Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Jun 1928

Vol. 10 No. 19

PUBLIC BUSINESS. - CHILDREN BILL, 1928—REPORT STAGE.

Question—"That the Bill be considered on Report."

Mr. BRADY

I move:—

Section 1. To delete in lines 23-4 the words "and likely to continue unable."

It will be within the recollection of the House that on the last day you pointed out that a magistrate might have some difficulty in interpreting the words "and likely to continue unable." There was also great force in the argument of Senator Mrs. Wyse Power that if a child were committed, and if the subsequent condition of the family were such as to make it desirable to have the child discharged from an industrial school, there was no power in the Bill to do so. I appreciated at the time the value of that argument, and I tabled the amendment that now stands in my name.

CATHAOIRLEACH

How will the deletion of these words fit in?

Mrs. WYSE POWER

They will not fit in at all.

Mr. BRADY

I understood Senator Mrs. Wyse Power's difficulty was——

CATHAOIRLEACH

That once you got the child in it was very hard to get it out.

Mr. BRADY

I thought the argument had special reference to these words, and I thought you, sir, were under the same impression.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I do not like the words owing to the difficult task they would impose on the justice.

Mr. BRADY

I appreciated that and I pointed out that the words were not in the Bill as originally drafted, but were put in subsequently.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I think the Bill is better without them.

Mr. BRADY

I think it is. I do not want to occupy the time of the House now and I will simply move the amendment. If it does not meet Senator Mrs. Wyse Power's objection I regret it very much. If I may say so, I think the Senator exaggerates the purport of this Bill, which, as I pointed out more than once, seeks to eliminate the objectionable clause making it a condition precedent that a child should be found begging before it is sent to an industrial school.

Mr. HAUGHTON

Will the Senator say how the amendment I suggested would be covered in the Bill? The Senator has not said a word about it.

Mrs. WYSE POWER

I think the Senator has improved his Bill by putting in these words, although when he introduced the Bill he told us that it was perfectly drawn. The proposal to delete these words shows that it was not perfectly drawn.

Mr. BRADY

I stated that the Bill, as originally drawn, did not contain these words, and it was on a suggestion made to me that they were inserted and led to their appearance on the paper. I regret and apologise to the House, and I beg leave to withdraw them.

Mrs. WYSE POWER

I think the Bill is very much better without these words, but I do not think that withdrawing the words meets my suggestion about getting a child out when it is put into one of these schools. I think the Cathaoirleach pointed out that, and I understood that Senator Brady would put some words in to simplify the withdrawal of the child when the parent had employment and when there were better conditions in the home. That part remains exactly as it was and I do not think that I exaggerated the case at all. I have given a great deal of time and consideration to the question. I was a Poor Law Guardian for nine years and during that time had a good deal to do with putting children into industrial schools, or rather, with the prevention of having them put in and finding other means of housing them. There is a difficulty in getting children out, and I gave the Seanad an example of that at the last meeting. The example I referred to appeared in the newspapers. It was quite definite.

CATHAOIRLEACH

Of course that does not touch the amendment.

Mrs. WYSE POWER

No.

CATHAOIRLEACH

You can raise that point either by moving an amendment, or on the Fifth Stage by moving the rejection of the Bill.

Mrs. WYSE POWER

I did not choose to raise it on this stage, because originally I had an amendment, but I thought it was the feeling of the House that I should move it on the Fifth Stage. I see now that there is a proposal down to hasten and have the Fifth Stage to-day. I do not know if I would be in order in speaking on it now.

CATHAOIRLEACH

Yes.

Mrs. WYSE POWER

I do not think it is fair to me for the reason that my amendment will lose circulation now. If the Fifth Stage was fixed for next week my amendment would get circulation.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I think, in view of the fact that this Bill has yet to run the gauntlet of the other House, that you had better allow this matter to stand. We will pass this amendment now and let the Report Stage be adjourned so that Senator Mrs. Wyse Power may have an opportunity of putting down an amendment.

Mr. BRADY

I am in your hands and in the hands of the House, but it seems to me, if the House would permit it, that it would be very desirable that Senator Mrs. Wyse Power should move her amendment now, because, having regard to the time in the session that we have reached, it is imperatively necessary that this Bill should go to the other House as soon as possible, and if your suggestion be adopted it would mean that the Bill would be held up for another week. I have no objection to Senator Mrs. Wyse Power moving her amendment now, if the rules of the House permit.

Mrs. WYSE POWER

It is not the rules of the House that I object to at all but that people will not know what is in the amendment. I do not think it is fair to me, because I withdrew an amendment before.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I think Senator Mrs. Wyse Power's point is reasonable. You see, Senator Brady, this Bill, as I have said, is only passing in this House. It has yet got to run the gauntlet of the other House.

Mr. BRADY

I am fully alive to that fact.

CATHAOIRLEACH

The interruption by the adjournment will not deprive you of that, and when the Dáil resumes its sittings it will take up this Bill. I think you are very sanguine if you think you will get the Dáil to put this Bill through before it rises.

Mr. BRADY

I will be less sanguine if it is postponed for another week.

CATHAOIRLEACH

You would be, but I would not be very sanguine in either case if I were you. I think there was nothing to prevent Senator Mrs. Wyse Power from giving notice of this amendment. I do not know why she did not give notice of it.

Mrs. WYSE POWER

Because I intended to object to the rushing of this thing, and there is not the slightest hurry about it.

Mr. BRADY

As you have just indicated, there is no reason why Senator Mrs. Wyse Power did not put down an amendment which refers to this stage.

Mr. BENNETT

She could have put it down for a later stage. She could not move an amendment on the Fifth Stage.

CATHAOIRLEACH

Yes, but we have passed the Committee Stage, and there was no amendment. We are now on the Report Stage, and there is no amendment.

Mr. BENNETT

Quite, and we could not have an amendment on the Fifth Stage.

CATHAOIRLEACH

No.

Mrs. WYSE POWER

Well, it was in deference to Senator Douglas, who is not here. He suggested that I might move it on the Fifth Stage. It does not suit me to move it now, and I do not want to move it now.

CATHAOIRLEACH

With all respect to Senator Douglas, I think you must have misunderstood him. You cannot move any amendment on the Fifth Stage.

Mr. O'FARRELL

The amendment to which Senator Mrs. Wyse Power is referring is the amendment she moved on the Second Reading to postpone the Second Reading of the Bill.

Mrs. WYSE POWER

No.

Mr. O'FARRELL

That is what I understood. She moved that the Bill be read a Second Time so many months hence, or else she moved something which would have the effect of postponing the whole Bill until other legislation came in, and she can move that on the Fifth Stage.

Mrs. WYSE POWER

I am quite right. I know that I am right, and therefore I have been very careful.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I never knew you to be wrong, or at least, what is better, I never knew you to admit you were wrong. However, we will preserve your right, and unless the House now passes the motion that Senator Brady has down——

Mr. BRADY

I hope the House will pass it.

CATHAOIRLEACH

If the House passes it I will give the Senator permission to move her amendment to-day. But I am not asking the House to pass the motion.

Mr. HOOPER

She will have the right to move on the Fifth Stage that further consideration of the Bill be adjourned.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. BRADY

I beg to move "That the Standing Orders be suspended for the purpose of enabling the Fifth Stage of the Children Bill, 1928, to be taken to-day."

Mr. BROWN

I second the motion.

Mrs. WYSE POWER

I object.

Question put and declared carried.

CATHAOIRLEACH

The question is: "That this Bill be received for final consideration and do now pass."

Mrs. WYSE POWER

I beg to move:—

"That the further consideration of this Bill be adjourned until the report of the recent Poor Law Commission has been examined by the Executive Council with a view to legislation."

I do not want to say anything more than I said originally, that I object to piecemeal legislation, though I do not object to the principle of Senator Brady's Bill. I repeat that I was the first in this House to draw attention to the anomaly. I am quite against it, but I do not think it is fair or just that one paragraph should be taken out of the Poor Law Commission's report and a Bill brought in on that one paragraph. There is the question that arises with regard to industrial schools and future legislation. We hope, and it is hoped by everybody who has thought out the problem of the life of the child in this State, that something will be done for the widow who is left without a breadwinner. We hope that something will arise on the Poor Law Commission's report to give widows a small pension so that they can rear their children at home. If the amount given to the schools were given to the mother, she could very often keep her children with her, and they might not be sent into the schools. If you pass this Bill to-day, without the consideration of the Executive Council on the question, you are cutting across this whole scheme of mothers' pensions. You are practically retarding that point of view. A Committee is sitting that has been doing what it could to get these mothers' pensions adopted, and they are very anxious that this Bill should not be passed, because they think it will retard their work. The question of mothers' pensions is an enormous one for this State, and it is a question whether it can afford them or not. I know that. But at the same time I do think that there are certain widows with little children who could be kept for a very reasonable amount, practically as reasonable an amount as that paid to the industrial schools, and that their homes could be maintained. It is for that reason only that I opposed this from the beginning. I believe that the principle of Senator Brady's Bill is the right one. It is a perfectly correct Bill, but I do not think that it is right or reasonable that we should take upon ourselves legislation on this particular matter before the Executive Council has had time to consider it. It is for that reason alone that I oppose it, and it is for that reason alone that I move my amendment to-day.

Dr. GOGARTY

I second the amendment, because I think Senator Mrs. Wyse Power's contention is very far-reaching. There are many Commissions sitting, and it may be a reflection on the disturbance of legislation by these Commissions, or help towards legislation, but there are Commissions sitting whose reports are not in, or whose reports are withheld when they are in, and certain actions take place without regard to these reports. An instance of this is the Greater Dublin Commission. Many houses were built while that Commission was sitting, and houses are continuing to be built which may have to be changed or taken down for roads to go through, or which may fall down before the Commission's report is adopted. In the same way, a Commission was set up to inquire into the child problem, and before it is dealt with Senator Brady brings in a Bill to crystallise part of that Commission's report, and that might be in the way of the relief that might follow from that Commission's report. I think that that contention cannot be answered, and I wish to support Senator Mrs. Wyse Power.

Mr. BENNETT

I quite agree with Senator Mrs. Wyse Power's contention, that the question of mothers' and of women's pensions should be considered, but it seems to be very much like the case we used to hear long ago in Ireland of "Live horse and you will get grass." These poor children who are now destitute have now no place to go to. If we do not pass this Bill they will remain in the same deplorable condition until such time as legislation can be passed. The question of providing pensions for mothers is a question of finance, and it is a very complicated one. The Minister for Finance will have to consider it, and consideration will have to be given to the question as to whether the finances of the country would stand it. There are a hundred and one things to be considered, and things that ought to be considered. But here you have a concrete proposal to remove a definite, crying hardship. If this Bill is passed it will remove it, and I submit that it will in no way interfere with the broader problem of giving pensions to mothers. I cannot see that it cuts across it in any way. This will remove a grave injustice, an injustice which we all see is placed on the community by the law as it stands, and if you permit this Bill to go by the board now you will prevent these poor little children and these poor mothers from getting assistance, and you will in no way help them in another direction. What Senator Brady proposes is to make provision for them by law, without making criminals of them. I think the Bill is a very essential one, and I think its passing will in no way militate against a broader consideration of the problem. We should allow the horse to live on the grass he has, without looking to the grass which may be greener and better when he gets it, but which he may never live to get.

Mrs. WYSE POWER

The non-passing of this Bill will not prevent children from being sent to industrial schools.

COUNTESS of DESART

It will prevent them being made criminals before they are sent.

Mr. FORAN

The only point is the removal of the criminal action of begging. Some of us believe that the passing of this Bill would make it easy for the opponents of mothers' pensions to defer this very necessary measure which is in operation in England and in Northern Ireland. I feel that I ought to oppose this Bill rather than put any excuse, any means, into the hands of the opponents of mothers' pensions. They will say, when the people who are agitating for mothers' pensions carry on their agitation: "The hardship on widows has been very much reduced; they can easily send their children, or the children they cannot provide for into industrial schools. The stigma of begging is removed, and we see no reason for passing mothers' pensions for this State." It will delay this very necessary measure, and for that reason I am going to oppose the passing of this Bill.

Mr. HOOPER

It seems to me that Senator Foran and Senator Mrs. Wyse Power have laid far too much stress upon the possibility of the passing of this Bill endangering the success of the campaign for mothers' pensions. This Bill really affects a very small number. Probably the number of children who would be admitted to industrial schools as a result of this Bill would not exceed 200 at the outside. After all, the number of children that can be admitted to these industrial schools is limited by the certificates which are granted to these schools. Only a proportion of the places are now filled. This Bill might admit of a number of the remaining places being filled, but that would be a very small number. What the Bill really would do would be to see that the children who are admitted to the schools would be admitted without the taint of criminality, and the number that would be allowed to come in excess of those now in would be very small. The widows' pension scheme was intended to apply to many thousands of children throughout the country, and really I think the danger has been exaggerated when one considers that the number that would be admitted under this Bill would be an infinitesimal percentage of the number that would be affected by a widows' pension scheme. In these circumstances I believe that the House would be doing right in removing this taint from the children who are now admitted to the schools.

Mr. O'HANLON

I would make one short observation on what Senator Foran said. We are, at the moment, attempting to right a wrong, and there are people opposing us in that attempt. Their contention is that we should not right that wrong because a better case might be made later for something else for which they want legislation. They want to delay righting this wrong so that they may make a better case for a matter which is not entirely relevant to the matter at issue at the present time. Why should that be done? Why should one thing hang upon the other in that way? Why should we be precluded from doing what we consider is the right thing at the moment? I think we should go right ahead, and let the other matters of social legislation and widows' pensions be considered on their own intrinsic merits later.

Mrs. WYSE POWER

I think widows' pensions are being considered too much on this Fifth Stage. My amendment is to leave the thing as it is until the Executive Council has considered the whole Poor Law Report with a view to legislation. In that amendment there is really nothing about mothers' pensions.

Amendment put and, on a show of hands, declared lost.

CATHAOIRLEACH

The question now is: "That the Bill be received for final consideration and do now pass."

Mr. BRADY

On that motion might I say one word?

CATHAOIRLEACH

For what purpose? Do you wish to defeat it?

Mr. BRADY

No; on the motion that the Bill do now pass. I think there has been some misunderstanding outside the House regarding this Bill——

CATHAOIRLEACH

Oh, well, take my advice and do not say it. It is hard enough to fight out matters in the House without going into outside matters.

Question put and declared carried.