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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Mar 1929

Vol. 11 No. 8

Public Business. - Town Tenants' Grievances.

I move:—

That the Seanad requests the Government to take immediate steps to remedy the grievances of the town tenants in the Saorstát, whether by implementing the recent Report of the Commission on the subject or otherwise.

My reason for asking the House to accept this motion is because of my knowledge of the number of victims that there are owing to the delay in putting into operation the recommendations contained in the Town Tenants' Commission's Report. I will cite only a few cases in my own area of which I have actual knowledge. I am aware that landlords, expecting that the tenants of small shops will get protection within a month or two because of this report, are rushing their tenants to court and getting orders against them. People living in Talbot Street and in the North Strand Road are the special victims of that class of house-owner. I am aware of the fact that in the North Strand Road within the past month three shopkeepers, one of whom has been in business for thirteen years, another for fifteen years, and a third for seventeen years, have been treated in this way. The man who has been in business for thirteen years built up a small business which helped him considerably in rearing his family. It is a small shop, though it is covered, strange to say, by the Rent Act, but in another Act there was a section which gave the house-owner power to demand possession, not to ask for an increase in rent or to give the tenant an opportunity of making any offer, and within the past week in this case an order for possession was given by the court, which was empowered to decide which was the greater hardship—to leave this small shopkeeper and this family there to continue to earn their living in it, or to give it to the shopkeeper next door, who wanted to enlarge his premises, and the judges, in their wisdom, have given an order that means that this small shopkeeper and his family must clear out. I think that that is a hardship that this House, as well as the other House, intends that protection should be given against in any legislation we are to deal with.

Of the other two cases, one man was in a shop for seventeen years. I knew it well, and when he took possession of it, it was of little or no use to anybody and it was hard to get a tenant to take it. This young man went into it, spent a good deal of money on improvements, and built up a successful trade, rearing a family in it. To his great surprise, within the past couple of months, while the rent had been increased under the Rent Act from 25/- to, I think, 35/—I have not the exact figures—he was met quite recently with a demand from the landlord for £5 a week or that he should get out. His next door neighbour built up a successful dairy business during the fifteen years he has been in the shop and has made a handsome and a substantial property for the owner by bringing trade to it which was not there before. These two men have also been victims of the delay, and within the next month, if no protection is given to them, these three shopkeepers would be left on the roadside. In Talbot Street there is a trader who also took premises that the landlord found it hard to get a tenant for, and as a result of his energy, ability and devotion to work, and very hard work, he has built up a substantial business. The moment he turned the corner and that the business became a success he got a demand, I am informed, for an increase of rent from £200 a year to between £400 and £500 a year. It that is not profiteering and if it is not a class of thing that should be attacked by the Oireachtas I do not know what is. I do not know what better work we could do than to afford protection for those people, and protection for tenants of small cottages.

I know of a house on the North Strand Road, convenient to Newcomen Bridge, that in pre-war days was let for 9/- a week, and the landlord induced a young couple who were very anxious to get housing accommodation at any price, to sign an agreement to pay 30/- a week for a four-roomed ramshackle house, because when they went in they found it was ramshackle, and they had to spend their savings to make the house habitable. I am told that the same kind of thing is going on on the South Circular Road, that the owners of houses which were previously let at 7/- and 9/- a week are asking £1 a week and are getting it. People in Baggot Street are the victims of the same kind of landlords. In the case of these small shops, when the tenants have made them attractive by decoration and have built up a business by devotion to work, the moment they become a success the landlords demanded increases, in some cases amounting to four times the rent.

I will not delay the House further. In putting down the motion I was hopeful that I would get some assurance from the Government, and I hope the House will press for it, that if and when they introduce legislation dealing with these matters—and I hope it will be in the very near future, to protect any further victims of this delay—where it is intended that people should benefit by the recommendations of the Town Tenants' Commission, that the houseowners will not be allowed to get away with these practices, and that some kind of retrospective legislation will be provided so that protection will be afforded to tenants in cases where the landlords have demanded these fabulous increases of rent, and that the Government will see that these tenants will not be thrown on the roadside, as is bound to happen in the case of the three tenants on the North Strand Road that I have mentioned. I feel confident that I am appealing to a sympathetic House.

Without tying myself to it, because I really know very little about the matter, I second the motion.

I move the amendment standing in my name:—

To delete after the word "Saorstát." in line 3, and to substitute the words, "and to introduce legislation to give effect to the recommendations of the Town Tenants' Commission, 1927, on the working of the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act, 1899."

The amendment is in no way hostile to the principle of the motion, except to this extent, that it saves the House from being definitely committed to the whole of the recommendations contained in the Report of the Town Tenants' Commission. There will be differences of opinion in regard to certain of these proposals, and I think it would be unwise if, as suggested in the motion, we definitely committed ourselves to the acceptance of the Report in its entirety. A more important aspect of the motion is the positive suggestion requesting the Government to give effect to the recommendations of the Town Tenants' Commission contained in their Interim Report, regarding the working of the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act. The housing question is a big intricate one.

Cathaoirleach

The amendment of the Senator, as he has just read it, is not as it appears on the Order Paper. The amendment on the Order Paper reads "to introduce legislation to give effect to the recommendation of the Town Tenants' Commission, 1927, on the working of the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act, 1899."

That was what I read.

Cathaoirleach

I thought you introduced some words that were not in the amendment on the Order Paper.

Not when reading the amendment.

Cathaoirleach

I am sorry.

I was pointing out that my amendment requested the Government to give effect to the Interim Report of the Town Tenants' Commission on the working of the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act, 1899. That report deals with this particular question. The Final Report of the Commission is of a more general character and deals with the whole question of housing. The housing question is one that has been spoken of and written about a lot. To attack it in its entirety would be a colossal job, and I think it is best taken in separate sections. In that way we are more likely to arrive at some constructive conclusions and to make some positive headway than if we were to tackle the problem as one big question. The question really has not been seriously tackled at all when we realise the few thousand houses that have been built here since the war period. In Great Britain, up to the end of last year, they had either authorised the construction or completion under the 1923 and the 1924 Housing Acts of no less than 1,300,000 houses. Making allowance for the difference in population, our contribution to this problem is absolutely insignificant when compared with what has been done elsewhere. We have barely made up the ordinary normal wastage. We are only doing that, I think, in recent years, and that only in certain districts. Before the war, we were supposed to be about forty thousand houses in arrears.

We built no houses during the war period. We have built a few thousand houses since, which, as I have said, barely keep pace with the wastage that is going on. The position undoubtedly is a very serious one. We have only been tinkering with the question so far. It is true, of course, to say that practically the whole problem is one of finance. If money were available in a sufficient amount, a commodity for which there is such an urgent demand would inevitably be forthcoming in a short time in sufficient quantities. The costs of building and of building materials have gone up enormously since the pre-war period. It was not possible, in recent years, for builders to build houses and let them at an economic rent without a subsidy of some kind. The position, therefore, is that there are many speculative builders who would be quite prepared to build decent houses if they were able to find purchasers for them, people who would be able to purchase them at the price at which they were built. The trouble for those would be purchasers is to find the necessary money. In that respect the banks are an impossible proposition. No bank will, I believe, advance money now for the purchase of a house for a longer period than ten years, and that at a very high rate of interest. In such circumstances the burden that would have to be borne is an impossible one for the average person, even the person of moderate means.

It is just in this direction that the report of the Town Tenants' Commission on the working of the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act, would make a great step forward towards the solution of this problem. The report summarises the nature of the Act of 1899. It says:—

The Small Dwellings Acquisition Act, 1899, with the amendments introduced by the Housing (Ireland) Act, 1919, empowers the local authority for any area to advance money to a resident of a house within the area for the purpose of enabling him to acquire the ownership of that house.

The conditions under which money is advanced are: (a) the market value of the house does not in the opinion of the local authority exceed £800; (b) the amount of the advance does not exceed 90 per cent. of the market value; (c) the advance shall be repaid with interest, in weekly, monthly, quarterly, or half-yearly instalments, within a period not exceeding 50 years; (d) the interest shall not exceed ten shillings per cent. above the rate at which the authority is able to borrow the money; (e) the applicant resides in the house, or undertakes to begin residence therein not later than six months from the date of the advance, and (f) is not already the proprietor within the meaning of the Act of a house to which the statutory conditions apply.

The great problem is the making of money available for local authorities to advance it for the purchase of these houses. That Act was put into operation by the requisite statutory resolution by only a small number of local authorities before the war, with the result that there were only purchased under it 565 houses. Of these, 358 were purchased in the City of Dublin. As a result of their inquiries, the Commission gives a reason why that Act was not more widely availed of. Amongst the reasons given are: (a) ignorance of the facilities which it provided; (b) delay due to the elaborate procedure laid down; and (c) difficulty experienced by local authorities in obtaining loans for the purposes of the Act. The majority of people in pre-war days were not anxious to purchase their houses. Rents were reasonable. It was comparatively easy, in most districts, to get accommodation and even to change from one place to another. There was a general desire to shirk the responsibility which ownership of a house entailed. The position, of course, has altered enormously since the war by the tremendous shortage in houses and the failure to make good even the normal wastage over a great many years. In 1923, the Act was amended in Great Britain. That amendment raised the maximum amount of the market value of a house to which this Act applies from £800 to £1,200. The amount originally was £400. It was afterwards raised to £800, and in Great Britain it is now £1,200.

The Town Tenants' Commission recommend that a similar amendment to the Act should take place here—that the market value of houses be raised to £1,200—as to the period for repayment, which is at present 50 years, their recommendation is that it should stand. The Commission also recommends that advances be encouraged mainly in the case of people desiring to buy new houses or, say, in the case of speculative builders. You do not relieve in any way the housing shortage by helping people to buy houses of which they are already the tenants.

One result of the amendment and extension of the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act would be to encourage the speculative builder again. I believe that, in addition to whatever encouragement may be given to local authorities and to public utility societies, the private speculative builder should also be encouraged to make his quota towards the solution of this very important problem, and for one reason that you would encourage the building of a better type of house than is now being built. We shall very soon, I am afraid, lose the very science of house architecture by the type of wretched shelters that are being erected at the present time. It is a terrible commentary on what seems to be the awful necessities of the time when you find the Dublin Commissioners erecting three-roomed concrete houses along some of the finest boulevards around the Metropolis. Splendid new roads, like Griffith Avenue and others, are being lined with three-roomed concrete houses into which large families are being thronged. That is inevitable, and means that in a very short space of time these areas on the outskirts of the city, and in some of the best parts of the city, will become slums. They will take away from the value of property in the vicinity and they are certainly no credit to the capital of Ireland.

The Housing Bill that is getting a Second Reading in the Dáil to-day puts a premium on this type of three-roomed house, because it makes provision for the same amount of State grant for a three-roomed house as for a five-roomed house. We must assume that this Bill will be an encouragement to public utility societies, public authorities even, and the private speculative builder to build the small type of house, because they will get the same State grant for it as for the larger type. The extension of the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act would enable people, for whom there is no consideration at present, to get some consideration. There are people in constant employment whose salaries or wages may not be very big. But their employment is constant and fairly assured. These people are desirous of providing themselves and their families with something approaching decent accommodation. In Dublin, for instance, unless they have a minimum of six in family their application for a house is ruled out according to the present regulations. Now, the ordinary decent citizen would like to have all his children born in decent surroundings. He does not want to have to wait to have the first six born in a slum area in order that he may qualify for one of these Dublin Corporation concrete houses.

This Act would also make provision for the young married couple to start life in decent surroundings. It would enable people of that type, who are prepared to make big sacrifices in other respects in order to have a decent home, to enter into arrangements with a speculative builder and buy a new house in that way. The Commission, in their recommendations, suggest that money might, in the first instance, be advanced under certain statutory conditions, and providing that the speculative builder would be repaid as soon as he sold the house, the loan eventually being made to the purchaser of the house. The object of that provision is that it would save double stamp duties. That is a useful recommendation, because if each person had to go and make arrangements for the building of his own house it would mean enormous expense and be quite an uneconomic arrangement. The recommendations of the Commission take all these considerations into account. They put forward provisions that are capable of overcoming any difficulties that may arise.

There are plenty of examples of this type of legislation. I find that, towards the end of last year, in the New South Wales Parliament a Bill of a somewhat similar character was introduced. It was known as the "Government Savings Bank (Housing) Amendment Act." The Premier in explaining the Bill, said:—

Under the first part of the Bill the Savings Bank Commissioners were authorised to erect homes for eligible persons who would be required, in the first instance, to have only 10 per cent. of the cost of the dwellings, including the land which they desired to acquire. The title would be vested in the Commissioners, and the intending purchaser would enter into a contract with the Commissioners for the purchase on terms which would allow of the discharge of the liability in instalments within the reach of persons of moderate means. The Commissioners would provide up to 90 per cent. of the total cost of land and dwelling. The maximum amount they might furnish under the Bill was £1,200, but it was intended that for the present the limit should not be more than £1,000. A term of 30 years would be allowed for the purchase of brick or concrete dwellings, and 20 years for the purchase of wood or wood-frame dwellings.

That is what is being done in the New South Wales Parliament. It is making exactly similar provision to that which has been suggested in the report of the Town Tenants' Commission here. Similar arrangements are being made in other States of the Australian Commonwealth. All really that is necessary is to float at intervals a housing loan and make substantial sums available for local authorities as an inducement to them to adopt this Act, and so that they could deal with applications without undue delay. The purchaser of the house, of course, pays back the principal and interest on an annuity basis, with the result that it may not cost one penny to the taxpayers or the ratepayers of the country. What a splendid thing it would be if, by that means, we could build, say, 10,000 additional houses, apart from anything that the local authorities are doing. In concluding their remarks, the Town Tenants' Commission really sum up the arguments in support of this proposal. They say:—

Assuming that the amount of labour requisite for building operations and the production of materials is available, without having to be withdrawn from other productive undertakings, and assuming that an undue proportion of the expenditure has not to take the form of purchase of foreign building materials, the advances made to facilitate building operations are all wealth-producing advances. The measure of this production is not to be found merely in the sum-total of the new houses erected. A much wider complex of potential resources are made actual. The amount immediately expended upon the houses which afford the security for and eventually repay the loans, passes through a succession of hands and implements a succession of transactions of all kinds—the State itself all the while, through a variety of channels of taxation, earning a fair commission on the expansion of business that is promoted. Just as the effects of a tightening of credit (due frequently to causes which seem small in proportion to the results produced) are felt in every direction. so the bringing into play of such a large security as would be brought into being by the erection of, say, 10,000 new houses would have widespread beneficial reactions. In a sense, a nation as a whole lives by its expenditure. If the nation is to be prosperous, the expenditure must be both large and wise; if the expenditure is either restricted or foolish, prosperity declines.

That Report was signed by people who are anything but vague and irresponsible visionaries. It is signed by Mr. Justice Meredith, as Chairman; Mr. John J. Horgan, of Cork; Mr. J.J. Murphy, the Chairman of the Electricity Supply Board; Mr. M.P. Rowan, a Dublin trader; Mr. P.J. Byrne, Principal Architect in the Board of Works, and by the Secretary, Mr. John B. Hughes, Registry of Deeds Office. This is the Interim Report of the Town Tenants' Commission. It is sold by Messrs. Eason & Son for 3d., and is well worthy of study by anyone interested in the housing question. It is certainly a Report that deserves the consideration of the Government. Here it is not a question of giving a free grant. It is merely a question of making a few millions of money available, by way of a loan and on excellent security and under proper safeguard, and bringing into being a source of wealth in the way of rates, while at the same time giving much-needed employment. It directs a way of making a very material contribution to one of our most crying national and social problems at the present time. The recommendations of the Commission apply, of course, not only to the cities and the urban centres, but also to the rural districts. The Small Dwellings Acquisition Act could be applied by any local authority that passes the necessary statutory resolution. To that extent its ramifications would be more wide-spread in the benefits they would bring to the community than any mere legislation affecting town tenants in the ordinary sense of the word. I hope that the Seanad will pass the motion and the amendment, even if it be only with the object of drawing the attention of the Government to this matter and inducing them to give practical consideration to what, in my opinion at all events, is one of the most serious and practical proposals that we have received for the solution of this problem.

On a point of order, I would suggest that it would be much better to word the resolution in this way:—"Resolved, that it is desirable to remedy the grievances of town tenants, etc." It seems to me that this is not a very proper method for the Seanad to recommend the Government to do something. The Seanad should either pass a resolution of that sort or itself bring in a Bill for that purpose. I think to pass a resolution amended on the lines suggested would be more consonant with the dignity of this House than to ask the Government to bring in a Bill.

I am glad that this question of town tenants of houses, both in the towns and the country, is receiving consideration from the Seanad. I hope it will be fully debated from every point of view, because it is in many ways a very thorny subject. I am in favour of the resolution proposed by Senator Byrne, and of the amendment proposed by Senator O'Farrell, with certain limitations, however, and any criticism that I may have to make on the resolution and the amendment will be, I think, in favour of making the legislation more liberal than is proposed. There are two fundamental difficulties in relation to this question. The first is that any great restriction in the right of ownership, and in the powers of an owner, will result in the complete stoppage, perhaps, of speculative building. That is one point. Another matter which has to be considered is that no doubt the sitting tenant is, as Senator Byrne has suggested, very often subject to oppression. This question is wholly unlike that of the land agitation, with which we are so familiar for the past forty years. The head landlord, that is the feudal landlord, in many cases throughout the country charges only the ground rent. The rack rent which the sitting tenant ultimately pays goes to the middle-man, or more frequently the middle-woman. I know of many cases of widows and others dependent entirely on the profit rent which they derive from houses in the towns. These are the two fundamental problems which face us when dealing with a question like this, and they form the reason why the agitation in respect of houses in towns was not taken up as part of the land agitation. But although these difficulties arise, I think it is not beyond the power of Parliament to deal with them.

I see that in the final report of the Town Tenants' Commission the Commission are in favour of what used to be known as the three f's—fair rent, fixity of tenure, and free sale. I think that with certain reservations, and with such limitations as to see that justice is done to everybody, these three principles ought to be accepted. Free sale is the only remnant of feudalism which exists in the relations between landlords and tenants in property in the towns. It is the law that if there is a covenant against alienation in a lease that any attempt by a tenant to sell his interest is absolutely void. I think that should go, and instead of it there should be substituted a provision that the landlord should not be entitled to object to a sale of land except for good and sufficient cause. That is the tendency, I think, of modern legislation, and it is the tendency of modern thought. Therefore, I think no harm could be done by allowing the tenants of house properties the right to free sale.

Now, what about a fair rent? Why should not the tenant in a town be entitled to have his holding at a fair rent? But the question arises, what is a fair rent? You will sometimes have to consider, and you will find tribunals which will have to decide what the fair rent is, to decide between the rich and prosperous tenant and the very needy middle-man or middle-woman. Still, I think if the principle of a fair rent is accepted we should have no objection to that. Now we come to the other question, fixity of tenure. Why not fixity of tenure? There frequently arises a case where a man has only one house. He makes a letting of that house for a year, or for two or three or four or five years. In the course of time he may require that house for himself or his son. That was the main difficulty in the Act of 1906. Very frequently it was found a man who built a house was more in justice entitled to possession than the man who was sitting there as tenant, so that there are many things to be considered. I think the principle can be accepted of fixity of tenure, free sale and fair rent, provided there is the over-riding principle of justice and fair dealing as between the parties concerned.

It seems to me that if these principles are adopted they will have a certain effect on the speculative building of houses. In all probability they will dry up the sources of supply altogether and you must be prepared for that. It seems to me the only way to deal with it is by accepting the amendment of Senator O'Farrell, or some modification of it. If I proceed to criticise the speech of Senator O'Farrell it should not be taken in any hostile attitude. I would like to see the proposal in that amendment made absolutely and entirely effective. Senator O'Farrell says that we ought to put into operation the provisions of the Act of 1899, as modified and extended by other Acts. The principle of the Act of 1899 was that it made available to local authorities monies to enable a willing tenant purchaser to purchase from a willing landlord vendor, and it provided that the tenant purchaser should have one-fifth of the money in cash. That was a fatal blemish.

It is now one-tenth.

It was amended to one-tenth. There were very few transactions under the Act of 1899, and the reason was that when the tenant was willing the landlord was not willing, and when the landlord and the tenant were willing the tenant had not the 20 per cent. to pay in cash, so that it made the Act absolutely and entirely nugatory. It was applied only in Dublin and three or four other districts in Ireland. All through the rural areas it was entirely ignored, and the framers of the Act might have known it would be a failure, because they had the experience of the Land Purchase Acts, which were conceived in the same spirit. The first of the Land Purchase Acts provided that one-fourth of the money should be paid in cash by the tenant. That was the Act of 1869. Then came the Act of 1881, which had the same vice. The State was to advance a certain amount of money and the tenant was to plank down cash. The Act was a failure. There were no sales under the Act, and then the legislature had to resort to a device which I think my friends will have to resort to. There is no use in expecting a purchasing tenant in a town or elsewhere to put down one-fourth or one-tenth of the cash, for it is more than a year or two years' rent in advance, and they will not and cannot pay it. Another plan will have to be adopted.

I think those considering this measure would do well to study what was done under the Land Acts when the tenants were refusing to pay money in cash. I think my friend Senator Barrington will remember all these matters. The plan was adopted of providing for a guaranteed fund, and one-fourth of the purchase money was allowed to remain in the hands of the Land Commission as a guarantee that the instalment of the annuity would be paid. In that way Land Purchase proceeded, without any necessity on the part of the tenant to put down any cash whatever, and the landlords' deposit, which remained as security, remained there, of course, earning interest, and in that way, although the Land Purchase was an absolute failure, so long as the tenant was required to pay cash, when this procedure was adopted the wheels of land purchase were greased, and the sales of land proceeded in the regular way. I think it will be found that procedure such as I have indicated will have to be resorted to. There was another reason why the Act of 1899 was a failure. It was sporadic in its operation. A house might be sold here and a house 20 miles away, and the costs were prohibitive. There were the costs of the landlord, the tenant's costs, and the costs of the tenant's counsel. A landlord was disinclined to go into the title of his entire estate for the purpose of effecting a sale of one house. That is a matter which will have to be considered. If advances are to be made for the purchase of a dwelling house, just as they have been made for the purchase of holdings on estates, the operation must be carried out on an extensive scale, and it must go not by houses but by estates. These are a few of the objections which occurred to me as having been the cause why that very beneficial Act of 1899, which seemed on its face to be so reasonable and beneficial, was a failure. These reasons will still operate if the amendment of Senator O'Farrell is accepted in its entirety, unless you make some provision whereby the tenant can become the purchasing tenant without making any lodgment whatever in cash.

I stated at the beginning what I considered the effect of Senator Byrne's motion would be if carried out, and I see nothing to stop it now. I see no reason why it should not be carried out, but we must face the consequences, and the consequences will be that speculative building of houses for the sake of the rent will necessarily come to an end. Something else will have to be adopted in its place. I think Senator O'Farrell has suggested what ought to be adopted—that the State should come to the encouragement of the speculative builder. I think it would be quite feasible to introduce legislation which would legalise an agreement between a speculative builder and a prospective purchaser, and that a house or house would be built to the order of the purchaser out of the money to be advanced by the local authority or the State. If proper supervision were adopted I see no reason why there should be any national loss. The Act of 1899 contemplated that the extreme limit of loss under its provisions was to be one halfpenny in the £ in rural areas and one penny in the £ in towns. With such a measure as Senator O'Farrell has indicated, and with such improvements as I think could be made, I see no reason why the State should lose on this. I think the State would gain very considerably, because there is nothing more hideous and nothing more destructive of individuality than the series of uniform little habitations that are being constructed in the most beautiful sites around our cities and towns.

What are these three-roomed little houses for? A man and his wife can live in them, but a man and his wife cannot bring up a family in them. They are all uniform, they are all miserable, they are all machine-made, and, they will all result in a machine made population. I am entirely in favour of encouraging individuality. I am glad that Senator O'Farrell takes that view, and I hope he speaks, as I am sure he does, for the Labour Party in this question in favour of allowing a prospective purchaser to have some choice in the kind of house in which he has to live Leave it to private enterprise, and in that way I think you will get greater variety in the habitations not merely of the poor but in those of the better classes. You will get a greater return for the money expended because the operation of house building under the plan proposed would not be so much officialised as it is at present. Therefore I urge upon the Seanad to consider favourably both the motion proposed by Senator Byrne and the amendment, which is really an expansion of the motion which has been proposed by Senator O'Farrell.

I rise to speak against the motion both in its orginal and amended form. There is much in the report of the Town Tenant's Commission with which I do not agree. I do not propose to go now into detail on the subject, because I do not believe any useful purpose would be served by my doing so. There is no Bill before us, but there is going to be one. When that Bill comes before us we can deal with it on its merits and according to our varying points of view. To vote for this motion now would be, in my opinion, to say that everybody who votes for it voted as if he thoroughly understood and belived in everything in the Report. It is a very difficult and complicated subject, and I gravely doubt whether members of this House are really competent to call on the Government to legislate on the particular lines put before them having regard to the difficult and complicated nature of the subject. I do not propose to discuss the subject and I intend to confine myself to the principles involved. I wish to make it clear that the reason why I am voting against the amendment is that we have not a Bill before us. I am opposed to any further interference with freedom of contract. I do not say that in some respects that might not be done without doing much harm, but I believe that in a Housing Bill there would be interference with freedom of contract, and the more interference the greater will be the difficulty. Senator Comyn foresees some difficulties. He is in favour of the motion. He takes a different point of view from me, but he recognises that this kind of legislation will result in there being no speculative building of houses, and no private building of houses.

If you built by private enterprise to make speculation pay, and if that had been left to itself, I do not think there would be as much housing difficulty as there is. The proposal now before the House would make things very much worse. I believe the cure proposed is worse than the disease. Further, I would like to point out that there is nothing like the analogy there would appear to be between this question and the land question, because in the one case by no amount of legislation could you reduce the amount of land. It is there, and the people would still go on producing food from it, but by legislation in the case of houses you could reduce the supply, and that is what I think would come about if this thing is driven too far. As I have said, when a Bill comes before the House I think it will be time enough for us to grapple with the problem in detail.

I do not know that I would go quite as far as the Senator who has just spoken in my opposition to the amendment, for I think there is contained in it the possibility of going towards a statesmanlike solution of the housing question. The proposal that loans should be advanced to enable houses to be built and to secure the repayment of the loans by means of a sinking fund is, I think, an admirable method of dealing with the problem, for it enables individuals to own their own houses once and for all. It encourages private possession and, as Senator Comyn says, that individuality which essentially centres around the home. I do not think it will be denied that a satisfactory settlement of the housing problem goes nearer to the root of our difficulties than anything else. At the same time it makes me blush to think what we could have done with the £8,000,000 we voted for the Shannon scheme of electrification. I believe, from a social point of view, that money could have been better spent on the sound financing of housing schemes. Senator Byrne sought to excite our pity by references to certain cases within his own experience. I do not question there are hard cases. There are always hard cases when questions of scarcity arise. It applies to any commodity which is scarce. The prices rise and there are hardships, but when such rises are uneconomic the system is only in a transition stage to the supply of capital and the evoking of enterprise to take advantage of these conditions of scarcity. The whole cycle of trade is involved in that.

If you never had any inducement to people to invest you would never have any progress or development. For that reason you should not attempt to regulate this scarcity by control, and create a static position which immobilises capital that might with advantage to the community go to the solution of the housing question. We will have the opportunity of going into this question. It is a question on which, though we take different points of view, we should try and get a satisfactory solution. I would invite the attention of the House to the main principles involved in the final report of the Town Tenants' Commission. It is a very complicated report, and I suggest that in many respects it is imperfect. If you were trying to draft a definite measure on that report it would give you nothing but a few very general headings, and it would not help you at all in the essential details that would be necessary in an Act of Parliament. In essence it is perpetuating this method of Government control. It is practically holding up the operation of all contracts connected with the whole existing housing question. It purports to give the tenants the three f's which were mentioned by Senator Comyn. Senator Bagwell told us the conditions were more simple and rational in connection with land legislation. It enables, on the expiration of a lease of a so-called tenant, the person who owns the lease to go before somebody very vaguely defined, to obtain a renewal of his lease on the terms of a fair rent, of which there is also a most complicated definition and which will only serve those lawyers, solicitors, and a whole mass of officials and people who will get additional employment under the complexities which this measure will create.

To give you one instance in passing: attention is frequently directed in this report to the equities of the tenant. In the case of a leaseholder, that is a person who holds the lease, at its expiration that person, or his predecessor in title, having built the house, is entitled to certain equities and increments in consequence of past expenditure. What are the facts? As we know them that house was possibly built eighty or ninety years ago and the lease has passed through several hands, and in every case has been bought on its wasting value. In many cases these leases go at nominal sums on account of the short period they have to run, and they have little value as a reversion. According to this report, apart altogether from the total breach of contract involved, you are giving a windfall to a certain party to a contract who is not entitled to it, and who never expected it when he bought the reversion.

Take the position of ground landlords. They have been valued periodically, when estates pass on their reversionary values. As leases are shorter the values have been placed higher, and death duties have been charged on increasing values on short term leases. It is most unjust to come along and cancel the whole of the contracts on which no values have depended and on which the State is benefiting in the form of taxation. But that is only a small part of the proposal. It is further proposed, as far as I can make out, that every occupier—there is no suggestion as to a limit—a person paying £400 yearly in rent or a person paying only 2/- weekly, can go to this court—either the District or Circuit Court—and question the reasonableness of the rent; they can simply go and say they are being charged an abnormal rent—whatever an abnormal rent may be—and you lay this whole question open to litigation, valuation and all the delays which that sort of thing involves. I ask the House to pause seriously before giving a vote on that question because it is really fundamental, I submit, and altogether wrong, with the experience which you have got of the land courts, and of the delays and expenses which they involve, and the inhibitions they produce, that we should now start for the first time to set up this hierarchy of officials that must necessarily be involved in a matter of this kind. What would be the result? The result would be that house property would not be an attraction for any form of investment and you would not get the speculative builder or anyone else to come along and take the chance of supplying houses which are so badly needed. Once you start to bring this matter down to State regulations, and State control and interfere with contracts you will never be able to say: "This is where we draw the line and will move no further." You will always have apprehension on the part of any investor that the law will be extended to cover future building; as it is proposed to cover previous building. You have it written all over land legislation which began with yearly tenants only, but which extended to leaseholders, and finally everybody was roped in. You will have the same pressure. Eventually capital will not come. All essential housing needs will be thrown upon the State. We know what that means, and what an uneconomic thing it will be. I hope the House will content itself, without passing the amendment, with giving it much more serious consideration, and not be carried away by individual cases of hardship, such as the Senator quoted, and wait until this Bill appears before committing itself to the principles of the Report of the Town Tenants Commission.

I think the Senator who has just sat down and Senator Bagwell have read rather more into Senator O'Farrell's amendment, in fact, than appears in it, because unless they are denying any grievances of town tenants, or, if admitting that there are grievances, they deny that there should be any legislation to remedy them, they might as well support the motion of Senator Byrne, because it asks that the grievances be remedied, whether by implementing the Report or otherwise, so that both Senator Bagwell and Senator Keane could quite legitimately support the motion as it stands. I want to refer to the Report of the Commission in some degree and leave Senator O'Farrell's statement regarding the importance of the Interim Report to suffice, because I think the argument he has used has been conclusive and has not been answered by any of the critics. I think there is a question as to what is going to be the effect of implementing the Report of the Commission in respect of a class of houses not mentioned by Senator Byrne. It appears to me that what was in the mind of the Commission in making their Report was the house held under a lease, or a house and shop, a town tenant as he was known a few years ago, as distinct from a householder, who occupies a house for domestic reasons alone, and who is not interested in the question of business premises.

The question of the restriction of rents is touched upon in this Commission's Report, but it is not clear yet to me, although I have read the Report several times, what is the recommendation of the Commission in regard to the ordinary house tenant. If the Commission's Report in regard to the establishment of a fair rent tribunal is to be put into operation and to be made applicable to house tenants, then I think the position of the house tenant will be worsened as compared with the position he occupies to-day, or ought to occupy. I stand definitely for the position that in time of famine of any commodity the owner of the goods ought to be restricted in the price he should be allowed to charge for these goods. Senator Bagwell or Senator Keane, or both, made some reference to the effects which would follow in respect to house building and the effects that have followed—the shortage of house building that has followed restrictive legislation. One would have more faith in that argument if it could be shown that there had been a consistent supply of houses to meet the demand before there was any restrictive legislation.

There was before the war.

Pre-war there was a very distinct shortage of house building and a fall-back in the number of houses being built, and the attraction to the capitalist to supply capital for house building, apparently, was not as great as the attraction in other directions. Whatever the explanation, there was undoubtedly a failure of house building in pre-war days. There are probably 80,000 houses in the Dublin area, and those 80,000 tenants will be in the position, unless there is an extension in the period, which has been more or less promised—but not very definitely promised—during which the Rent Restrictions Act shall operate, that they will be quite definitely at the mercy of the landords, with regard to the rents they will be charged after the end of June. I think it would be quite defective to trust to the operation of a Fair Rent Court to protect the ordinary working-class tenant from overcharges by the house owner. If the tenant has to go to the court to be protected the difficulties are too great, and unfortunately, unless a very strong organisation develops, and a great deal of agitation develops, to arouse the interest—and, shall I say, the animosity—of the tenants, the tenants will be mulcted in charges which they are at present protected from. The needs of the case, to my mind, are very distinctly that, while there is a shortage of houses there should be a restriction in the amount chargeable by the landlord for the use of a house, and in so far as the Report of the Town Tenants' Commission fails to recommend such a provision, I think that the Report of the Commission is faulty and should not be followed. I would like the House to bear in mind that it is desirable—I think it is necessary— for the peace, order and good government of the city and the country that house tenants should be protected against charges for rents which more than suffice to pay a fair interest on the capital originally invested. Of course, Senator Sir John Keane will quite appreciate the point that it is a fundamental divergence of view, that this doctrine that there should be no interference with freedom of contract might be justifiable and defensible if there was equality of power between the persons concerned. But when you have the case of a man and a woman needing shelter, and unable to buy or to build shelter for themselves, and who are therefore at the mercy of the owner of the shelter, there is no freedom of contract—the freedom is all in the hands of one man, and the other party is virtually in a position of dependence and semi-slavery. So that one cannot speak of freedom of contract in such a matter.

Therefore, in so far as the Report of the Town Tenants Commission is concerned with the house tenant it fails, in my opinion, to recommend proper protection for the house tenant, and is not satisfactory in that respect. I think what Senator O'Farrell seeks to achieve in the amendment would in time go far to remedy the evils of the present situation arising from the shortage of houses, as compared with the demand for houses. When that amendment would have had full effect, when houses had been built, either by local authorities or by private speculators, to meet the demand, there would be something like equality, and then one might think seriously of removing the restrictions. But until that day comes I hope that the restrictions will continue.

I want to correct a few misunderstandings before the motion is put. Senator Comyn referred to the cost of the purchase of a house, arising out of the administration of this Act. It is recognised in the Report that that is exorbitant, and the Commission made recommendations by which that cost could be materially reduced. The Senator pointed out what is, of course, correct, that to a considerable number of would-be purchasers one-tenth of the price is a matter for consideration. It may be of interest to him to know that the rents now charged for houses that are built by speculative landlords are just ten per cent. per annum of the sale prices of the houses. For instance, in the case of a house that is worth £1,000 they charge at least £100 or £110 a year rent. I know a house recently built the sale price of which was £800, the rent of which is £87 a year where they have not been able to sell. So that the would-be purchaser has only to produce one year's rent in advance in order to meet with the requirements of the Act, and many people pay as much per year for a flat or for a very poor house as would enable them to pay one-tenth of the price of a very decent house.

Senator Bagwell has apparently mixed up the Final Report of the Town Tenants Commission with the Interim Report, with which the amendment deals. The Interim Report is certainly not a complicated report; it is quite easy to understand. The Final Report may be complicated, of course, because of the wider nature of its survey. He said that the amendment suggested that everybody would build houses for everybody else. Of course, that is not the case. All it does mean is that it should make money available on annuity terms to enable people to buy their own houses or, in other words, to build their own houses, and pay back the principal and interest. It would impose no burden on anybody except the person who purchased the house.

There may be differences of opinion, as I said, with regard to the Final Report. I could not accept the Final Report in its entirety; neither could Senator Sir John Keane, and to that extent we could agree on the amendment, which cuts out references to that. I take it that Senator Byrne is not particularly keen on it, because he says "or otherwise," and to that extent the motion, as amended, while it does support the Interim Report, does not bind the House at all to the Final Report of the Commission. For that reason, I hope it will be possible for the House to accept the motion as amended, because I take it that Senator Byrne is not objecting to the amendment.

I agree with everything that Senator O'Farrell has said. He said it much better than I could. I hope in the very near future that the housing problem will be tackled by a great national movement. I think it is the duty of all Irishmen to unite on this problem, a problem that does not belong to any one Party. I think the bulk of all Parties should get together and try to deal with the housing situation as it exists to-day. I hope that the House will accept the motion as amended.

Cathaoirleach

The larger Report of the Town Tenants Commission was stressed by Senators. I think that they were justified in stressing it, because, after all, Senator Byrne's motion was: "That the Seanad requests the Government to take immediate steps to remedy the grievances of town tenants in the Saorstát." Those grievances, when they are being considered, will surely entail reference to the Report of the Town Tenants Commission.

Motion, as amended, put and declared carried.
The Seanad adjourned at 7 o'clock.
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