I do not know whether this matter I am about to refer to has been arranged. We had a discussion about it the other day. It is that when there is a show of hands the numbers, not necessarily the names, should be supplied in the account of the proceedings. When the names are called they are, of course, put in, but when there is a show of hands I think it should be arranged that the numbers should be put in.
STANDING ORDERS—(CONTINUED)
Standing Orders Nos. 33 and 34 agreed.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
It would be very difficult, in fact I do not know of any assembly in which it is done.
I mean the numbers only. I think you raised that yourself the other day.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
I think there ought be no difficulty about the numbers. That need not be put in as an amendment. I will give a direction that that shall be done.
Numbers 35 to 38, inclusive, agreed.
39. Bills not considered by the Seanad sitting in Committee may be referred to Select Committees, appointed from time to time for that purpose, and the provisions of the preceding Order shall not apply to a motion by way of amendment or otherwise that a Bill be considered by a Select Committee.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
No. 39 is one that, I think, should be put in in the form in which it now stands in order to direct the attention of the Seanad to the distinction between Special and Select Committees, a Select Committee to be a Committee to which the Seanad would refer a Bill in preference to referring it to a Committee of the Whole House, and I thought it a convenient thing that the word "Select" should be confined in its use throughout these Orders to a Committee of that kind, other Committees to be called "Special Committees," so that the Seanad will understand that wherever the expression "Select Committee" occurs it means a Committee less than that of the whole House, to whose consideration a Bill has been referred.
Would it be wise to put in a definition describing what a Select Committee is?
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Well, if it is only used, as it is only used, in these Standing Orders, in connection with that one matter, I do not think it is necessary.
Numbers 39, 40 and 41 agreed.
42. At the commencement of each Session a Committee of Selection, consisting of eight Senators, elected by the Seanad voting in accordance with the principles of Proportional Representation, shall be appointed, whose duty it shall be to select the Senators to serve on all Committees other than a Committee of the Seanad, in the absence of express directions as to the personnel thereof from the Seanad itself. The Leas-Chathaoirleach shall be ex-officio Chairman of this Committee, but shall not exercise any but a casting vote.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
That, I do not think, was ever considered by the Seanad, but it is really only a formal matter, and therefore I do not imagine the Seanad would wish to discuss it.
Numbers 42 to 45, inclusive, agreed to.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Standing Order 46, I think, is new, but it is purely for convenience and business purposes. It is not open, I think, to any question.
Standing Orders 46 and 47 agreed.
48. Messages from the Seanad to the Dáil shall be in writing, signed by the Clerk or Assistant Clerk, and shall be conveyed from the Seanad to the Dáil by one of the Clerks.
49. If an official messenger bearing a message from the Dáil is in attendance while the Seanad is sitting, the Cathaoirleach shall permit the messenger to enter and present his message to the Clerk at the table. The messenger shall thereupon withdraw. When the Seanad is not sitting messages from the Dáil shall be received by the Clerk.
50. The Cathaoirleach shall at the first convenient opportunity during the sitting in which it is received communicate the message to the Seanad; provided that in case of special urgency any business in progress on the receipt of such message may be interrupted to hear the same.
51. If a message from the Dáil requires any action to be taken by the Seanad, it shall be set down on the Orders of the Day for the next sitting, and shall be considered accordingly; provided that in case of special urgency the Seanad may consider such message at an earlier period.
52. The time of Joint Sittings of both Houses shall be arranged by the Cathaoirleach and the Ceann Comhairle in consultation.
53. The Cathaoirleach shall summon the Senators to attend such Joint Sittings.
54. The place of meeting of every such Joint Sitting shall be the Chamber of the Dáil.
55. The Chairman of a Joint Sitting of both Houses shall be the Ceann Comhairle, and in his absence the Cathaoirleach; in the absence of both, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and in the absence of all three the Leas-Chathaoirleach. The proceedings of every such Joint Sitting shall be governed by the Standing Orders of the Dáil, in so far as they may be applicable to such Joint Sitting, and every question of the applicability of any Standing Order, or the adaptation thereof, necessary or expedient for its application, shall be determined and ruled upon by the Chairman.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Nos. 48 to 56 are new. They deal with the interchange of communications between the two Houses, and they formed the subject matter of very careful consideration on the part of the Committee. We only arrived at them after interviews with the Speaker and members of the Standing Committee of the Dáil.
Numbers 48 to 55, inclusive, agreed.
56. When it is desired to obtain the concurrence of the Dáil in setting up a Joint Committee of the two Houses, a Senator shall move: "That in the opinion of the Seanad it is expedient that a Joint Committee of both Houses be appointed to ... and that a message be sent to the Dáil to inform that House of this Resolution.” When a Resolution asking for a Joint Committee is moved, the number of Senators the Seanad will appoint shall be stated, but the names of Senators to serve on it shall not be proposed until a message is received from the Dáil agreeing to the Joint Committee. The Seanad shall fix the quorum of its members who shall be present to constitute a sitting of a Joint Committee. Subject to this a Joint Committee shall fix its own quorum.
Portion of 56 reads: "The Seanad shall fix the quorum of its members who shall be present to constitute a sitting of a Joint Committee. Subject to this a Joint Committee shall fix its own quorum." Unless the quorum appointed by the Seanad of its own members is present at a Joint Committee meeting, can the Committee proceed?
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
The Committee will be able to proceed provided there is a quorum sufficient to constitute a quorum as fixed by the Joint Committee; otherwise not.
Then that might mean that all the members appointed by the Dáil might be there and possibly only one of our members, and that would constitute a quorum of the Committee.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
That would be the fault of our members.
You specify here that the Seanad shall fix the quorum of its members who shall be present, but, supposing that quorum is not present and that all the members on the other side are present and form a quorum of themselves, can the Committee then proceed?
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Perhaps the word "shall" is not quite accurate. I think what the Committee had in mind in framing this was that the Seanad should fix the quorum as to the number who ought to attend; that there ought to be that minimum of those appointed who would attend. Of course, we cannot compel them to attend.
Shall we alter the word "shall" to "may"?
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
"Whose duty it shall be." Perhaps; but I would be inclined to leave it as it is, for if any member found he was not able to attend he could intimate that, and someone could be appointed in his place.
I want to make it clear. Can a Committee proceed in the absence of a quorum from the Seanad—that is, the quorum that we say must be present?
Is it not possible under the terms of this Order that the regulation might lead to a certain amount of friction between members of the Seanad and members of the Dáil who are on the Committee? If one or other of these bodies deliberately refrains from attending, it might render the whole proceedings nugatory.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
I think there is a good deal of force in the criticisms, and that possibly the best thing to do would be to omit the last four lines of that Rule 56, and to arrange with the Committee on Standing Orders in the Dáil that in fixing a quorum for a Joint Committee there should be an equal number of both Houses, and unless that equal number was present from both Houses that the Committee should not sit.
At least an equal number.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
At least an equal number. I think it is plain that friction and difficulties might arise in the construction of this proposal as it appears in the paper. Therefore, Senator Kenny, if you will move that the last four lines of Rule 56 be omitted, with the suggestion that the Committee should further consider it, I think that would be the best way out of it.
Or would it be better to refer the whole Section back, and then we would be able to put it in the complete shape?
Rule 56 referred back to Standing Committee.
No. 57. The Captain of the Guard or his principal Lieutenant shall attend in the Seanad during the sittings of the House, and, while attending there, such officer shall be subject to the control of the Cathaoirleach. He shall admit none but authorised visitors within the precincts of the House, and he shall preserve order and decorum against them while present. He shall take into custody persons irregularly admitted into the Seanad, and persons guilty of disorderly conduct, and shall cause the removal of persons who have been directed to withdraw; and he shall be responsible to the Cathaoirleach for the internal safety of the buildings of the Seanad, and for this purpose shall supervise the lighting and other apparatus, and shall take all such other precautions as he may be directed to take, or as he may consider to be necessary.
There is a very trivial thing in connection with this I wish to draw attention to. You appoint a Captain of the Guard here, who is, presumably, a commissioned officer, to be your lamplighter as well. I think it is a little undignified.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
No; he is not to be our lamplighter. He is to supervise the lighting.
That is the same thing.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
That means if the lamplighter fails to do his duty he is to hold him up.
If that is all it means I do not object to it. It reads oddly that the Captain of the Guard should supervise lighting and other matters.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Supervision is only to be limited to the purpose of seeing that there is no danger to the buildings.
Then you would assume that he is a competent electrician in addition to his other qualifications. I think there must be some other body, such as the Board of Works, who would look after these things instead of the Captain of the Guard.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
The Board of Works might look after it when a defect has occurred, and then it might be too late.
Nos. 57 to 62, inclusive, agreed.
No. 63. All proceedings shall be noted by the Clerk, and shall constitute the Journals of the Seanad, and shall be signed by the Cathaoirleach. Copies of the Journal shall be printed and distributed to all Senators.
These things have never been up to date.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
The only reason I am going through these so rapidly is that they are purely formal. If there was anything in them that could possibly admit of discussion, or give the slightest loophole for it, I would not hasten through them.
I am not questioning the pace you are going at at all. I do not know how we are to get it. We were to get the report of speeches made here the next day. That has never been done or anything like it. It is perhaps a week or a fortnight before we get them.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
I think we will improve all these things as we go along. This is in anticipation.
Colonel Moore
All right. If it can be done, so much the better.
Nos. 63 to 69, inclusive, agreed.
No. 70. When a Bill is to be originated in the Seanad, a copy thereof, authorised by the signatures of not less than three or more than six Senators as proposers, shall be handed to the Clerk, and its title, and a short description of its purpose, prepared by the proposers and accepted by the Cathaoirleach, shall appear on the Orders of the Day. The Senator whose name shall appear as first signatory on the said copy shall be deemed to be the Senator giving notice of the Bill, and shall move for leave to introduce the Bill. This motion shall be decided without amendment or debate. If leave to introduce the Bill is granted, such Bill shall be printed and sent to all Senators.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
This is new, in so far as it requires on the introduction of a Bill originated in this House the verification of at least three Senators who will sign it as proposers.
Nos. 70 to 81, inclusive, agreed.
No. 82. In the case of a Government Bill the motion for its Second Reading, for its reference to a Committee, for the consideration in Committee of the preamble and sections of the Bill, for considering the Bill on Report or for the passing of the Bill, shall not require to be proposed or seconded, but shall be put from the Chair.
I should like to have entered here that, except in urgent cases and after a motion to suspend Standing Orders has been passed, not more than one stage of a Bill may be taken on any one day. I think this is very important, that after the First Reading of a Bill Senators should have time to consider the matter, and make any amendments that may be considered necessary for the Committee Stage. I think hitherto—indeed I know a good many Senators have complained about the matter—that we have been going at too great a pace, and that we are rushing through things, and in fact the comic papers have made some remarks about it. We might wait a little and give ourselves time to consider what amendments ought to be made, and not rush Bills through too fast.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Are you proposing any amendment?
I am proposing that when a Bill be entered upon, except in urgent cases and that a motion to suspend Standing Orders has been passed, not more than one stage of a Bill may be taken on any one day.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
If you merely put in the words "not more than one stage of any Bill shall be taken on any one day" that would be enough. That would be part of the Standing Orders, and unless the Standing Orders were suspended that would apply.
I am satisfied.
I think that would work out highly inconvenient to some of us who live at a distance. It would necessitate some of us staying in Dublin longer than would be convenient very frequently, and I rather object to that.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
I think that prima facie it is highly desirable there should be an interval between these Stages, and I, on the other hand, see that there might be a Bill which it would be greatly to the convenience of country members to get through quickly —but that would be the time to move as regards that Bill that the Standing Orders be suspended. I think that would meet your difficulty, so that if the Seanad agrees with the views of Senator Colonel Moore we would add to the end of 82 the words “that not more than one Stage of any Bill be taken on the same day.”
I think your solution of the difficulty is the right one. It may conceivably be the case that a non-contentious measure can be passed through. Of course in that case we can suspend the Standing Orders. It would be much better that this House should have proper time to make amendments. If the Bill is of no importance, or non-contentious, we can suspend the Standing Orders and pass it at once, but in the ordinary case the general principle, I think, should be adhered to, and we should only take one stage of the Bill at a sitting.
Amendment agreed to.
Order 82, as amended, agreed.
Order 83 agreed.
Order 84:—"Senators may, at any time after a Bill has been introduced into the Dáil, notify the Cathaoirleach in writing that in their opinion the Bill is not a Money Bill. Should the Bill be received by the Seanad certified by the Ceann Comhairle of the Dáil as a Money Bill the Cathaoirleach shall, should he have received notices in writing from two-fifths of the Senators, notify the Ceann Comhairle that a Committee of Privileges is demanded under Article 35 of the Constitution.
"The Cathaoirleach shall thereupon cause a motion to be placed on the Orders of the Day, for the first convenient day, to elect three Senators to serve on the Committee of Privileges."
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
This is, I think, a new Order. It has to deal with a case in which Senators wish to challenge the certificate of the Speaker certifying that a Bill is a Money Bill.
Order agreed.
Orders 85 to 91, inclusive, agreed.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
The next Standing Order is number 92, as follows:—
"The following motions may be made without notice:—
(a) A motion to suspend consideration of the Orders of the Day in accordance with Standing Order 14.
(b) A motion to suspend a member from the service of the Seanad or from a Committee.
(c) A motion fixing the number and quorum and appointing the Cathaoirleach of a Select Committee to consider a Bill which has passed its Second Reading.
(d) A motion that a Senator shall preside, in the absence of the Cathaoir leach, Leas-Chathaoirleach and Senators appointed as a panel under Order No. 3 supra. Such a motion shall not be debated.
(e) A motion by permission of the Cathaoirleach that the Seanad adjourn for a period not exceeding two hours.
I move the following amendment: "To add a new Section (f) as follows:—
"(f) A motion to suspend Standing Orders, which motion shall require the assent of two-thirds of the Senators present and voting.”
The addition Senator Moore has suggested in Number 82 nearly meets the position which I intended to bring about. The object is to prevent rushing the different Stages. It might be well if the Seanad adopted this amendment also. It stipulates that two-thirds be required to suspend Standing Orders.
I think this is a reasonable proposal. It was an omission from the Orders which we should have put in, but I think the amendment should come in after "A."
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
I quite agree.
Amendment agreed to.
Order 92, as amended, agreed.
Orders 93 to 101, inclusive, agreed.
Order 102. In all cases under these Orders in which the ballot has been taken as between two candidates only, the Cathaoirleach, in the event of an equality of votes, may exercise his cating vote or in his discretion submit the names to a further ballot; but should an equality of votes again result, the Cathaoirleach shall exercise his casting vote.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
This is a new Order, and was put in at the suggestion of Senator Sir J. Keane for the purpose of dealing with cases in which there is an equality of votes. Prima facie under the Constitution the Chairman would then exercise his casting vote, but it was the opinion that that might, perhaps, be in some cases an invidious matter for the Chairman to do, as he would have to de cide between two candidates, and it was thought to be preferable to give the Seanad the opportunity of relieving him from that position by taking a second vote. If, on the second vote, there was again an equality, there should be no option but that he should exercise his casting vote. That is the object of the new clause.
Orders Nos. 102, 103, and 104 agreed.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
I should have mentioned, in regard to Standing Order 22, that there had been no provision up to then in our Standing Orders for moving the previous question. That is a very clumsy and archaic method for dealing with the matter, and it would take six or seven additional Orders to explain that operation. We propose, instead of that, that the form should be that the Seanad do pass on to its next business, or that the matter be adjourned sine die or to a day to be definitely fixed. These are simple, intelligible forms, and are, I think, preferable to the previous question. I mention them because they are introduced for the first time.