question at a slightly different level, as I said earlier, I did a lot of work in my former role as managing partner around culture and engagement, right down to how we engage with each other and with the outside world, including with our clients, obviously and most importantly. What is done reflects on the organisation and I want to work with the CEO and management team to think about how we can do that better. A lot of it is communication. One of the things that came out in our staff survey, as commonly does in such surveys, which I would have seen in my other lives, is the need for better communication and particularly communication of our values. I am answering the Senator's question at a very high level because there is a lot of detail in that. I have an ambition that the company will have, and I am not saying it does not have, a culture that is good to deal with. Obviously-----

Senator Regina Doherty

I am a terrible person for interrupting, apologies, but I will be cheeky and say that, anecdotally, during the two-year journey we had to make changes to the legislation, it became apparent to me that the culture within the industry is not what Mr. Bourke would have experienced in his previous roles. It is lovely to hear him say he is going to try to change that because what was made clear to us is that there is a culture of mistrust between players in the industry. One of the amendments we tried to get accepted was to have the air navigation safety forum put into the charter and into the legislation so it that would be legalised and people would be compelled to come. In that way, Mr. Bourke could not invite me and Senator Horkan to attend and then Senator Horkan could just decide not to come this week. We did not get that one across the line but it is lovely to hear from Mr. Bourke that his intention is to make sure he brings a good culture to the industry, because it does not currently exist. There is an awful lot of mistrust.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

I can tell the Senator about my experience. I did not have any past experience of the IAA or the DAA, but obviously I have had engagement with the chair of the IAA because I took over a business from her. We have agreed we need to have a good dialogue because we are dealing with our regulator. I know the CEO engages with the CEO of the DAA and the IAA, obviously, not least because they are in the same building. I detect a desire to have a slightly more holistic approach. It is a complicated ecosystem because you never know, when you are travelling, who is responsible for what when you are in an aeroplane in the sky.

My sense is that there is a desire to have something more integrated. Maybe that will flow down. There have been discussions with the airlines about a customer care programme for passengers.

I am told that the relationship with pilots is probably more of an IAA matter. I have an ambition for us to be good if the others are not good, although I just do not know that. I have not met all 600 people or anything like it, but where those I have met are concerned, I have been impressed by their enthusiasm and commitment to the job and to safety. I have been in the towers and comms rooms at Dublin and Shannon airports and I have heard them speaking in a professional manner to the pilots on the aeroplanes, but there is more to life than all of that.

Regarding the north runway, I have heard the stories. It is a complicated matter. I have heard the issues of the residents but also about the importance of the airport to the Irish economy. Clearly, there is a balance to be found. AirNav will not be able to influence this matter. There are legal proceedings between the DAA and Fingal County Council, so I feel that the matter is not one for us to have a view on as a corporate-----

Senator Regina Doherty

That is probably fair enough. I am not trying to trip Mr. Bourke up, but I am curious. The legal argument is between those two institutions but AirNav has to take its instructions from someone. Will it be taking them from the planning authority, given that these are the rules that it must follow, or will it be taking them from the DAA through the airlines, whose pilots AirNav is instructing hourly?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

The flight plans are regulated. Under international regulations, the IAA regulates what we do and we need its approval for everything we do. As I understand the matter, if a change to the way the aeroplanes take off or land is intended, the DAA would initiate that process with the regulator. I understand that changing the direction on the south runway and bringing the aeroplanes back this way, as it were, would probably require military engagement due to Baldonnel.

Senator Regina Doherty

Yes.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

It is not for AirNav to-----

Senator Regina Doherty

Decide.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

-----instigate the process, but we will engage with the other players if it is instigated.

Senator Regina Doherty

What Mr. Bourke is saying is that, if an airport management company like the DAA had a flight path for particular journeys, sought planning permission for that path and then wanted to change the path, as has been suggested, the DAA would need to get permission from the IAA to change it and those instructions would be given to AirNav. AirNav just carries out the instructions it is given about routes that have been approved by the IAA or approval for which have been requested by the DAA.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Yes, and-----

Senator Regina Doherty

The DAA would have had to ask for-----

Mr. Bryan Bourke

------the international civil aviation rules in terms of partition. The Senator is taking me slightly past my pay grade-----

Senator Regina Doherty

Sorry.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

-----in terms of the level of detail, but it is a DAA matter to-----

Senator Regina Doherty

Request.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

-----initiate, subject to IAA approval.

Senator Regina Doherty

Got it.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

There were a lot of As in that reply.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

AirNav will then implement-----

Senator Regina Doherty

The instructions.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

-----whatever the IAA says it can implement.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

A safety management review would have to be done with the IAA. We implement-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is the regulator and AirNav is the implementer of its regulations.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Yes. Our role is to get people in, out and overhead safely. There is a great deal of regulation lying around us, and the IAA is a large part of that.

Senator Regina Doherty

I thank Mr. Bourke.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I was interrupted by the vote, but something I mentioned I might revert to was the issue of sustainability. Currently, there are lines, routes and triangles. Routes are like two sides of a triangle as opposed to being the most direct paths and, obviously, safety is paramount in all of these matters. There is probably an element of who flies over where. If you are flying over my territory, I am making money. If you are flying over someone else’s territory, he or she is making money. Without necessarily harming revenues, are there ways to make air traffic control more efficient while maintaining safety levels? The technology involved is probably much better now than it was when air traffic rules were first introduced. Flight paths have to do with routing, flying into the wind and so forth, but are there practices that might now be regarded as outdated or that could be improved upon and changes that would result in less fuel being burned and saving not just carbon, but money as well?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

I have been impressed. AirNav is something like third in Europe in terms of airspace environmental efficiency this year. The Leas-Chathaoirleach mentioned triangles. We were one of the first countries in Europe to introduce free route airspace, which allows aeroplanes to travel more quickly from A to B. I cannot get much more technical than that. Dublin has introduced continuous descent operations, which I understand involve aeroplanes descending in a much more fuel-efficient way. It has also implemented, or is implementing, a more efficient system of take-offs involving continuous climbing operations. I believe there is a submission in with the IAA to introduce continuous descent at Shannon and Cork. I gather that the efficiency improvements are quite significant. With some of the airlines, the DAA is involved in examining more efficient ways of flying. Its CEO was telling me about a formation based on the way geese fly. It all sounded a bit close together, as turbulence goes back a long way, but there is a genuine desire. We all live on the Earth. When the CEO told me about these measures, I thought to myself, “Gosh, there are people doing things”.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am interested in how much focus there is. Obviously, there is some. A flight might be advertised as lasting an hour, but the aeroplane spends 20 minutes getting from the pushback to the runway and then 25 minutes in the air getting to Liverpool. The flight is an hour, but half of it is spent on the ground queuing in Dublin. Are there more efficient approaches? Maybe there are not.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

It is a somewhat complicated ecosystem. Bits of it lie with the DAA, bits lie with the airlines and bits lie with us. In AirNav, however, I have witnessed a focus on environmental improvements.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Does Senator Doherty wish to say anything further?

Senator Regina Doherty

No.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I will touch on a final point. What does Mr. Bourke see as the largest challenge that AirNav faces as aviation continues to grow? We are an island nation, so aviation is important to us.

Is it staffing? Is it recruitment and training, and maintenance? There will always be people retiring. AirNav Ireland obviously needs to not only replace what is there, but increase numbers. What are the biggest challenges facing AirNav that we, as a State, need to be aware of?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

In the short term, it is getting to the desired number of air traffic controllers to lift the pressure from the existing team. They are performing brilliantly but there is a lot of overtime being done, all within fatigue-roster and regulatory requirements.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

In terms of work-life balance, it is not sustainable in the long term.

Mr. Bryan Bourke

That is becoming increasingly important and accepted as an important thing in the world, sometimes even in law firms.

I suppose developing capacity is another challenge. The industry is projected to grow absent something else awful happening. I suppose we as a board, with the management team, have to in conjunction with the Department agree the parameters of our commercial activities to make more return for the Exchequer. There is plenty on the plate.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

But staffing is the-----

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Staffing is getting to the desired level of traffic controllers and staffing generally. We have ongoing discussions with staff and unions about trying to achieve that work-life balance. It is just taking time to get to the right place, but the team has been brilliant. They worked through Covid and they have been working extremely hard since.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Every time we get on a plane, we rely on them for everything. It is a testament to the safety of Irish aviation. Thankfully, it is very good, very strong. Long may that last.

I suppose my last question is, while AirNav Ireland has its new legislation as we passed it not that long ago in the Seanad, is there anything else AirNav Ireland needs from us as legislators or as a State? Are there any asks?

Mr. Bryan Bourke

Not at this point, but we will be back if there is.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is good I put the question and Mr. Bourke said that there is not. That is a good start.

I will adjourn this meeting. The next meeting, not of this committee but of the select committee, will be with the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, next Wednesday, 15 November, in room 2 at 1.30 p.m. I thank both our guests for their participation today. We wish Mr. Bourke well.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.13 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 22 November 2023.