Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Jan 1926

Vol. 6 No. 7

FOOD PRICES TRIBUNAL. - MOTION BY SENATOR DOUGLAS.

Mr. DOUGLAS

I beg to move:—

"That it is expedient that a Tribunal be established for inquiring into a definite matter of urgent public importance, that is to say, the retail prices (and wholesale prices if necessary) of articles of general consumption and practical methods of effecting reductions therein, with special regard to the difference between the prices received by producers or importers and the prices paid by consumers."

This resolution is identical with one that was passed in the other House. It is moved by me at the request of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, and I confess that I move it with a certain amount of diffidence, because I am not a great enthusiast for the appointment of commissions. It was only when I read the Minister's own speech when moving it in the Dáil that I came to the conclusion that, at any rate, I could approve of the resolution as much as he did in his original speech. I am inclined to think that there has been so much talk about prices, some of it justified and a great deal of it misleading and unjustifiable, that in the main it would be a good thing to have a Commission which will sit in public and hear evidence and get out a certain number of facts with regard to the price of commodities here. The resolution provides that the Commission is to make practical suggestions for the reduction of prices. Now, I have no objection in asking them to do so, but I do not wish to be taken as one of those who really believe that the Commission can effectually reduce prices.

At the same time, in view of the promise of the Government, and in view of the fact that in the main I believe it will be a good thing to have the matter brought into public—that there should be a place where various charges could be made and answered as distinct from various paragraphs in the Press and hints in various speeches or notes in party propaganda—I think we will be wise in concurring with the Dáil in passing this resolution. The position is this. The resolution does not appoint a tribunal, but it gives power to the Minister to appoint one. That is, if both Houses pass a resolution in this or in similar terms, the Minister has then power to appoint a tribunal and set out its terms of reference generally within the terms of the resolution itself. Personally, on the whole, I am inclined to agree, particularly when the Chairman is an able, experienced man, that it is better to give pretty wide powers in the terms of reference rather than to try in the actual order made by the Minister, to define too definitely the lines on which the Commission should work. I do not think I need say anything more except to say this, as an instance of what is in my mind. I do believe it will do good in other instances. There was evidence that the loaf in London, which is decidedly cheaper than the loaf in Dublin, is not the same loaf. We can discover whether it is not, or whether there is an explanation of that, and then whether it is desirable, contrariwise, that we should have a somewhat reduced loaf. I give this illustration of a matter that the Tribunal might be instrumental in setting right.

CATHAOIRLEACH

Is there any significance in the use of the word "Tribunal"?

Mr. DOUGLAS

I think the significance is, that there is a provision in the Act by which the Minister can make an order appointing a "Tribunal."

Sir NUGENT EVERARD

As President of the Federation of Irish Industries a good many cases have come under my notice in which tariffs have been blamed for higher prices. In many of the cases there was no increase whatever since the imposition of tariffs. The wholesale prices remain the same. There is very great need that profiteering on the part of retailers should be checked in some way, and I cannot see a better way than by an inquiry. Wholesale prices can be easily ascertained, and we know what the legitimate profit of the retailer should be, and what it was before tariffs were imposed.

Sir JOHN KEANE

I hope that the Commission will consider evidence from all possible quarters and see where the blame lies. I suggest that the Government itself is by no means free from blame in this matter. The statistical tax of 6d. or whatever it is which has to be paid on parcels, certainly has had the effect of narrowing the purchasing market for the consumer. It was easy from advertisements to buy goods in any market without restriction, and before this tax there was a wider market and much keener competition than there is at present. That is a point I hope will not be overlooked. Profiteering must be considered, and although the margin may be high between the wholesaler and the retailer the enormous overhead charges thrown on the retailer by heavy burdens, such as rates, and the amounts which have to be paid to the sheltered trades in this country, must be considered. Although the margin may appear high the charges that are thrown on the distributors, owing to rates and the monopoly of the sheltered trades is a very heavy item.

Mr. O'ROURKE

I support the motion, but I think it should go a little further and consider the question of labour costs. It is not enough to go into the retail and wholesale prices. The question is why is an article produced in this country more expensive than the same article produced in England, Scotland or Northern Ireland? Senator Douglas referred to the price of the loaf. Bakers in Dublin get 94/- a week while those in London get 60/-. In Dublin a baker produces thirteen sacks of flour as against 22 in London. Why is that? Why is it necessary for the Dublin baker to get more than the London baker? In addition, wages and conditions are different in Dublin and London. In Dublin the man who cleans the oven and carries out the bread gets 94/-, while in London the man who does that is regarded as unskilled and gets 35/- a week. As a result the cost of living here is considerably higher than in London, and that is due to excessive labour charges. In the district that I come from, close to the border of Northern Ireland, it is all Belfast bread that is sold there. In Monaghan, Cavan and Louth at least half the bread sold is Belfast bread. The Belfast baker works for 72/- a week and produces bread from 22 sacks of flour. If the Dublin baker was working under the same conditions the bread that goes to the counties I have mentioned would be produced and distributed from Dublin. Bakers here would be employed supplying Monaghan, Cavan and Louth, and they would be paying taxes that would go to the Saorstát instead of to the Northern Government. These things have a considerable effect on the cost of living, and I suggest that the words "the labour costs of producing such articles" should be added to the resolution or included in the terms of reference.

CATHAOIRLEACH

The only objection is that this is an identical resolution to that passed in the Dáil.

Mr. O'ROURKE

Perhaps the terms of reference could include these words.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I think the terms of reference are amply wide to do so. That is only my opinion. The difficulty of altering the motion is that if you amend it you are imposing on the Dáil the necessity of passing another resolution.

Mr. FANNING

I raise no objection to the form of the motion or to any other motion, but I do protest against the form in which it is worded. Why begin at the bottom? If you are going to have a true and comprehensive Commission to inquire into all these things, with the possibility of it being of some use eventually, begin with the land. I do not care whether it is beef, butter or beer. Let us start with the land, which is the source of all production. If you want to find out if the retailer's price is an extravagant one or if there is profiteering you can only do so by tracing articles from their source and taking into account the cost of production to the farmer and what he gets when he sells to the wholesaler. You have also to consider the various channels the produce goes through before the wholesaler buys it and sells it to the retailer. You have to take into consideration all the overhead charges and the leakages that occur in the retailer's hands such as selling in small quantities. Strictly speaking, if goods are not well handled there can be as much leakage in the sale of a stone as in the sale of a ton of stuff. I say you can only ascertain whether retail prices are true or false by starting at the source of production, going down to the wholesaler and the retailer and discovering the process of distribution. To launch an inquiry into retail or wholesale prices is, in my opinion, starting at the wrong end.

Mr. FARREN

I think on a motion like this the Seanad need not go into details. Details will have to be considered later. If one side of a case is to be put up it is only fair that the opposite side should also be put up. I had the misfortune to be a member of the Prices Commission that was set up by the Government a few years ago. The members of the Commission spent a considerable amount of time dealing with the question that this motion now proposes to deal with. The Prices Commission lacked the power that this motion proposes to give, to demand the production of evidence and documents. The Prices Commission failed because there was not the necessary legal authority to demand the production of documents. One trade came before the Prices Commission and submitted an imaginary statement of accounts. The Commission could not get very far with that. I welcome any tribunal that is set up to deal fairly between all concerned, the producer, the wholesaler, the retailer and the consumer.

I must refer to some remarks made by Senator O'Rourke regarding the bakery trade. On a motion like this I would not dream of introducing a matter which would be an attack on an employer who did not pay decent wages. I do not think it would be fair to do so. Senator O'Rourke takes advantage of the motion in order to make statements about a matter of which he knows very little. He made a comparison of the prices of bread and wages in London and Dublin. There is a statement on record in the Department of Industry and Commerce that was made during the sitting of the Prices Commission by the leading baker in this country. There is no question about who the leading baker in this country is. I put a question to him about the difference in prices and he stated that if bakers in Dublin worked for nothing at all they could not sell the loaf in Dublin as cheaply as it is sold in London. That is on record, and there is no use in a Senator making a statement without knowing all the circumstances. Before I asked that question I knew what the answer would be. The principal baker in this country admitted that if the bakers in Dublin worked for nothing the loaf could not be produced as cheaply as it is in London. I think Senator O'Rourke should investigate the conditions of employment before making allegations against any particular trade. If the motion is passed, I hope that the work of the Commission will meet with more success than the Commission on Prices.

Mr. O'FARRELL

Although Senator Farren assumes that the tribunal will have power to summon witnesses and demand the production of documents, Senator Douglas has not made that plain. I would like to hear from the Minister if that is intended.

CATHAOIRLEACH

That is the reason I asked what was the particular importance of the word "Tribunal." The word Tribunal is of great importance, as it covers all the points you require. Apparently use is being made of an Imperial Act of 1921 by which a tribunal for purposes of this kind can be set up. It is expressly provided in the legislation that such a tribunal shall have all the powers of a High Court as regards enforcing attendance of witnesses, examination of witnesses, and compelling production of documents. That is the purpose and object of the tribunal.

Mr. O'FARRELL

I am very glad to hear that. Everyone knows that the Prices Commission of 1922 turned out a fiasco, and I think that was one reason why it did. Personally I have not very much hope of anything material emerging from this Commission, unless, to the extent, that it may proceed on the lines of the Food Council in London, and through publicity indicate what retail prices are and should be. The Food Council in England has done remarkably good work in this respect.

As Senator Farren has pointed out, reference has been made to matters that could be more properly dealt with before the Commission. Some people are inclined to make wild statements that the cost of articles to the consumer here is due to the high wages. The question of bad management and bad business methods and the over supply of retailers in proportion to the number of consumers has to be considered. Some time ago the railway managers appeared before the Railway Wages Board looking for a reduction in wages which would come to about a quarter of a million yearly. One of the arguments made use of was that if that relief was granted by the railway employees it would mean inevitably a fall in the cost of living, because of the reduced charges. The demand was refused, but the Railway Tribunal just a year ago enforced a reduction in railway rates and fares which to one company meant a loss of £500,000. They gave a half a million to the retail people who were using the railways, and everyone is aware the cost of living is as high to-day as ever it was.

It does not affect the cost of living to the extent of a farthing. The resolution refers to articles of general consumption. I presume that includes the question of stout and beer, because I think it is an article of fairly general consumption, and there is a demand for an inquiry into it. I am afraid, however, that the Government are gradually falling into the hands of retailers and wholesalers very largely. In addition to being bankrupt politically, the Government Party are bankrupt financially. The result is, the Government candidates of the future for some time will be people who can pay their own expenses, such as publicans, cattle-dealers, doctors, and people of that kind, and one wonders to what extent Government policy is to be compromised. We had on Monday night the bewildering spectacle of the Minister for Justice, the modern Father Mathew, appealing for votes for one of the disciples of Bacchus. I would like to ask the Minister if he has tried to exclude the prices of beer and milk from this agreement. We know that the publican has been selected as a candidate in the forthcoming election by the Government because he can pay his election expenses. I hope such things will not influence the policy of the Government in matters of this kind, and that we are going to select representatives of various interests, and not give predominance in the tribunal to the retailer or wholesaler. We should also give the fullest powers to this Commission to enable it to do its work properly.

Mr. O'ROURKE

Will it include labour costs?

MINISTER for INDUSTRY and COMMERCE (Mr. McGilligan)

The terms of reference are drafted in such a way that they do in my opinion include labour costs. Anything that bears on prices falls under consideration. I think obviously labour costs would come in, not merely labour costs but the proportion which labour costs have assisted in adding to the price of any commodity here. That, I think, is what Senator Farren was driving at. The matter of the compulsory powers I explained in the Dáil, but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears so far as being brought outside the Dáil to the general public. I do not expect Senators to read the Dáil reports. They are too voluminous; but I expect newspapers to report accurately what is said in the Dáil. It was amazing to me, after I quoted from a document, that one newspaper said editorially that it was left very vague whether compulsory powers were given or not, and another paper had a headline "Compulsory Powers at Last." We were left then between the two. If there are any doubts I should like to remove them.

This resolution is a condition precedent to the setting up of a tribunal; the resolution having been passed by both Houses, a tribunal may be appointed. Certain Acts shall apply, and it is our intention that the Evidence Act of 1921 shall apply. Powers will be given to the Commission. Reference has been made to a chairman. It is quite obvious that in the Commission founded on an Act of this type the chairman must be expert in the matter of evidence. It is my view that the chairman must have legal experience, must be able to interpret this Act and to hear evidence. I do not want to damp any enthusiasm there is with regard to this tribunal or to throw cold water on it, but it is my belief that the result of it will be not so much suggestions as to how prices may be reduced as a definite clarifying of the public mind with regard to high prices in the country which may easily turn out to be the over-plus of the retailers, the very bad distributive system in the country, and not so much that any one individual or set of individuals have proved to be profiteers. Nevertheless it is better that the tribunal should get these facts laid clearly before the public and if it were only for that purpose I urge that the resolution should be passed. There is a further hope that the tribunal may be able to make suggestions to bring down prices. It is a further hope that the mere publicity may, in itself, effect a reduction in prices.

Motion put and declared carried.