Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 May 1923

Vol. 1 No. 22

DAMAGE TO PROPERTY (COMPENSATION) BILL, 1923.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I see the Minister is in attendance here now, so we will postpone the further consideration of Standing Orders and resume it when we have disposed of the Damage to Property Bill. The Seanad may recollect that when this Bill was in Committee under consideration here, certain amendments were inserted, some of them on the motion of the Minister in charge of the Bill and others on the motion of Senators. As regards some of them, it was stated at the time that, while accepting the amendment, the form of it might perhaps require adjustment, and I think to that is to be attributed the fact that these amendments have come back with certain amendments made to them in the Dáil. We have now to consider these amendments made in the Dáil.

The first amendment is as follows:— Section 10, Sub-Section (1) (ii.). To delete all the words after the word "that" in line 1, and to insert instead thereof the words:—

"Whenever a partial re-instatement condition is attached to a decree, the person by whom such condition is to be performed may, at any time within three months after the date of the decree, submit to the Judge a Scheme for the application of the compensation to which the condition is attached in or towards the erection of a building or buildings of a residential character at any specified place in Saorstát Éireann in lieu of the substituted building specified in the decree, and if the Judge is satisfied that the building or buildings specified in such Scheme will be suitable to the neighbourhood in which it is proposed to erect the same, and that there is a demand in that neighbourhood for buildings of that character, the Judge shall amend the partial re-instatement condition attached to his decree by substituting therein the building or buildings specified in such Scheme for the substituted building originally specified in the decree."

MINISTER for LOCAL GOVERNMENT (Mr. Ernest Blythe)

This amendment is purely a verbal one. Sir John Keane proposed an amendment which I accepted to this effect. On looking over it, we thought that there was some ambiguity in the wording. This is our draft of Sir John Keane's amendment, as adopted in the Dáil, with the intention of making the matter more clear, but there is no change whatever in substance or intention.

Sir JOHN KEANE

I have looked through this, as I was the original proposer of the amendment. I spoke to the Minister this morning about the term "residence," and I inquired whether any dwelling-house, however humble, is a legal residence. I understand that the Law Officer is satisfied that it is, and if so I am satisfied.

Amendment agreed to.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

The next amendment is "Section 10, Sub-Section (2), (3) and (4) in paragraph (a), to insert after the word "street" the words "commonly known as O'Connell Street." This seems to be a purely formal amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

The next amendment is as follows:— Section 13, Sub-Section 6. To delete all the words after the word "security," and to insert instead thereof the words:—

"shall, subject to such conditions as shall be prescribed by the Minister for Finance, be accepted at its nominal face value in payment of all duties payable to the Revenue Commissioners of Saorstát Éireann, by or in respect of the death of the person to whom such security was issued, or in respect of the death of any subsequent holder who had been the registered holder of such security for not less than twelve months previous to his death."

Mr. BLYTHE

This is an amendment of some substance. The section was adopted in the Seanad making it possible for these Bonds to be tendered in payment of death duties without any restriction. The matter was considered in the Dáil, and this amendment was adopted. The object is to allow them to be tendered to the Revenue Commissioners in respect of death duties when those death duties arise in respect of the death of the original holder, or of the subsequent holder, who has been the registered holder for not less than twelve months before his death. I understand that this proposal is on the lines adopted in certain British securities. The matter is felt by the Minister for Finance to be one of some little importance, because even if there was only to be a very slight depreciation in the value of these securities it might lead to very large quantities of them being tendered in payment of death duties. The actual amount gained by people tendering them might be very little if the security depreciated to 2 per cent. They might depreciate if they were the best securities possible, owing to large quantities being put on the market, and our idea is to do everything reasonable to see that the securities do not depreciate. Market conditions might cause depreciation, apart from the value and type of securities. If these securities were to depreciate to 2 or 3 per cent., that might lead to their being acquired for the purpose of being tendered in payment of death duties.

The Revenue receives about £1,000,000 per annum from death duties, and it would be a serious thing, from the Exchequer point of view, if, instead of cash for £1,000,000 we received securities. It would mean that the Minister for Finance would have to go into the market and borrow £1,000,000. It was felt by the Dáil that no hardship would be imposed, provided that a person who bought securities twelve months previously could go and tender them in payment of death duties, and also that the original holder could tender them at any time. The provision in the beginning of the amendment about being subject to such conditions as shall be prescribed by the Minister for Finance has, I understand, something to do with the method of tendering, and it is purely a matter of form. There is no hidden snag in it. Somebody suggested there was. I have not got a copy of the British provisions by me, but this has been drafted entirely along the lines adopted in the provisions of British securities. We thought that we might be doing as much as could be expected if we did as well as the British Treasury in the matter.

Mr. JAMESON

I beg to move: "To insert after the word ‘shall,' where first occurring, the words, ‘be made capable of registration and.'" This is the first time in the Bill that registration has been made a qualification for those bonds, and it would be possible for the Minister for Finance to make this amendment null and void in its effect by merely issuing bonds which were not capable of registration. The words I suggest be put in are that the bonds shall be made capable of registration which are issued in payment for these claims. Therefore, all the bonds that will be issued will be purchasable, can be registered by the purchaser, and can be used in payment of Death Duties. As regards what the Minister was saying about bonds introduced, and about such conditions as can be prescribed by the Minister for Finance, they are introduced to make Sections 6 and 7 run together. The Minister for Finance may create such securities bearing such interest, and subject to such conditions as he shall think fit. As this comes before Sub-section 7, I think that is why they are introduced. They are perfectly correct, therefore. I think the Government's suggestion is reasonable. I think all bonds should be capable of being registered and therefore applicable to the benefits of the clause.

Mr. GUINNESS

I take it that if even one word is introduced into the clause it will be necessary for the Bill to go back to the Dáil. If we got an undertaking from the Minister that the registration of the bonds would be considered by him, it would simplify matters, and obviate that.

Mr. BLYTHE

I can undertake to the Seanad that the necessary measures will be taken by the Minister for Finance to make it possible that all bonds issued in this way shall be tenderable for payment of Death Duties. I am not sure whether the amendment proposed by the Senator would stand, but I can give an undertaking that what he desires shall be done.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

What I understand is that the Minister in attendance has given an undertaking that one of the conditions on which those bonds will be accepted is that they are bonds capable of registration. That solves the difficulty Senator Jameson is anxious about, and also gets rid of the necessity of having this Bill returned to the Dáil.

Mr. JAMESON

This thing is going to run for years. I wonder if any Minister for Finance will consider he is bound by this? The Dáil is sitting. Senator Guinness thinks it is going to be a troublesome matter to have the Bill go back again to it, but I would ask the Minister if it were not much better to get the amendment formally accepted, and ratified by the Dáil.

Mr. BLYTHE

I am afraid that the amendment proposed by Senator Jameson hardly achieves what he desires. It makes the Section run in such a way that "compensation is capable of registration." I think the intention is that the bonds shall be made capable of registration.

Sir JOHN KEANE

Sub-section 7 says "The Minister for Finance may, for the purpose of the foregoing Sub-section, by order, create such securities, bearing such rate of interest, and subject to such conditions as to repayment, redemption or otherwise as he shall think fit." It is under that Section that capability of registration can be established, because every order made by the Minister for Finance under this Sub-section shall forthwith be laid before each House of the Oireachtas. It is laid on the Table, and if it is not objected to, it goes through.

Mr. GUINNESS

Inferentially it is in the clause. The Minister contemplated the bonds should be registered in framing it.

Mr. JAMESON

It is perfectly clear what the Minister means to do, but he can issue bonds which will not be capable of registration. If he did so, the second part of the clause is not worth anything. This is to make it perfectly clear that all the bonds in payment of these claims must be capable of registration. I put my amendment in the wrong place. If the Minister agrees to put it in the right place, the whole thing would be finished in two minutes.

Mr. BLYTHE

If the words were put in here, we can have them looked at and altered if necessary in the Dáil, and then come back here again. It is simply a question of putting in a form of words to achieve this object.

Sir THOMAS ESMONDE

There is this point: British securities which are acceptable for estate duties are in some cases "inscribed" and in other cases "to bearer." If this amendment is put in, it may conceivably be that bearer bonds will not be accepted in payment of death duties. In England bonds were either "to bearer" or "inscribed."

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Senator Jameson's amendment should come in the same sub-section after the words "security or securities capable of registration."

Mr. JAMESON

All securities issued under this Clause shall be capable of registration.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

That comes to the same thing. Would it not be simpler to say "issued to the applicant or other person aforesaid of a security or securities created under this Section, capable of registration"?

Mr. JAMESON

That is right.

Sir T. ESMONDE

I think it would be much better to let the words stand as they are, and if that is so I do not think bearer bonds can be excluded. There would be danger of excluding bearer bonds if these words were put in.

Mr. JAMESON

I think that is quite wrong. Bearer bonds should be capable of registration at the wish of the holder. Bearer bonds issued without any right of registration cannot be registered.

Sir THOMAS ESMONDE

Of course they can.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

This is not in order. We cannot have this discussion between members of the Seanad. You wish to move your amendment, Senator Jameson, in a different place, putting it in after the words "under this Section"?

Mr. JAMESON

I do.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

It would run then, "of a security or securities created under this Section and capable of registration." Perhaps it is a little inconvenient for the Minister on whom this matter has been sprung to give a definite answer now. The Seanad will be sitting for another hour, and perhaps the Minister would like to consult the Minister for Finance. If so, he could mention it later on.

Mr. BLYTHE

I will do that.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

The next amendment is in Section 22 — To insert after the word "inquiry" the words "in respect of an injury." It appears to be a formal amendment.

Amendment put and agreed to.

Further consideration of Bill adjourned.