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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Jan 1927

Vol. 8 No. 3

CORONERS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 1926—FROM THE DAIL.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I have to call the attention of the House to the somewhat complicated position in which this Bill now stands. You will recollect that originally a former member of the House, Senator De Loughry, introduced a Coroners Bill. The Bill was rather a skeleton one. The House did not consider it satisfactory. It was withdrawn and a new Bill, on more extensive lines, was introduced as a result of reference to a Select Committee which went into the matter. That new Bill was passed through all its stages in this House and then was sent to the Dáil. In the Dáil there were a number of amendments made to the Bill, none of them interfering with the substance of the Bill. They were, more or less, of a drafting nature, not touching the root of the Bill at all. Now, the Bill has been sent back to us from the Dáil. The question is: How are we to deal with it? The position is rendered a little difficult owing to Article 39 of the Constitution, which prescribes that any Bill initiated in the Seanad, but amended by Dáil Eireann, shall be considered as a Bill initated in Dáil Eireann. That would look as if, when the Bill comes to us now from the other House, we were bound to treat it in every respect as if we never heard of it before—treat it de novo. I do not think that was the intention of the Article. The intention, I think, was to give to any such Bill, initated in the Seanad, the same position as if it had been originated in the Dáil for the purposes of the periods which are to follow before it becomes law. That was plainly the intention— to enable the periods fixed for measures passed by both Houses to come into operation: the period as regards submission to the Governor-General for signature, the period that may elapse if this House fails to consider it, or if amendments are put in to which the other House do not agree.

This clause was intended to apply all these periods to all Bills, whether originated in the Seanad or in the Dáil. But in its literal interpretation—I have always endeavoured to interpret the Constitution literally and to follow its strict letter—the Article would amount to this: that we would have to consider the Bill de novo. But the method of consideration is not imposed on us by the Constitution. It is subject to our own Standing Orders. We have a Standing Order, No. 92, which prescribes that in the case of any Bill, no matter in which House initiated, which comes back to this House amended by the Dáil, consideration of that Bill in this House has to be confined to the amendments. Therefore, I propose that you consider the amendments to this Bill to-day. I do not think you are likely to have much difference of opinion as regards these amendments. They do not interfere with the principle of the Bill. If you are satisfied to agree with them, I shall ask you to pass the Bill, because you have never had it before you in its present shape until now. It is not exactly the same Bill as the Bill you passed. In order to comply with the provisions of Article 39, I shall ask you, when you have disposed of the amendments, to receive the Bill for final consideration and to pass it. As it is a private member's measure, motions to agree with or reject amendments will have to be put to the House.

I move:—"That the Seanad agree with the Dáil in Amendment No. 1":

Before Section 5 a new section inserted as follows, viz.:—

Every person residing within a coroner's district shall be liable to serve on the jury at any inquest held in that district whether he is or is not a householder, and whether he is or is not rated to the relief of the poor, save only such persons as are for the time being, for some reason other than lack of rateable qualifications, not liable to, or disqualified for, or exempted from, service on juries in the courts of justice.

This amendment deals with the liability of a citizen to serve on a coroner's jury. It might have been put in more simple or more easily understood language, but it is a proper amendment.

I second the motion.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I suggest it might be desirable to amend it. I confess that, as it stands, I do not understand it. What it is intended to mean is that nobody should be compelled to serve on a coroner's jury if, under some existing statute, he was exempted from serving on juries. If that is the intention, all that is required to be said is: "or other persons exempted by statute from service on juries." Instead of that, it is put in a form which is puzzling to me.

The qualification up to now has been rather a special qualification. The person had to be a householder and rated to the relief of the poor in the sum of £4. We want to abolish that.

CATHAOIRLEACH

That is quite right. The only point I think unintelligible is: "save only such persons as are for the time being, for some reason other than lack of rateable qualifications, not liable to, or disqualified , or exempted from, service on juries in the courts of justice."

What we mean is that anyone not liable for general jury service is exempt from coroner's jury service.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I am sure that is what you meant. Would it not be better to have: "save only such persons as are by Statute exempt from service on juries." All that phraseology about "other than lack of rateable qualifications" is likely to confuse. It is only a matter of drafting, and perhaps if you think it worth while to amend it you will do it in the other House.

It is meant to relieve barristers, doctors and solicitors.

CATHAOIRLEACH

They are exempt by Statute.

I do not think any coroner could go wrong in construing it, but it is awkward English.

CATHAOIRLEACH

Who are the people who are disqualified? I never heard of anyone disqualified. I heard of people exempted from service, but I never heard of anyone disqualified. If exemption means the same thing, why put in all those words? However, there may be some reason for putting it in the way it is.

Why I am reluctant to pronounce upon the drafting is that it is Mr. Matheson's drafting.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I do not want you to pronounce upon it now.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Seanad agree with the Dáil in amendment No. 2:—

In Section 11 (3), line 55, the words "not less than ten guineas" deleted, and the words "a sum not exceeding ten guineas, or such larger sum as the coroner shall with the approval of the Minister for Justice determine" inserted.

This is the section which fixed the fee for a doctor who attended in the country at an inquest to give expert evidence. The Bill makes what was a minimum of ten guineas a maximum. That is, under the Bill as it left this House, the doctor would have got a minimum of ten guineas. Now it provides that he is to get a fee not exceeding ten guineas, but it puts in a saving clause that he may get such larger sum as the Minister for Justice may determine. He is fairly well protected.

I second the motion.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Seanad agree with the Dáil in amendment No. 3:—

In Section 12 (2), page 6, line 15, the words "and giving" deleted, and the words "to give" inserted therefor.

I second the motion.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Seanad agree with the Dáil in amendment No. 4:—

In Section 13, sub-section (4) deleted.

I second the motion.

This amendment has a bearing on Amendment 11. This sub-section shows how one particular expense is to be met, and the only reason for deleting it is that Amendment 11 is of a general nature showing how they are provided for.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Seanad agree with the Dáil in amendment No. 5:—

In Section 15, sub-section (1) deleted and a new sub-section inserted as follows:—

(1) The office of Coroner shall be deemed to be an office to which the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926 (No. 39 of 1926) applies, and that Act shall apply accordingly with the modification that in relation to that office the expression "the Minister" in that Act shall mean the Minister for Justice.

I second the motion.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Seanad agree with the Dáil in amendment No. 6:—

Before Section 16 a new section inserted as follows:—

Notwithstanding anything contained in the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898, or in any other enactment, the administrative counties of Tipperary North Riding and Tipperary South Riding shall cease to be one county for all purposes relating to coroners, and each of the said counties shall be one county for such purposes.

This provides for the peculiar case of Tipperary and it is a perfectly proper amendment.

I second the motion.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Seanad agree with the Dáil in amendment No. 7:—

In Section 16 (1), line 65, after the word "shall" the words "subject to the approval of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health" inserted.

There can be no objection to giving a Minister the right to approve.

I second the motion.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Seanad agree with the Dáil in amendment No. 8:—

In Section 16 (1), page 6, line 66, the word "revise" deleted and the words "consider and, where it seems desirable to do so, shall alter." substituted therefor.

This is the only section that gave rise to any real discussion in the Dáil and they thought our use of the word "revise" necessitated an increase in the salaries. That, I think, is not so, but they have altered it, so that there can be no doubt that there would be no necessity for a local body to increase the salary of the coroner when they examine it. They can leave it as it is but they cannot diminish it.

CATHAOIRLEACH

Is that quite right? Surely they have power to diminish under the words "consider and, where it seems desirable to do so, shall alter."

There is the additional provision: "Provided the salary of the Coroner shall be in no case diminished."

CATHAOIRLEACH

Then they are exactly where they were.

They have altered "revision" into "consider."

I second the motion.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Senate agree with the Dáil in amendment No. 9:—

In sub-section (2), lines 4 and 5, all words from the word "if" to the word "insufficient" deleted, and the words "If a coroner is aggrieved by the neglect or refusal of a council to examine his salary pursuant to sub-section (1) of this section or by the result of such examination inserted.

This amendment gives the right of appeal to the Coroner.

I second the motion.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Senate agree with the Dáil in amendment No. 10:—

Before Section 18 a new section inserted as follows, viz.:—

For the purposes of the appointment of a coroner or of the amalgamation of coroners' districts, any vacancy in the office of coroner existing at the time of the passing of this Act shall be deemed to have occurred immediately after the passing of this Act.

This amendment fixes the date of the existing vacancies, if there are any, at the passing of the Act.

I second the motion.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Senate agree with the Dáil in No. 11:

Before sub-section 21 a new section inserted as follows, viz.:—

Any fees or expenses payable under, or incurred in the execution of this Act shall be defrayed out of the like source as that out of which the expenses of a coroner were defrayed at the time of the passing of this Act.

This amendment provides for all the fees and expenses of every kind, and it is that which necessitated a previous amendment.

I second the motion.

Question put and agreed to.

I move that the Bill do now pass.

I second.

Question put and agreed to.
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