Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 28 Mar 1928

Vol. 10 No. 10

PRIVATE BUSINESS. - DENTISTS BILL, 1927—COMMITTEE STAGE.

The Seanad went into Committee.

Sections 1 to 40 inclusive agreed to.

SECTION 41.

Sir EDWARD COEY BIGGER

I move the amendment standing in my name:—

"To delete the words ‘Medical Council' wherever they occur in this section, and to substitute therefor the words ‘Dental Board."'

This amendment proposes to give the Dental Board the right to inquire into the training and experience required for future dentists. The Bill as it stands gives this power to another body, the Medical Council, but for reasons which I intend to put forward I think the duty would be much better performed by the Dental Board. The Dental Board, I submit, would be in a better position than the Medical Council to know what would be required for dental candidates. It would be interested in drawing the attention of the universities and of the colleges holding examinations to any alterations that might be thought necessary.

A dental board, for instance, would also be better up in the latest dental science and matters of that sort. Furthermore, the Dental Board has certain functions with regard to outside universities. Sub-section (2) of Section 29 of the Bill states that:—"The Board may recognise for the purposes of this section any British possession, self-governing dominion, or foreign country in which there is in force at the time of such recognition legislation —(a) Providing for the registration by a public authority of persons engaged in the practice of dentistry; and (b) requiring for such registration a standard of training and knowledge which is, in the opinion of the Board, not lower than the standard of training and knowledge necessary for obtaining the right to be registered under this Act."

Thereby, the Bill casts on the Dental Board the power to see that any person applying from a foreign, colonial or dominion university for registration as a dentist must have the knowledge and be up to the standard required to entitle him to come on the Free State Register, but it does not give the Board that power regarding our own universities and colleges. It looks quite inconsistent if there are two professional bodies dealing with the one question, one the Dental Board and the other the Medical Council. I think that the Minister has fallen into a mistake, or is attaching too much importance to the English Act under which the Medical Council has certain functions. The Seanad should remember that the General Medical Council in England has been performing dental functions during the last 50 years. That does not apply to the Free State. Here you have a Dental Board and a Medical Council. The latter is composed entirely of medical men, while the Dental Board is composed of medical men and of dentists. Therefore it seems to me that the Dental Board is the more suitable body to carry out this duty.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I see that Section 43 provides that when the Medical Council is exercising these functions it shall be reinforced by three members of the Dental Board.

Sir EDWARD BIGGER

I am coming to that. That function is something like what has been in force in the English Council. Speaking from personal experience of that Board. I can say with all weight of knowledge, that the duty would be better done by the Dental Board, which is really interested in dental qualifications and dental work. I was going on to say that under the English Act the General Medical Council has been dealing with this work for 50 years. Naturally, when that Act was being amended they did not give up all their functions, but I question if there had been a new Act passed in England, such as we are proposing here, that both from the medical and dental point of view there would not have been this overlapping.

The Dental Board will be an important body. It will be composed of ten members, three of whom are to be members of the Medical Council and possibly a fourth one appointed by the Minister. That is, four medical men out of a total membership of ten. The medical interests will be well looked after, but on the Medical Council there is not a single dentist. It would be wrong, I think, to put the dental profession in an inferior position to that, say, of the legal profession or other professions such as registered nurses, midwives, and so on. In bringing forward this amendment I may say that I am not doing so either in the interests of dentists or of the medical profession, but merely as a member of this House. I think it is only right that we should try and secure that our legislation should be such that it would work as smoothly as possible.

Mr. DOUGLAS

I think it is rather unfortunate that, while an important amendment of this kind is under consideration, the Minister in charge of the Bill could not be here. If he were here he would probably be able to enlighten us as to the reasons why this provision was made. I understand it was made largely in consultation with the dental profession. Being anxious to understand the matter, I consulted a leading member of the Irish Dental Association. He told me that an amendment on the lines of the one suggested by Senator Sir Edward Bigger was considered by them and that they did not desire it. I might say, in passing, that this is not a matter on which I personally feel very strongly, and I certainly would like to have heard the Minister before taking the course of setting my opinion against that of Senator Sir Edward Bigger. It is only right, however, that I should state the reasons that were given to me as to why the Irish Dental Association felt itself opposed to an amendment such as the one before the House.

The present position under this Bill is that the Dental Board will have full control over the register as to who shall be on it, as to why anyone should be removed from it, etc. In the matter of education, it is clear from the section to which Senator Sir Edward Bigger proposes his amendment, that the standard will be finally set by the Medical Council, and in order that the dentists should be represented on the Medical Council, Section 43 of the Bill provides that three representatives of the Dental Board shall be on the Medical Council. Quite consistently, of course, Senator Sir Edward Bigger proposes to delete that power in a later amendment because, if the Dental Board was to have a full say in the matter, there would be no reason why it should be represented on the Medical Council. The position seems to me to be this: that it is desirable to have as close a connection between the Dental Board and the Medical Council as possible, especially if the present Dental Association desires it.

At the present time the bodies who will grant diplomas, the standard of which is to be decided by the Medical Council and the Dental Board if the amendment is not carried, are the medical bodies and the universities in Ireland. I understand that the lecturers or professors in dentistry at present are only part-time men. You have not, therefore, got men who are in a position—this was a point that was put strongly to me by leading dentists—to give their full time and such consideration to the standard of examination as can be given by the Medical Board. There is another reason which, I think, is of considerable importance. It has also to be considered that after a great deal of discussion, a satisfactory arrangement has been reached, as we understand it, in regard to the Medical Council in its relations with the British Medical Council. As Senator Sir Edward Bigger has pointed out, in England there are representatives of the Dental Board on the Medical Council. The Medical Council, through its representatives, controls the standard of education. In view of the arrangements that have been come to between the two medical councils, it seems to me to be desirable, if that is what the Dental Board desires, to continue the same arrangements here.

Without any information from the Minister on the subject, I think the Seanad should be very careful before it inserted an amendment of this sort. As I said earlier, the matter is one on which I have not much personal knowledge or feeling. I have simply given the views expressed to me by a leading member of the Dental Association.

Mr. DOWDALL

With regard to the education of dentists, I desire to correct a statement which has been made in the course of the debate. As to the education of dentists, it was stated that lecturers in dentistry were only part-time men. But might I point out that is equally true of the medical profession. Professors of surgery, in almost all cases, are only part-time men. The difficulty that was raised by Senator Douglas's informant would be met by the appointment of a member of the Dental Board on the governing body or Academic Council of the Senate of the National University. It really carries no conviction to me that the lecturers in dentistry are only part-time men. The same can be said with regard to the medical profession.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I think, Senator Sir Edward Bigger, that in view of the fact that the Minister is not here, and also in view of what we have been told by Senator Douglas, that the suggestion contained in your amendment was made to the dentists themselves and turned down by them.

Sir EDWARD BIGGER

I do not think so.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I am not saying that is so but merely repeating what has been stated here. In view of that, I think it would be wiser if you withdrew the amendment for the present. If you agree with that, I will give you leave to bring it up on Report when the Minister is here. Of course, if he does not attend then it will be his own look-out. However, I think you could safely withdraw it for the present and I will allow you to bring it up on Report.

Mr. HAUGHTON

I hope Senator Sir Edward Bigger will fall in with the suggestion that has just been made. I have reason to know that, amongst the dentists in the south of Ireland, there is a strong feeling against the amendment. There is a feeling, I think, amongst members of the dental profession that theirs has been the Cinderella for many years amongst the great professions. I am sure that Senator Sir Edward Bigger does not look askance at the dental profession, but judging by the amendment one would think that he did not wish to be associated with the profession. On the other hand, he wants it to be as closely associated as possible with the medical profession. I hope that the matter will be left over until the Minister is present.

Sir EDWARD BIGGER

I have great pleasure in falling in with the Senator's suggestion. At the same time I would like to say that while, as far as I know, the dental profession are so anxious to get the Bill passed they are ready to accept anything in the way of stopping unqualified dentists. They cannot for one moment say that the amendment I have proposed is not in their interest. It is only putting them in a proper position, and it was for that reason I brought it forward.

Mr. HOOPER

We are in a similar position with regard to other amendments.

CATHAOIRLEACH

Sufficient for the day. I think we will dispose of them when we reach them. I do not think there will be any difficulty about the others.

Mr. O'FARRELL

The other amendments are of some moment. I suggest that if we are to postpone these matters it will be better to report progress, and take the Committee Stage to-morrow when the Minister can attend. I move that further consideration of the Bill be postponed till to-morrow.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I wish to call attention to three amendments to the Third and Fourth Schedules standing in the name of Senator O'Farrell. The Clerk has received communications from three or four individuals making a case for their names to be inserted in the Schedules. I think that we might to-day appropriately appoint a subcommittee to look into the amendments on the Order Paper, and the other representations received, so as to avoid delay.

Mr. O'FARRELL

We could do that without completing the Committee Stage of the Bill to-day?

CATHAOIRLEACH

Yes.

Mr. DOUGLAS

I think Senator O'Farrell is right. I only intervened because the Minister is absent. I think it would be better to postpone the Committee Stage until to-morrow and to request the Minister to attend.

Mr. FARREN

On the last occasion this subject was discussed there was general agreement that the question of individuals in regard to the Schedules should be referred to a sub-committee to consider and report back. I think we ought to adopt that procedure.

Mr. O'FARRELL

That would be on the lines I suggest.

Progress ordered to be reported. The Seanad went out of Committee. Progress reported.

Mr. FARREN

I move:—

"That the following Committee be appointed to consider applications to have names included in the Schedule: Senators Bigger, Dowdall, O'Sullivan and Farren."

Agreed.