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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 13 Dec 1933

Vol. 17 No. 28

Oireachtas (Payment of Members) Bill, 1933 (Certified Money Bill)—Committee.

Section 1 put and agreed to.
SECTION 2.

Senator Johnson raised a point on Section 2 on the Second Reading as to what would happen if, by any chance, either House of the Oireachtas—I presume he intended to put it in its widest terms—were to make a standing order with which a newly-elected member would feel bound in conscience to refuse to comply. It is admitted that under the Constitution the Houses of the Oireachtas have power to make their own Standing Orders. If, however, a standing order were made which would conflict with the spirit of the Constitution by preventing a member, who was otherwise properly elected, from taking his seat— I do not think that that position could arise at all in regard to the Dáil, for which the Government is primarily responsible—but if it did arise in the Seanad, then I think a constitutional issue of very grave magnitude would be raised and that would have to be solved by whatever means and in whatever way seemed best at the time. I have not any doubt that the Executive Council elected by the Dáil would be able to resolve the crux in a satisfactory manner. However, I think that the whole question raised by Senator Johnson could be properly and safely left to the good sense of either House of the Oireachtas.

In connection with the whole of this matter we have to remember that one of the principles laid down for those engaged in the task of drafting Bills for the Oireachtas is that it must be assumed that the bodies or persons who are to exercise the functions in connection with the Bill when it becomes law will act reasonably. Otherwise, I submit it would be quite impossible to draft a Bill at all. To refer in this connection to Article 20 of the Constitution, to which the point raised by Senator Johnson is related, I should like to point out that when that Article gave power to the Houses of the Oireachtas to make their own Rules and Standing Orders it did not expressly seek to prevent either House from making absurd Standing Orders, Standing Orders which would be objectionable to members on conscientious grounds or Standing Orders which would be in conflict with the Constitution. The Article assumed that the Houses would carry out the duty of regulating their own procedure in a reasonable and intelligent way. When we bear these facts in mind, I suggest that the whole issue raised by Senator Johnson is disposed of satisfactorily. For the reassurance of members of the House, I may say that the Bill now before the Seanad was drafted after consultation with the Ceann Comhairle and the Cathaoirleach and that it represents, in the view of those interested, the best possible measure which could be introduced. The point raised by Senator Johnson was discussed between the Attorney-General and the Parliamentary draftsman, and they could see no other practical way of meeting the situation that has arisen in consequence of the amendment of the Constitution deleting the Oath therefrom.

I agree with what the Minister has said, but in the rather unnecessary distinction made between the two Houses it might easily be understood by persons outside that someone or other in this House contemplated in the near future some such proposal. I know that the Minister admits that there is no truth in that whatever. While I agree with the Minister's statement, I do not agree with the suggestion that because the Government happens to be responsible to the other House, you might not get intolerance towards a minority in the other House as easily as you would get it here. I agree that good sense would prevent that and that if either House attempted to use its powers to prevent members taking their seats in accordance with the Constitution, a way out would be found.

I am prepared to accept the view that there are practical difficulties in the way of an alternative, but I still think that the effect of this Bill will be to make a Standing Order, passed by a majority of one House, superior to an enactment. I think that that is undesirable as a matter of Parliamentary practice. I shall say no more on that, though I am tempted to do so.

Section agreed to.
Sections 3 to 6 inclusive and Title agreed to.
Bill reported. Report Stage fixed for Thursday.
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