I move:—
"That it is expedient that the Seanad should appoint from amongst its members a number of Standing Committees to which may be referred proposals for legislation or Bills, or other matters within its jurisdiction, for examination, and, where necessary, report; and with this object that a Special Committee consisting of ten Senators (to be selected by the Committee of Selection) be appointed to consider and report upon the number of such Standing Committees that should be appointed, their powers, duties and composition."
The intention is to follow the example of every Parliament in the world, I think, as to the efficient conduct of the business of the legislature. So far as I can find out, it is becoming universal in Parliaments that very much more of the work should be done in Committee than is done in the Parliament of which this Seanad is one House, and my object is that there should be established a number of committees consisting of members who would apply themselves to the special consideration of work that would be put before them and to whom Ministers, or Deputies, or Senators, as the case might be, might refer matters for advice and special consideration. There are two classes of committee which one might have in mind, a committee which might have special powers, the powers of a Select Committee, to call for persons, papers and records and to take evidence, and an Advisory or Consultative Committee. What I have in mind is rather committees which would combine these two functions, a committee which would be advisory and consultative, or when specially empowered, which would act as a Select Committee to deal with special questions. I do not think that anybody dissents from the proposition that there is need for special consideration to be given to special subjects by people who have an interest in those subjects and have a more definite responsibility in respect of matters than the general responsibility of members of the Seanad. For instance, I referred casually a moment or two ago to an important feature of our procedure. In a very large number of Acts of Parliament, both old and new, powers have been given to Departments to make orders which have the effect of law. In some cases these orders may go a considerable distance in altering the statute, and these become effective law, provided that they are laid upon the Table for twenty-one days and no action is taken by the Dáil or Seanad in respect of them.
There has been a good deal of light thrown within the last two or three weeks on the growth and power and the development of this power of the bureaucracy in effect to legislate, and to alter statutes by order, and there is a real responsibility thrown upon the Dáil and Seanad by the fact that these orders are laid upon the Table and become law, provided that there is no adverse resolutions passed in respect of them. I think it is a responsibility that the Seanad at any rate ought to have in mind, and one of the committees that I think should certainly be set up is a committee to which would be deputed the responsibility of examining these new laws, as that is in effect what they are, and where they think it is necessary, to report upon the effects of them to the Seanad, so that if the Seanad desires definite action should be taken to disapprove of them by resolution. In this respect it is interesting to read a notice that has been put forward by Senator Milroy in regard to a particular decision in respect of a certain letting or leasing of property that has been laid on the Table. In that case some interested person has thought that a grievance exists, or that something untoward has been decided upon, and therefore the attention of the House is to be brought to it. But in the absence of any grievance in respect of a particular person, if we are only dealing with general questions of law that affect no individual present but that do affect the general body of individuals, surely it is incumbent upon somebody to have the responsibility of examining the effect of these Orders in Council, as they may be, or Executive Council Orders, as they are now called. I would say that such a committee as that should certainly be set up to have the duty of examining such orders and of reporting to the House as to their effect.
I think another committee of very great importance would be one which would have special care in regard to matters of external affairs. I believe that it would be approved of. In fact a similar proposition was put forward several years ago and approval was given to the idea that a committee, whose special care would be external affairs, would be welcomed by the Minister, because it would be a body with which he might consult, knowing that it would have knowledge and discretion and would give him support in actions that he would be taking. As it is at present, unfortunately, I think, neither the Seanad, the Dáil nor the public are at all familiar with the business of the Department of External Affairs. Such a committee as I suggest would take upon itself the responsibility of keeping itself informed as to matters that arise from time to time. It would be a body which the Minister might consult when he desired and which he might keep informed, so that the House indirectly would be kept well aware of what was happening.
There are other proposals that might be considered in regard to the necessity for committees. There might be a committee whose special duty it would be to deal with transport or local government, or agriculture. I have in my hand a copy of what is the Official Report of the New Zealand Parliament, and I find that there are Select Committees of the Legislative Council—which is equivalent to the Seanad—for agriculture and pastoral questions, education, gold fields and mines, labour Bills, local Bills, native affairs, public petitions, statute revision, and so on. I have a list of standing committees of the Reichstag, and I find that there are special committees there in connection with foreign affairs, national economy, social affairs, housing, education, transport, population, and various other minor committees, and also committees dealing specially with matters that affect the taxation chamber, such as taxation, civil service accounts and redemptions. Most of us are aware of the fact that under the Constitution of the United States of America, and also under that of France, a great deal of the work of these Parliaments is done by committees, but these committees are not the kind I am thinking of. I am thinking of committees which would have a clear liability to take special care of certain classes of subjects, which might be matters of legislation, to which the House might well refer Bills for closer examination than they would otherwise receive, and also which Ministers of various Departments could approach to consult with in respect of matters on which they desired to have consultations.
I am not seeking at this stage to go very far into this committee system. I prefer that the proposition should be dealt with tentatively, that a small number of committees—I have mentioned two, but perhaps one or two others might be decided upon by the House eventually—should be appointed. It seems to me a very desirable thing that Senators should feel that there is a clear responsibility lying upon them in respect of legislation and in respect of the general system of government. Immediately after this motion was put on the Order Paper two or three months ago, it happened that in the House of Lords a motion in these terms was tabled: "That it is desirable that a Standing Joint Committee on Indian affairs of both Houses of Parliament be appointed to examine and report on any Bill or matters referred to them specifically by either House of Parliament, and to consider, with a view to reporting, if necessary, thereon, any matter relating to Indian affairs brought to the notice of the Committee by the Secretary of State for India." I refer to that specially, because I know that there are a good many members who have thought of this Chamber as one rather commensurate with the House of Lords, and who would not like to go very far away from the procedure of that august chamber, and I bring that forward to show that even in that very conservative institution the system of special committees to deal with special subjects is in vogue. They have, of course, as most of us know, a number of other standing committees, but here you have a committee specially appointed, not only to deal with Bills or matters that might be referred to them, but which the Minister might approach and consult in respect of the affairs of his Department.
The question that I have raised was raised in this House in the early stages of its career, and from the reports of the discussions that took place I think the principle was thought well of, but it was decided not to do anything until more experience had been gained; it was felt that there was not sufficient experience as to what would be required and that it might be dealt with at a later stage in the history of the Seanad when more experience had been obtained. That experience has now been gained, and I think that it shows that there is need for the adoption of a committee system more or less extensively. Therefore, I move the motion, in the hope that the Seanad will consider it and will approve of it, subject to a later decision as to the number of such committees that might be appointed. Personally, I would be quite satisfied if the committee that I have suggested, which is to report upon the number of such standing committees, their powers, duties and composition, would advise that not more than two or three such committees should be set up in the early stages, and I would urge that there would not be more than two such as I have suggested, one to deal with legislation by the Departments, and the other to deal with external affairs. At least those two committees are required, and I think it would probably appear in the course of the discussion on Senator Kenny's motion that there is need for a committee to have regard specially to matters of external affairs.
