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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Mar 1931

Vol. 14 No. 12

Poor Relief (Dublin) Bill, 1931—Fifth Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

I want to put a question to the Minister regarding the working of the Poor Law Relief Act. The point I desire to have elucidated is with regard to the activities of the Department in respect of the provision of relief in the case of persons receiving National Health Insurance benefit. It is the law that Guardians shall not take into account any moneys received by the applicant under the heading of National Health Insurance benefit, provided such benefit does not exceed 7s. 6d. per week. I am informed that it is becoming the practice—if it has not been established as the practice— in Dublin for the guardians to take no notice of that provision of the National Health Insurance Act, and, in fact, to take into account the amount of benefit being received under that Act by sick persons. I think the position of the Minister, and our position in regard to this Bill, preclude me from going into the details of local administration. But it is opportune and right that I should try to find out from the Minister whether his Department has indicated to the Guardians and Boards of Assistance throughout the country, by any regulation or order, that this provision of the National Health Insurance Act should not operate, and, if not, will he state here, for the benefit of those concerned, that this is the law and must be obeyed by the people con cerned in the administration of poor law relief? The provision I refer to is in the Schedule to the National Health Insurance Act, 1920, and it is as follows:—

In the granting of outdoor relief to a person in receipt of, or entitled to receive, any benefit from this Act, the Board of Guardians shall not take into consideration any such benefits except in so far as such benefits exceed 7/6 per week.

If I am rightly informed, the Guardians in Dublin, and perhaps boards elsewhere, are taking this National Health Insurance benefit into account and thus clearly disobeying the law. It is obviously the right of the applicant to require that such law is obeyed. I am sure the Minister will inform the House and, through the House, the Guardians and the public whether or not there has been anything done by his Department to indicate to the Guardians that this law is inoperative or that it should in any way be suspended. That is the sole purpose of my intervention.

The law referred to by Senator Johnson is operative and, in my opinion, is properly operative. It is provided for under Section 109 of the National Health Insurance Act, 1911, as amended by the Schedule which the Senator has referred to, that Boards of Guardians, in granting outdoor relief, are not to take into consideration the amount received by the person applying for relief under the National Health Insurance Act in so far as that sum exceeds 7s. 6d. per week. Firstly, I should like to say that no regulation suggesting that that law should in any way be evaded, has been issued by my Department, and I would be very much surprised to know that the Guardians in Dublin would inadvertently, or after their attention had been drawn to the matter, endeavour to evade that law. I have had no approach from any injured party in the matter suggesting that they had been unable to obtain redress from Guardians. I should not like to be brought into the matter until the Dublin Union Committee has received the complaint directly and has had an opportunity of considering it. The position of the Minister for Local Government is that he keeps as far away as possible from interference with the discretion of the poor law authorities in dealing with outdoor relief. That is the position and I hesitate to think that the law is being offended against in the City of Dublin. There may be cases in which relief has been refused where persons have been in receipt of National Health Insurance benefit but in those cases there may have been other factors as well.

I think Senators may be assured that that is the law, that the Dublin Union authorities are hardly ignorant of the fact that it is the law, and that if there be any misunderstanding as to the law being offended against, if the matter is brought to the notice of the Dublin Union authorities, I feel sure they will bow to the law and bow willingly.

Question put and declared carried.
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