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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Jun 1931

Vol. 14 No. 22

Juries (Protection) Bill, 1931—Second Stage.

Question proposed: That this Bill be now read a Second Time.
[The Leas-Chathaoirleach took the Chair.]

This is a Bill to extend, for another two years, the Juries (Protection) Act. I need not remind the House that that Act was passed largely because attempts were being made to intimidate jurymen in this country from doing their duty as jurymen. That intimidation had gone so far that actually on one occasion an attempt was made to murder an individual juryman. There are some provisions in the original Act which I myself would like to see, and hope I will see, made the permanent law of this country. There are other provisions which may be regarded as of a more temporary nature. When the original Bill was introduced it was limited to a period of two years in the hope that at the expiration of that time a certain organisation which is anxious, by means of murder and other outrages, to disturb settled conditions in this country, would have ceased to be in existence. Unfortunately, that is not now the case, and in consequence I ask the Seanad to extend the operation of the measure for another two years in order that jurymen may be able to carry out their duties as jurymen free from threat and menace.

I need not go into the provisions of this Bill. They are familiar, I am sure, to Senators. The measure was very fully debated in the Seanad a couple of years ago. It has worked extremely well. The intimidation of juries has been rendered by that measure not merely difficult, but practically impossible. In fact, when a recent attempt was made to circularise jurymen, those who wished to do so found themselves faced with an impossible position, because they had not, and they could not get, the existing current panel of jurymen. The result was that all they could do was to circularise every name on the panel. They only succeeded in circularising a comparatively small number of persons on the panel and a very large number indeed of jurymen who were not on that particular panel. But the fact that an attempt was recently made to intimidate jurymen shows the necessity for continuing this measure for the protection of jurymen. I might also point out that so completely has the measure stopped the intimidation or circularisation of jurymen that we have never found it necessary to put in force the powers conferred by Section 8 of the Principal Act—that is, the postponement of a trial where jurymen had been intimidated. I would ask the Seanad, in consequence, to pass this measure.

I am surprised that the Minister for Justice, himself a lawyer, should come forward with a proposal for the extension of the life of this Juries Act, but I am much more surprised at the reasons which he has given. He has informed the House that the Juries Act has been a success, that it has put a stop to the intimidation of jurymen. He has also informed the House that it is necessary to continue it because there has been one example of intimidation of jurymen by means of a circular. Of course, the Minister has sources of information that other people have not, and I take it, as he says it, that there has been intimidation. Now, in my opinion the Juries Act is a dead letter. There is a great deal of formality in relation to the empanelling of jurors. They come in, in a mysterious way, by number. They are not called by name, and they go into the box. You are not supposed to know who they are or what they are. I do not like to use a vulgar phrase in connection with this Bill, but it seems to me that there is a lot of fee-faw-fum and humbug about the Juries Act.

What is the reason suggested by the Minister for the continuation of this measure? The same reason that he urged originally for the introduction of this most reactionary measure. What is it? That a man who had served on a jury was wounded. That incident had occurred six months before the original Bill was before the House. Now, that incident is at least three years back in the pages of history. Does the Minister suggest that the ordinary principles of public liberty and the ordinary administration of justice should be, in appearance at least, completely subverted because a juryman was wounded three years ago? I do not know about the circumstances of that case, but seeing that no other juryman has been interfered with, I would be inclined to think that probably the assault upon the juryman on that occasion, three years ago, was not in consequence of his having served on a jury at all. At any rate that is a ridiculous excuse to give for such a flagrant invasion of the Constitution as this Bill is, in form at least. I say in form, because in substance the principles of human liberty are so firmly embedded in the minds and consciences of the people that they seem to run their course without much disturbance by reason of this Juries Act.

I want to tell members of the House this. If an ordinary prisoner wishes to canvass jurors—I dare say it is more difficult for him—but if an organisation wishes to canvass jurors there is no impediment whatever put in its way by the provisions of this Juries Act. I do not want to let people know—evil-disposed persons, well-disposed persons, or any persons—how the thing can be done, but once men go into the courthouse at Green Street it is perfectly obvious that an organisation can canvass them quite as easily as they could canvass them before this Juries Act was passed. My mind revolts against this Juries Act, not for any injustice that it has been capable of accomplishing, but because it is contrary to the free, open, unashamed and unafraid administration of justice. I am against it for that reason as my main reason. I have another objection to the Juries Act, and it is this. It provides for a majority verdict in criminal cases. I am opposed to a majority verdict in criminal cases, and for this fundamental reason: that the right of the State to punish is, I think, conditioned by this, that an offence must be committed against the laws of the State, and not merely that, but proved beyond reasonable doubt against the individual according to the laws of the State.

There are really three conditions which limit the right of the State to punish: there must be an act done; there must be proof that it was done, and that proof must be according to the forms of law and of such a character as to leave no reasonable doubt. Why I am against a majority verdict is this, that if there is a doubt in the mind of any one of the sworn twelve— that is, a reasonable doubt—it might be said: "Oh, why should we wait to try and persuade a boot-eater on the jury to agree with the others?" Now, sometimes the one man who stands out is the man who has formed a correct judgment on the evidence, but under this Bill if three men stand out a verdict of guilty can still be found against a citizen. If what one man considers in opposition to the opinions of eleven can be called unreasonable, can what three men consider be called unreasonable? Most assuredly not.

I say it is wrong in an ordinary criminal case to punish a citizen unless you have a unanimous finding with a regular trial, but it is a hundred times more wrong where the result of the verdict and of the judgment is death, where the sentence is irrevocable. It is absolutely and entirely wrong that a man should be sentenced to death and executed upon the verdict of a jury unless that verdict is unanimous. If the Minister considers that that is one of the matters that ought to be made permanent, I wish to let him know that it will have my undying hostility and opposition. We had a very long and very bitter discussion upon the original measure. It is a foolish measure and a futile measure. It is a measure which shows that men were prepared, for a temporary purpose, to turn their backs on what they knew to be long established principles of the administration of justice.

Ever since the Seanad was formed, Ministers have been bringing in one long series of coercion Bills. Each one was supposed to accomplish the pacification of this country, and, according to the Minister, not one of them seems to have succeeded. The Minister is the champion of the coercionists of this country. We have had Buckshot Forster, and Bloody Balfour, and a lot of others, going back to time immemorial, but there is one who did what nobody else ever did—brought in such measures as this. The Minister and his predecessors in office have been bringing in these Bills time after time. I warned them and the Labour Party warned them, that the line which was being taken of coercion would not bring peace to this country, that it would only cause suspicion regarding the objects to be attained, and the actions of those ordered to carry out those things. Justice is not respected as much now as it was a few years ago, because the people are beginning to distrust the motive of these measures. They are considered to be political, and, very often, they are political.

I know, for instance, what is being said in this town over a late action—I do not want to specify anything at the present moment. Certainly a very terrible thing occurred. There is no possible excuse and no possible doubt about the matter. Yet, on account of these suspicions people are going round the place suspecting it was done altogether wrong. On account of those political things being brought forward people are losing confidence in the method of administering justice in this country, and in the conduct of those who are supposed to carry it out. They have grave suspicions about it and are, consequently, losing even that confidence in the country which ought to exist.

I object to this Bill for the reasons I have objected to every single coercion Bill brought into this House for the last nine or ten years. I know that there are a certain number of people whose minds are so fixed on coercion that they think they can settle everything. It has always failed to settle anything in this country. Never has it succeeded in my lifetime or the lifetime of those who went before me. The same people have been going on in the same way, and the results are always the same. Yet, people like the Minister imagine they can settle matters by bringing in a ridiculous Bill to prevent people knowing who jurors are when they are up in a box for anybody who wishes to look at them, and when people from their own locality can make their names known.

I object to this Bill, but I cannot agree with Senator Colonel Moore that it is a coercive measure. It is intended to be a protective measure. I believe that it is unnecessary in the one direction, and that it is ineffective in the other. It is unnecessary in ordinary criminal cases. There is no intimidation, or suggestion of intimidation, of jurors in ordinary criminal cases. There has been intimidation of jurors in so-called political cases and, unfortunately, as is fairly well known, that intimidation still goes on. Notwithstanding the secrecy and all the measures that have been taken on the lines of this Bill, jurors are still getting intimation of certain trials that are coming on; their patriotism is being appealed to and covert threats are being indulged in in certain eventualities.

Intimidation is going on notwithstanding the Juries Act, and I think the Minister will admit that in any case at the present time where the accused can claim that his act is political, that it is an act against the State, it is utterly impossible to get a jury to convict. Life is very sweet and a juror who has to go home and live by himself in the dead of night, a man whom the State cannot protect on every occasion, is not, except in very rare circumstances, likely to risk his life for the sake of upholding the authority and majesty of the State. From that point of view—getting convictions in crimes committed against the State—this Act is, in my opinion, absolutely ineffective, and in ordinary cases it is entirely and absolutely unnecessary. One will admit that something has got to be done to try to uphold the right of trial by jury and prevent wholesale intimidation and what is known as embracery, particularly in the City of Dublin. A measure to this end was adopted in the original Act. It was the best, seemingly, that Ministers could conceive. Yet I think that they will themselves, privately at all events, admit that it has been entirely ineffective and that they have evidence in their hands to show it has been. The jurors are known, and whenever a case of this sort comes along jurors are threatened or intimidated. The result is that trial by jury for criminal political offences is an absolute farce, and the sooner the Government recognise that the better, instead of trying to make believe that they are protecting jurors by merely re-enacting or extending by this Bill the powers under existing legislation.

The difficulty in a matter of this kind is that judgment as to whether an Act should or should not be extended can only be accurately and effectively formed by those who are in an administrative position. Most of us will agree with Senator Comyn in disliking the majority of nine to three in criminal cases. We do not want to see that permanent. If I were in the position of Senator Comyn or Senator Colonel Moore— that I wanted to see the Government out of power and did not trust them— I would take their point of view on this question, because if I did not trust them I would not accept their judgment on this question. The reason I am prepared to support this Bill is because the original Act was passed as the best measure the present administration could devise for dealing with the difficulty. The reason for the majority of nine to three is to render it more difficult to have intimidation. I do not like that majority. Nevertheless, I do believe that it is more difficult to have intimidation where nine jurors are sufficient to return a verdict. I am supporting the Bill because I believe that we have got the best available Government in power and that we are absolutely obliged, if we trust them at all, to take their opinion as to whether the period specified for this Act should end or should not end.

Why say "available"?

I said "the best available Government." I suggest that the course I mentioned is the only right course for the House to take. I believe that what Senator O'Farrell has stated is substantially true—that a certain amount of intimidation is still going on. As to how far this Act has been effective in reducing it, it is impossible for us to judge. For my part, I will support the continuance of the Act because I believe that this is one of the cases where those who are responsible for carrying out the law must judge whether an enactment should be continued or not.

Senator O'Farrell concluded his remarks by saying that in this country trial by jury for offences in which the criminal alleged political motives was an entire farce. I cannot agree. If I agreed with him, then it would be my duty to produce a measure which would ensure that justice would be properly administered and which would provide that the jury system would be temporarily, at any rate, suspended and substituted by some other system. But I do not agree with the Senator. I am aware that there have been certain cases in which, what I might call, very bad verdicts of acquittal have been brought in. But I know that in a considerable number of other cases the jurors have done their duty and have brought in verdicts of guilty where on the evidence the person charged was clearly guilty. I say that the Act has, in fact, worked and that intimidation of juries has been reduced to a negligible point. Senator Colonel Moore talks about this as a Coercion Act. He goes back to Buckshot Forster and Bloody Balfour, and he makes the same kind of speech that we always hear from the Senator on matters of this kind. Senator Colonel Moore's view always is that anybody who says "I do not like the present administration" is entitled to arm himself and at any cost of blood to remove the present administration or the present form of government. Anybody who prohibits that kind of crime is, according to Senator Colonel Moore, a coercionist. I do not mind in the slightest being called a coercionist. It does not frighten me in the least degree. I think that all law is coercion. That a person who desires to commit murder should not be allowed to do so is, of course, coercion. That law does not give him his freedom. That a man should not be allowed to rob a bank or to rob another person is coercion. The law preventing that does not give him his freedom. All law is coercion.

According to Senator Colonel Moore, the people concerned under this Bill are being coerced. They are being prevented from committing crime. That is what the criminal law exists for. The criminal law in every country is and must be coercive. The word "coercion" does not frighten me in the slightest. The view of Senator Colonel Moore is: "Let them do what they like; let them arm and commit any kind of outrage and any kind of violence; when they have murdered enough and looted enough and destroyed the country, they will get weary and give up." That is the statesmanship of Senator Colonel Moore, but I do not think it is the statesmanship of anybody else in the House.

Senator Comyn says that because there was only one attempt made to murder a juryman three years ago, this Act should not be continued. Senator Comyn should be able to draw the conclusion that the fact that an attempt was made to murder that juryman because he acted in a particular criminal case shows that the organisation, one of whose members he found guilty, were willing to go to this extreme. Not only that, but the other members of that particular jury were followed about and intimidated, and had to be put under protection at the time. We know, and everybody in this House knows, that that organisation, if they could, would carry on, and do so at the present moment. They are not quiescent. They have not got tired of murder. We know that there was a very serious murder a short time ago committed by that very organisation in the County Tipperary.

This is monstrous. You have no proof that either of the murders, as you call them, was committed by members of that organisation.

By members of the I.R.A.?

We had another murder very recently in Dublin—the murder of young Carroll. We have had other attempts all through the country. At the present moment, that particular organisation is active and very active. This is the particular time that Senator Comyn comes forward to oppose a Bill, the result of his opposition, if successful, being to facilitate this organisation in going on further and committing more crimes against those jurymen who do their duty.

Question put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 18 8; Níl, 8.

  • John Bagwell.
  • William Barrington.
  • Samuel L. Brown, K.C.
  • R.A. Butler.
  • Mrs. Costello.
  • John C. Counihan.
  • The Countess of Desart.
  • James G. Douglas.
  • P.J. Hooper.
  • Cornelius Kennedy.
  • The McGillycuddy of the Reeks.
  • Joseph O'Connor.
  • L. O'Neill.
  • Dr. William O'Sullivan.
  • Michael Staínes.
  • Thomas Toal.
  • A.R. Vincent.
  • Richard Wilson.

Níl

  • Michael Comyn, K.C.
  • J.C. Dowdall.
  • Thomas Foran.
  • Thomas Johnson.
  • Colonel Moore.
  • Joseph O'Doherty.
  • John T. O'Farrell.
  • Séumas Robinson.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Douglas and O'Sullivan; Níl, Senators Comyn and O'Farrell.
Motion declared carried.
Committee Stage fixed for Wednesday, 24th June, 1931.
The Seanad adjourned at 7.10 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 24th June, 1931.
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