This Bill makes provision for an expenditure under two distinct heads: firstly, by the Minister in discharge of his functions under the Act of 1925, of £335,000; secondly, by the Electricity Supply Board, for the provision of additional generating capacity, of £365,000. The provision made for expenditure by the Minister will be final so far as he is concerned. It covers broadly four heads:—The settlement of the contractors' claim; the settlement of claims for compensation; certain minor works; and the costs of administration. There is provision in the Bill for the Electricity Supply Board expenditure on an additional unit at Ardnacrusha and a steam unit in the Pigeon House. It was estimated that there would be an increase in consumption of fourteen per cent. per annum, on the basis of annual consumption. With regard to the two units that it is contemplated erecting, close consideration was given by the officials of the Board, and by the engineers and the experts, with regard to the relative merits of a purely hydro-electric erection; consideration was also given to the possibility of the steam generation, and to the combination of both. It has been decided, after going into the matter closely with the experts and the Board, that a joint or a combination scheme, embodying the hydro-electric unit and the steam unit, should be proceeded with. The Bill really empowers the Electricity Supply Board to go on with their further scheme of development and similarly with the original Shannon scheme and the figures are stipulated in the various stages of the Act. It is an inevitable development to cope with the demand for electric power that is manifest throughout the country. If there are any other points not quite clear to the Senators, I shall be glad to explain them from the memoranda.
(Public Business.) - Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Bill, 1932—Second Stage.
I suppose the gist of the whole of this Bill lies in line 36, that in lieu of the words deleted, £2,365,000 should be inserted. That is to say, what the House is considering is the question of adding £365,000 to what we have already agreed to spend. I believe that the facts, which the Minister referred to, are that the demand for electricity has now reached a point where the present plant will not supply the requirements and that the consideration of spending this money has been extremely carefully gone into. The Minister will correct me if I am not right. I believe that this is not politics at all but a matter of pure, solid business, and that they have found out, after considering various schemes, the best way of increasing the production power of the scheme. I am not sure whether we are to be given any more precise information. I presume that we will be given more information on the Committee Stage of the Bill as to how the money will be spent, where the machinery will be put—whether at Ardnacrusha or an extension of coal plant, or whatever it is. I believe it will be told to us in due course. It is also my opinion that we in this House, when discussing the previous Bill, were greatly handicapped by our want of figures and our lack of knowledge of the condition in which the accounts were. I would ask the Minister, therefore, if he would be able to give us, on the later stages, some statement as to when he thinks these accounts will be given to us, and when we can really, as a set of shareholders in this big electricity scheme, arrive at some information which will tell us whether the scheme is making money and whether this new money which we are putting in is going to earn money, and if, generally speaking, the scheme is a good one. I believe that that is so and I believe that the information can be given to us and that the accounts will be given to us and I am only speaking now in order to ask the Minister would he kindly, before we get on to the Committee Stage, get some information in order to be able to answer any of the questions which some of us may put to him at that stage of the proceedings.
I should like to ask the Minister whether in the event of this new turbine being put in, will it in any way affect navigation on the waters of the Shannon? In the debate in the other House last week I saw where there was some question of the lowering of the level of Lough Ree. If that were done I am afraid that it would stop navigation from Athlone up to Carrick-on-Shannon.
I should like to ask the Minister what additional amount is to be spent on the spreading of the network. Have there been any additional plans with regard to the distribution system? I think that it was agreed that the more electricity consumed, the cheaper would be the price to the consumer. Quite a number of areas have had to pay an additional 25 per cent. in charges and the other varying increases coming down to about 12½ per cent. Those of us who are paying these additional charges are looking to the day when we will get back to the price originally fixed. Can the Minister say that there is a reduction in the cost of electricity? It will depend on the price to the consumer. The original plan of the Board, I understand, at least the plan of the late Managing Director or Chairman of it, was to spread the network far and wide into the smallest towns, and even vilages if possible, with a view to having a national network of distribution lines so as to get the greatest possible amount of consumption. There seems to be a tendency of late to develop on other lines, to effect economies rather than to increase consumption. I have seen complaints from various towns of fairly good size that they are not getting the network and that they have prospects of getting fairly large consumption if the distribution is extended to them. A good deal of disappointment is expressed as to the very slow motion of the Board in this connection. I do not know how much of the additional money referred to in this Bill is to go in that particular direction. Obviously, the consumption must be increasing, seeing that an additional turbine is to be put in at Ardnacrusha and an additional unit at the Pigeon House fort. I would be sorry to think that there was a slowing down rather than an encouragement to every consumer in the country to buy electricity. Already the price is too high and we cannot very well hope that it is going to be any lower except we are going to have an increase in the number of consumers.
I should like to know will there be any possibility of the farmers of the country getting a supply at a reasonable cost. When this Act was going through originally, the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, Mr. McGilligan, put forward glowing hopes that the whole country would be brightened and that farmers would be in the same position as anybody else. I find that practically not a single farmer in the whole area has a supply. I put forward a scheme to the Chairman of the Board pointing out the necessity for electricity on the farms and also pointing out that the farmers could not afford to pay the full cost of installation and that they did not expect to get power and light at the same cost as in the big centres of production, and if he could spread the scheme and the cost of installation and erection over a period of years the farmers would be very anxious to avail of it. I should be glad if the Minister would give me some hope that the farmers would be afforded this opportunity and that some such scheme would be proposed when the new turbine is erected.
I live in a part of the country where the people would be very anxious to co-operate with the Electricity Supply Board, and to take their suplies if the price were reasonable. The fact is that the price is really prohibitive. People would not dream of going to the expense of taking advantage of the electricity supply at the present moment. At Naas, near where I live, there is a transformer station. The farmers in the neighbourhood expected that after some little time supplies would be made available for them and that it would be an easy matter, and that they would get electricity at a reasonable rate. I am glad to see that there is going to be increased supply now. We are looking forward with patience and in the hope that prices might come down in which case we would be very glad to avail of the supplies. The prices, at the present time, are excessive.
I would like to ask the Minister when we are likely to have the 1930 and 1931 accounts. If my recollection serves me right the late Minister was very hopeful that they would be much accelerated under the direction of the German expert, I think, that was called in. We were led to believe that we would have them long since. After all it is not satisfactory, if you apply the analogy of a commercial firm, that the balance sheet should not be available fifteen months after the close of the financial year. We should expect, now that the initial difficulty has been got over, more or less ordinary commercial expedition.
Another question—and I do not ask this in any mischievous spirit. I would like to know to what extent it will be necessary to use imported coal, and whether the question of local coal was considered. One of the early advantages we were told of electrification would be that there would be no necessity to import foreign coal. As we have coal in this country, I ask to what extent will that be used? I would, also, like to ask whether any of this new money on the development of the network is going to be spent in giving a more satisfactory service to users in villages and small towns. Perhaps the Minister is not aware, but if not his experts will be, that we are a long way off from the time that was forecast, when we should have the all-electric house. If one were to wire, nowadays, for an all-electric house, one would not get enough current to supply two radiators, and not enough to cook with. The reason, I understand, is that the distributing mains are not heavy enough, and until these are increased the all-electric house is something in the dim and distant future. I would like to know what is the Government's policy on that. I am sure the purpose is to concentrate on a more paying rate. I am not surprised. But as the service has been installed I think those who get the service are entitled, once they get it, to a full service, even at the cost of more development in the denser areas of population. I know it is difficult in these national schemes always to keep up the business-like point of view, but I would like a statement from the Minister on this point.
I may as well be quite frank about this. I am probably not so expert as I should like to be on the technical side to deal with the various points raised. I think the Seanad requires no explanation as regards that. With regard to the figures already embodied in this Bill, I would like to explain that out of the amount included in Section 2, the sum of £150,000 will go to the final settlement of the contractor's disputed account. The main claim, in what is probably known as the extras account, by the contractors, was £1,055,000. There was a great deal of controversy about that amount. Many of us raised the matter in the Seanad with the late Minister for Industry and Commerce, as to what this amount was to be, and as to what arrangement was made. We even questioned his attempt to get two millions and as to whether he could give us any information as to what made up all this. To make a long story short the position now is that £150,000, out of the amount we are voting in this Bill, is going to a settlement of the disputed account. So far as I know that clears the entire of the contractor's bill. Whether that is a good or a bad bargain I cannot say. It looks good on the figures, but I do not know. On the question, as regards the auditing of the accounts, which was raised by Senator Jameson and Senator Sir John Keane, the position is that the Board's accounts for 1930 and 1931 are now being audited, and that audit is expected to be completed by the end of August. The Board's accounts for 1931 and 1932 will be ready for audit in July, and ought to be completed in September. That is the advice I have at my disposal at the moment.
With regard to the question as to whether the networks are being encouraged, there is in fact no provision in this Bill for the provision of networks, or the extension of the existing networks, but it is to be remembered there is an amount still lying to credit out of the original two millions, voted during the late Executive's régime, and a considerable amount of that money is still available for such development. With regard to the question of how quickly or how far, the extension of the networks will go, that is entirely a matter for the Electricity Supply Board, and the Department, as such, has really no control over that development. Recommendations of course can be made with regard to that, and will be duly noted and passed on to the Board.
Senator Counihan raised the question of the possibility of the farmers getting more facilities for electrical supplies and cheaper electricity and more reasonable terms. I am not in a position to state what the Electricity Supply Board are able to do in that regard, nor can I say how far the late Minister was justified in holding out hope of all-electric farm houses or anything else. We will be in a position, when we get the audited accounts, to understand how things are, and everybody will be able to make his own criticisms there. We had to keep in mind the fact that this was a national scheme. We had to carry on, and to make it possible to ensure that the Electricity Supply Board will be able to go on with the development and not be hampered in any way. At the same time we all had our criticism of many of the things done by the Electricity Supply Board on the whole scheme, and, no doubt, we will still have a certain amount of criticism in that direction. The amounts voted now are, however, absolutely essential for the continuation and extension of the necessary work. We have practically reached a point when we cannot afford to risk going on without being ready by extension for increased demand. It is with a view to the provision of that and, also, the final wiping out of the disputed account of the contractor that this measure is before you.
With regard to the point raised by Senator Sir John Keane, it is a technical matter. I certainly would be very glad to see home coal used if possible in the new steam unit that is going to be installed. Whether that is practicable, from the point of view of location, and whether the coal is suitable for the purposes or not, I do not know. But I know the matter is raised, and has been raised, at the Executive Council and considerable interest has been taken in it. If, of course, it was possible to say whether Castlecomer or other home coal could be used no one would be keener than the present Executive Council.
Senator O'Connor dealt with the same points as those raised by Senator Counihan. The question of prices has been a burning one for some time. The accounts will disclose that there is not much likelihood, at the moment, of getting any reduction in price, if the scheme is not only to pay its way but to contribute anything at all towards the amounts for sinking fund and the amortisation of capital. These are the only points raised and so far as a nontechnical and comparatively inexperienced person could, dealing with this type of measure, I have given all the information at my disposal.
Is the Minister in a position to answer the question that I put to him in regard to the lowering of Lough Ree? There is an amount of traffic on the Grand Canal from Dublin through Banagher and Athlone and right on to Carrick-on-Shannon. If the level is lowered navigation on these waters, we understand, will probably not be possible. I have only seen the matter in the papers, but if the Minister is in a position to answer the question I should be glad; if not, perhaps he would let me know later on.
In reference to the matter mentioned by the Senator there is nothing in this Bill that deals with such a problem. If there was anything in the way of a permanent reduction of the level that would be dealt with. It may be that certain action would be required, either with regard to the land, or the fisheries or anything involved, but that would be the basis of a separate measure from this.