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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Sep 1934

Vol. 19 No. 7

Manufacture of Motor Tyres in the Saorstát—Motion by Senator Sir John Keane.

I move:

That, in the absence of official particulars, the Seanad views with concern, the reported intention of the Government to grant to one firm the monopoly of manufacturing motor tyres in Saorstát Eireann.

It will be within the recollection of the House that when apprehension has been voiced at the probable effect of legislation which gave very wide powers to Ministers, and when it was said, by some of us, that power was passing away from Parliament into the hands of the Executive, not only the present Ministers but their predecessors have always said "You have got the power of motion; you have Parliament sitting from time to time and you can ask to raise these matters specifically when you think there is danger." I am taking that action now because I feel that in a recent happening there is, perhaps I cannot say danger, but very grave grounds for apprehension and there is very great uneasiness in the public mind, uneasiness which cannot find its full expression owing to the limited facilities for publicity that now exist. We know what we do know from fragments that have appeared in the public Press.

It appears that it is the intention of the Government to grant to one firm —it is immaterial how it is formed—the right to manufacture motor tyres and other rubber goods in the country. I would suggest that the bulk of the manufacture will be motor tyres and it is with motor tyres that this motion is mainly concerned. When I raised the question incidentally, on the Control of Manufactures Bill, which has just passed, the Minister said that it was to avoid the circumstances to which I am now referring, that Part III or Part IV of the Bill was passed. I can only ask why the matter could not have been kept over until the Control of Manufactures Bill was law because under the provisions of that Bill this present concession could be given with safeguards. It would have been necessary to come to Parliament, state your case, and get a resolution passed. My recollection is not quite clear as to whether it would be necessary to have it passed in the Dáil only or in both Houses. As it is, the Minister has given the concession indirectly and I suggest he is giving, in effect, a monopoly because he is placing a quota on imports pending the establishment by this firm, the Dunlop Rubber Company, of a factory in Cork. As soon as these works are in being and in production, there will be an effective prohibition of imports and that firm will have, I suggest, a virtual monopoly.

On general grounds, I suggest, action of that kind is most dangerous. It has been urged before that, in principle, the Government should not be given power to enter into contracts with firms and to give these firms a very distinctive and privileged position over other manufacturers. We cannot shut our eyes to the fact that where that has been done in other countries grave scandals, sooner or later, emerged and, as I said before, this country possesses its own share of original sin. I think it is the duty of the Legislature to take protective steps so as to avoid any possibility of temptation of that kind being placed in the way of Ministers or officials. I am not suggesting that in this case or in any case in the past, the action taken has not been perfectly free from corruption, but anybody with any knowledge of human nature must know that there is very grave danger in action of this kind. I would suggest to the House to adopt the view that it is most undesirable in the public interest that monopolies of this kind should be given without investigation or without any kind of public inquiry. The previous Government, I think, recognised that when they established the Tariff Commission, a body of independent persons, to investigate similar matters, because tariffed industries are, in effect, in the same position as monopolies. The previous Government set up a body of independent persons to carry out investigations and allowed all interested parties to appear before it. The evidence was taken in public.

There was a report, and in that report a case had to be made. Questions had to be dealt with under certain headings. That afforded very substantial safeguards. In this case we know nothing. We have no information as to the effect on employment. We do not know how many people are likely to be employed. We have no knowledge as to how many people are likely to be thrown out of employment. We know nothing whatever of the hardships or injustices that may follow from this Act. I know that there are two firms registered in this country for the purpose of distributing motor tyres not of Dunlop manufacture. These people paid stamp duty and acted fully within the law and, certainly, with an assurance that they would be allowed to trade freely. No doubt they are under contract with regard to the premises they have acquired. I have no doubt that they have lorries and other property. If this concession is going to work as expected, these people are going to be ruined. Does the Minister intend that any compensation should be given them? Are they going to be allowed, even as an act of grace, to make their case? I think that it is most unjust that consequences of that kind should be even contemplated. Where there is a possibility of wrongful acquisition, or even interference with the amenities of citizens in certain circumstances, in connection with local government, an inspector comes down and holds an inquiry. Everybody is heard and a report is made, following the inquiry. Nothing of this kind is being done in this case. Out of the blue comes a series of orders which, in effect, gives one firm a monopoly and, so far as we can see, may lead to the driving out of business and the substantial ruin of certain persons. I do not care how many of these persons there may be. If there are only half a dozen it is still a grave and gross injustice. The Minister should tell the House what capital outlay is likely to take place as a result of this concession. My information is— I have no technical knowledge and I give the information for what it is worth—that the requirements of this country do not justify an economic plant, that the approximate consumption of motor tyres in this country is 100,000 a year or, roughly, 300 per working day. That is not an economic output. If it is not economic, presumably the Company is not going to work at a loss. Whatever is not economic will be made up by increase in price or some deterioration in quality. Generally, we have a right to know what safeguards the Minister has imposed to secure that the public will not now or in the future pay any more for tyres of present quality. Moreover, we are entitled to know what steps the Minister has taken to secure that the present quality shall be maintained. Speaking without knowledge of motor tyre manufacture, I do not see that the Minister can ensure that merely by some declaration or written contract. The only possible way the Minister could ensure the maintenance of quality would be to get the firm to undertake that they would submit their tyres to the same running tests to which tyres are subjected at present. We know that there are what, I think, are called "bench tests." We see advertisements of a circular machine on which the tyres run round for so many hours at so many thousand revolutions per hour. Is the Minister taking steps to secure that these identical tests will be carried out in the factory in Cork and that there will be a representative of the Government there at all times to secure that the public are protected? That this is a most undesirable method of doing business I grant, but if these monopolies are created, these are the consequences that must flow if the public are to be protected. I ask the Minister whether or not he is going to insist that a representative of the Government will be present at the factory to protect the consumer. Can the Minister tell us whether we are, under this arrangement, going to have the same range of quality as at present, because that firm makes three qualities of tyres of the same size. Shall we have the same range of quality in the future that we have had in the past? I also ask the Minister to give us an estimate of what the loss of revenue will be. I am informed that the revenue derived from the duty on tyres at present is in the region of £100,000 or £150,000 a year. Has that been taken into consideration in reviewing the economics of this problem? We have a right to know, on the one side, how many men are to be brought into employment and, on the other side, how many men are going to be thrown out of employment. With regard to those likely to be displaced, I should say that some of them are earning from £6 to £7 per week, and that they contribute substantial amounts to the revenue in the shape of income tax and other charges.

Generally, I ask the House to take a very serious view of this whole transaction. It is most undesirable that we should be suddenly told that so-and-so has got a monopoly. Nothing is said; all is done in the dark, and we wake up to find that we are in the hands of a single firm—I do not care how eminent. Competition is abolished. The only alternative is the competition that nationals may provide, and no national will engage in capital outlay and instal machinery to go into competition with a firm of this kind. The public are very concerned about this matter, and the Government are lucky that Press facilities are so limited at present. It is for the Minister to make a full and frank statement to the House as to the transaction and as to the details arranged between the Government and this company. He should also state what steps the Government are taking to protect the consumer. Not merely should we have such a statement now, but that statement should be amplified by some white paper or document setting out in detail what has been done.

I second the motion.

I listened with very great interest to Senator Sir John Keane's speech, and, to a very large extent, I agree with it. I know that monopolies are very undesirable, but in the present circumstances we have to face the situation as it is to-day. There is no question about it, there is an enormous amount of money going out of this country for tyres. I think Senator Sir John Keane mentioned that there were 100,000 tyres required annually in Ireland. Roughly, I reckon that would mean at least £200,000 to £300,000 a year. This is a trade that can only be undertaken by a very big combine such as Dunlops, and in order to induce them to come into this country you have to give them very considerable advantages. I happen to know that, because I tried to get another company to do exactly what the Dunlop Company are doing. Looking at it from a business point of view, I think it is a perfectly sound proposition. Senator Sir John Keane has talked of the labour that will be displaced. Even though the company may have a monopoly, I still believe that all these distributing agents will be required. I can hardly follow him when he says an enormous amount of money has been sunk by these distributing agencies in Ireland, for, beyond the tyres that they have in stock, and which will probably go up in value now, and the houses they have built, I do not really see what other expense they have been put to. One extraordinary thing about making tyres is that it apparently requires an enormous variety of machinery.

I do not know whether it is contemplated that bicycle tyres will be made by this company. If it embraces bicycle tyres it will probably mean a very considerable addition to the 100,000 tyres Senator Sir John Keane talked of. I understand that you have to have almost a separate machine for every different make and size of tyre. It is really one of these businesses that I think it is very desirable to have in the country. We know perfectly well what a tremendous loss Dunlops has been to the City of Dublin. In days gone by they sent the Dunlop Tyre Company out of this city and it made its headquarters in Coventry and it helped to make Coventry, then a rather insignificant town, a very large and thriving city. I differ altogether with the mover of this resolution and I think it would be very wise for the Seanad to accept the situation which the Minister has brought about.

For once I find myself in agreement with Senator Crosbie. I am old enough to remember the advent of the pneumatic tyre. I rode bicycles with the solid and the cushion tyres and then with the pneumatic tyres. I have always felt that if a native Government had been in this country at the time that great industry would never have been driven out of the country. No doubt with the advent of the motor car factories would be established in other countries, but we would have the advantage of the employment given in the making of tyres in this city, where they were made in the first instance. It is easy to make a case such as Senator Sir John Keane has outlined with regard to a great many things, and no doubt monopolies, except you have one yourself, are rather objectionable things. With an industry of this sort, in view of the amount of capital which it entails, no private enterprise would have any chance against the people who have established themselves in the market. If we are put in the position of importing tyres as against making them, I think in the mind of any reasonable man there could be no case against giving a monopoly, reasonably safeguarded, as I am sure it will be, knowing the Minister for Industry and Commerce as I do, in the interest not only of the concessionaire but also in the interests of the general public.

I was very much impressed with the horror displayed by Senator Sir John Keane at the idea of a monopoly. I look upon Senator Sir John Keane as a deeply-read man. There is no one in this House could tell us more about monopolies in this country, going back not alone for years but for centuries. Monopolies have been the curse, the ruination of Ireland for the past three or four hundred years. The monopolists came from the other side in the first instance and grabbed the land of this country. I am sure if Senator Sir John Keane were alive in those days he would have held up his hands in the same kind of horror at the monopolists; he would have adopted, I am sure, the same attitude towards them as he did to-day when he talked of the monopoly that is to be created in Cork. It was the monopoly in every branch that helped to ruin this country. In the first instance we had the land monopolists, the monopolists of 150 years ago or less who drove the unfortunate people out of this country. We had the great monopolists who cleared the lands of Meath, the plains of Boyle; we had the people who were responsible for the Pollock clearances away on the borders of Roscommon; we had the people who made a monopoly of cattle-ranching and who drove the unfortunate people out of their little holdings into lands beyond the seas.

I am in thorough agreement with Senator Sir John Keane against monopolies. Monopolies destroyed the milling trade of this country and you can see the ruins of the mills silhouetted along the banks of our canals and rivers. All these places at one time were busy hives of industry. What of the monopolies that were created in this city where I was born? What of the monopoly in the brewery industry? In recent times there has been much caterwauling about a certain industry leaving this city. In my humble judgment it was one of the greatest curses ever created in this city—I refer to Guinness'. I remember in my young days there were six or seven or ten breweries in this city, but the monopolist has driven them all out of business. We have the monopolists in the bakery trade. We have three or four large combines that can now rule the price of bread for the rich and for the poor. In my young days there were many little bakeries supplying good bread to the residents of the city. I could go on enumerating the many industries that have been destroyed in this city by the monopolists.

When Senator Dowdall referred to the pneumatic tyre it brought back memories to me and, if I might mention a personal matter, I remember that the Minister's father and I were the first to ride pneumatic tyres in this part of the country. When a little tyre industry was started in Westland Row there was the prospect of the creation of a good industry, but the monopolists, of which Senator Sir John Keane has such a horror, came from the other side of the water, and with their envious eyes, and with the help of the goody-goody people in Merrion Square, who objected to its remaining there, that industry was destroyed. I would like to know if the scheme propounded by the Minister, who is carrying out the policy on which the Government came into office, and with which I am in thorough agreement, is monopoly. In my opinion, it is not. It is but the re-creation of an industry which monopolists took from this country. Although I would be better pleased if the industry was reestablished in the cradle of its birth, instead of in Cork, at the same time, I am in agreement with the Minister, who is doing a good day's work for Ireland, by being able to restore the making of Dunlop tyres here.

No doubt when the Minister replies he will tell us the great benefits that are going to accrue not only to Cork but to the Free State, generally, because of this monopoly. I do not suppose anyone in this House will disagree with Senator O'Neill when he said that monopolies are things that are looked upon with great disfavour. I do not think that even the Minister would attempt to establish a monopoly of this kind here unless there were great benefits coming to the Free State. No doubt the Minister will tell us what they are. I think Senator Crosbie was wrong when he said that this industry was going to confer such benefits as he described by manufacturing here. As far as the sources of this manufacture are concerned, even with all our productive qualities, I do not think we are ever likely to grow cotton or rubber in the Free State, or that agriculture will get any benefit. As to the machinery, of which Senator Crosbie thinks such a good deal, I do not believe any of it will be made in the Free State. I have no doubt the British will thank us very much for the order for the machinery which will be brought over by the Dunlop Company. When we know that, we know that Senator Sir John Keane was perfectly right in saying that when you establish a monopoly of this kind, it is necessary to take tremendous precautions and have examination in order to see that the public are not injured. We are not going to manufacture the machinery, we are not going to grow the raw materials, but we are destroying all the benefits which the public get from competition. Everyone knows that.

What are we going to get out of it? We are going to get some building done. We saw Gallaher's factory put up and worked for a short time, but it is lying there now. Undoubtedly there will be some building done, and there will be a certain amount of hands employed, mainly labouring hands in the factory, which will probably benefit County Cork. But what amount of labour will be required with first class machinery to produce all the tyres required in the Free State? It is quite evident that will not be economic production. There is no doubt whatever about that. I am quite certain the Minister would not have given a monopoly unless he was forced to do so, as it was the only way he could get this firm to come in and establish a factory here. It looks to me as if all the benefit we are going to get out of this monopoly is the amount of labour that will be employed in the factory in Cork. What is that to balance against the iniquity of establishing a monopoly and putting out of business all the people who are at present engaged in the sale of the different competitive tyres? As against the benefits, you have the number of respectable citizens of the Free State, who travel through the country selling the different tyres, whose business will disappear with a monopoly. In their stead you will have one individual selling tyres, all the others who sold the competitive tyres having been wiped out. I suppose the Minister will tell us how that problem is going to be dealt with, and how the Free State is going to benefit. As an ordinary citizen I cannot see what benefit the Free State is going to get that will repay it for what I am perfectly certain are evident disadvantages.

I should like to ask Senator Jameson how it is that Coventry has carried on, although rubber or cotton is not grown there.

I am very glad Senator Sir John Keane put down this motion, because it gives me an opportunity of correcting a number of misstatements which have appeared in the Press concerning the project of the establishment of a rubber tyre factory at Cork, misstatements which have obviously affected some Senators, and which were apparently in part responsible for the motion itself. In the first place, I should like to make it clear that this development, to use the words of Senator Sir John Keane, did not come out of the blue, in so far as persons concerned with the distribution of rubber tyres in this country are concerned. The idea of establishing a rubber tyre industry here has been in the mind of the Government for some time, and practically every firm interested to any extent in this market has either been approached by the Government, or has itself approached the Government on the question of establishing a factory here. Various proposals were put up by different firms.

So far as other firms are concerned they apparently accepted what Senator Sir John Keane stated to be a fact, that the market here was not sufficient to support a factory and they did not put forward any proposals. But every one of these firms knew that the idea of establishing a rubber tyre factory was in the air and if they were interested in putting forward a proposal in that regard they knew their proposal would be considered. I think that if Senator Sir John Keane looks up the files of the newspapers he will find that I myself, in a public speech at the beginning of the year, indicated this industry as one of those which the Government hoped to get established during the year.

The term "monopoly" has been used. I want it to be quite clear that, although I think the Government would be quite justified in creating a legal monopoly in order to promote the establishment of this industry, we are not in fact doing so. It is true that the Dunlop Rubber Company, in so far as there will be a restriction upon the importation of rubber tyres, and in so far as they will be the only manufacturers in the country, will have an effective, if not a legal, monopoly in precisely the same way as very large number of firms or groups of firms in this country at present have effective, if not legal, monopolies. I do not know that our experience as to the manner in which that situation has worked has been so unfavourable as Senator Sir John Keane or Senator Jameson would suggest. There is a large firm of biscuit manufacturers here in the City of Dublin which is in precisely the same position, which in this market enjoys the benefit of a protective tariff and which is the only manufacturer. I do not know that our experience of the manner in which that firm has utilised the situation is such that we should prevent the establishment of a new, important industry in this country in consequence of it.

That is not the only firm in that situation. There are quite a number of industries in this country which are operated by one firm only. There are also a large number of industries operated by groups of firms, working in harmony with one another, fixing prices by arrangement amongst themselves and, generally, working the market as one group and they are, in practice, in the same position. Although upon occasion we have had to take cognisance of the fact that the situation was not all that it might be, and sometimes take action to remedy the situation, on the whole our experience has been that the dangers which theorists tell us might arise from that situation are not always forthcoming. It is true that we have established a Prices Commission and that that Commission is even at the present time taking serious note of the activities of certain firms which are in the same position. But the powers which have been conferred under that Act upon the Commission and upon the Government will, I think, be quite ample to deal with the situation which they are now investigating.

The Government have made an Order under the Control of Imports Act, which confers upon them the power to regulate the importation of pneumatic tyres in future. For the present, and for some time to come, that power of regulation will be exercised to permit of the importation of the normal quantity of those tyres, and existing firms need not fear any serious dislocation in the market position. Any goods on order or in transit will come in; contracts made by them can be fulfilled, etc. Although I cannot state precisely how long it will take the Dunlop Company to get their factory constructed, equipped, and into production, it is not until that happens that any curtailment of imports will arise. The importation of tyres, therefore, is and will be subject to restriction, and a licence under the Control of Manufactures Act has been issued to the Dunlop Company.

In effect that is the whole situation, except that, because of the situation, we felt it necessary to come to a certain agreement with the firm, and they felt it necessary to come to an agreement with us covering certain points. We on our side agree (1) to afford the Company the protection of the restriction of imports; and (2) to issue it the necessary licence to enable it to undertake manufacture. That licence was available for any reputable company which chose to apply for it. I do not say that it would be available in the future. The policy of the Government in relation to the issue of such licences is well known. Where the requirements of the country for any class of goods are being met satisfactorily by any firm established and operating in the country at the time that application for a licence to manufacture these goods is made, a licence would ordinarily be refused. That applies to all classes of goods at present, and will apply to rubber tyres in future.

The company, in consideration of the issue of that licence, will establish at Cork a factory equipped for the production of about 80 per cent. of our total requirements of pneumatic tyres. The balance of 20 per cent. is made up, in the main, of various odd sizes of tyres, classes of tyres which are not used in large quantity, which it would not be economic to make here, and which will be imported in future without any additional impost. We undertook, also, to facilitate the firm in the equipment of its factory, and to operate the usual condition attaching to a Control of Manufactures Act licence, which requires a firm holding that licence to employ only nationals of Saorstát Eireann, except with the permission of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, so as to permit of their bringing in certain trained key workers during the initial stages; they on their part undertaking to arrange for the training of Saorstát workers both here and at their main factories abroad.

The company have, as I said, agreed to erect a factory, and they have agreed to sell the products of the factory at a price calculated in accordance with a certain formula, which will involve a substantial reduction on the price at which these tyres are now being sold. The reduction, of course, is very largely due to the fact that the duty now paid upon tyres upon importation will not be payable if the tyres are produced here, unless, of course, it should be deemed good policy by the Government at some future time again to seek revenue from tyres by imposing an excise duty, in which case the price of tyres will be increased by the amount of such excise duty. Motor tyres have always been dearer in this country than in Great Britain, mainly because of the existence of that duty, but also because of certain higher charges for distribution and some other causes. A formula has been agreed upon and the position in future will be that, subject to the maintenance of the present relation in respect of costs, with regard to raw materials, labour, distribution, etc., between the company's plant in the Free State and the company's plant in Great Britain, the price at which these tyres will be sold will be not more than 15 per cent. above the corresponding price in Great Britain, as compared with the present position in which they are about 30 per cent. above the corresponding price in Great Britain.

That, in fact, is the whole story. The only reason why this matter has got the prominence it has received is because of the substantial nature of the industry and the fact that there appears to have been some misunderstanding. The Dunlop Rubber Company is not the only company that has come into this country and undertaken the manufacture of new classes of goods in consideration of the issue to them, under the Control of Manufactures Act, of a licence, affording protection to their products. Yet in other cases the same attention does not appear to have been given to the matter just as happened here. We have every reason to be thankful that this development has occurred, and that the firm, undertaking this manufacture, is a firm of the reputation and standing of the Dunlop Company, because that firm has had considerable association with this country, and in that company there is, in fact, invested a very substantial amount of capital owned by Saorstát citizens.

It is assumed that the number of persons to be employed in the manufacture of pneumatic tyres will be between 600 and 700. It is anticipated that the firm will manufacture other classes of goods than tyres in the course of time. We hope that that will be so, and will press the company to do so. Other goods manufactured from rubber are used in considerable quantities here. It is to be hoped that all these will be manufactured by this company so that the number of persons to be employed will be increased considerably. The number of persons to be disemployed, in consequence of this development, will be very small indeed.

Senator Jameson said if we took the trouble to carry out a census of the number of persons engaged in the industry, we would see that the number of persons engaged in the distribution of those tyres was very considerable. There are a number of persons engaged in the retail sale of tyres, but it is of little matter to them whether they sell Dunlop tyres or any other tyres, so long as they get their commission. The number of persons acting as agents for the manufacturers of those tyres, other than those manufactured by the Dunlop company, is not more than 70. That is the maximum number; and it is not to be assumed that the whole of that number will become disemployed. Probably some of them are engaged in the business only in a small way, and as a sideline to their other business, and, probably, they will have to drop that sideline in the future. But that is a situation which has arisen on every occasion that we have decided to extend an existing industry, or to establish a new one. The persons engaged in the distribution of the foreign goods become disemployed, or have to seek some other occupation. But the number of persons engaged in the production of goods here has increased considerably, which is always to our advantage. It always takes a much larger number of people to make goods than to distribute the same quantity of goods from abroad.

Senator Sir John Keane said he was advised that the production of rubber tyres in this country is not an economical proposition. The Senator can put that idea out of his head. A number of factories, which are successfully engaged in the production of rubber tyres elsewhere and which pay substantial dividends at the present time have a total output less than the total output of the Cork factory will be. The number of tyres used here for motor cars is about 150,000 per year. The number of tyres for pedal cycles is, of course, considerably higher; but the market is quite sufficient to make a fairly large size rubber tyre factory an economic proposition, and I think the Senator can be certain that the Dunlop company would go into the business on no other basis. The Senator also asked what is the protection for quality. I mentioned that we had certain understandings as to price, quality for quality, size for size, and so forth, which it will not be hard to give effect to, and which are, in any event, subject to our jurisdiction in so far as we have to be satisfied that the undertaking is being observed.

There is another protection for us in the reputation of the firm, which is one of the largest firms in the motor tyre trade, which is distributing its products all over the world, and which could not afford to damage its reputation for the quality of its products for the sake of whatever small advantage it might obtain in this country by depreciation of their quality. I think that the Senator can be quite at ease in his mind upon that point. It was a matter of concern to the companies that were interested in the position here that their selection by the Government, for the issue of licences to them, under the Control of Manufactures Act, indicated our confidence in the ability of the manufacturers selected and might substantially increase their market in other countries if the people here were satisfied with the manner in which these manufacturers availed of the position created for them.

I agree, also, with what was said by one Senator, that the amount of capital invested in the distribution of rubber tyres in this country is comparatively small. The firms that have been established for that purpose, in the main, consist of the agent for the tyres and certain office equipment. Nothing else was required. I do not think there was any considerable amount of tyres ordinarily stored in this country. They were simply imported as the orders were received. The loss of revenue will be nothing as substantial as Senator Sir John Keane seemed to indicate. The duty upon tyres was 22 2-9 per cent. until February this year, when it was increased to 33?. At the rate of 33?, which was not intended to be a permanent duty, the total revenue from the classes of tyres to be manufactured here would be £48,000. I do not know that it is fair to take that figure, because the ordinary revenue should be calculated at the rate of two-thirds of that if the duty, which is purely a revenue duty, had been maintained at the rate it existed at from the establishment of the Free State.

I do not know that any other points were raised. I reiterate that the position is that we have protected the market by the restriction of imports and issued a licence to one firm to manufacture. We have undertaken to facilitate the Dunlop Company in the matter of the equipment of its factory, and to maintain the protection afforded to it, in consideration of their establishing a factory here, for a period of fifteen years, in so far as it is in our power to do so. They, on their side, have undertaken to construct a factory capable of producing about 80 per cent. of our requirements, and to distribute their products here at prices which, subject to maintenance of the relative costs and Government policy in respect to excise duties, will not exceed 15 per cent. of the corresponding goods in Great Britain, representing a considerable reduction on the price at which these goods are now available here.

I should like to know whether that difference between 15 per cent. and 30 per cent. is irrespective of any additional charges due to import or excise duties as the case may be?

No. I said that the 15 per cent. will operate on the basis of the maintenance of the present relative costs. If the costs of production here are increased for any reason, such as the imposition of excise duties, then the 15 per cent. would be increased. If, on the other hand, the costs are reduced, as may happen, say, following the introduction of an excise duty in Great Britain, then the 15 per cent. will be reduced.

May I take it that the present 30 per cent. extra is on the basis of the 22 2-9 tariff?

No, it is now 33? per cent.

The Minister suggested that there had been about 30 per cent. more than in England.

That is only since the tariff was raised to 33? per cent. Before that the amount of the tariff was only 22 2-9 per cent.

I understood that the Minister said that the tyres were dearer partly owing to that and partly owing to other circumstances.

The 22 2-9 tariff is chargeable upon the declared value of the tyres on importation—not the price at which they are sold to the consumer, and consequently the increase in price would not be 22 2-9. The price here exceeded the English price by something less than that— portion due to the duty and portion due to the extra costs arising here. The amount of the duty payable remains the same, and the prices of all tyres were increased at the same time. Now, the total amount by which the prices of their tyres will exceed the prices of similar tyres sold in Great Britain, allowing for all the higher costs which they anticipate may arise here, will be 15 per cent., unless and until the relation between the costs is upset by some such action as the imposition of an excise duty, in which case the price of the tyres will have to be increased by the amount of the extra charge.

The position is then that the State will lose 33? per cent. of the actual cost, which it is getting in the way of duty, and of that amount 15 per cent. will be additional charges to the manufacturers here, and the other 15 per cent. will go to the consumer, who will get it that much cheaper?

I have to thank the Minister for his statement, but I do not suppose that he would expect me to say that my apprehensions have been allayed entirely by his statement. They are not. These things can be dealt with very nicely in the abstract and in general terms, but it is not until they actually come into being that we really know what we are in for. I cannot agree that biscuits are at all comparable with tyres. There are a lot of substitutes for biscuits, but I know of nothing that will suit the wheel of a motor car except a tyre. While biscuits may be inordinately required by some people, there are substitutes which would supply everything necessary for internal personal nourishment.

I think it is undesirable that these agreements should be arranged in private between the Government and these firms, that there should be no preliminary inquiry, and that we should not know what really in essence is involved. There are three parties to all these agreements. There is the Government and the particular firm concerned; but there is also the public. All along I have been complaining about the Minister's policy in that respect. The consumer is ignored and does not receive a fair amount of consideration. Whatever consideration is to be given is given to capital and labour, but the consumer is left to take his chance. He is the under dog. The Minister did not attempt to deal with the question of quality except to say that the reputation of the firm would be a sufficient guarantee. I hold that the only real test of quality is to be able to try an alternative make of tyre against a particular firm's make of tyre, and that will be no longer possible under this arrangement. We have got to take it on the assurance of the firm's reputation that the article they will be giving us is the same as before. We will have no means of testing that. It is only human nature for people to want to be at liberty to try alternative makes of an article, and if they feel that they are tied up they are always suspicious. I can quite understand that Senators Crosbie and Dowdall could not act differently from the way they did. They have got to face their supporters and friends, and I should not like to be in their shoes if they supported me in this. I am not prepared to divide the House on this motion, even though what the Minister said will not tend to make us any more happy. Accordingly, with the leave of the House, I shall withdraw my motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
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