I have given permission to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health to attend and be heard during the different stages of the Hospitals Bill.
Hospitals Bill, 1938—Second Stage.
Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
In some areas voluntary hospitals have been established which fulfil the functions of local authority hospitals in dealing with certain classes of patients, such as maternity and infectious disease cases. Several of these hospitals have in recent years been unable to meet the demands on their bed accommodation. They have had to be replaced by new institutions or have had to be substantially enlarged. These new institutions will serve a wider area and most of the patients will be sent by the local authority of the area covered by the institutions. The governing body of the hospitals have found it desirable to give representation to the local authorities in the administration of these new institutions. In such cases legislation is necessary to authorise the constitution of a joint board containing representatives of the governing body of the existing hospital and the local authority concerned and to vest the requisite power in the new board for the administration of the hospital. The Cork Fever Hospital Acts, 1935 and 1938 and the Dublin Fever Hospital Act of 1936 have been already passed to implement the agreement entered into with the local authorities by the voluntary associations for the establishment of joint boards to administer the fever hospitals in Cork and Dublin, respectively. There are at least two similar cases which now fall to be dealt with in respect of voluntary and maternity hospitals in Cork and Limerick county boroughs. The aim of the Bill is to obviate the necessity for passing a separate Act in respect of each such proposal arising in future.
The Bill empowers the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, at the request of the governing body of a voluntary hospital, to make an order constituting a joint board comprising representatives of the governing body and the local authority or local authorities, as the case may be, and to grant that board the necessary powers for improving the existing hospital, or providing a new hospital and for administering the institution. The term "voluntary hospital" includes any institution providing for the prevention and treatment of any disease, injury or deformity in human beings or for giving medical, surgical or dental treatment in such cases or affording asylum to blind, deaf, dumb or mentally defective persons or to expectant mothers, or mothers of children under the age of five years and such children, provided that the governing body of the hospital is not a Department of State, a local authority or a committee of a local authority. The provisions of the Bill can only be put into operation by a voluntary act of the governing body of an institution of that class, who may apply to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health for an Establishment Order in relation to their hospitals. Arrangements are included for due notice being given to each member of the governing body of the proposal to make application for the Establishment Order and notice of the making of such application must be published in the Press for at least two successive weeks in three newspapers circulating in the area in which the hospital is situated.
An objection may be lodged by any person with the Minister to the making of an Establishment Order. If the Minister decides to make an order, he must first submit a draft thereof to the governing body of the voluntary hospital and to the local authority or the local authorities concerned, and he is not empowered to make an order until agreement with these bodies has been reached in regard to its provisions. The Establishment Order when made shall provide for the dissolution of the existing governing body of the voluntary hospital and the establishment of a new board which shall be wholly or partly representative of one or more local authorities and shall be constituted as a body corporate with the usual powers. The property, debts, duties and liabilities of the existing governing body shall be transferred to the new board and arrangements may be made for the transfer to the board of the officers and servants of the existing institutions with superannuation or compensation rights for loss of office.
All other necessary powers for the improvement and administration of the existing hospital, or the proposed new institution, may be granted to the board by such order. An Establishment Order, when made, shall be deposited for public inspection, and notice thereof shall be published. The order shall also be laid before each House of the Oireachtas, and may be annulled by a resolution passed by either House within a specified period. If no such resolution is passed, any person objecting to the order may apply within the prescribed period to the High Court for annulment of the order. If the Establishment Order has not been annulled, in pursuance of the above-mentioned procedure, the Minister may confirm the order which shall then have the force of law. Provision is made for the amendment of the order, from time to time, if necessary, but such amendment can only be effected at the instance of the governing body of the institution concerned. The same procedure will apply in respect of that amendment as is prescribed in the case of the original Establishment Order. Power is taken to amend the Cork Fever Hospital Acts, 1935 and 1938, and the Dublin Fever Hospital Act, 1936, as if these Acts were Establishment Orders. The object of the Bill, as already mentioned, is to facilitate the carrying out of agreements entered into between governing bodies of voluntary hospitals and local authorities. It is calculated to prove of the highest value, and will obviate the unnecessary duplication of legislation in future.
On the face of the statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary as to the objects of the Bill, it would appear to be a simple, desirable and, perhaps, a useful measure to avoid the necessity of coming to the Oireachtas in dealing with hospitals of perhaps relatively small importance, and to avoid the necessity for legislation such as had to be promoted in recent years in respect of the two fever hospitals of Dublin and Cork to which the Parliamentary Secretary referred. Nevertheless, the Bill is of a peculiar class which, I think, requires special attention—almost jealous attention— from each House of the Oireachtas, because it transfers to the Minister in his capacity as Minister a power which previously has had to be exercised through the Oireachtas and only through the Oireachtas. This House should jealously study every clause of a Bill of that class, no matter how trivial its content may appear to be. The House should ask itself not only whether this Bill is produced with what might be regarded from the point of view of some Senators as a mischievous intention—I make no such suggestion as that in regard to the Bill—but whether it might not be capable of misapplication when it becomes a statute.
That will not depend on guarantees or assurances from the Parliamentary Secretary such as he gave on some points in the other House. It will depend on the Bill itself and the powers conveyed to the Minister for Local Government in the Bill—not personally to the present Minister in whose intentions we may have the highest faith but to all those of his successors who may have different views from those in respect of which assurances or guarantees have been given and who will not be bound by such guarantees, who may, if they think fit, apply the Bill in any direction which is in accordance with its provisions. I make no apology for asking the attention of the Seanad to points in this Bill which require elucidation and to others which require considerable caution before acceptance. The Parliamentary Secretary has referred to two hospitals in respect of which it was necessary to promote legislation in recent years. He said there were other hospitals in a similar position and I think he mentioned one—the Maternity Hospital, Cork.
That is so.
I think that we should ask the Parliamentary Secretary for a little more information as to the other hospitals he has in mind to which this Bill may possibly apply in the near future. He would hardly think it necessary to ask the Oireachtas to pass a general measure to deal with the single case of the Maternity Hospital in Cork. We have a right to ask for further information as to what other hospitals the Minister may be contemplating applying the provisions of this Bill. In the other House, the Parliamentary Secretary said there were certain hospitals to which this Bill would be applicable. He said (Nov. 16, 1938, col. 757):
"There are now other instances in which governing bodies of voluntary hospitals have agreed to transfer their functions to joint boards on which local authorities will have representation."
In another debate on 30th November (col. 1243), he said:
"The Bill has been put before the House on Second Reading solely for the purpose of enabling voluntary hospitals who wish to merge their interests or pool their resources with the local authority. If, as has been indicated to us, there are some such voluntary hospital authorities in existence at the present time the necessary machinery will be provided in this Bill to enable them to seek the establishment order mentioned."
The House is entitled to know what voluntary hospitals were indicated to the Minister as desiring to make use of the special machinery which this Bill is providing. Our apprehension as to the application of the Bill and the purposes to which it may be applied might be considerably relieved by knowing what is in the mind of the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary. At the same time such information would not limit us as to the possible application of the Bill in future years in different hands.
I should like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary what hospitals have agreed to such action at the moment. Reading the Bill one finds that almost every voluntary hospital in the country might apply to be established and, if the Minister thought fit, might be established. The Parliamentary Secretary has stated that it is not the intention of the Minister when this Bill becomes law to put any financial or other pressure on any hospital to induce it to seek such establishment. These are his words (November 30, 1938, col. 1243):—
"I assure the Deputy and the House that it is not the intention of the Minister or the Department to exercise any pressure, departmentally or otherwise, on the committee of a voluntary hospital to force them to merge their interests with some other body."
I accept that statement, but it is not easy to see how such pressure can be non-existent so long as control of the Sweepstake Fund lies absolutely in the hands of the Minister, as it does at present. Almost every voluntary hospital—there are a few exceptions— keeps its doors open by means of subsidies from the Sweepstake Fund which the voluntary hospitals themselves, by permission of the Oireachtas, established eight or nine years ago, the control of which is now entirely in the hands of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health. The Minister may not put any pressure, financial or otherwise, on a hospital, but the mere fact that he has the funds entirely under his control makes it inevitable that pressure will be felt even when it is not exercised. The Parliamentary Secretary was asked to give a further undertaking that no invitation would be issued to a voluntary hospital to apply for establishment and he was unable to give that undertaking for reasons which he stated. So long as the voluntary hospital depends for its existence on funds which the Minister controls, whether the Minister cares to exercise pressure or not, that pressure is there. The Minister may not flourish the big stick but, nevertheless, he has it behind his back all the time. We know that the initial step with regard to the application for orders under this Bill depends on voluntary action by the hospitals. I must use the word "voluntary" in inverted commas because the action of the hospitals cannot be truly voluntary so long as control of the funds is in the hands of the Minister.
Certain safeguards in the Bill have been recounted to us by the Parliamentary Secretary. I suggest that these safeguards are, in fact, nugatory, though looking well on paper. There is this question of the voluntary action of the hospital in starting the machinery for an Establishment Order, but as I have pointed out the hospital in that matter is unlikely to be in a position to act quite voluntarily. The order has to come before both Houses of the Oireachtas and either House may disallow it. All of us know that that machinery in respect of various orders and regulations is almost impracticable. It is almost impossible to carry a resolution in either House annulling an order issued by a Minister and, in fact, it is difficult even to have the matter brought before the House. Parliamentary time rarely permits of such a motion being moved within the period fixed by law in such a case.
That provision in this Bill and in other Bills is useful. It may permit, though it often fails to permit, public discussion of an order, but as a check on action by the Department it is ineffective. There is an appeal to the High Court, but as I understand the Bill the appeal to the High Court is purely on the legal aspects of the matter and not on the merits. The High Court may annul the order if it is of opinion that such order contravenes or is not authorised by or is not made in accordance with the Act. Again, it may annul part of the order if part of it is not authorised or made in accordance with the Act. These are the only two matters which the High Court can deal with and they are purely legal matters—whether the Minister has proceeded in accordance with the provisions of the Act or not. None of these apparent safeguards seems to me to be a real safeguard of the continued existence of a voluntary hospital which depends on moneys under the Minister's control—not public moneys but moneys which belong to the hospitals, moneys collected by the activities of the voluntary hospitals which the Oireachtas has given into the control of the Minister.
Some points in the Bill seem to me to be still rather obscure. I am not sure in what relation an established hospital would be under an order under this Bill, either to the local authority or to the Minister. In the Schedule I notice that there are matters in respect of which provision may be made in an Establishment Order and some of these give a certain amount of control to the Minister. Item 13 in the Schedule provides that provision may be made in an Establishment Order for the account to be kept by the board, including the giving of power to the Minister to regulate such accounts. Item 17 makes similar provision in respect of the inspection of institutions maintained by the board by officers of the Minister and officers of local authorities. Item 18 deals with the furnishing by the board of information to the Minister, local authorities, officers of the Minister and officers of local authorities. Item 20 refers to the making of regulations by the Minister in relation to the board and the institutions maintained by the board. I do not know how far these various matters to be laid down in the order will put such an established hospital in the same relation to the Minister and to the local authority as, let us say, one of the county hospitals at present where practically the whole management of the hospital is under the supervision and control of the Minister. Are these established hospitals which at present are conducted as voluntary establishments to come entirely under the control of the Minister? Are they to become official institutions instead of voluntary institutions? This is hardly the occasion to argue the relative merits of voluntary work in hospital management as compared with that of representatives of local authorities under the supervision of the Minister.
I simply say this, and I think it is beyond question that there is greater freedom of initiative, and less delay, because of the delays that are necessary when a higher authority has to be consulted, and more rapid efficiency in the case of hospitals under voluntary control than in hospitals primarily under a rating authority, and secondly under the Minister. I am not going to pursue that side of the question, as it might entail a long discussion, but it is a matter of considerable importance to those interested in the future hospital system in this country. The Minister has, on many occasions, expressed great appreciation of what was done by voluntary efforts in regard to hospital management and other public services, and I can hardly believe that he sees the danger contained in this Bill, of the possibility of transferring a number of institutions, hitherto established, and maintained until recently, by voluntary work, and of transferring them to a public authority. I would welcome from the Parliamentary Secretary some information by way of illustration as to what this Bill is going to do, by mentioning the names of some hospitals which have indicated that they would like to make use of such a machine. We would be better able to judge what the Bill can do in cases where the Parliamentary Secretary thinks it is necessary, but we must not overlook what it may do in other cases that have not come into his mind so far. We are not legislating for this year or for next year. We are legislating for a considerable number of years, and we should know what we have in mind, in taking any action which will govern an important part of our social system for many years, and particularly we should exercise great caution in transferring from the Oireachtas powers it possessed up to the present, and putting in the hands of the Minister powers which he never possessed before, without, in fact, any adequate check on his actions.
I notice that the Title of the Bill says that it is "an Act to enable the Minister to make certain orders in relation to the management and financing of certain hospitals." I suggest that that is not an accurate Title. I would prefer the word "uncertain" there. Although the Minister says that he has it in mind that this Bill will only apply to certain hospitals who want it, the powers are there to apply it to all hospitals. For that reason I do not think we could deal adequately or honestly with this measure without considering the whole fact of hospital management. Any of us who know the present position in relation to hospital management under ministerial control must admit that. The Minister says the Bill will only apply to hospitals that ask for it, and that it cannot be forced on any hospital, but we must all be aware that the Minister's power is such that he can practically force anything on the hospitals.
With very few exceptions hospitals depend on the Minister's sanction to meet deficiencies in their working. The Minister has control of the funds provided by the Sweepstakes for the Hospital Trustees and, if so minded, he can make such queries and place such conditions on the hospitals that he can bring them to heel. Everyone knows that the power of the purse is such that he can do that. There is very considerable apprehension amongst hospitals at the increasing control being exercised by the Minister, and this control, if my information is correct, and judging from what we read in the newspapers, in which there are many statements on the matter, tends towards in efficiency. It is causing very considerable delay in the way of correspondence, lack of prompt decisions and executive action.
As the House knows from recollection, it is at least three years since the Hospitals Commission published its report advising certain specific reforms in connection with the Dublin hospitals. I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary will contradict me when I say that very little has actually been done. There has been, no doubt, a great deal of correspondence initiated, but very little has actually been done. I believe at this moment there is in preparation a Bill for carrying out a very considerable portion of these recommendations and reforms in regard to the amalgamation of three important hospitals, but there is also the position of the medical profession, and the lay management, amongst which there is very considerable uneasiness at the centralisation, and the multiplicity of authority on this whole question of hospital management which, if one believes what one hears, is having very serious reactions on efficiency. I do not want to pursue the matter except as a background to this measure. There are at least four parties concerned in the control of hospitals now. There is the board of management of the hospitals, the hospital commissioners, who are nominal advisers to the Minister; the Minister's own Departmental advisers, and the Minister himself, and when it comes to legislation there is the Oireachtas. All that is cluttering up administration, and I seriously suggest makes for inefficiency. With that background, I think it is very serious to see the Minister taking unrestricted powers to impose establishment orders on hospitals. In fact, through his financial control over the hospitals, if he wishes to operate it, they have no alternative but to apply for establishment. That is the way we have to read the measure. I agree that we have an assurance from the Parliamentary Secretary that there is no such intention, but I feel that the hospitals should be safeguarded in some way, so that the operation of this measure is restricted to certain hospitals that want it. If other hospitals want it, there should be some Parliamentary machinery whereby an order is made or a resolution passed—I am not concerned how it is done—stating the additional hospitals to which it is to apply.
There are two or three other matters in connection with the background on which I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to inform the House. Has the public any knowledge as to how all the funds in the hands of the Hospital Trustees are spent? Do they publish any accounts? I am informed they do not. No doubt there are accounts, because they are a very competent body, but they are not published. I feel that the hospital position has long since passed from the voluntary method, and that as the Hospital Trustees are a semi-public institution the public should know where the money in their hands is expended. It is all expended on an order from the Minister, and it is very little different from other public money. Assuming there are such accounts, I ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he does not feel the time has arrived when they should be available, because there is a feeling about the expenditure on the Dublin hospitals and on hospitals under local authorities. We know that there is a great deal of congestion, and considerable lack of service in the case of the Dublin hospitals, owing to the delay in carrying out the reports of the Hospital Commission, whereas you have only to travel about the country to see these new local hospitals almost everywhere. If my information is correct these hospitals are adequately equipped materially, but very much understaffed.
I cannot give names, but I think it my duty to tell the House what I was told on the very best authority the other day with regard to service in local hospitals. A certain young medical doctor on the staff of a local hospital came up to one of the heads of a teaching hospital of considerable repute to borrow a book dealing with a certain very critical operation. The older man when consulted asked the doctor why he wanted the book, and was told: "I have got to do an operation of this kind in the local hospital." When he asked if he realised that it was a very serious operation, and if he should do it, the doctor answered: "Yes, I must. The last time I had a case like this I sent it to Dublin and I got hauled over the coals for doing so. I was asked what was the use of having the local hospital if such work could not be done there." That, I am told, is not an unique case. After all, those who know the country realise that locally elected laymen, unable to distinguish between the degrees of danger in an operation, might naturally say, if they were on the board of the local hospital, that as a lot of money had been spent on up-to-date equipment they expected that the operations would be carried out locally. I am quite satisfied that the case I have mentioned is true. It was told to me on the unimpeachable authority of one of the parties concerned. The Parliamentary Secretary knows that it is typical of other cases, and that it is the cause of considerable anxiety. For these reasons I feel, like Senator Rowlette, that there are considerable dangers implicit in this measure, and we should not rest content with the assurances in the Bill, that the Minister is only going to apply, in certain cases where any pressure is wanted, legislation of this kind.
The principal grounds of objection or, perhaps I should say, of uneasiness in relation to this Bill are the possible powers which the Minister will hold because of his control of Hospitals Trust Funds. I did not read the debate in the Dáil, but I did read the introductory speech of the Parliamentary Secretary in which he indicated that it was in connection with the administration of these funds that this question arose. That was in his first speech. Now, I was wondering whether or not a clause could not be put in dealing with the case of a hospital that might refuse these funds. I know that I am not putting the point as well as it could be put, but I suggest that if some clause were to be inserted it would be a clear indication of the actual intention in the Bill and might do away with some of the uneasiness which exists. I was hoping that at some stage of this Bill the Parliamentary Secretary would be willing to indicate where it fits in with the whole question of hospitals here or with the whole scheme, if there is a scheme, or whether there is any relation at all to it. I think we have reached the stage where a detailed and full statement from some responsible Minister, with regard to hospitals and the intentions of the Government in that connection, would be exceedingly useful.
There have been many rumours. Of course, my experience is that, when you get rumours of this kind, they generally turn out to be false to a very large extent, although there may be some truth in them. For instance, you hear that some districts are getting preference; that money is being spent on hospitals in certain districts and that the work is being done as quickly as possible. Then, you hear that, in other quarters, schemes are being held up, and that these districts are not being treated fairly. We all know that there has been an enormous number of applications. On the other hand, however, we feel that if the Government had granted even a quarter of the number of applications received, they would have been extremely foolish to do so unless they had some assurance that the particular scheme proposed could have been fitted in as part and parcel of the whole scheme. I am not a medical man, nor do I pretend to have any medical knowledge, but, speaking from the point of view of a layman, it does seem to me to be sensible that there should be very close co-operation in connection with the whole hospitals scheme whereby the rarer and more peculiar diseases could be treated at one particular centre, and it seems to me to be doubtful whether the same amount of money should be spent in every hospital all over the country, so long as we know that the needs of the country as a whole are being served adequately.
I admit, Sir, that it is possible that it is outside the scope of this Bill, but I do suggest that, whether at the moment or at some early date, it would be very useful if the Parliamentary Secretary could see his way to make a statement dealing with a good many of these discontented rumours which are very undesirable, particularly when they deal with such vital matters as that of public health. I think that a statement of that kind would do good. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary could tell us what are the reasons for the delay or holding up of the money—whether it is because of the requirements of the general scheme, or whether some schemes for the building of hospitals have been put through quickly while other schemes are held up. These rumours, undoubtedly, exist, and I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary could tell us something in connection with this Bill which might serve to allay that feeling of uneasiness. If it is not feasible for him to deal with it now, perhaps he might deal with the matter on the final stages of the Bill.
Having listened very attentively to a few very interesting speeches that have been delivered on this Bill, I have not very much to say in reply. Senator Rowlette criticised the Bill in some detail, and he was good enough to answer himself by quoting the replies I gave, in the course of the debate in the Dáil, on most of the points he has raised. Might I point out, if it is necessary— it may be necessary for some members of this House—that this is merely an enabling measure. I do not want to suggest that the Senators who ask the House to believe that they have genuine fears as to the purposes to which this Bill, when it becomes an Act, may be applied, are not genuine in their fears, but I find it hard to believe that they have any real anxiety. Senator Rowlette tells the House that very dangerous powers are being taken in this Bill. Well, I suppose, if we examine any Bill that is passed through this House or the other House, or many of the Bills that are passed through this House or the other House, we shall probably discover that in practically every Bill powers are taken which, if abused, may have very many undesirable consequences. It must be conceded, however, that if powers are taken at all, they must be taken on the ground of the greatest good of the greatest number, even though the result of the taking of such powers in the legislation concerned may mean that somebody may be hurt. I must say that I did not anticipate the possibility that, in connection with an innocent measure such as this, there would be a general debate on the whole hospital situation in this country, past, present and future.
The future would be sufficient.
Well, I do not think we could completely close our eyes to the past and the present if we are to have a debate on the subject at all. The point has been made here that, while nobody would attribute for a moment any possibility, or the very thought, of the misapplication of the powers sought in this Bill by the present Administration, some future Minister might come along and, being presented with these powers, cut and dried, might apply them to purposes such as the present Minister or the present Government never intended or that this House never intended.
Now, again, without in any way intending to be offensive, let me say that that appears to me to be an utterly childish argument. If and when such a Ministry comes into being in this country, let it be—well, perhaps we had better not try to anticipate what particular brand of Government it might be—but at any rate let us suppose we have a Minister for Local Government and Public Health in the future who would be prepared to abuse the powers that are being given in this Bill or that are sought for in this Bill. Let us, for the sake of argument, picture the possibility of such a person taking complete control of the hospitals system in this country and completely eliminating voluntary control. Does any sane man think that such a Minister, with a Government behind him backing such a policy, would hesitate to seek and obtain any statutory powers he may require, even if he were to wait for any statutory power at all? I do not think that the fact that statutory powers are there to enable a Minister to do certain things, if he is so disposed, would endanger the position any more than it is endangered at the present moment. If he has not the statutory powers to implement his particular policy, he would not be a Minister, or at least he would not remain a Minister very long, if he did not take the powers to administer his policy, whatever that policy might be.
It is suggested, or it has been suggested, that because of the fact that the Minister for Local Government and Public Health has control of Hospitals Trust Funds, undue pressure might be exercised of a financial nature on a recalcitrant and voluntary institution. Again, there is no denying that such a possibility can be contemplated; but when one comes to try to visualise the possibilities in that regard, one ought to remember that a Minister has powers of financial pressure over many corporations, local authorities and public bodies at the present time, and I think it has scarcely ever been known that the Minister has exercised that power. If a local authority refuses to cooperate with the Minister in carrying out his policy, he can withhold road grants, public health grants, and grants to mental hospitals and similar institutions. In that way, financial pressure could be exercised, in order to bring such bodies, as some Senator expressed it—I think it was Senator Sir John Keane—to heel.
Oh! Is it not done?
It can be done.
Senator Baxter does not agree. Well, I am not surprised at that, although I suppose Senator Baxter is the nearest neighbour I have, so far as this House is concerned. However, he and I never agreed, and I do not suppose we will anyhow. Senator Sir John Keane tells us that Ministerial control tends towards inefficiency. I should like to challenge that. If we were to follow that to its logical conclusion, I think we should abolish Ministerial control altogether. If it tends towards inefficiency in one direction, the logical conclusion should be that it tends towards inefficiency in all other directions. Complaint has also been made that the Minister has unrestricted powers to exercise his will in this particular regard, and the point has actually been made that these unrestricted powers can be exercised by a majority of our democratic institutions of government. That seems to me to be a difficult line of argument to follow. The order made in this Bill, when and if the Bill becomes an Act. can be annulled by either House of the Oireachtas. Some of the Senators here seem to foresee dangers in that— dangers in that the majority of this House or the majority of the Dáil can render effective the majority will of the people. I see no danger in that. I think that is the essence of democracy, and the very safeguard that we have put in for the purpose of ensuring that any such orders that are made under the terms of this Bill, when it becomes an Act, will have the backing of a majority of the people's representatives behind it, seems to me to be the most democratic machinery that we can set up.
I do not know that there are any other points that have been raised with which I should deal. Coming back to the note I struck in opening, I do not believe that the Senators who spoke on this Bill have any genuine fears. I hope they have not, but if they have any such genuine fears as to the purposes to which this Bill might be applied, I can only say that I do believe such fears to be utterly groundless.
Would the Parliamentary Secretary indicate any institutions which have asked for this Bill?
The committees of management of the maternity hospitals in Cork and Limerick. In addition, we have already dealt with the two fever hospitals in Dublin and Cork. If we had to come forward now with separate legislation for the Cork maternity hospital, and with a further Bill for the Limerick maternity hospital, that would be four separate pieces of legislation. There are no further applications under consideration, but seeing that, within a comparatively short space of time, we have had to deal with four institutions, there is the possibility that other institutions might in future seek an Establishment Order if the necessary statutory machinery were to hand.
Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 15th March.