This Bill is certified by the Ceann Comhairle of the Dáil as a Money Bill.
APPROPRIATION BILL, 1926—THIRD STAGE.
The Seanad went into Committee.
CATHAOIRLEACH
Sections 1, 2, 3 and 4 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Schedule (A) agreed to.
SCHEDULE (B)—PART II.
Sub-head 8: For Capital for the Local Loans Fund and to make repayment to the British Government in respect of local loans outstanding, £1,186,900.
I move as a recommendation:
"To delete Sub-head 8, Schedule (B)—Part II."
With regard to this recommendation there is a slight mistake in it, as it appears on the Order Paper. My motion was to leave out all the words after the word "fund" in the first line, whereas as it is put down on the Order Paper it means to leave out the whole paragraph. I do not suppose it matters very much.
CATHAOIRLEACH
I suppose not.
This question of local loans and their payment to the British Government comes under exactly the same heading as land purchase annuities, which were discussed at some considerable length yesterday. As the arguments are exactly the same in each case, I do not think it is either necessary or desirable to go over them again, more especially as the matter was discussed last year in the presence of the Minister for Finance. Perhaps the Minister may be able to give us an answer now as to what legal authority there is for sending these funds over to Great Britain.
I think it would be desirable that this item, which really consists of two, should be segregated and that we ought to know how much of this money was to be applied to the capital sum of the loans and how much for repayment to the British Government in respect of the loans outstanding. I also call attention to the different sums mentioned here. There is a sum of £1,186,000 in the Bill, whereas in the Estimates voted by the Dáil the sum is given as £786,900. I think these figures should be explained.
I do not know whether I can add anything to what was said the last time in answer to Senator Colonel Moore. I am sure that anything I could say would not convince him.
Nothing has been said. That is what I complain of.
With regard to the point Senator Linehan has raised, the sum for capital for local loan is £500,000, and the remainder is the amount repayable to the British Treasury. These loans were advances out of local funds for various purposes and they are being repaid to the local loans fund and we collect and transmit them. That is the position. I do not know whether anything I could say would be of any use to Senator Moore. I think I would despair of convincing him.
Would the Minister explain the discrepancy between the £1,186,000 and the £786,900?
Where did the Senator find the £786,000?
In the Estimates for Public Services.
That leaves out the amount already incorporated in the Central Fund Bill, voted on account on the 31st March. The difference was voted before the 31st March on account.
I think that is a very cavalier manner of treating the question I raised. My point has been stated on several occasions in this House. It is a legal, technical argument for which there is considerable basis, and several Senators said yesterday they thought an answer should be given one way or another as to whether this money is due to the British Government or not. All the Minister said on the last occasion was that he considered himself bound morally and legally to pay, but he gave no legal argument for it, whereas I gave a carefully thought-out legal argument. I may be wrong, but I think it is only fair an answer should be given. If the Minister is not giving an answer he leaves the supposition in the country that the money is not due, because on several occasions we were unable to have any answer whatever on the matter.
CATHAOIRLEACH
On the other hand it is only fair to say that the Ministers are under the delusion that they have answered it.
It is certainly a delusion, because when the Minister was asked about the matter last year he said he considered himself morally and legally bound to pay this money. That is all he had to say, and that is not an argument.
CATHAOIRLEACH
It is not an argument, but it is an answer.
It is a statement but not an answer, so that the Minister must take the responsibility for anything I say in the country.
I would not take responsibility for anything the Senator might say.
We can leave it at that. I am satisfied.
Recommendation, by leave, withdrawn.
I am very anxious to thank the Minister for the grant he made to the Abbey Theatre.
Schedule (B.) agreed to.
The Seanad went out of Committee. Bill reported without amendment.