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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 Jul 1929

Vol. 12 No. 22

Public Business. - Intoxicating Liquor (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 1929—Third Stage.

The Seanad went into Committee.
SECTION 1.
In respect of Sunday, the 14th and Sunday, the 21st day of July, 1929, and so far as relates to the County Borough of Cork only, paragraph (c) of sub-section (1) of Section 2 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1927 (No. 15 of 1927) shall be construed and have effect as if for the word "two" now contained therein there were substituted the word "five" and as if for the word "five" now contained therein there were substituted the word "eight."

I move amendment 1:

Section 1. To delete in line 21 the words and figures "and Sunday, the 21st."

On the Second Reading of this Bill last night, in a small House, I indicated my objection to the inclusion of Sunday, 21st, in this Bill. I had better perhaps repeat, more or less, what I said on that occasion. The Act which this Bill is intended to amend was the result of fairly prolonged discussion in both Houses. The sections dealing with the closing and opening of publichouses on Sundays in the four boroughs and in the other parts of the country were the subject of a good deal of discussion. The late Minister for Justice, who was in charge of the Bill, succeeded in persuading both Houses against accepting the proposition that the provision dealing with opening on Sundays, where crowds gathered, should apply to the four county boroughs. As we all know, a Bill was passed by the Oireachtas a few weeks ago. That Bill was applicable to the one day on which the Catholic Emancipation Centenary celebrations were being held. It was pointed out that many thousands of people were expected to gather in Dublin on that day, and it was thought necessary to make provision for the publichouses in the city to open at different hours to those provided in the Act. That Bill was for one occasion only, so that food could be provided and so that even publichouses might be utilised for the provision of food and refreshments for the thousands expected to come to the city. Similarly, on Sunday, 14th, celebrations of a similar religious character are to take place in Cork. Many thousands of people are expected to be in Cork on that day from fairly early in the morning until late in the evening. Consequently, it was thought important that the same provision regarding the relaxation of hours in the Act should apply to Cork as applied to Dublin. I suppose there is no real objection to that, because of the special circumstances which will probably not happen more than once in a generation or once in a hundred years.

But the proposal in this Bill is to include Sunday, the 21st, and to have a similar relaxation for that day because of the fact that there is a football match in connection with which many thousands of people are expected to visit Cork. There will be numerous football matches, no doubt, in the four county boroughs during the summer. It seems to me that the proposal to include Sunday, the 21st, in this Bill is very unwise. If there is going to be provision for such occasions the case ought to be argued and the views of the Department of Justice should be properly understood. The inquiry which has been promised into the working of the 1927 Act should be pursued before we make the exceptions that are now asked for. I am opposing the inclusion of Sunday, the 21st, and I ask the House to delete the words in the amendment. I have the authority of the chief promoter of the Bill in the Dáil, to say that rather than face any opposition or any long controversy on this, he is prepared to accept that view, namely, the deletion of Sunday, the 21st, the hope being that the Bill can, and probably will, be accepted by the Dáil so as to become law and be effective for Sunday next.

There is a great danger that, if this amendment is carried, the Bill will be lost and the Act will not be available to be put in force on Sunday next, which is the principal day affected, because, as we all know, it is proposed that the Dáil should terminate its business this evening. If there is an amendment now inserted, it would have to be considered by the Dáil before the Bill could become law. The Bill before us was passed unanimously by the Dáil. It would be a very serious matter for us to take up the position that we would endanger the passage of a Bill that is required for Sunday next. Senator Johnson referred to the relaxation of the hours for the opening of the public houses. As I pointed out last night, there is no proposal in this Bill to increase the number of hours during which the public houses may open in Cork City on Sunday next. What the Bill proposes is to merely change the hours, that instead of opening from two to five they can open from five to eight. The Bill in no way affects the cause of temperance. On the ground that this amendment, if passed, might endanger the passage of the Bill, I oppose it.

I am opposed to the amendment. The demand that has been made for the change in the hours for opening in Cork City has not been made by the members of the licensed trade. The demand for the proposed change has come from the nation. When the Licensing Bill of 1927 was going through the Oireachtas we pointed out the difficulties that would inevitably arise by depriving licensed traders in the four boroughs of the privilege accorded to licensed traders in other parts of the country. Despite the case that we put up, we were turned down. The development that we pointed out at the time that would take place if the case that we then made was not acceded to has, in fact, taken place, and Parliament has been forced to recognise it, not, mind you, on the initiation of the licensed trade but of the nation. I happened to be in Cashel on Sunday week. The Minister for Justice and other Ministers were also there. There were between thirty and forty thousand people in Cashel on that day. The law, as it stands, enabled that huge concourse of people to be catered for and there was no necessity to come to Parliament to get special legislation passed. That, I suggest, affords the best possible evidence that the four exempted cities have been very unfairly differentiated against.

Senator Johnson is quite agreeable that the Bill should go through if the change in the hours for opening is confined to Sunday the 14th. I suggest that it is quite as reasonable to ask that the provisions of the Bill should also apply to Sunday the 21st, because, I would like to point out, special facilities are not being asked for in regard to the hours of opening. The period for opening will be the same as it is at present, the only change being that instead of opening between 2 and 5, people can open their establishments between 5 and 8. If there was a real genuine objection to the proposal to include Sunday, 21st, in the Bill, I would be prepared to fall in with that, inasmuch as the conditions resulting from the operation of the Licensing Act of 1927 are shortly to come up for review. I think that I am correct in stating that a Commission will be soon sitting to deal with that whole subject, but I hold that there is an absolute necessity for applying the provisions of the Bill to Sunday the 21st, as well as to Sunday the 14th. If, for instance, the athletic youth of Ireland assemble in Thurles, Kilkenny, Athlone or in any other town outside the four exempted cities on any Sunday in the year their requirements can be catered for, and there is no need to have special legislation passed. I have seen huge crowds of people in these places time after time, and there has been no need to have special legislation passed to meet such a situation. It is most unfair, I think, that the four cities of Dublin, Cork, Waterford and Limerick should be differentiated against in the way that they have been. We have pressed for a review of the whole situation and we have been promised that that review will take place soon. If Senator Johnson and those with him have a serious objection to facilitating the athletic youth of Ireland in Cork on Sunday, 21st July, then let them take the responsibility for pressing their objection. I do not want to deal with the matter further.

I ask Senator Johnson not to press his amendment. There seems to be a disposition in the House to support Senator Linehan's motion. It does seem unfair that Cork would not be put in the same position as a place, say, like Thurles.

As to the principle involved in this, I entirely agree with Senator Johnson, and I think he is absolutely right. If Senator Linehan or Senator Fanning can make a case for this, then they can only do so by reason of very unusual circumstances. Senator Linehan made the point that if Senator Johnson's amendment was persisted in it might have the effect of holding up this Bill, and depriving Cork of the facilities which many of us in this House are prepared to give it on Sunday next. If it were not for the fact that we might deprive the city of Cork from getting those facilities on Sunday next, I, for one, would certainly vote against the Bill altogether. Senator Fanning's remarks had no relevancy good, bad or indifferent to the Bill before us. They have a relevancy in respect of the whole system under which the sale of intoxicating liquor is carried on in the State. If that question is to be raised, let it be raised at the proper time. I do not want to give a silent vote on this matter. I want to protest against the adoption of practices which have recently been creeping in. We have had examples of those practices in other places. It was only last week that, in a certain town in the Free State a superintendent of the Civic Guards made application to the District Justice to have the hours altered during which the public-houses in that town might open on a particular Sunday. The application was based on the statement of the superintendent that there was to be a sports meeting held in that town on the Sunday. I take it that we should legislate very definitely on this matter. If these facilities are to be granted, then let it be decided definitely and finally that power will be given to a lesser body than the Oireachtas to make these changes when necessary. If I vote for the passage of this Bill, I do so solely in order that facilities may be granted for Sunday next in Cork.

I have been speaking to the Deputy who has charge of this Bill in the Dáil. At my suggestion he has made representations, and I think, probably arrangements, for the Dáil to take this amendment this evening if the Seanad agrees to accept it. That is the reason why this Bill has been taken out of its place on the Order Paper in the Seanad to-day.

I want to protest against the time of the Seanad being wasted by a discussion on the question as to whether the people who assemble in Cork on a particular day should be allowed to slake their thirst between the hours of 5 and 8 or 2 and 5. I think it is beneath the dignity of the Seanad to be discussing the question at all. I think the proper place to discuss it is in the District Court or some place like that.

What I want to impress on the Seanad is that this application did not emanate from the licensed trade or from anyone associated with it. It emanated from executive authority.

Not from the Executive of the State.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 21; Níl, 10.

  • William Barrington.
  • Sir Edward Coey Bigger.
  • Samuel L. Brown, K.C.
  • Miss Kathleen Browne.
  • Caitlín Bean Uí Chléirigh.
  • The Countess of Desart.
  • Thomas Farren.
  • Thomas Foran.
  • Right Hon. Andrew Jameson.
  • Thomas Johnson.
  • Sir John Keane.
  • Patrick W. Kenny.
  • The McGillycuddy of the Reeks.
  • James Moran.
  • Sir Walter Nugent.
  • Joseph O'Doherty.
  • John T. O'Farrell.
  • M.F. O'Hanlon.
  • Siobhán Bean an Phaoraigh.
  • Séumas Robinson.
  • Richard Wilson.

Níl

  • Michael Comyn, K.C.
  • Michael Fanning.
  • Thomas Linehan.
  • Francis MacGuinness.
  • John MacLoughlin.
  • Seán Milroy.
  • Colonel Moore.
  • Joseph O'Connor.
  • James J. Parkinson.
  • Thomas Toal.
Amendment declared carried.
Section 1, as amended, agreed to.
Section 2 agreed to.
THE TITLE.

I move amendment 2:—

Title. To delete in line 17 the words and figures "and Sunday the 21st."

This amendment is consequential on the last amendment that has been carried.

Amendment put and agreed to.
The Seanad went out of Committee.
Bill reported with amendments.
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