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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Jul 1925

Vol. 5 No. 14

ELECTORAL (SEANAD ELECTIONS) BILL, 1925—REPORT STAGE.

I would like to ask the Senator who advocated the amendment made yesterday and those Senators who voted for it, to relent in the matter. A good many Senators thought that the amendment, if it was not a positive improvement to the Bill, at any rate could do very little harm, inasmuch as it seemed, on the face of it, to be simply of a permissive character. I am not quite sure—I have not had an opportunity of getting advice upon it—that it is simply a permissive amendment. I am not sure that the words "the Minister may make regulations" would not be read and interpreted as equivalent to definite instructions to make such regulations, and the more so, as in portion of the amendment you have the insertion of the words lower down, "the Minister may, if he thinks fit."

If Senators have a copy of the amendment before them they will see what I mean. The amendment starts with: "To insert a new section:—The Minister may make rules under the Act prescribing the manner," and so on. Then in paragraph 3 of the amendment you have the formula: "The Minister may, if he thinks fit, by rules made pursuant to this section, prescribe" certain things. It is at least possible, I think, that the amendment, as a whole, would put on the Minister, who in this case is the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, the duty of making rules on this subject. The Minister has no desire to make rules. He has not the faintest idea of what kind of rules could be made to meet the particular kind of difficulties that were suggested here yesterday. His view, and the view of his Department, is that the provisions dealing with the illiterate voter contained in the Electoral Act of 1923 are adequate, or, if not adequate, are not capable of any improvement calculated to meet any more fully that problem of the illiterate voter. I quite admit that the illiterate voter, coming in to make his selection from a Panel of 75 names, constitutes a problem, and I would be prepared to admit it would constitute a problem that might mean obstruction in the booth, and a difficulty on the part of other voters from registering their votes. But the Electoral Act of 1923 envisages that possibility and made provision against it. It provides that for four hours before the closing of the booth, the presiding officer may refuse to give his assistance to the illiterate voters if, in his opinion, it constitutes any substantial obstruction to the proper flow of business in the booth and the giving of proper facilities to other electors to record their wishes. If I am right—and speaking purely as a layman and without any opportunity of getting advice in the meantime—that this amendment might put a duty on the Minister to make rules, and if the considered view of the Minister and his Department is that he does not consider rules necessary, and that he would be completely at a loss to know what rules to make to meet the point of view that was expressed here yesterday, then I suggest to the Senator that he would perhaps reconsider his attitude and agree to the deletion of this amendment.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

The difficulty about the first part may be met by inserting after "may""if he thinks fit," in the opening words of the section. On the other hand, if the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, whose duty it would be, and who would have the discretion thereby cast upon him, to frame these rules, has already made up his mind that they are not required, then, of course, this amendment of Senator de Loughry's would be a dead letter.

I think I might as well be candid with the Seanad. If these words are inserted, "if he thinks fit," and if I am wrong and if this amendment is purely permissive, then no rules would be made because the Minister and his advisers would not consider them necessary.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

It would become a dead letter.

All I want to achieve is that the work at the booth shall not be made inoperative by the number of illiterate voters coming in. Whatever the rules are, I know that the practice is that the presiding officer considers it is his obligation to read out the names on the ballot paper to the illiterate voters. If I have an assurance that instructions will be given to the presiding officer that he need not go through that formula of reading out the entire ballot paper I will be satisfied. The illiterate voter usually has his mind made up, and he comes in and says: "I want to vote 1 for so and so, 2 for so and so," and so on. If instructions will be given that that will be accepted, I am satisfied. But I know that when the illiterate voters come in with their minds made up they are often confused by the presiding officer insisting on reading out the full list of names on the ballot paper. I do not want to insist on this amendment. All I want is to ensure that there will be no obstruction at the booth to the other voters who come in to record their votes.

I very readily give that undertaking, that the attention of the presiding officers in these elections will be drawn, first of all, to the clear provision in the Electoral Act of 1923, that this assistance to the illiterate voters must not be exercised at the expense of causing obstruction to business in the booth, or any difficulty to other voters in recording their wishes. Generally I will undertake that very clear instructions on this matter will be issued, and I am authorised to give that undertaking on behalf of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health.

I quite accept the Minister's undertaking.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

To regularise this matter you will have to hand me in a Government amendment to delete the amendment proposed yesterday.

If Senator de Loughry will move such an amendment I will second it. It could not be a Government amendment.

Owing to the undertaking given by the Minister, I beg to move that the amendment be deleted. That is all I wanted to achieve.

I second the deletion of the amendment carried in Committee.

Question—"That the new section inserted in Committee before Section 6 be deleted"—put and agreed to.

I move that the Standing Orders be suspended to enable this Bill and the Constitution (Amendment No. 1) Bill, 1925, to be received for final consideration.

I second that.

Question put and agreed to.
Question —"That the Electoral (Seanad Elections) Bill, 1925, and the Constitution (Amendment No. 1) Bill, 1925, be received for final consideration and do now pass"—put and agreed to.
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