I would ask the Seanad to permit me to bring forward a resolution as a matter of urgency.
Leave to introduce resolution granted.
IMPORT AND EXPORT DUTIES.
I beg to move the following resolution:—"That the Minister of Finance be invited to enter into communication again with the Exchequer of Great Britain and the Northern Parliament of Ireland with the object of obtaining the maximum of reciprocity in import and export duties, and at a minimum of inconvenience to the respective interests." This question of the respective duties between the two countries is one of vital importance in the interests of our future—there are so many vital interests affected. In the whole of Ireland, North and South, comparatively speaking, we have far too few industries. In recent years we have had some new industries started, and if what I anticipate may be brought about, and if things are allowed to go on as they are planned at present some of the industries would have to be abandoned altogether, so that I think it is a matter claiming the very serious and the urgent attention of the Seanad and the Dáil. The industry that is especially present to my mind is the great works of Messrs. Ford & Son that were recently started in my own city and neighbourhood. Mr. Ford is an Irishman born in the Co. Cork, and, as a true patriot, when he was enlarging his great business for the manufacture of automobiles in the United States of America—by far the largest factory of the kind in the world— when he thought of extending his business in Europe, the first place that occurred to him to start such works was in Ireland and in his own native County of Cork. With that object in view he acquired a large property in Cork extending over six acres and expended several hundreds of thousands of pounds in capital. The expenditure on the buildings put up in the last few years amounts to over £250,000. The machinery and plant cost no less than £625,000. To-day the firm employs 1,800 men, and the wages bill amounts to about £10,000 a week. The men's wages when compared with other firms are found not to be less, at any rate, but on the contrary considerably more than those paid by any other firm in the South of Ireland. Looking to the future they were preparing to export from Ireland in this year of grace 1923, parts of cars and engines amounting in value to one and a half millions of money. The arrangement was to consign these engines and parts to the assembly plant in Manchester. If the tax that is proposed to be inflicted on this valuable export be carried out it would mean for the British Treasury and for the Chancellor across the Channel no less than £275,000 yearly. I submit that it would be practically impossible tax, because, although Messrs. Ford are an enormously wealthy firm they must work their business on an economic basis, and it would be practically an impossibility for them to continue their work in Cork, at least I am so advised by their manager. I would like to point out that on the 22nd February, 1922, the late President Griffith, whose memory we all cherish, and who was alluded to so suitably in the Seanad only yesterday, and also on a previous occasion, gave his assurance to the management of Messrs. Ford's works that there was no intention whatever to set up a Customs barrier between the two countries with regard to their manufactures. Being thus encouraged they continued their work of expending large sums of money on permanent buildings, and laying down more and more plant. I venture to express the earnest hope, therefore, that some practical steps will be taken in hands at once, and that with that object the resolution I submit will be adopted and carried out. It has been suggested to me that one way out of the difficulty would be, if they could differentiate between the manufacture of motor cars and automobiles, and other exports or imports, so that the duty we would impose on imports manufactured in Great Britain would about cover the exports of Ford cars from Ireland. If some means like that could be adopted it would be a great advantage to Ireland, and particularly to the South of Ireland, with which I have the pleasure to be associated.
I rise to second the resolution that has been proposed by Mr. Haughton, and I confess I do so with some misgiving, because I can see the importance from the Free State point of view of being master of its financial resources and collecting its revenue, and for that purpose some sort of Customs barrier is absolutely indispensable. Those who have studied such questions as tariffs and customs barriers generally and duties protective or for the purposes of revenue well know the enormous difficulty of collecting the greatest amount of revenue with the minimum amount of dislocation to trade or the destruction of trade in some cases. My view on the proposals foreshadowed is that I do not think in the circumstances in which the Government of this Free State has been working since it came into office it has had sufficient time at its disposal to deal with questions like this which are really very intricate and very involved and may imperil many of the too few industries we have in the country. If some means could be arrived at by which we could carry on for the present until a number of representatives in the different industries were able to put their views before the Minister for Finance—no doubt some would be for and some against—it would at least enable the Minister for Finance to acquire a mass of information so that he could form a more mature judgment when he comes to frame legislation with regard to Customs duty.
Before passing this resolution, a little care should be taken as to the effect of it. The Government are trying to carry on in the country and they require finance. They require all the assistance that finance can give them: It will not help any industry in this country, to my mind, to make retrospective, or whatever form you may call it, financial arrangements as between the manufacturers of motor cars in England and the manufacturers in Cork. If the Government consider it is well to have a tariff similar to the tariff which the British Government has imposed upon Canada, on vehicles such as motor cars, there is no reason why we would not create our own industries, and there is no reason why that tariff should not serve us. I am not aware yet that the sending of certain portions of a motor car created tariffs. I have imported from France and other places portions of motor cars and other material which have not borne tariff; I have done it within the last month. As far as I know the Act of Parliament with reference to tariff on motor cars does not mean that there will be 22½ per cent. imposed on £128 on each car from Ford's. At all events, I think the Government might get a reasonable chance without their hands being forced as to tariff and the way to arrange it. There are many things I know of at the present moment coming into this country in such huge quantities that if you do not put a wall of tariff around them you will have no revenue. If you have no examination of goods, there can be plenty of arms and ammunition poured into the country. There are plenty of goods which should bear a tariff. Quantities of goods come in here which should bear a tariff, and which the English Government derive a tariff from. If there is no strict barrier imposed, I am greatly afraid we will have no revenue.
I quite understand the difficulty that has been raised in reference to Ford motor cars. Our interest as an independent unit, if it were not for the Ford works, would be to have no tariff whatever upon imported cars. If we do not get the advantage of a tariff here—that is, the 33? per cent. charged on imported Ford cars—I do not see exactly what complaint can be made by the Ford Company if a tariff is put against them from this country; nor do I see that we get the benefit of the car being produced in this country. I think to evade our general rules as to what the national policy of the Government should be in regard to fiscal matters, would be a great interference on our part. For instance, take the case of steel plates. I believe there is a heavy import duty in England simply to protect their steel works. We have no steel works, and we should prefer free trading in steel plates, whether they come from Sweden, Belgium, or any other foreign country. It would enable our shipbuilding here to be carried on at a lower cost than in England. Then take any other article that is protected in England and which we do not produce. We are not bound, I understand, to impose the same tariff. Musical instruments, which we certainly do not use to a large extent, and which are produced in England, are taxed heavily there to protect the British industry. I only wish to put forward a caveat against committing ourselves to a Free Trade policy before we have an opportunity of thoroughly considering the matter. I do not think it would be fair to the Irish Government to commit them to any definite policy.
I am very glad Senator Sir Nugent Everard has made that point, because I think this is a case where a motion on the grounds of urgency, on a matter in which everybody in the Seanad has a very considerable amount of sympathy, asks us to be committed to a sweeping resolution as to the whole immediate and future policy of the Irish Government. We are asked to enter into communication with the object of obtaining a maximum of reciprocity in import and export duties. We are asked definitely to declare our opinion at a few moments' notice on a question which has exercised years and years of discussion as between the Dominions and Great Britain, and we are asked to commit ourselves not only to a free trade policy, but to a protectionist policy, by the resolution which we have here. There is a small point with regard to the Parliament of Northern Ireland. I do not think that should be in the resolution, as the Northern Parliament has no power to deal with this matter I think if Senator Haughton would be satisfied, having now brought this matter forward and drawn the attention of the public to it, to withdraw the resolution, it would meet the point he has in mind. We are all in agreement that every effort should be made to meet that particular case. If he does not see his way to do that, then I would like to move as an amendment a much simpler form of motion.
This very interesting discussion, as it is now growing, is an illustration of the special difficulties under which we are endeavouring to function. On what is ostensibly a resolution of apparently no very great importance, or, at all events, a resolution couched in very general terms, we are asked to discuss the fundamental issues of free trade and protection and reciprocity and so forth, in regard to Ireland. With every good will to assist our colleague, I do not know that we can go as far with him as he asks us. If we are to discuss fiscal policy, a subject upon which the Seanad will naturally have a legitimate right to express its views, that would be a very large order. It is not an issue that we can decide even in one day's debate. As far as I am concerned I admit I do not know where I am on this matter of free trade, protection, or reciprocity.
I am not in a position to vote one way or the other at the present moment. It is perfectly true that my first teachings were the usual teachings of my time—free trade, owing to the influence of Adam Smith. John Stewart Mill, and the rest of those gentlemen. Things changed a little later, and when one discovered people like Cairns, Devas, and men like those who took opposite views, our opinions commenced to change. Then we had the experience of foreign countries, and we found out how well they were getting on under protection with their system of special bounties, and so on, and some of us harped back to the days when the Irish Parliament gave bounties to advance special industries, so on account of that, we came to be changed in our original opinions. Then, on the other side of the Channel, labour went bald-headed for free trade, and it will be in the recollection of the Seanad that a few years ago a leading English statesman endeavoured to direct his country into the channel of colonial preference, and that endeavour reacted rather disastrously upon the party for which he spoke. So far as this country is concerned I have not made up my mind, and I do not think any one can make up his mind until we have a settled Government in the country, or until we have a year or two years' practice in the operation of our fiscal laws, and the experience of the treatment we are to receive from our nearest neighbours, both north and east. I do not know that we can help our friend and colleague in relation to this resolution. He is anxious, as we all are, to encourage Irish industry. For many years when I had a wardrobe it was all of Irish manufacture. We are all anxious to encourage Irish industry, and particularly to encourage the very splendid effort made by Mr. Ford to establish an Irish motor factory in Cork. I do not know whether Mr. Ford is hampered under the present arrangement. Personally, I have not the remotest idea of what the present arrangements are. I have not the smallest idea of what the import or the export duties are, who imposes those duties, or who receives them. I have not yet heard that our Government is looking forward to receiving financial assistance from duties on imports. I should be very glad to hear it was receiving assistance in that respect. But I have not yet heard anything about it. If there are to be import duties I should like to be informed about them, and if there are to be export duties I should also like to know of them. In fact, if we have reached the stage when we can discuss in a practical manner these questions, we shall naturally ask the Government to lay papers upon the Table of this Seanad in order that we may know where we are. We have not got to that stage so far. I understand, of course, for the present there must be some kind of Customs barriers between ourselves and our Northern brethren. I do not know whether that would be duties levied on exports to or imports from them all. I do not think that follows. I know nothing whatever about it. As far as convenience goes I am quite certain our Government would like to spare everybody any inconvenience if it would be possible. and to the extent of the inconvenience I would be willing to support the honourable Senator, but if we are to raise the question of reciprocity so early as this. I do not think the Seanad can commit itself one way or the other. I agree with Senator Douglas that our friend opposite has done very well in raising this question. We have discussed it, and I think that for the moment he has attained his purpose by ventilating the subject as he has done.
Senator Haughton must have understood from the remarks of the Senators who have just spoken that the words of his resolution have gone far beyond what, judging from his speech, we know he has really in mind. Irish manufacturers know it. Anybody in Cork knows also. He sees an industry, which is at present being conducted in Cork greatly for the benefit of the working classes there, and everybody concerned, in great risk of having a large part of its business cut off—that is, the export of goods from Cork into Great Britain. That is the danger he is concerned with, because undoubtedly the Cork industry can carry on business in the Free State as well as ever it did. Messrs. Ford can only be afraid that they will not be able to carry on their business of exporting from Cork as well as before, and probably they will have to establish a great industry across-Channel, so that in England or Northern Ireland only will the Cork industry be cut down. That is probably what Messrs. Ford are foreseeing. There are a great many industries—some of them have been brought to the notice of the President and other members of the Government—where, because of our becoming now a Colony when we were before a part of the United Kingdom, the duties against goods imported from the Free State automatically come in under existing arrangements. We cannot at present avoid those things. If an industry is hit in that way, and knows that it will have to take part of its factory and send it over to Great Britain, it will undoubtedly have a good case to come to the Government with, and I have not the slightest doubt but that it will get the most sympathetic hearing. If there are any possibilities of avoiding such a state of affairs, it is to the interest of the Government to do so, and I have no doubt but that it will be done. To ask them, however, to interfere with the duties because a few industries may have to go would be going too far for us, and we must see that. The upshot of what we are saying here should be that every manufacturer in the Free State who knows that the duties put against him by importing his goods into Great Britain is going to cut down his factories very largely, and probably that he will have to go across water and establish a factory on the other side for manufacturing—that gentleman should lay his case before the Government, and I have no doubt it will be seriously considered. I think that is as far as the Seanad should go.
I feel grateful for the way the matter has been received. Of course, I was thinking of Ford's works primarily, but I was also thinking of other industries in the country, some of which Senator Jameson himself is connected with. I do not wish to press the matter further at the moment, but I hope that something satisfactory will ultimately be arrived at.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.