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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 24 Feb 1926

Vol. 6 No. 10

PRIVATE BUSINESS. - LAND BILL, 1926—SECOND STAGE.

Question proposed: "That this Bill be now read a second time."

It is, I think, proper in introducing this Bill for the consideration of the Seanad, that I should endeavour to present it in its setting and in its perspective, and to that end it will be necessary for me to ask the attention of Senators for a certain amount of matter which might be considered historical. It is necessary in the case of a Bill of this kind to trace, very carefully, for the information of Senators, its origin, and to define quite clearly its purpose. The origin of the Bill may be said to lie as far back as 1922, when the Constitution of this State was the subject of joint consideration between those representing the Provisional Government and members of the British Government. The Constitution was the subject of joint consideration because the Constitution grew from, and was based upon, the Treaty to which there were two parties. And it was the right and the interest of the British Government to satisfy themselves that this Constitution originated from the Treaty and conformed with the Treaty.

Together with the late President Griffith, and the present Chief Justice, I went to London in June, 1922, to discuss with members of the British Government the draft Constitution of this State, and in the course of the discussion there was one article of the Constitution amongst others that came under review. That Article 66 of the Constitution reads as follows:—

"The Supreme Court of the Irish Free State (Saorstát Eireann) shall, with such exceptions (not including cases which involve questions as to the validity of any law) and subject to such regulations as may be prescribed by law, have appellate jurisdiction from all decisions of the High Court. The decision of the Supreme Court shall, in all cases, be final and conclusive and shall not be reviewed or be capable of being reviewed by any other court, tribunal or authority whatsoever: Provided that nothing in this Constitution shall impair the right of any person to petition his Majesty for special leave to appeal from the Supreme Court to his Majesty in Council, or the right of his Majesty to grant such leave."

That article of the Constitution is clear in its terms. It provides that so far as we could effect it the decision of the Supreme Court of this State should be final and not be subject to review by any other court, tribunal or authority whatsoever, and then came the express reservation which was insisted on—what is known as the King's prerogative.

The King's prerogative in this matter is one of the fictions of the British Constitution, which, as we know, is a bundle of fictions, very interesting historically. All of them had their place in the growth and development of that Constitution, and one of the fictions is that the King, or rather the Sovereign, King or Queen, is the very fount and origin of justice. And the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, which is in fact a court, is, in the language of the fiction, an intervention of the Sovereign to inquire into some matter arising out of the administration of justice. Now it was insisted—and I think they were entitled to insist—by the British Ministers that there should be written into our Constitution an expression saving the express reservation of this prerogative. It exists in the Constitution of the Dominions to which our Constitution is analogous, and must be analogous, within the Treaty. In that connection I would like to make one comment. You will not find the actual Constitution of Canada in the British North America Act, 1867; you will not find the actual Constitution of South Africa in the South African Act, and you will not, in fact, find the actual Constitution of Australia in the Australian Commonwealth Act.

You will find there the written words, the language of the Act which purports to enshrine their Constitution. But there is this interesting fact, that just as the British Constitution is the growth of precedent, practice, usage, evolution, so in the case of the Dominions, no sooner was an attempt made to set down with ink on paper the limits of their Constitution than they began to grow and evolve and depart widely and radically from the written Constitution—that which was set down in the legislation. Canada has vastly outgrown the British North American Act of 1867. There is small resemblance to-day between the law and the fact in respect of the Constitution of Canada, and scarcely as much between the law and the fact in South Africa and Australia. I stress these things because it is necessary to stress them, and because they arose very definitely when it was suggested to the Irish Ministers in 1922 that they should accept, written into their Constitution, the provisions which exist and are written into the Constitutions of the Dominions. Our attitude at the time was that we were not over-much worried about fictions, provided that they remained fictions, and we were not over-much worried about the words written with ink on paper, provided that the usage and the practice would be satisfactory, and provided that it was clear that it was not the law as distinct from the fact in the other Dominions that would be extended towards this Irish Free State that was to come into existence. That arose on many Articles of the Constitution.

It is unnecessary to direct the attention of Senators specifically to all the articles on which that point arose, but it arose also in relation to Article 66. This express reservation of the King's prerogative with ink on paper was one thing, but what the usage would be and what the practice would be was another thing. Frankly, we were more concerned with what the usage and practice would be than with the words that were to be written with ink on paper, and it was with regard to the usage and practice that we sought the guarantees, undertakings and assurances, which we did, in fact, receive. This interesting remnant of a prerogative being under consideration, we were concerned to ask to what extent will it be a reality, to what extent will appeals be brought and admitted in the matter of litigation arising out of the Free State, and we raised the point that the proper analogy would be not the analogy of the non-unitary States, like Canada and Australia, but the analogy of South Africa, the unitary Dominion, a state complete within itself, a non-composite State. Canada and Australia may have, perhaps, a special need for an over-riding tribunal.

Litigation may arise as between one State and another, or as between the State and the central Government, and it may be desirable that in litigation of that kind an appeal should lie outside the actual jurisdiction of the Dominion. It is not so in South Africa, and it is not so in the Irish Free State. We received, then, in the month of June, 1922, from the British Ministers, amongst whom was included the Lord Chancellor of the day, very definite assurances and undertakings that the usage and the practice in this matter in relation to the Irish Free State would be the usage and practice in relation to South Africa, and, to give us a proper conception of the proportions of the matter, it was pointed out that since the Union of South Africa was established not more than seven or eight appeals had been admitted to and heard by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. It was on that basis and on that understanding that Article 66 of the Constitution was written in. Elsewhere, I was asked: "Would it not be possible to insert in your Constitution the undertakings and assurances that were given"? It was not possible and not desirable.

Once this prerogative had to be accepted and had to be admitted at all, implicit in that there was a discretion, and what we were most concerned about was the manner in which that discretion would be exercised. It was in respect to that, that the undertakings of which I speak were given. On the general question of appeals to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council we have our own view, a view which, within the counsels of the British Commonwealth, we will continue to urge. For the moment I simply ask the concurrence of this House with the view of the Dáil that this particular case of Lynham and Butler is one that ought not to have been admitted by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council; that its admittance to that tribunal is a departure from the undertakings given Irish Ministers in 1922, as a result of which agreement was reached on Article 66 of our Constitution.

It might be, perhaps, of interest to Senators if I read two short extracts from people who are considered to be authorities on the Constitution of this peculiar political entity, now known as the British Commonwealth of Nations. They are writers of eminence, and in reading extracts from their works I simply think it right to remind Senators that the writings and statements of professors, however eminent as constitutional authorities, are not always accepted or recognised by politicians, and that it does happen that their forecasts are sometimes rather long in fulfilment. For what they are worth I will read an extract from "The British Commonwealth of Nations" (Duncan Hall). Referring to the Imperial Conference of 1918, he writes:

"The opinions expressed by the Dominion statesmen in the debate of 1918 showed that this feeling against appeals to an external court is now stronger than ever in the Dominions. Mr. Hughes admitted there was no demand in Australia for an Imperial Court of Appeal. ‘But,' he said, ‘one thing there is a strong demand for, and if a vote on it can be taken it would be carried overwhelmingly ...that there should be no appeal to the Privy Council or to any Imperial Court of Appeal at all.' Sir Robert Borden expressed the view that the tendency in Canada ‘will be to restrict appeals to the Privy Council rather than to increase them,' and one of his colleagues pointed out that there was a growing opinion in Canada ‘that our own courts should be the final authority.' The only representative at the Conference that expressed himself as thoroughly satisfied with the working of the system was the representative of India. The only conclusion which it seems safe to draw from this evidence is that the Dominions will not consent to the creation of an Imperial Court of Appeal, and that Dominion appeals to the Judicial Committee are likely before long to cease altogether. There are weighty reasons for believing such a development would be an advantage rather than a disaster."

The extract from Professor Berriedale Keith is as follows:—

"War Government in the Dominions.—Fresh importance has been attached by the development of the status of the Dominions to the question of the retention of the right to appeal from Dominion Courts to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. That body itself has shown no anxiety to extend its jurisdiction. It has, on the contrary, affirmed the principle that only on cases of the highest importance will it hear appeals from the Union of South Africa, so that for practical purposes the appeal from the Union is a matter of mere theoretic interest. It has similarly declined to exercise its technically valued right to hear criminal appeals from Canada, even in so interesting a case as that of the Winnipeg rioters, whose condemnation raised bitter political feelings in the Dominion. It has also shown great reluctance to grant leave to appeal in any Australian case not of the first importance. It may, therefore, be held that the jurisdiction, though still in active exercise, and though still of the highest importance as regards cases on the Canadian Constitution, is in process of obsolescence, and that the way is paved for its extinction unless steps are taken to revise the basis on which it rests."

These extracts may be discounted by some Senators as merely the opinions of professors. I have heard them so discounted. I will ask Senators therefore to pass with me to the year 1923, when the first petitions for leave to appeal from the Irish Free State came before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. Before entering on the hearing of these appeals, Viscount Haldane, who presided, made a general statement, a statement of what he regarded as the principle that ought to be applied in relation to petitions of that kind emanating from the Irish Free State. He at least is not a professor. He had been a Lord Chancellor and subsequent to 1923 was again Lord Chancellor. His word on the matter would, perhaps, in the mind of many Senators have more weight than that of the eminent professors I have quoted. He was not Lord Chancellor in 1923, but the Lord Chancellor in 1923 who selected the Court which would hear these petitions from the Irish Free State was the same Lord Chancellor as in 1922 when the assurances and undertakings were given to the members of the Irish Provisional Government. It is interesting to note that the statement made by Lord Haldane in the following year conforms very closely to the general spirit in which Article 66 was finally agreed upon between members of the two Governments. In the course of his statement, which was rather lengthy, Lord Haldane spoke as follows:—

"In Ireland, under the Constitution Act, by Section 66, the prerogative is saved and the prerogative, therefore, exists in Ireland just as it does in Canada, South Africa, India, and right through the Empire, with the single exception that I have mentioned, that it is modified in the case of the Commonwealth of Australia in reference to, but only in reference to, constitutional disputes in Australia. That being so, the Sovereign retains the ancient prerogative of being the supreme Tribunal of Justice. I need not observe that the growth of the Empire and the growth particularly of the Dominions has led to very substantial restriction of the exercise of the prerogative by the Sovereign on the advice of the judicial committee. It is obviously proper that the Dominions should more and more dispose of their own cases, and in criminal cases it has been laid down so strictly that it is only in most exceptional cases that the Sovereign is advised to intervene. In other cases the practice which has grown up, or the unwritten usage which has grown up, is that the Judicial Committee is to look closely into the nature of the case, and, if in their Lordships' opinion, the question is one that can be best determined on the spot, then the Sovereign is not, as a rule, advised to intervene, nor is he advised to intervene normally—I am not laying down precise rules now, but I am laying down the general principles—unless the case is one involving some great principle or is of some very wide public interest. It is also necessary to keep a certain discretion, because, when you are dealing with the Dominions, you find that they differ very much. For instance, in States that are not Unitary States, that is to say, States within themselves, questions may arise between the Central Government and the State which, when an appeal is admitted, gives rise very readily to questions which are apparently very small, but which may involve serious consideration, and there leave to appeal is given rather freely. In Canada there are a number of cases in which leave to appeal is granted, because Canada is not a Unitary State, and because it is the desire of Canada itself that the Sovereign should retain the power of exercising his prerogative; but that does not apply to internal disputes not concerned with constitutional questions, but relating to matters of fact. There the rule against giving leave to appeal from the Supreme Court of Canada is strictly observed where no great constitutional question or question of law emerges.

"In the case of South Africa, which is a Unitary State ... the practice has become very strict. We are not at all disposed to advise the Sovereign unless there is some exceptional question, such as the magnitude of the question of law involved, or it is a question of public interest in the Dominion to give leave to appeal. It is obvious that the Dominions may differ in a certain sense among themselves. For instance, in India leave to appeal is more freely given than elsewhere, but the genesis of that is the requirements of India, and the desire of the people of India. In South Africa we take the general sense of that Dominion into account, and restrict the cases in which we advise His Majesty to give leave to appeal. It becomes with the Dominions more and more or less and less, as they please. We go upon the principles of autonomy on this question of exercising the discretion as to granting leave to appeal. It is within the Sovereign's power, but the Sovereign looking at the matter, exercises this discretion.

"We now come to Ireland. From what I have said it is obvious that it is not expedient that we should lay down too rigidly to begin with what the principles are. It will grow with the unwritten Constitution. You have got a Constitution which is partly written in Ireland, but our experience is that all unwritten Constitutions develop flesh and blood within the unwritten bones, and we have to see the sort of flesh and blood you put on as regards the question of how much you dispose completely of your own judicial questions. It may vary in different parts of the Empire, therefore we do not wish to lay down anything further than this. In the olden days the appeal to the House of Lords was as of right, as it is from Northern Ireland to-day, but the appeal to the Privy Council is not as of right. It is an appeal to the King's discretion, and it is founded on a petition that he should exercise his discretion. Well, obviously what is a matter of discretion is a very different thing from what is a matter of right and, accordingly, when you come from a new Dominion, with full Dominion status like the Irish Free State, it is not by any means as of course, even to begin with, that leave to appeal will be given. On the contrary, the Sovereign may be advised to apply the general principle of restriction to which I have alluded. That being so, we shall have to look into these petitions, one by one, and we shall bear in mind that the status of the new Irish Dominion is a status which, although it has been likened to a number of the Dominions in the Treaty Act and in the Treaty, is not strictly analogous to any one of them. For instance, it is not analogous to non-unitary Dominions. Southern Ireland is a Unitary Dominion and is analogous, therefore, to unitary Dominions like South Africa more than it is to non-unitary Dominions like Australia and Canada, that is from the point of view of justice only, because you will observe I have said no words to suggest that there is not a complete analogy established by the terms of the Constitution between Ireland and Canada for other purposes. I am only pointing out when we come to the exercise of a judicial discretion of this kind we must bear in mind the analogy of unitary dominions. I think I have now said enough to show that we shall look somewhat strictly at all applications for leave to appeal, and I think I have said enough to indicate the broad principles upon which we propose to act."

That was the statement of Lord Haldane at the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council on the 25th July, 1923, and I may add that the three petitions then before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council were dismissed. Leave was not given to appeal in any one of them.

That brings us to the Bill. The Bill, I think, is in the hands of Senators and I hope there is also in the hands of Senators the brief explanatory memorandum issued with it when it was before the Dáil for consideration. This case of Lynham and Butler which we are concerned with in connection with this Bill, arose some little time ago. It was tried before the two courts here. It was tried before the President of the High Court, Mr. Justice Sullivan, who decided in favour of the defendant. On appeal by the plaintiff to the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court held, affirming the decision of Mr. Justice Sullivan, that the date of the passing of the Land Act, 1923 was the crucial date for determining the application of the Act to tenanted land, and that lands which, at the date of the passing of the Act, are comprised in a holding within the operation of the purchase and sale provisions of the Act, do not cease to be within these provisions by the happening of an event such as would, but for the Act, determine the tenancy before the actual vesting of the land in the Land Commission or the appointment of a day for such vesting under the provisions of the Act.

The net point in this case of Lynham and Butler is briefly stated in the concluding portion of paragraph 3 of the memorandum. It was: "That the question for determination in the case was whether, notwithstanding the fact that the holding was, at the date of the passing of the Land Act, 1923, tenanted land within the meaning of that Act, the defendant was deprived of the benefits conferred by the Act on tenants of tenanted land by the expiration of the term for which his tenancy was created before the Land Commission had fixed an ‘appointed day' for the vesting of the lands in the Land Commission." It was decided in a particular way by the High Court here and the Supreme Court here. It is not the kind of case that should have been brought or should have been admitted by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. I submit to Senators that it does not fulfil the conditions laid down in Lord Haldane's dictum in 1923. I submit that its admittance past the portals of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council is a departure from the undertakings given to Irish Ministers in 1922. The date on which our Land Act becomes effective has been decided here by two courts. It may be, and it has been suggested to me, that the equities in this particular case of Lynham and Butler lie very much in one direction. That may be, but let us have a glance at the position, if the law were otherwise than it has been found to be by two of our courts.

A tenant for the lifetime of some person finds himself within the provisions of the Act. Is he to be outside the provisions of the Act, outside the scope and benefits of the Act, by the occurrence of some accidental circumstance between the passing of the Act and the appointed day in relation to his particular estate? I submit that if that were the position you would have an utterly haphazard state of affairs. The question whether a particular tenant would benefit or would not benefit by the Act might turn on such a casual, accidental circumstance as the speed with which the Land Commission managed to reach a particular estate—whether it was taken this week, next week, or the week after. If it were reached and administered one week he would benefit by the Act. Three weeks later the life might have expired, and if the law were otherwise than it was found to be by the High Court and the Supreme Court here, that accidental circumstance would be the deciding factor as to whether or not the tenant came with the provisions of the Land Act of 1923 or not.

I do not propose to devote very much time to a discussion of the net law point involved in this case of Lynham v. Butler. The Seanad no more than the Dáil can try the case of Lynham v. Butler. It is not their function to try it, nor my function to plead the particular aspect of it. But I want to stress this, that the point was a net point, was clearly before the two courts of the Free State, and was determined in the same way by both of these courts; and further, that the case is not one raising a great issue affecting large numbers of people. The case is not one raising issues which transcend the jurisdiction of this State and, consequently, the case, as I submit, is not one which, according to the undertakings given to the Provisional Government in 1922, and according to Lord Haldane's dictum a year later, should be admitted to the jurisdiction of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. I would like to read for the Seanad one short extract from the judgment given on the South African case of Whittaker which came before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council by way of petition for leave to appeal. The appeal was refused, and in the course of the refusal the following occurred:—

"One cannot read Section 106 of the South African Act, 1909, without seeing that the intention was to get rid of appeals to the King in Council, except such as, in the strict exercise of the prerogative, his Majesty should say that he would allow on some great ground. Even the Parliament has power to limit these appeals from South Africa. No doubt the prerogative is not wholly swept away, but it is obviously intended to be exercised in a very restricted sense. As his Majesty has been a partner to the Imperial Act, we must bear that in view. In the case of Canada it was held that the words of the Act do not touch the discretion, but in the South African Act, 1909, there is express power given to Parliament to limit the prerogative. That shows an intention that the matter was to be looked at from a South African point of view. I am only looking at Section 106. Their lordships have taken into account the character of the question which arises here under this Act, and however important it may be, it is essentially a local question—a South African question."

There is nothing stated here in that judgment in connection with Section 106 of the South African Act which does not apply with full force and effect to our Constitution and to Article 66 of our Constitution. So far as the intention to get rid of appeals to the King in Council is concerned, except such as are in the strict exercise of the prerogative of his Majesty, there is ample evidence of that in Article 66 of our Constitution. The further point is made as to the power of the South African Parliament to limit the prerogative applies also to our Constitution. For by Section 50 there is express power to amend the Constitution by ordinary legislation for eight years. This Bill is a declaratory Bill. It is a protest, the only effective protest which seems open to us. It declares the state of the law. It declares the law to be as it has been found to be by the High Court and the Supreme Court of this land, and the appeal is introduced to the end that when his Majesty in Council comes to consider the case of Lynham v. Butler there will be but one course open, the course of confirming and endorsing the judgment of the High Court and the Supreme Court of this State.

I do not want to mislead the Senators as to the purpose of the Bill. It is not a Bill for the removal of doubts, there being in our view, no doubts. It is a Bill to declare and confirm that the law is as it has been found to be by the two Irish courts. It is a protest against the admission of this case by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. It is in that spirit it was introduced. It is in that spirit that we wish to have it passed, so that it may be clear to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council that the desire here is that finality should lie with our Supreme Court in litigation arising here. We were assured in 1923 that in the case of the Dominions it shall be more and more or less and less as they please. I ask for substantial and concrete evidence that the desire here is to have it less and less rather than more and more. I ask Senators to share the view of the Government and the view of the Dáil that it is not desirable that litigation arising here should be hawked outside the jurisdiction of our State to an external court. I speak frankly of this court, because, as we know, it is a court. There is no real question here of prerogative. The fiction that the King is intervening personally and directly on the petition of the subject to inquire into some matter arising from the administration of justice is merely a fiction.

The Judicial Committee of the Privy Council is a court, a court with some very peculiar characteristics, a court selected ad hoc by a British politician, selected ad hoc by a member of the British Government. It is the Lord Chancellor who assigns the judges who are to try every and any case that is sought to be brought to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, and the Lord Chancellor while a very eminent lawyer is none the less a politician and a member of the Cabinet. That is one feature of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. If Senators share my view, the view of the Government, the view of the Dáil, that the case of Lynham v. Butler should not have been admitted to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, then its admission constitutes an erosion of our Constitution, and if we throw up no rampart against such erosion, such erosion will continue and we will find ourselves back in the position when appeals will lie, as of course and as of right almost, in Irish litigation, to a court outside Ireland. We will find ourselves back in the old House of Lords position, with the appeal lying as a matter of course. That was not the spirit of 1922; that was not the spirit of the undertakings given in 1922. The analogy of South Africa was guaranteed, the analogy of the unitary State. It has been departed from, and the only effective resistance we can offer to such departure is to pass this declaratory Act, to declare and confirm that the law is as two of our courts have found it to be. For the rest, it lies in the future.

I am simply asking Senators to concentrate on this case of Lynham v. Butler. Our general opposition to and our general distaste for the continuance of this appeal at all is another matter, one that can be raised and threshed out within the Councils of the British Commonwealth. Our view is quite definite. This appeal is an anachronism. It is something that has outlived its utility. It is something that should go with the veto. As long as it survives, and to whatever extent it survives, judicial independence is lacking. We have here, within the Treaty, legislative independence. No one comes to the Dáil or the Seanad to say what legislation they should pass or what legislation they should not pass. We have in this State administrative independence. No one steps between the civil servant and the Executive Council to say what should or what should not be done in administration. To whatever extent you have a survival and a continuance of the appeals to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, then, to that extent, judicial independence is lacking. Elsewhere there was comment on the undesirability of retroactive legislation. One can state a general principle which sounds well and which is, in fact, good, and yet find many sets of circumstances in which that fine general principle has to go by the board. We could all agree that retroactive legislation is in general undesirable, but I want to put it to Senators that there are many situations in which retroactive legislation is not merely desirable but necessary, and that that has been found to be the case by other and greater Parliaments than ours.

I could give many precedents of retrospective and retroactive legislation in Westminster. I have a stock with me. I will not weary Senators with many, but I could spend the rest of the evening giving to Senators precedents from the "Mother of Parliaments" of retroactive legislation. Declaratory statutes, statutes declaring the state of the law, are not infrequent. Recently in the British Parliament you had the War Charges (Validity) Act, 1925, a statute rendered necessary because during the European war certain Government Departments had imposed charges or payments in connection with the granting of licences or permits which were issued for the purpose of the control of supplies of certain commodities such as cotton or the import or export of goods such as steel, hops, etc. The validity of these charges was called in question in the courts, and in the case of the Attorney-General v. Wilts United Dairies, Ltd., the Attorney-General sought to recover from the defendants a sum of £15,000 odd, being the amount of 2d. a gallon which they had agreed to pay on milk purchased by them under licence from the Food Controller, who had granted the licence under the Milk (Registration of Dealers) Order, 1918, and the Milk (Distribution) Order, 1918, made in virtue of the Defence of the Realm Act. It was held by the Court of Appeal that the imposition of a charge of 2d. was a levying of money for the use of the Crown without Grant of Parliament and was illegal. This decision was upheld by the House of Lords. Other cases were brought before the Court, and in consequence of adverse decisions against the Crown, the War Charges (Validity) Act of 1925 was passed. That Act provided that the imposition of the various charges which were specified in the Act and the levying of the sums thereby charged, should be and should always be deemed to have been valid in law, and any sum not paid before the commencement of the Act should be recovered as a Crown debt. The Act also made provision for invalidating proceedings taken for the recovery of sums illegally charged before the Act.

Senators will remember the Civil Service bonus legislation which we passed here ourselves. There was a case of McDonald v. Shand in England in which it was held that the word "perquisites" in Rule 4 of the income tax schedule, which were defined in subrule 3, covered specifically profits (derived from offices or employments), which vary and could not in the nature of things be ascertained until the year ran out, while Rule 1 dealt with the case of a fixed salary. The case was concerned with the taxpayer who had a fixed annual salary and a bonus on nett profits. As a result of the case, the great majority of civil servants realised, in so far as they were remunerated by a fixed salary and a bonus, determinable by reference to a variable factor, that the decision in McDonald v. Shand applied to them and notices of appeal were at once served by most of the civil servants in or about the year 1923. The response of the British Government to that, just as the response here in this State, was to hurl a Bill through both Houses—retroactive legislation. Section 4 of the Finance Act of 1924 was hurriedly passed, and its terms are practically identical with a similar section subsequently passed in the British Finance Act of 1924.

The Territorial Waters Jurisdiction Act, 1878, was passed in order to overrule the opinion of the majority of the judges in the Franconia case which dealt with the limits of the British territorial waters. The Preamble to that Act asserts, in defiance of the majority of the judges who heard that case, that

"the right jurisdiction of Her Majesty, her heirs and successors extends and has always extended over the open seas adjacent to the coast of the United Kingdom and of all other parts of Her Majesty's dominions to such a distance as is necessary for the defence and security of such dominions."

Many Senators will remember the case of Bolt versus the Bank of England which gave rise to retroactive legislation bearing upon the collection of income tax. There are, of course, many more that could be quoted. I have, perhaps, quoted sufficient to show that while retroactive legislation may be condemned in the abstract, while the general principle may be laid down of its undesirability, governments have always introduced, and governments always will introduce, retroactive legislation whenever they consider that the state of circumstances warranting that course has arisen. I ask Senators to apply that test. In this case it is not a matter of the prospect of serious financial loss, such as induced the British Government to have recourse to retroactive legislation when there was a possibility of civil servants recovering the income tax that had been charged in respect of their bonuses. In this case it is not a question of financial loss at all. It is a question which, perhaps, Senators might consider of greater import, a question of constitutional encroachment which, if it is to be effectively resisted, must be resisted by retroactive legislation, by a statute which will say what the law is on a particular point, and always has been what it has been found to be by the High Court and by the Supreme Court here. We may leave the general question as to whether this anomaly, this anachronism of an appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council is to survive or not "on the knees of the gods."

That is something on which we have our view, which we will express and urge within the councils of the British Commonwealth, but it is not something which arises of necessity in this case. To concur with the Government and the Dáil in respect to this Bill merely requires a frame of mind on the part of Senators that they are strongly of opinion that the case of Lynham v. Butler was improperly admitted by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council; that its admittance was in conflict with the undertaking given to the representatives of the Irish Government in 1922; and that it would not have been admitted had it originated in and emanated from the other unitary dominion—South Africa. If Senators believe that, then the implication of that is that the admission of this case by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council represents an encroachment on our constitutional position. That is the view of the Government and that view is urged in this Bill. If the Lynham v. Butler case is open to review of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council then there will have taken place an encroachment of our constitutional position and there will have been set up a precedent that will give rise to further such encroachments.

We hold, and hold strongly, that if Lynham and Butler is to be heard by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council it must be heard in such a set of circumstances that it will not be an open issue, that there will be only one course available for the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, and that will be to endorse and confirm the decision of the Irish courts. We ask the Seanad to help to bring about that state of affairs; to help to bring it about as a conscious, deliberate protest against the admission of a case that ought not to have been admitted. There is no advertence to the parties in this case. The case has raised greater issues, issues in the magnitude of which the interests of both Lynham and Butler disappear. We can deal with the parties.

The Minister for Finance expressed his readiness to consider any equitable claims which might arise in connection with the cost of this petition. Provision has frequently been made in retroactive legislation in other Parliaments for the payment of the costs in pending cases, and it is often precisely because they are pending cases that retroactive legislation is introduced. I could quote instances to Senators where in the very Bill itself reference was made to pending costs and where provision was made for payment of the costs in such cases. But this is no longer a case of Lynham v. Butler. It is a case of the Irish Free State resisting and opposing the encroachment by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council on its Constitution; not on its written Constitution but on its unwritten Constitution —the unwritten Constitution represented by the assurances and undertakings of the British Ministers, including the British Lord Chancellor, in 1922—assurances that the practice and usage here in connection with that particular prerogative would be the practice and usage that obtains in relation to South Africa. That has not been honoured; that has been departed from, and because it has been departed from we have considered it necessary to bring this Bill before the Dáil and before the Seanad.

I have listened with very great interest to the speech of the Minister, and, like a number of other members of this House, my principal objection to this Bill is to its form. I do not know that I have ever known a Bill which was so objectionable in form. With his usual absolute candour the Minister admits that this is not a Land Bill. It is introduced for the purpose of protesting against the leave that was given by the Privy Council to appeal in Lynham v. Butler, and I take it also as a protest against an appeal in every other case of that class. It is, therefore, really a gesture and not a law which is going to be created by this Act, and I must say that the performance of gesture by Act of Parliament is, as far as I know, unique in the history of Parliaments. I also object to the form of this Bill, on the ground that it is retrospective or retroactive. None of those precedents which the Minister quoted of retrospective legislation are anything like so vicious as this one, because this one actually takes away the presently vested right of action pending an appeal.

I think there is, perhaps, one case in an English Act of Parliament, and perhaps one in Australia, where something very nearly as bad as this was done. But this is not an ordinary case of retrospective legislation which is very often justified by the necessity of the times. It is really one of the worst cases of retrospective legislation, because it deprives the individual of a right of pending litigation. My principal objection to the form of this Bill is that it makes the Oireachtas the interpreter of the law, and it declares what the law is and what the law has always been. Now, the interpretation of the law is for the courts. It is their exclusive function, and it is not ours at all. If the courts interpret the law in a certain sense which is contrary to what the legislature intended, or what the legislature deems to be right, then the legislature has a right to repeal an Act or to amend the law, but it has no right to say what the law is, and, above all, it has no right to say what the law has been. The Bill, therefore, is, to my mind, a usurpation of the function of the courts and the contention which has been relied on by the Minister that the interpretation which they are putting on this section of the Land Act is the same as the interpretation put upon it by two courts in the country is absolutely beside the question. The vicious principle is there. They are interpreting the law instead of making it or amending it, and there is nothing and will be nothing to prevent this House acting on the precedent that is given to them by this Bill in declaring that the law is something different from what the courts have interpreted pending litigation.

I cannot, speaking in all seriousness, imagine any public interest so great as to justify what is to my mind an absolute menace to the independence of our courts. In a democratic society like ours—and the more democratic the society and the form of Government the more is this true—the greatest and the last protection for the individual is the independence of the courts. With this blot upon this Bill, even if I absolutely approved of the principle of the Bill itself, I could not possibly vote for its second reading. So much for the form of the Bill, and now I come to its substance, that is, as to the question of the right to appeal to the Privy Council, and whether it ought to be limited, as it is in this Bill. With absolute frankness the Minister has told us what he asks us to do is to say that this one case of Lynham v. Butler ought not to have been treated by the Committee of the Privy Council in the manner in which it was treated.

If that were the issue before this House I would myself say "Yes," for I agree that a case of the nature of Lynham v. Butler was not a case in which leave to appeal to the Privy Council ought to be given. That is my own personal opinion, and my opinion as a lawyer. It was not of that public importance; it involved no constitutional question. It was an ordinary individual case on the construction of one of our own Acts of Parliament that dealt entirely with Irish law and our peculiar Irish land law. I would go so far as to say that in the interpretation of Article 66 there ought not to be liberty given to appeal in any case which I might describe as a case of domestic legislation, that is, a case which involves the construction or the administration of purely Irish Free State statutory law, and if I was quite sure that what the Minister wants to do by this Bill is to give our sanction to that proposition, for my part I would gladly do it. But what I am afraid of is that we may be asked to do more than that, and that by giving a second reading to this Bill we may be taken as doing something more. Strongly as I hold the view that leave to appeal to the Privy Council ought not to be given in ordinary cases involving our own domestic law, I am equally strongly of opinion that the right of appeal to the Privy Council in cases which involve law which is common to us, to Great Britain and to the Colonies, and which involves constitutional questions or questions of great importance of that outside nature, ought to be preserved.

I thought that the Minister in portions of his speech recognised, and I think he does recognise, that as far as these Houses are concerned no attack should be made on the right of appeal in that second class of case. I gather that he trusts to the Imperial Conference, which is to meet some time in the coming autumn, for some action which will lead to the further limitation of the right of appeal to the Privy Council in that second class of case, that is in the class of case outside domestic legislation. If I am assured of that my objection to the present Bill practically disappears because, although I may have doubts as to its being within the strict lines of the Constitution, I would be inclined to leave that question to Mr. Lynham. If this Bill is an infringement of the Constitution it is open to the Courts to say so, and the citizen who is injured by our legislation can get relief. For that reason I do not discuss this question from the point of view of the Constitution at all. I recognise the fact that this question of appeal to the Privy Council is one we have got to face.

I recognise that this right is one which ought to be properly limited, and I recognise the fact that in all the other Dominions, except New Zealand, which is the farthest away of all, the tendency now is to limit further this right of appeal. They have practically got rid of it altogether in South Africa, and they have gone a long way to get rid of it in Australia, where they have excluded all constitutional questions from appeal to the Privy Council, which is the last thing one would expect a democratic country to do. Canada, too, we know, with the exception of the Province of Quebec, is entirely in favour of limiting this right. They want to be put on the same basis as South Africa. These are questions that will come up before the Imperial Conference. I very much regret that the Government, instead of bringing in this measure, which is so vicious in form, did not wait until the Imperial Conference met.

They could have brought the matter before them there, and if the opinion of that great Council of the Dominions was in favour of the course they have taken under this Bill, then I have no doubt its determination, like all the other determinations of that body, would have been duly honoured. I trust that this further question—that is whether there should be an appeal at all to the Privy Council—is one that will be very carefully and very seriously discussed there, because, much as I am opposed to an appeal to the Privy Council in purely domestic cases. I consider it would be greatly to the detriment of the Dominions if this right of appeal in really public and important cases were taken away. So far as the present Bill is concerned, owing to its present form I cannot vote for the Second Reading. I am not prepared to vote against it because it does not go the length and it does not involve the principle of no appeal in any case outside a domestic case. The Minister has more than once stated that he is confining this to Lynham v. Butler and cases of the kind. As long as he does that I am willing that this Bill be passed. I would be anxious that we should not divide on this Bill if I were certain that it did not involve more than the right of appeal in these purely domestic cases.

I am glad to be able to support this Bill even if it was only to encourage the Minister to take a national view. As far as I have been able to follow the course of the Minister, this is the first instance where he has taken up a national view of any kind. I have still a hope that having seen how badly he has been treated in this and in other cases by Ministers across the water, he will stand up to them in future and adopt a more national viewpoint. If he will take a look at the records of the old Irish Parliament he will see the attitude they adopted. We did not find Grattan trotting over to the Colonial Office every day and making bargains. I remember that on one occasion Grattan and his party were determined that certain action should be taken. The British Minister of the time, a LiberalWhig, Fox, tried to induce him to delay. He did not ask Grattan to go over to London, but he sent an envoy to ask him to delay for a few days. At the time Grattan happened to be seriously ill. The envoy went to his bedroom to persuade him. Grattan sat up in bed and said: "Go back, tell them not a day, not an hour." That was Grattan's reply. I wish we could get a little of the spirit of Grattan in the Ministers of the present day. However, the Minister has taken a certain step in that way and I will throw him a small bouquet. Unfortunately this Bill only covers one case. There is another appeal before the Privy Council which is not covered. If both appeals were covered I should throw the Minister a very large bouquet. At present I can only throw him a few spring flowers with hopes for the future.

It has been stated that this is not a heroic measure. That is true. I do not want to make it any the worse for that. I am always a moderate person, and if this measure is effectual, as it will be, to a certain extent, I entirely concur. When I first read the Constitution this was one of the questions that I was most shocked by. There was no such reference in the Treaty, and I thought it an extraordinary thing that it should be put into the Constitution. When we heard a little more about it we found the Ministry trotting over to London and pressure being brought to bear over there to induce them—to make them, I expect—to introduce this clause into it. The Minister, I think, admitted that in the other House. His statement here was that it was read to the English Ministers. I do not know whether they went further or if they had a right to dictate to Irish Ministers in this matter. If the Minister meant that, I entirely disagree with him. In my view, the Constitution should have been adopted at home and not taken over to England for acceptance. English pressure was the origin of this and of many other misfortunes for this country.

I found this in the Constitution: "Provided that nothing in this Constitution shall impair the right of any person to petition his Majesty." To me the words "impair the right" seem to govern the whole of this business. As far as I know, there is no right at all, so that there can be no right to impair. The House of Lords in England and the House of Lords in Ireland were the Supreme Court of Appeal. There was no constitutional right—there may have been one in theory—for any individual citizen in England to appeal from the decision of the House of Lords to the final Court of Appeal, the Privy Council. Since the time of Cromwell there has been no such right, as far as I know. I am not a lawyer, but that is my belief.

As far as Ireland is concerned, we know that there was constant friction on this subject. On a few occasions the English Privy Council tried to alter the law in Ireland. The question was always fought. At all events, it was fought when we had a strong Ministry. Perhaps the position was given up when we had a weak Ministry. The question was fought to such an extent that when the Court of Appeal in England decided in a certain way, the sheriff in Ireland declined to carry out that decision. A fuss was made, but the sheriff held he was not bound to carry out the laws of England against the laws of this country. The matter came up again in the Irish House of Commons in 1782, and a great constitutional question arose.

A great number of questions were raised in the Declaration of Rights brought forward by Grattan, the first of which was "to assure His Majesty that the people of Ireland were a free people," and the second was "that the subjects of this Kingdom cannot be bound, affected or obliged by any legislation save only by the King, Lords and Commons of Ireland, nor is there any body of men who have power and authority to make laws over the same." That was consistently upheld by the Irish Parliament, and the next year the English Parliament withdrew their claim to decide any Irish case. When the Union came the English House of Lords became the Superior Court of Appeal, and, as far as I know, from that time until now, there was no appeal which would be accepted from either an Irish person or an English person.

If I am right in my statement, there was no right of appeal at all previous to the Constitution being passed, and therefore, "that nothing in this Constitution shall impair the right of any person to petition his Majesty" means nothing, because there was no right to impair. These constitutional arguments lead one into all sorts of conundrums and difficulties which may be argued in a whole variety of ways and which I do not pin myself to. I do not admit the constitutional growth during the last two centuries. They are all founded on the supposition that the King of England conquered Ireland and acquired the right to give a constitution to Ireland and to make laws for Ireland. This was done by Edward I. When he called together a Parliament for Ireland he called one for England at the same time. From that out the Parliament was a Parliament of the Pale. The English Parliament claimed that it succeeded to the right of the King to legislate for Ireland. On that there was constant disagreement, in the main successful on the Irish side, but all those things left out the Irish nation. It stood, outside the Pale, an independent nation. When Grattan's Parliament overthrew the right of the English Parliament to interfere in Ireland he left the right to the King of Ireland, not to the King of England, to make certain decisions here. From 1916 to 1921 this independent nation arose and threw over all those rights of both King and Parliament. That is what I stand for. In the Constitution and the Treaty we accept the King as the head of a group of nations of which we are one. There is nothing more than that as far as I know.

I think, listening to the case that the Minister has made here, that the Ministers were deliberately deceived. The Minister shakes his head, but I think I know something about it. I think I know the Prime Minister of that time. He was quite ready to promise any mortal thing that suited him and not carry it out. That has been his plan always. Whether he did or did not intend to deceive, it is quite clear that the people who came after him and made those statements have brought up this case. They have brought up two cases, one of which was a local, and the other a general case. The Minister in the other House, although he did not approve of the appeals to the Privy Council, still approved to a certain extent of the right of appeal in the other case because it made a reference to the Treaty. That is exactly what the English Government want. I remember the first notice we had was a letter or a telegram from the King to the Governor-General in which Ireland was spoken of as a Dominion. Ireland was never a Dominion. I tried to raise the question a year or two before. I have always regarded that as the first step towards pushing on us a name and a position that we do not want.

Here, again, the English Government is very anxious about the Privy Council, forgetting altogether that there is an Irish Privy Council. If there is an appeal at all it should be to an Irish Privy Council and not to an English Privy Council. But the English Government are very anxious that the Privy Council should decide on the affairs of the Dominions and that is why these things come in. They have, let me remark, refused of late to allow any of the Treaties made between Ireland and England to be registered with the League of Nations, and they stated that they could not agree that the League of Nations should interfere in domestic matters. They do not want that. They want the Privy Council, which is an English Privy Council, appointed, as the Minister has pointed out, by British politicians, to interfere in these matters. They wanted that the English Privy Council should decide on these questions. As far as I can understand it, this is a carefullylaid plot to enmesh us in this fiction. If the Minister had extended his views a little further and referred to the other as a domestic case I should be better pleased. I must say as to the question as to whether the League of Nations or the Privy Council is the best for this country, that both are practically under the domination of English Ministers. If English Ministers wished, they could have a decision suitable to them equally from the League of Nations as from the Privy Council. Our only hope and reliance is on our strength and on our alliance with the other Dominions who may help us. Nevertheless I do say I am glad that the Minister has brought forward this Bill, and I entirely disagree with what Senator Brown has said on the matter.

From the very lucid exposition of the Minister and the remarks of Senator Brown, one who is not a lawyer can form a very clear view of what has occurred. Senator Brown said that though he objected to the form and substance of the Bill, he agreed that the appeal before the House in that case of Lynham v. Butler should not go before the Privy Council. It is evident that we must have some machinery, some method of saving us from the overwillingness of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council to consider the findings of the Supreme Court—in other words, we must protect the supremacy of our Courts—our High Court and the Supreme Court—from the overwillingness of this body which sits in England and purports to be the final word of the Supreme Court in this country. It was Senator Brown's statement that made me definitely agree with the wisdom of the Minister on the matter of this Bill. Otherwise there is nothing to prevent the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council welcoming an appeal from every finding of the Irish courts. From what Senator Brown says it would not be too much to call this an impertinence on the part of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. Behind this question there are others which may be called the right of the subject, and so forth, and I do feel that this is rather a cumbersome method of dealing with the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. But we have got to protect ourselves, and though it is cumbersome to bring in a retroactive Bill, it is the only method at our disposal for eight years or until such time as the Constitution can be put more into line with the dignity of this country.

It would be far more dignified to hit out from the shoulder and to tell the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council that they will have to keep their hands off the findings of the Irish Courts. England is a country that finds itself extremely ready to tell the other nations of the world that the troubles with some of her allied nations are domestic questions. Therefore we should be equally sharp in saying that this is equally with us a domestic question, especially as Senator Brown has said that it is not a case that should go before the Privy Council. I do think that it was wrong for the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council to find that this was a case that should go before them. If this were a precedent there would be no end to the cumbersome cases going before the Committee of the Privy Council. The passing of this Bill is the only method which we could adopt to deal with the matter, and therefore I hope that the stamina of the Oireachtas will succeed in blocking any further appeals to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council which has no control over domestic matters in this country.

I would like to say a few words on this Bill, and in doing so I want to say that I find myself in a great difficulty in dealing with it. I know some of the history in connection with the Lynham v. Butler case. I have known Mr. Francis Lynham for 30 years. I have known him to be a poor man whose family held a farm just outside the County Dublin for generations. And working there for generations, they turned what was bad land into something like good land. This land passed from one member of the family to another, and by the accident of circumstances a lease was granted by the holder of the land in 1920. She could only lease it for the period of her life. Subsequent to the passing of the Land Act of 1923 this matter came before the courts here. And, by the way, I may say that I was foolish enough to imagine that Land Acts in this country were passed for the protection of poor people. I was foolish enough to believe that until I became familiar with the case of Lynham v. Butler. Now I think I will have to alter my opinion on the matter when we consider the whole circumstances of this case. I am not a lawyer, and I cannot deal with the law. The Minister in his speech mentioned something about the equity of the case. It is the equity of the case that I am considering now. If the law is not just it should be altered. At the same time, I should say my difficulty is this—and I told Mr. Lynham I could not support him in his endeavour to appeal to the Privy Council from our courts—I believe with the Minister for Justice that our courts must be supreme. At the same time, I urge that if there is an Act on our Statutes that prevents Mr. Lynham from getting justice in our courts, it is the duty of the Minister for Agriculture to pass an amending Bill to the 1923 Act and so prevent the continuance of this injustice.

I think any member of the House who goes into this particular case, and acquaints himself with the circumstances, will have to agree that all the equity is on the side of this poor Dublin workingman, Francis Lynham, as against the parish priest—who has gone into possession of a farm which belonged to the family of Lynham for generations, and who, by no stretch of the imagination, could be held to be entitled to it in justice. As I said before, I do not understand the Land Act, but I want to state here what I hold are the views of the plain, common people on this question. In all seriousness I suggest to the Minister—and we will support him in any measure aiming at establishing the supremacy of our courts—that if our courts cannot be just and equitable to a poor man he should introduce a Bill, retroactive and retrospective, so that they should have power to mete out justice to a poor workingman such as Francis Lynham. I must congratulate the Minister on the manner in which he presented his case. The Minister, in making his case, left no doubt in the mind of any person as to what our attitude should be in regard to this prerogative of the King. He referred to the fount and origin of justice. The fount and origin of justice in this country should be our courts, but I want to say here and now that, in the minds of the poor people, more particularly in view of recent decisions in our courts, there is one law for the rich and another for the poor.

It is nearly time that the Ministry took serious notice of what is happening around them. If one man is poor and commits a certain offence he is liable to ten years' imprisonment and to be flogged, but if another man, who is rich and well-connected, commits the same offence, he is liable to be acquitted. We all hope that our people, one and all, will have respect for the justice and the decisions of our court, but we expect that the poor man and the rich man will be met with the same justice. In view of recent decisions in our courts there is a growing feeling amongst the poor that justice is not being done in our courts and that there is one code of law for the rich and another for the poor. I suggest to the Minister that he should take notice of that. I would also suggest to him that the facts presented to him show that a glaring injustice has been done to this poor man, and that some steps should be taken, apart from re-imbursing him for the losses he has sustained in taking this case before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, to see that justice is done to him, and that a poor man like him should not be deprived by any flaw in our Land Act of the justice to which he is legally and morally entitled.

I quite agree with Senator Farren and the speakers who preceded him in what they have said regarding the verdict given in this case by the Supreme Court. I have read the evidence and, as far as layman can understand these weighty legal points, it is a perfectly correct verdict. I am also fully in agreement with those who say that this was not a case which should have been taken to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. At the same time I felt, when I first heard that the Government were rushing post-haste with legislation between the lodging of the appeal and the hearing of it, that it was rather a large order. It is all very well to say that the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council should not admit any case. I agree they should not, but under the terms of the Constitution it cannot be disputed that they have the right and the power to do so, in the absence of any limitation in accordance with the unwritten understanding which the Minister tells us existed at the time these negotiations took place. If there was any such safeguard, I should have thought that Ministers would have realised that Lord Chancellors would not always have the same political complexion and that the honest intention of one would not necessarily be carried out by his successors.

What I am not able to understand is why the Government did not allow this case to go forward and to be decided over the corpus vile of the unfortunate Lynham v. Butler. It seems to me that they would have stood to win in either case. Even if the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council had given a decision adverse to the decision of the Irish Court, surely the case for the revision of the Constitution would have been absolutely irresistible, and the revision would have been carried immediately so that nothing of the same kind could occur again. If, on the other hand, they upheld the decision of the Irish Courts all would have been well, at all events for the time being, and the Minister might watch for the next possible indiscretion of the Judicial Committee and pounce upon them when it took place. It does seem a pity that this is being done and, to adopt the phraseology of Senator Gogarty, that the Government did not in this case really hit straight out from the shoulder by going over the Constitution and amending it as required instead of adopting this roundabout method.

Like previous speakers, I sympathise with the spirit which induced the Minister for Justice to bring in this Bill. I deplore the form in which it has been introduced and the procedure which has been adopted to deal with what is a big constitutional question. I think it is a roundabout, cumbersome and humiliating method of dealing with this matter. Why, as Senator the Earl of Kerry asks, has it not been dealt with through the Constitution? The Constitution is an Act of the Oireachtas; it is not a Treaty between Great Britain and Ireland. There is nothing, as far as I can remember, in the Treaty which makes it incumbent upon the Constitution to provide each citizen with the right of appeal to the Privy Council. If that is so—the Minister may say it is otherwise, it is just my reading of it—why cannot the Constitution be amended in a direct way instead of dealing with it in this roundabout, indirect method? It is like running up a tree when a person is attacked and waiting until the attacker goes away instead of coming down and facing the attacker and disarming him. It seems to me that we are likely to be presented with a position such as this time and again. What is there to prevent another litigant under this Act appealing on any issue and getting leave to appeal to the Privy Council? Will the Minister have to deal with the matter by coming in with another Bill of this kind? I do not know where it is going to end if, on every occasion when a litigant is going to go forward to the Privy Council, on some point which the Minister or the Government considers he should not go forward, the only way we can meet it is to amend our own Acts. Then I think we are going to cut a very sorry figure. Moreover, what is the need of introducing this Bill at all unless there are serious doubts in the minds of Ministers as to the soundness of the decisions of the Irish courts?

Surely if they were convinced that the Irish courts gave a sound decision, interpreting the mind of the Oireachtas in passing this Act, then there was a need to amend that Act, in order to relieve doubt in the minds of the Ministers and judges. It is certainly putting doubt at least on the soundness of the judgment itself if this is to act retrospectively, and there is hardly any necessity for saying anything in regard to the undesirability of retrospective legislation. I would point out that Senator Brown spoke on the evil of that, and for that reason, I hope, when another Bill comes forward which proposes to act retrospectively and with which, I think, he has something to do, he will take up the same attitude. In order to solve this constitutional question it is quite possible we are going to do an injustice to a number of people in the country. In the minds of most people, we are doing an injustice to a particular man, Francis Lynham, in this case. From what Senator Brown told us, the sentiment of justice in this particular case will be on the side of the plaintiff. It makes us feel that Christianity had better be taught more by precept and less by example if one of its ministers becomes a land grabber. Why does not the Minister for Justice introduce a Bill that would make good the claim of the plaintiff in this matter. It would be a far fairer way of meeting the case, and it would be more just. The Oireachtas could declare as law that the plaintiff is entitled to possession. That would be a way of meeting the case, and it would render appeals to the Privy Council unnecessary and do justice. This is not, in my opinion, giving effect to the wishes of the Oireachtas when the Land Act was passed through and became law.

Are we going to pass this Bill for constitutional purposes, dealing in a cumbersome and a piecemeal way with what should be done by an amendment of the Constitution? I am absolutely opposed to appeals to the Privy Council on questions of this kind and indeed on all questions of this nature I think our courts should be absolutely supreme. But I think the Minister would have commanded the respect of the whole community and of all classes and sections of opinion if he faced this issue squarely and in a manly way and dealt with it in a constitutional way. I think the country is quite able to face this issue and that the British Government would not be entitled to take and indeed I do not think they would feel justified in taking, an exceedingly strong stand on the point. If the Government had acted in that way instead of this roundabout way we would have avoided doing an injustice to one citizen in this State and would have tended towards confirming the confidence of the people in the decisions of our courts. This is going to shake the confidence of our citizens in the decisions of our courts very seriously. Other retrospective legislation will have to come along to deal with other cases, and if that is going to be the position I do not think we are going to bring about that state of affairs calculated to create the stability which we hear so much about and to encourage people to invest money in industrial undertakings and take an interest in industrial revival. I cannot vote against this Bill. I feel I must vote for it because no other way has been given of preventing this particular appeal to the Privy Council, but I certainly deplore the fact that Ministers have not seen fit to take a more manly course in dealing with what is a very serious constitutional question.

I would like, first of all, to join with those who expressed appreciation of the clearness of the speech made by the Minister for Justice in introducing this subject. It was clear, frank and intelligent, so that there could be no possible misunderstanding in the minds of anyone who heard the speech as to what object the Executive had in introducing this Bill. Senator Brown was also very clear in the attitude he took up, and I think it is of considerable importance that the Senate should if possible see its way to adopt the suggestion made by Senator Brown, to pass this Bill without a division. There are natural misgivings on the part of many Senators as to the form of this Bill. I do not propose to follow Senator Brown in his objections to the form. I recognise there is much in what he said, but I disagree with him to this extent. He feels that the form of the Bill makes the Bill a menace to the independence of our courts. I feel that, in spite of the form, if we were to defeat the Bill it would mean a menace from a different source to the independence of our courts, and for that reason I wish some other way could be found. Though I recognise there is much in the arguments used by Senator Brown, at the same time I feel bound to support the Bill.

I should like to say I do not agree at all with the suggestion made by the Earl of Kerry that we are concerned as to whether or not a judgment of the Supreme Court was or was not a good one. I think he did not fully understand what Senator Brown said with reference to the judgment as a reason why leave to appeal to the Privy Council should not have been given. Also I differ definitely with Senator O'Farrell. I do not think that this Bill is a suggestion of the incompetence of our courts. I presume what he means is, there is a fear lest the case be taken to another court. Now, it seems to me that to have a fear of another court of judges who had not studied, and who have no experience in our specific legislation is not in any way a reflection upon our courts. I mention these things merely to point out that I do not think they are relevant. It seems to me that there are two questions before the Seanad in this Bill. The first is, that it is a desirable thing to make it clear that in the opinion of the Irish Free State the constitutional usage and practice, at present existing in the British Commonwealth, does not provide for appeals in matters of domestic concern, and the second is that if we are clear upon that point, and wish to support that view, can we then support a Bill of this kind for the purpose of making it clear? I have sympathy for those who doubt whether they can support a Bill of this kind for that purpose. For my own part, I cannot go against the Bill because I feel so strongly upon the other matters.

The Minister, in introducing the Bill, gave several extracts to show what was the general accepted constitutional usage in the British Commonwealth at the time when this matter was discussed between our Ministers and British Ministers. He also referred to certain assurances given to him. I wish he had not referred to those assurances, because I do not think they are worth anything. If they had been contrary to the usages and practice of the British Commonwealth they would not have been worth anything. I have heard it remarked that other assurances were given to other persons. I entirely agree with the claims that the constitutional usage as it then stood in the case of South Africa, as proclaimed by the then government in South Africa and the present government in South Africa, and as asserted by experts in constitutional law, such as Duncan Hall and Professor Berriedale Keith, the latter a British expert and recognised as an authority on the Commonwealth usage, should apply here. They assert that in all matters of domestic concern an appeal would not be granted, and would not lie, as of right, but only on special leave, and that that special leave would not, in accordance with constitutional usage, be granted by the Privy Council. On that matter I believe our position is perfectly clear. In connection with that I would like to draw attention to a letter written by Professor Berriedale Keith, and written with specific reference to the Constitution of the Irish Free State. This letter was written to "The Times" referring to certain details of the Irish Constitution which had then been published. I will not read the whole of the letter but only portion of it that has reference to the matters in this Bill. He said in connection with Article 66:—

"The only safeguard for the observance of the Constitution will be the Irish Court with a possible appeal by special leave to the King in Council. Attempts to safeguard this appeal are made but inadequately; the essential provision that decisions by the King in Council shall be binding on Irish courts is omitted and, as Australian precedent shows, cannot be assumed. Further, the Constitution leaves it utterly vague whether the right of appeal may be abolished by the Irish Parliament. Can Ireland be denied a right expressly recognised in the case of Australia and the Union of South Africa? Is the Constitution as worded sufficient to deny it?"

The position, it seems to me, in which we find ourselves is—whether inadvertently or deliberately I am not concerned with, but let us assume inadvertently—that the present Privy Council has granted leave in a case which, according to the general opinion of experts and the consensus of opinion in the British Commonwealth, is not a case in which leave to appeal should have been granted in accordance with usage. The issue before us is not whether, by consent of the British Commonwealth or otherwise, we wish to abolish appeals to the Privy Council. The immediate issue at present is what action can be taken. I have doubts as to whether this particular Bill is the best way, but I have no doubt that specific action by way of protest should have been taken by the Executive Council, but as to how it should have been taken is clearly a matter for a difference of opinion.

On the larger question as to whether there should or should not be appeals in any matter, I cannot see the point put up by Senator Brown. I can quite understand that a case may arise, say, between ourselves and Canada in which it would be extremely convenient to have a legal court. I do not think that the Privy Council as at present constituted would be the best court to deal with that, for the very reason that it is chosen ad hoc by British politicians, though I am not suggesting that politics enter into its deliberations at all. It is undesirable that that body should hear matters in dispute between ourselves and Canada, but it is possible that the Imperial Conference may by consent arrange for some court which would hear appeals of this kind. I do not think, personally, that the Privy Council would be the best court for that purpose, and on that point I join issue with Senator Brown, but I agree with him that that is a matter which is quite different and apart from the case we are considering in connection with this Bill. I could not vote against this Bill, even if I disliked its form twice as much as I do, for I am afraid it would be given out in the various parts of the British Commonwealth that Seanad Eireann did not feel as strongly as many of them do with regard to appeals to the Privy Council.

With reference to suggestions as to amending the Constitution, and the exact meaning of the Constitution, in my very definite and considered judgment the worst thing that could possibly happen to the British Commonwealth would be to attempt to carry out to the strict letter the words of the Constitution of this State, or of Canada or Australia. I had the privilege of meeting in Geneva a large body of students from different Universities, and they pointed out to me, and I agreed with them, that there were inconsistencies in our own Constitution, and in the Canadian Constitution. They could not understand the relations between the two, and they could not understand Article 66, which seemed to contradict itself, or how it could be reconciled with Article 2, which says that all authority, legislative, executive and judicial, is derived from the people. My answer was that the British Commonwealth is like nothing else on earth. It can succeed and hold together when common sense is used to take the place of the written word, and it is my belief that if attempts are made to go back to old forms and carry them out, the British Commonwealth will break up. The clearer it is made that it is possible to have national, judicial and political independence and still retain membership of the Commonwealth, the much better chance is there of that Commonwealth retaining a useful place in the world. I am one of those who, before the Treaty, believed that political independence was possible in conjunction with the British Commonwealth, and I said it at the time of the Treaty, and I still believe it.

I do not agree with Senator Colonel Moore. The Senator seems to think that his views and national views are one and indivisible. I totally disagree with him in his extraordinary belief in the omnipotent power of the British Government. The Senator believes that they control our Executive, and the League of Nations, and that they completely control everybody except Senator Colonel Moore. I do not think if he were in any other European gathering that his words in regard to that would be listened to quite as peacefully as they have been in this House. I think very few agree with him, and I certainly do not. In conclusion, I would like to say I am glad that this matter came up for debate in the Dáil and Seanad, partly because it is a proof that we can and ought to assert our position on matters affecting our own independence in the Commonwealth. I believe our debates here will be read with very considerable interest in Canada, Australia and South Africa. I believe further that, to a very large extent, these Dominions are the guardians of our independence, and we, to a considerable extent, are the guardians of theirs, and the more we have of common concern and common action the better. If only for that reason, I am glad the matter has come up. While I recognise many of the arguments against the form of the Bill, I hope that too much emphasis, particularly outside the House, will not be placed upon them.

It has been suggested elsewhere, and I have a kind of feeling that it will be suggested in the debate which I see is to take place in another Parliament in the course of a week or two, that the move on the part of the Executive, which has the support of the two Houses, is a deliberate attempt to go back on our agreements made at the time of the Treaty, and our willingness to accept membership in the Commonwealth. I deny that. Mr. Hughes, of Australia, said it was his desire, and the general desire in Australia, that there should be no appeal on any matter whatever. He is what I am not, and that is an Imperialist. I think that we, in taking our stand on a matter of this kind, and taking it, as I hope we will, at the Imperial Conference, and with a clear understanding of what we are aiming at, are in no sense trying to break up to the Commonwealth by setting up the only standard by which the Commonwealth can hold together, and that is the standard of independence, politically and judicially.

I have never known a Bill in which it was so difficult to know what to do in regard to voting. There are things connected with the Bill that I would prefer to have done in another way. In bringing in the Bill I wish the Government had not dealt with some of the secret negotiations that went on in 1922. These things are probably necessary, but I do not like to see the Government of the Irish Free State founding a Bill upon negotiations of that kind. It seems as if they did not trust the Oireachtas to act correctly when a case was put before them. I do not think any member of the Seanad is going to vote one way or the other because of what Lord Chancellors of the day said to our Ministers when they were debating. We will vote as to whether we think the action of our own Government is right or not.

I am very jealous of the reputation of the Government of the Irish Free State, but I think the line of action they have taken with regard to this matter renders them open to the accusation that, whilst side-tracking this matter, they are taking away from the class of people to which I belong a right which they had. In Ireland we know our Government and we know our judges. There is no question of that kind before the Seanad at present, but there is a large body of public opinion outside this country and we are all jealous of the reputation of the Government in dealing with anything that affects the minority. It can be said that the line of action taken has not been straightforward; that this matter was brought up on a side issue; we know perfectly well that such was not the intention and that this Bill does not interfere in the slightest with the real rights of the minority or with any individual. But that would not be the meaning given to it owing to the manner in which the Government approached this matter.

They should have come forward directly and stated the difficulties of interpretation of an appeal to the Privy Council and brought in a special Bill to deal with it. They should state what their opinion was and what they wanted done. If Senators felt strongly one way or the other the matter could be decided on such an issue and not on the issue of the constitutional question. What they are asking the Seanad to do now is to give an interpretation of a law. I would not like it to go on record that I had voted for a Bill in which the Seanad had given an interpretation of a law. The way the matter is put now is that the Government want the Seanad to take action which will make it impossible for the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council to give a decision other than one that is in agreement with the decision of the Supreme Court of the State. I want the decision of the Supreme Court to be upheld but to ask Senators to interfere, knowing as little as we do about this matter, and say what any individual citizen's rights are, is not a use to which the vote of the Seanad should be put.

We are unable to consider points of law. To ask us to step into the position of the Judges and give a legal decision upon points of law is not a thing that we could do. Though I regret having to disagree with the Government I cannot give a vote which could be said to be an interpretation of an Act of Parliament because I believe if it is once done it might be made use of afterwards to prejudice the rights of the citizen and put it into a Government's power to use a political majority against the decision of the judges, just as the Government are now asking the Seanad to give a decision in favour of the judges' decision. For that reason I will not vote for the Bill, and, owing to the difficult position we have been placed in, I could not under the circumstances vote against it.

I feel I must express my appreciation of the manner in which the Bill has been received and considered by Senators. I did not expect, naturally, coming before the Seanad with a Bill of this kind, that there would be unanimity, or anything approaching unanimity, with regard to the necessity or the advisability of this kind of legislation. I recognise that it is exceptional legislation. I endeavoured to show that there were exceptional circumstances which the Government considered adequate to justify the introduction of such legislation. I quoted precedents in other countries and Parliaments for the introduction of just such legislation as this. Senators ought not to be unduly humble even vis-a-vis the courts. When a Senator says he shrinks from seeming to put himself in the position of interpreting the law by declaring what the law is, I have to remind him that Parliament has and must have at all times the right of passing such legislation as this declaratory legislation. It is a right that has been exercised times out of number by the British Parliament and which will be exercised in the future. These cases, I have quoted, ought to have been adequate to convince Senators of that. When Parliament declared, in the teeth af a majority of judges, in the Territorial Waters Act that

"the right jurisdiction of Her Majesty her heirs and successors, extends and has always extended over the open seas adjacent to the coast of the United Kingdom,"

was that interpreting a law or was it declaring what the law always was, and was it declaring, in the teeth of a decision to the contrary by a majority of the judges in the court, when they passed other retroactive legislation, that the law is and had always been such and such, even when the courts had decided to the contrary, or even when there were cases pending on that particular issue before the courts? Were they taking the power of declaring the state of the law out of the hands of judges, for reasons which they considered, and which they put it to the representatives of the people, ought to be adequate? When in the Bolt v. Bank of England case they stood in the position of collecting millions of pounds illegally they had no hesitation in hurling a Bill through their Houses to say that was all right and to justify it retroactively.

Granted, there are limits, and I grant that it should only be in the most exceptional cases that an action of this kind should be taken. The Government and the Parliament must keep their hands free should a situation arise that would warrant them taking just such action as we are taking now, and that is why I feel I ought not, even by silence on the point, to seem to agree with the point of view that it is something monstrous, unconstitutional and unprecedented for a Government to ask the parliament to which it answers to declare that the law lies in such a way.

Senator Moore did not surprise me. I think I have reached the stage when Senator Moore could not surprise me. I could probably have written down, before he spoke, all the things he was going to say. I know Senator Moore by heart. He has contracted rather an acute attack of anglophobia, late in life, and I seldom expect to find myself in line with the Senator as long as he confuses anglophobia with patriotism. I expect to find myself in a different camp. There are two cases admitted to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. One is the civil service case, Wigg v. Cochrane. No action has been taken on that. You expressed the view here that as long as an appeal is to lie at all, as long as this antagonism is to go on, the case of Wigg v. Cochrane is just such a case as might, with propriety, be admitted. Why? Because it arises from an instrument which is not only the concern of this State and this Government. The Wigg v. Cochrane case has its roots and origin in Article X of the Treaty, and as long as an appeal lies at all to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, it is in matters which raise issues that are not purely domestic issues, that it can lie and be admitted and that a petition could be admitted with propriety. Issues affecting the relations inter se of the States who are members of the British Commonwealth might be considered as issues that would be properly and legitimately admitted.

No one suggests there is anything of that complexion in the case of Lynham v. Butler. It is a domestic case arising from purely domestic legislation. I have to be careful in challenging the Lynham v. Butler case and the propriety of this admission. I have to guard against the implication, at any rate, that we do value, in certain other kinds of cases, the appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, and that we do see a utility in it. Clearly the Executive Council sees no value or utility in that appeal at all. That is something which does not arise by necessity in this Bill. It is a side issue. But I would like to state the position. We consider that particular appeal an anachronism, something that dates back to the time before the Dominions achieved their present status of coequality with Britain. It is a remnant and dates back to the day when the Government and Parliament of Britain purported to exercise some real legislative and executive authority over the Dominions, and we share the growing feeling in the Dominions that it ought to go. Again let me remind Senators that is something not essentially arising from this Bill.

The Judicial Committee of the Privy Council has little to recommend it if you take it for what it is—a court, and neither more nor less. It is a court selected ad hoc by a politician. It is a court which, from the very nature of the position, cannot have knowledge of all the facts that are relevant and important to the consideration of a particular case. It is a court which almost of necessity cannot be familiar with the law on which it is asked to pronounce, and, finally, it is a most expensive court. There are three elements in respect to every case: the facts, the law, and the costs, and whether you consider it as a court to decide on facts or a court to construe and interpret the law, when the last word is said, it has no attractions. Glancing through the verbatim report of the hearing of this very case, you find such references as one of the members of the court asking Counsel “What was the provision of the Irish Land Acts, with which, of course, we are not familiar, which enables such and such a thing to be done?” If Justice Fitzgibbon leaned across the Supreme Court here and, addressing a Counsel, referred to the Irish Land Acts, “with which, of course, we are not familiar,” there would be a scene in the court. Solicitors would faint and barristers would be agitated.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I have survived it. I have heard it 200 times and survived it.

I submit also that statements of facts or statements purporting to be facts can pass muster before a court of that kind which would not pass muster here, and which if they were not taken up by counsel would have to be taken up by the bench— such statements as this, for instance:—"That is the Land Act of 1923, which was passed two and a half years ago, and it will be a very long time indeed before the tenancy of the land existing at the date of the passing of the Act will have been vested." That statement was made before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. That statement passed muster there, and yet the position is that 6,700 holdings representing an acreage of 292,080 acres have been vested or gazetted. So that you had an important statement passing muster there— a statement which is widely at variance with the facts. All that can arise later and the desirability or the undesirability can be decided and discussed in another place. Here we are content to ask the verdict from the two Houses of our Parliament that the particular case admitted to hearing by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council was not rightly admitted. Nothing is being done, no gesture, as Senator Brown calls it, is being made in respect to the other case. As long as the appeal lies, the other case is just such a case as could be admitted. There seems no reason for the admittance of the case of Lynham v. Butler, except we are to get back to the position that appeals lie as of course to such appellate jurisdiction as existed in the past in relation to the House of Lords. There is rather too much talk about the poor man. I am sorry that Senator Farren brought the discussion down to the level of individual interest in this particular case. But when he did it there was rather too much talk about the poor man. I hope I will never be poorer than the man who has 700 acres of land and shooting rights.

He has not got it. That is the point.

His case was tried not twice but in fact three times. The issue in this particular case was tried three times. Before the death of the tenant for life it was tried before Judge Wylie in his capacity as Land Judge and the plaintiff lost. After the death of the tenant for life it came to the High Court and again the plaintiff lost. Next it came before the Supreme Court and the plaintiff lost. Now Senator Farren made play with the word "equity." He said if the Act as it stood did not do Mr. Lynham justice, "Let there be another Act." You cannot bring in legislation to cover a special kind of case that can arise. You could not possibly hope so to frame your legislation as to exclude all possibility of hard cases arising under it. If the Senator thinks you can, we would like suggestions, and we would like to see Bills framed with a view to excluding all possibility of cases arising in which the equities would lie in a contrary direction from the law. It just so happens that the state of the law as it has been found to be hereby the Judges seems to press hardly on one of the parties. If the law were otherwise than what it is, would there be no party on whom it would press hardly? Would you not have cases excluded from the provisions of the Act, merely by the accident of a particular estate being excluded, because the representatives had not administered in time or merely by the accident of the case not being reached, or because the tenant died this week and the estate only vested the week after?

Substantially the issue in this case was tried by three competent tribunals here. The case was decided by these tribunals. We suggest that finality should lie here within our own State. Even Senators who criticise the form of the Bill seem inclined to agree with the view that it is undesirable that any thing arising out of ordinary domestic litigation here, raising no issues which transcend the jurisdiction of the State, should be carried elsewhere, so that the last word may not be said in the construction and the interpretation of such laws by people who live elsewhere.

There is just one further matter I want to refer to. That is the suggestion that has not been made in either House, but which nevertheless has been made, that the effect of this Bill is in some way an infringement of the rights of some undefined minority. That suggestion—and I think it is creditable— has not been made either in the Dáil or the Seanad, but let us examine it. It contains implications of a most offensive nature either to the Supreme Court or to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. If it means anything it can only mean either that the Supreme Court here cannot be relied upon to do impartial justice, impersonal justice, in every issue, or else that the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council can be relied upon to do otherwise. Let Senators examine it. The suggestion that this Bill represents an infringement on the rights of the minority must mean one or the other of these two things—either that this undefined minority cannot feel that they will get justice on any or every issue from the Supreme Court of this State, or else that for some vague reason it may be considered that they will get something more than justice from the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council.

Analysed carefully, that suggestion with regard to minority rights and so on, is an offensive suggestion either to our own courts or to the Privy Council. I do not believe that that implication is true. I do not believe that the Supreme Court here cannot be relied upon to do impartial justice on every issue, nor do I believe that the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council would in any case or for any consideration do more or less than justice; but those who make the suggestion, the particular organ of the Press that made the suggestion, ought to examine it and see what its implications are. Senator O'Farrell seems difficult to please. He was one of those who agreed with the end which we were aiming at, and he criticised the means we were adopting. He said we should have taken the manly way. He was careful to avoid any definiteness of what his conception is of the manly way in this set of circumstances. Presumably we must wait until Senator O'Farrell has responsibilities which we at present have, to appreciate fully what his conception of manliness in Government is.

To amend the Constitution.

To amend it within the Treaty?

The Constitution as it stands.

Send in your draft Bill to amend the Constitution within the Treaty, which will clear up this particular issue.

The Minister forgets that those who drew up the Constitution did not include this.

The special correspondent of the "Morning Post" may help him.

Thank you very much. That does not help in any way. The particular kind of difficulty and the particular kind of issue raised by this case, was considered in all its bearings by the Executive Council. The means we are adopting to meet it has been criticised and it is due to the Seanad that I should say that we saw no other satisfactory method of dealing with the particular situation that had been created. This method, at any rate, saves the position that arose out of that particular case. It will prevent the case of Lynham v. Butler going as an open issue to be actually tried by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. It is hoped that by the time the case comes before the Privy Council this Bill will be law, and it will be simply for the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council automatically to rule with the two tribunals here that have already decided this. After that, then the danger has been averted, the erosion has been stopped, and it leaves the position open to be taken up at the proper time and in the proper place as to the exact limits that should be set if this appeal is to survive, and it can be discussed further. But if this petty, trumpery, domestic case went as an open issue to the Privy Council then a bad precedent, a disastrous precedent, would have been set in this matter. Remember, so far no petitions have been admitted from this State. Three, brought in 1923, were rejected. These two have been admitted, and no exception is being taken to the Wiggs and Cochrane case, the Civil Service case, but we are taking the greatest exception to the admission of the case of Lynham v. Butler, and we ask the Seanad, with the Dáil, to assist us in taking what we deem to be the most effective protest against that admission.

May I say a word of personal explanation. The Minister confuses criticism of British Ministers with anglophobia; I have said nothing against England, where I have lived a great part of my life, or against English people, among whom I have many friends, and with whom I have never had a quarrel. British Ministers are, no doubt, working for their own country but not for Ireland. He says I have adopted these principles late in life, whereas I have held them and advocated them all my life, as everyone knows who knows me at all. Evidently he does not know me, and is not as clever as he thinks.

Before the question is put, would the Minister be good enough to explain, for the enlightenment of myself and some others, what is likely to happen in the event of this Bill passing and the Privy Council deciding against the views of the courts here?

CATHAOIRLEACH

Do you want him to prophesy?

I should like some information on the point.

I am very glad that the Minister has referred to the Civil Service case which has gone before the Privy Council. I am sure his statement will clear up any misunderstandings, and will be welcomed by a very large section of the Civil Service.

Question—"That the Bill be read a second time"—put and agreed to.
The Seanad went into Committee.
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