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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 28 Mar 1928

Vol. 10 No. 10

PRIVATE BUSINESS. - CENTRAL FUND BILL, 1928 (CERTIFIED BY THE CEANN COMHAIRLE OF THE DÁIL AS A MONEY BILL)—SECOND STAGE.

Question: "That the Bill be read a Second Time."

I would like to know if the Minister would give the House any indication of the policy of the Government with regard to the finding of the Committee on Unemployment, particularly in regard to its recommendations on the housing problem. That is a matter of course that involves finance and, to be effective, involves, I think, the floating of a housing loan. If anything is going to be done during the year 1928 it is essential that the Government should get a move on quickly because building is very largely a seasonal occupation and it is necessary that steps should be taken to utilise as far as possible the summer months and the finer portion of the year when we have long days and comparatively fine weather. This is an exceedingly important matter at the present time because by tackling this question we would help to solve two crying evils, the evil of the shortage of houses and the evil of unemployment. That Committee was set up to consider measures by which immediate steps could be taken to relieve unemployment. The Committee acted in that spirit, acted with the greatest possible expedition, and delivered its findings I think in record time. I hope the Minister will be able to assure the House now that its findings are not going to be hung up indefinitely. Statements are being made these days on public platforms in connection with a by-election regarding the alleged intentions of the Government in regard to this matter. It is a matter that affects the whole body of citizens and we would like to have some authoritative statement, not a platform statement, in regard to a matter of this kind. We have before us the example of the Australian Commonwealth. In his last Budget statement, the Minister for Finance there indicated that the State proposed to make available in the near future—I think he meant within the financial year—a sum of not less than £20,000,000 for housing purposes, to enable citizens to purchase or build their own houses and in addition to help local authorities and others to provide houses for the people. That was done by a State that has at present a public debt amongst all the States of the Commonwealth over one thousand millions sterling. We have a comparatively negligible debt and I do not know of any other commodity for which there is a more certain market than housing. That market is available whether the houses are cheap or dear, whether prices are reasonable or excessive. I do not know of any other purpose for which the Government could more readily or more successfully float a loan.

I think our credit is good enough for the flotation of a fairly substantial housing loan and I do not think it is helping the national credit for Ministers or members of their Party to state emphatically on public platforms that that credit is dependent on the result of one single by-election. I take it that it is quite fair to make reasonable statements at an election for the purpose of getting votes, but I do not think the credit of the State should be publicly pledged or be said to depend entirely on the result of a by-election. I hope whatever the result of the by-election be that the Government will take this finding of the Committee on unemployment seriously and try to act on the very statesmanlike and practical proposals submitted, the principal one of which was, the inauguration of a ten years' continuous housing programme which it was hoped would help to solve the housing problem and at the same time give employment to thousands of men at present out of work. That would be of infinitely more importance and be of more interest to the citizens as a whole, particularly to the unemployed men, than any decision as to who was responsible for the starting of the civil war. A tremendous amount of public time has been taken up recently discussing that question, but this all-important question of the present and the future is being shrouded and obscured while these discussions are taking place. It is time that someone demanded that we should deal with the wounds that were caused by that civil war rather than try to determine the impossibility as to who was responsible for it. I would like to know if the Minister can give any estimate as to what are the remaining liabilities with regard to the property compensation. In the Estimates I noticed that a sum of over £500,000 is put down for the current financial year. Can the Minister say if that is all that will be required, or can he state approximately what are our full liabilities there? It seems to me that anyone having any claim arising out of the troubled period would have lodged them long ago and that the overwhelming majority of them would have been adjudicated on. I would also like to know if the Government proposed to take any steps, as they are entitled to under the special Act that was passed, to compel the owners of property in the devastated area of Dublin to rebuild. These are very nasty eye-sores, particularly in the principal street. Public money is available for people who own the sites if they would only build and I think it is time that the compulsory powers, which are available, were used to compel these people to build, or, at all events, to see that the sites are built on, failing which I think the Minister should utilise the grants and pass them on to someone who would be prepared to build under proper regulations.

With reference to the question of housing, I think that what has been done since the change of Government is sufficient to indicate that we realise the importance of the problem, and that we are prepared to make a contribution. We were very glad that this Committee on Unemployment gave a good deal of attention to the question of housing, because, as the Senator has said, it will tend to solve two problems—the problem of unemployment and the problem of decent and suitable accommodation for the people. We have already given careful attention to that Report; discussions have taken place between the various departments, and preliminary steps at least have been taken towards securing that the conference which the Committee recommended shall be held. As Senators are aware, it was suggested in that Report that not only should there be a Government contribution towards speeding-up the provision of houses, but that there should be a contribution by the workers employed in the industry and by the firms engaged in it.

I think that it is absolutely necessary, if we are to overtake this question, that greater progress should be made in the future than has heretofore been made, and we are prepared to make, on behalf of the State, a generous contribution towards dealing with this matter. There is a limit to what we can reasonably do; there is a limit to any increase in the assistance that the State can give, but I believe that as a result of the consideration that is now taking place, it will be possible to arrange for a very much more rapid provision of houses, and that it will be possible to arrange for a continuous programme which will be run over some period such as ten years. I do not think it is necessary to raise a special housing loan, but if it is, we will not hesitate to do so. It may not be necessary to raise a special housing loan, because large sums of money will not be required in any one year, and it is undesirable to raise more money than we want, because if we do, we will be paying interest at the rate of 5 or 5½ per cent. for money, and we would not be able to earn as much on it. It may be possible, in the ordinary way, out of funds at our disposal, to provide any money that is necessary. We realise the importance of long-term loans in this connection, because houses cannot be let at economic rents if loans have to be amortised in short periods.

I would not like to rely on my memory with regard to the total amount that is still due in regard to compensation, but I should say that at the end of this year no further large sum will remain to be paid. I believe that all cases have been adjudicated on. In many cases reinstatement conditions are attached to the awards. Reinstatement has not yet been effected, and while perhaps unreasonable delays have taken place in some cases, the delays in others have been quite reasonable. The people who have got awards may find the utmost difficulty in proceeding with reconstruction. Further sums may have to be raised, but a great deal of the reinstatement that was required has been done. Even in O'Connell Street work is in progress, and I should say that by the end of the coming financial year not a great deal will remain to be done. I was under the impression that the powers with regard to the taking over of sites which was given by a special Act rested with the Commissioners of the City of Dublin, and not with the State.

I see in the Estimates a grant-in-aid of the expenses of the Incorporated Law Society of Ireland amounting to £325. I would like to know what exactly that means.

The Senator will have to give me notice of that.

In view of the fact that there are several lawyers in the House, and at the risk of getting into trouble, I should like to say a word or two about this. It was only this morning that I learned for the first time, when I was looking through the Estimates, that there was an annual grant-in-aid of £325 to the Incorporated Law Society, or in other words, the State is giving a grant to the best regulated trade union in the world. I wonder what would be said if Labour representatives went to the Minister for Finance and asked for a grant? I am afraid that they would require to have an army with them if they went to ask for a special grant for some poor labouring men's trade union.

You should have got it in a couple of hundred years ago.

I can imagine what would happen then if they asked for a grant for the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union of £325 yearly. I cannot see why the lawyers' trade union should get a grant from the State. They earn more than the labourer does. Any unfortunate man who gets into their hands knows that. I read of a case of an unfortunate man who lost his leg and who made a claim for compensation. He was awarded £100, and when he came to get paid he got £40 and the lawyer got £60, and he asked the lawyer: "Which of us lost the leg?" This is a small matter, but there is a principle involved in it. I do not see why the State should give a grant to any trade union, whether it is a professional man's or a working man's. I am sure £325 is nothing to the legal profession of this country. As the Minister did not give me any information, I thought I would give him my views as to how it strikes me, and I think it is altogether wrong. Of course it was got under an old statute. I suppose some legal adviser to the monarch then reigning got the grant for some services rendered, but I do not think the legal profession in this country renders any special service more than anybody else for which their trade union should be subsidised at the expense of the State.

I am in the same position in this matter as the Minister. I do not really know in respect of what this grant is made, but I cannot help thinking that some of the remarks made by Senator Farren are uncalled for, as far as my branch of the legal profession is concerned. I am really doubtful as to the origin of this grant, but I am inclined to think, subject to correction, that it was restitution money to the Law Society for property taken from them by the barristers. I am not sure of that, but I think there was some question involved between the Benchers and ourselves, and that it resulted in this grant being made to the Incorporated Law Society in respect of some property taken from it. However, I am sure that the Minister will look into the matter and give it all the attention that it deserves. I do not agree with Senator Farren in some of his criticisms about the profession. I am inclined to think that very frequently labouring men earn a good deal more than professional men earn. I will not draw any comparisons between the value of the work, but will leave it at that.

There is one matter to which I would like to draw the attention of the Minister, and that is that the whole amount down for Fisheries is £16,000. Now, Ireland is a country with an enormous sea-coast and we had and could again have very fine fisheries in it. In the early meetings of the Seanad we had very considerable discussions with the Minister for Fisheries, mainly as regards inland fisheries. There is no question but that the Department has taken up the inland fisheries and has done a great deal for them. But if we look at the fisheries which could be carried on in this country if the fishermen around the coast were properly looked after, such a sum as £16,000 is really quite unworthy of the Free State, and I do think that the Minister for Fisheries ought to put in a bigger claim and get more funds to have at his disposal. Just think of our country for a moment and think what £16,000, both for our inland fisheries and our sea fisheries, is to give any Minister to work his Department or to help the fishermen. Any of us who fish in the rivers know what it costs to keep up proper protection on a river, and those of us who spend a good deal of our time around the coasts know what fishing-boats cost to keep up and we know the hard life the fishermen have. Here is a case in which I think our Labour friends ought to give us some assistance. There is no body of men in the whole of the Free State who have to earn their living harder or at greater risk to their lives than the fishermen.

As a money-making proposition fishing is a very fine thing indeed. I believe that if the Department of Fisheries was looked after well and given a sum of money such as could lead to some useful purpose, we could make money instead of having to spend money. We all know that we spend a good deal of money on agriculture, which is the mainstay of the country, and we know that our agriculturists believe that we do not spend half enough in helping that industry. I believe that a great deal of money could be made which is not made simply because we are not looking after a great industry that is lying there ready to be attended to. Other countries do not act in that way. Denmark, Norway, and other countries spend large sums of money every year on their fisheries, and what is the result? We import an enormous amount of fish, and our exports are a humbug compared with what they should be, with a huge industry like this waiting to be developed. I would strongly commend to the Government the necessity for paying more serious attention to this question of fisheries than evidently has been given to it when such a sum as £16,000 is the whole amount to be handed over to the Department to protect our inland and our sea fisheries. I am not saying how the money should be spent, but I am quite sure if the money is given to the Department they will use it judiciously and well, and I would only commend to the attention of the Government that far more should be given to the needs of the Free State fisheries than has apparently ever been given since we started.

Coming from a county that is very much interested in fishing, I support Senator Jameson's appeal. I certainly think that the sum of £16,000 is quite inadequate to be set aside for the development of fishing. For instance, I have complained for the last four or five years of the amount of poaching done by foreign trawlers round the coast of Donegal, and to prevent that poaching we had a boat that is nothing less than a joke, because it can steam about ten or twelve knots, while the trawlers it is expected to catch can steam fourteen or fifteen knots. Certainly, the State should spend some money in providing a more up-to-date poacher catcher. Again, we have in Buncrana a pier on which the British Government, thirteen or fourteen years ago, after an investigation, decided to spend £35,000 or £40,000. We have been knocking at the door of the Government for the last couple of years to try to get a grant to keep this fishery going—one of the most important fishing centres in Ireland, where 300 or 400 boats come in every year, and where upwards of 1,000 men are employed. The Minister for Industry and Commerce and the President saw the congested state of the pier, which is an extension of the stone pier, —a little wooden structure where it is absolutely dangerous for men to go with horses and cars. I think that the Minister for Finance should look into this question and give some encouragement to the development of this great industry. We are looking for industries to develop, and here is one at our very door which the expenditure of some money would make into a veritable gold mine.

I did not think this question was going to be raised, but I am very glad that it has been raised, and Senator Jameson deserve our thanks for raising it. This question of the sea fisheries of Ireland is a very large question; it is a question that has been with us for a great many years, and is likely to remain with us for a good many years to come. The trouble about the question of sea fisheries is that for their proper development and protection a very large sum of money would be required, but that is no reason why we should not endeavour to make a beginning. There are difficulties in the way. No doubt the Minister for Finance will tell us that he has to raise considerable money in many directions for various purposes, and I do not suppose he will welcome the sea fisheries being placed upon his back also. At the same time, the question will have to be faced and dealt with some time or other, and the sooner the better. In the first place, we shall require proper protection for our fisheries. Our coasts are frequented by steam trawlers and our protection against their depredations is very inadequate. We have a ship called the Helga. She cannot be in more than one place at a time, and in any case she has not the speed nor the seafaring capacities sufficient to enable her to do anything like the amount of work that she is expected to do.

What the Free State ought to have is a flotilla of fishery protection boats; but, of course, the provision of these and their upkeep would cost a good deal of money. Then there is the question of harbour accommodation around the coast, which is a very large question. A great deal of money has been spent upon building piers all round the Irish coast, and no doubt, in many cases substantial benefits have resulted from the building of these piers, but a great deal more requires to be done.

That all means money. Then there is the subsidiary question, the very important question of loans to fishermen for boats and gear. A system of loans has been in operation for a good many years, and it has not worked perhaps quite as satisfactory in all its incidence, but it has worked unquestionably, with the result that it has encouraged fishing in certain districts. That is a question that will have to be considered and carefully investigated.

There is one suggestion I would make, if we ever come to increase the facilities to fishermen for loans for outfit and fishing boats, and that is that we might utilise our home resources and build our boats at home as far as they can be built. I am sure that the Minister for Finance will sympathise with that view. We have very capable fishing-boat builders in this country, and no doubt if they were asked to co-operate in this work they would be able to give a good account of themselves. The whole question really resolves itself into one of money. Another very important point in connection with the development of our fisheries is the establishment of curing stations where we could freeze the results of our fishermen's labour and put it on the market at appropriate times when the fishermen would get fair prices. That, it seems to me, is a direction in which we might very usefully make a beginning. There are various places—Buncrana, for instance, and other points around our coasts that might be mentioned—where curing or freezing establishments could be started with very considerable advantage to the fishing industry. That is one of the first things that they do in other countries, in Canada, America and different parts of Europe; wherever they have a chance of landing a large catch of fish they also have opportunities for freezing it and preserving it for the market. I am glad that the question has been raised, though I do not know whether the Minister for Finance can hold out a very hopeful view to us at the present time. At the same time we ought to begin to see what we can do to help our fishermen, than whom there is no more deserving class in the community and no more industrious class, and I might also say, no more courageous class—people who prosecute their very difficult avocations under very considerable disadvantages.

I would like to emphasise the points to which attention has been called by Senator MacLoughlin and Senator Esmonde, as regards poaching on our sea fisheries. I spend a considerable portion of my time in the West of Ireland, and from the windows of my house I can easily see boats, frequently within the limits, fishing continuously. One day last autumn I saw a little boat cruising along right under the cliffs. I made inquiries and I found that it was a French boat trawling for lobsters and crayfish. She could have easily been overhauled by any efficient Civic Guards, I should think, from the shore, with help of a canoe. But she was there day after day, and as it was a very small boat, whenever there was threat of bad weather she made off to the nearest port. Senator Esmonde has also spoken about curing stations. Some years ago a curing station was established in a place called Seafield, Co. Clare. That has been shut up since the Free State commenced to function there. There were quite a number of canoes fishing. They had increased enormously in numbers, I think they had trebled in numbers, and I think a number of fishermen were earning a very good livelihood by catching mackerel and curing them. I used to see vessels coming in to take away barrels of cured mackerel. All that is dead. I fancy the fish are there still and I fancy that with the exercise of a little enterprise and energy the industry could all be revived.

There is another question to which I would like to call attention. In addition to the want of development I think that a considerable amount of damage has been done in places. We are all familiar with the Shannon scheme. I have urged over and over again the necessity for some precautions to be taken to preserve the supply of salmon in the Shannon, but I regret to say I have not been able yet to have that done. I have been in communication with the Department for Fisheries, with which I have had a good deal of correspondence, but I have not yet been able to find out what steps have been taken to protect the supply of salmon in our most important river. On another occasion here I pointed out that the Shannon fisheries have afforded employment to more than 1.000 men for generations. None of us knows what the effect of the works will be on the fishing. We hope that it may not be very injurious, but as far as I can make out, a policy of drift is being pursued. There is no question about it that if the spawning salmon are allowed to go above the upper weir and to get into the lake not one of the young fish that are hatched out will survive the ordeal, and certainly the old fish will never come down alive. It seems to me—and this is a view I have been asked to press over and over again by the fishing people there—that the only way to protect the Shannon salmon fisheries, which are of enormous value, is to prevent the spawning fish going above that weir. I have urged the question and I have been told that it would interfere with the upper Shannon fisheries. Well, the upper Shannon fisheries will be interfered with anyway—you cannot help it—and the only thing to do is to try to protect the lower Shannon. I believe that if the fish were allowed access to the smaller rivers and if they were protected on the spawning beds below the upper dam, in all probability it would be the best way out of the difficulty. I am very glad that this question was raised because it gives one an opportunity of calling attention to what is in my opinion a most important thing.

The sum referred to by Senator Jameson and Senator MacLoughlin is, of course, only the sum on account and it does not represent the total expenditure on fisheries for the year. Perhaps I ought not to speak here in place of the Minister for Fisheries because I may say something that he would not altogether agree with, but I confess myself rather sceptical on the question of the development of our sea fisheries. It would be easy to spend a great deal of money on fisheries, and it would be easy to waste a great deal of money. There are only a comparatively small number of whole-time fishermen, fishermen who will fish all the time, who, if there are not fish in one place, will go to another place, and if there is to be any improvement in the industry, any improvement that is worth while, it can only be by encouraging that section of fishermen and by inducing additions to be made to their ranks. As to the fishermen who do some part-time work, something might be done to help them by way of relief, but it would be scarcely better than that. People talk about fish being all round the coast, but the market is elsewhere, and for fishing off our coast the Free State fishermen has few, if any, advantages over the Scotch, English or French fishermen. I think that the development of the sea fishing industry will at best be comparatively slow. If any sound proposals are put forward by the Department of Fisheries I will undertake to see that they receive sympathetic consideration.

But I would not undertake to consider such proposals as sympathetically as I would consider proposals from the Department of Agriculture. I feel that the money that will be spent on agriculture will produce good results. As to proposals for the expenditure of money on fisheries I would, in a great many cases, have some doubts as to whether good results would be produced. For some time I have resisted proposals for the expending of money on further patrol vessels. Senator Sir Thomas Esmonde suggested that we would need a flotilla to keep off the poachers. I would prefer to spend money in giving a pension to every fisherman on the coast, because I think it would be cheaper, than do what the Senator has suggested. It may be that another vessel should be substituted for the present one. There might even be a case for a second vessel because, as it has been pointed out, when the present vessel passes a certain point she is expected not to be around again for several days. In that way the poachers feel safe, whereas if there was a second vessel it might be following the first, and the poachers would have to be more careful. There might be a case for some further expenditure there, but there would not be a case for expenditure that, if our fishing industry was a big thing already, would be justified. When our fishing industry is, comparatively speaking, a small thing you cannot justify expenditure on protection that might otherwise be justified.

When the figures of our expenditure on fishery development are compared with similar figures for other countries, we find that the provision for piers is all included in the Fisheries Vote for other countries. In our case the expenditure on piers and harbours is included in the Board of Works Vote, although it may be largely, or almost entirely, for the benefit of fishermen. Care has to be taken, I think, in comparing the figures of our expenditure with the expenditure in other countries because, I believe, sometimes we have been criticised in a way that was not quite fair in this matter. Senator McLoughlin referred to a particular harbour. That is one, I suppose, of the three or four harbours in the country where there do seem to be some prospects of fishery development, and which, it seems, would produce some useful results. I think I have already informed Senator McLoughlin that very careful and very sympathetic consideration is being given to the proposal in regard to that matter, and that a conclusion with regard to the pier at Buncrana will be come to very soon.

Some of the points raised by Senator Sir Thomas Esmonde were, I think, matters that should be dealt with by the Minister for Fisheries. I would not pretend to be able to deal with them. I do know that the Minister for Fisheries has in preparation legislation dealing with lobster fishing, and also with regard to the institution of a National Brand for mackerel. That legislation will be introduced shortly. The Government has recognised that this is a matter that deserves very careful consideration. I may say that the reason why the Department of Fisheries was set up was this: that we believed, if our fisheries remained as a section of the Department of Agriculture, that the Minister for Agriculture would not be able to give attention to them, and would be rather inclined to neglect the question of fishery development in favour of agricultural schemes which, as I have already said, give a surer promise of economic returns. We set up the Department of Fisheries in order that there might be a member of the Government who would have sole care of our fisheries, who would be there to answer criticisms in regard to fishery development and would have to stand or fall in regard to his policy on that matter.

My own knowledge in regard to the fisheries tends, perhaps, to make me look upon the whole matter in an unfavourable light. I have applications for permission to give loans without proper security or without the usual security. I have applications to write off or to give remissions of loans that were made years ago. I understand that, before the change of Government, fishery loans were very often inadequately secured. The people who got the loans very often looked upon them as grants. I was of the opinion that a continuation of the old methods, which sometimes people say were more sympathetic than ours, would get us nowhere. Possibly, the position is that no real progress can be made by a moderate annual expenditure. It may be that we will have to plunge as, perhaps, some Senators may think we have plunged, as regards the Shannon scheme. If we have to make up our minds for a very big expenditure over a period of years and could see the prospects of developing the fisheries to anything like the extent to which they have been developed in other countries by such expenditure, I think that might be justified, and I would be prepared to take my share of the responsibility for that. So far, however, I have not seen anything that would convince me of that.

We talk about helping the fisheries. The real thing is that we have so few fishermen. The fisherman who will only, go out and take fish when he sees them come in shoals into his own bay, so to speak, in front of his own door, and who never fishes at any other time, is not going to do anything to develop our fisheries. There are a great number of our fishermen who are reluctant to go away from their homes and devote themselves entirely to fishing as the fishermen in other countries do. If we had men who had the same outlook as the French fishermen who come around our coast and poach here, then we would make some progress. There are historical reasons, no doubt, for the present state of things, but because it is so that is no argument against trying to do more.

The only thing I am saying to the Seanad in this connection is, that to make progress in regard to our fisheries is an extremely difficult thing. It is a matter on which, from what I have seen of the financial effects of the previous administration, we could easily not merely spend but waste great sums of money. You could, for instance, make loans far more easily than they are being made at present. You could give loans to all sorts of people at the present time. Probably a little loosening up of the loans scheme would simply result in this: that people would get the feeling that money was easily got. Because they felt that, they would let it go easily, and in any case they would feel that there was more to be got in the same easy way. The result of all that would be that the industry would not be put on its feet as an economic proposition.

I remember that when the matter was under discussion in the Dáil that Deputy Johnson, who had given a great deal of study to the matter and had a great personal knowledge of the fishing industry and the disposal of the products of the industry, said that one of the best things that could be done for the industry would be to induce the people of the country to eat more fish, but Deputy Johnson, like myself, was not a Catholic, and perhaps under-estimated the difficulty of inducing people to eat more fish.

Question—"That this Bill be read a Second Time"—put and agreed to.

The following motion stands in my name:—

"That the Standing Orders be suspended for the purpose of enabling the remaining Stages of the Central Fund Bill, 1928, to be taken to-day, Wednesday, 28th March, 1928."

The reason why I put down this motion and why the Minister for Finance asked me to do so was, because if this Bill is not passed into law by the end of this week certain financial difficulties would arise. As Senators are aware, that is always the case with regard to the Central Fund Bill. If the Seanad is meeting to-morrow and desires to have a further discussion on this Bill, then I would not be inclined to move this motion to-day, but would be agreeable to leave it over until to-morrow. If the Senate is not meeting to-morrow, and if there is no desire to discuss the Bill further, then I think it will be necessary to pass some such motion as this.

CATHAOIRLEACH

With regard to the Old Age Pensions Bill, which has also been certified as a Money Bill, a similar motion standing in the name of Senator Bennett has been handed in but it was not received in time to be moved to-day. I do not imagine Senators will be very keen on meeting next week. Therefore, I should not like to summon them merely for the purpose of taking the concluding stages of these two Money Bills—the Central Fund Bill and the Old Age Pensions Bill. There would be no other business to be done. I think it would be better to have both motions, one in the name of Senator Douglas and the other in the name of Senator Bennett, in regard to these two Bills taken to-morrow.

Ordered: That both motions be taken to-morrow.
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