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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Mar 1939

Vol. 22 No. 13

Housing (Amendment) Bill, 1939—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill is to extend the time for the completion of houses for which grants may be made to private persons and public utility societies under the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Acts, 1932 to 1937, and to extend the rating provisions of Section 10 (1) (b) of the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1932, to houses in urban areas affected by grants under the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) (Amendment) (No. 2) Act, 1936.

I think it may be helpful to the Seanad if I place before the House somewhat detailed particulars concerning the moneys made available to private persons and public utility societies since the passing of the Act of 1932, together with particulars of the housing operations carried out by such agencies with the aid of grants.

The Housing Act of 1932 provided a sum of £700,000 for the making of grants to private persons and public utility societies towards the erection and reconstruction of houses within a period ending 31st March, 1935. Before that date had arrived it became clear that the sum was inadequate and that the demands for such grants were far from being met. It was decided to provide further moneys, and an additional £700,000 was provided under the Housing Act of 1934. The date of completion was extended to the 31st March, 1937, but towards the end of 1935 it was again clear that additional moneys would have to be provided. By an Act passed on the 3rd April, 1936, and another Act passed on the 3rd July of the same year the sum originally provided for these grants was raised to £2,800,000, ultimately increased to £3,500,000 by the Housing and Labourers Act passed in December, 1937. It will thus be seen that over each of the five separate Housing Acts from 1932 to the present date the sum of £700,000 has been provided for the allocation of grants to private persons and public utility societies.

It may not be inappropriate to outline the progress over the period from 1932 to, say, the 31st May, 1936, and from 1932 to the 1st of last month.

Taking the period 1932 to the 31st May, 1936, a sum of £2,100,000 had been provided under three Housing Acts (1932, 1934, and April, 1936). On that date the sum allocated was £2,007,702 in respect of over 38,000 houses, of which 22,000 houses were to be erected and 16,000 reconstructed.

The number of houses actually provided and the number of houses reconstructed as at the 31st May, 1936, were as follows:—

New houses erected in urban areas

6,160

New houses erected in rural areas

7,651

Total new houses

13,811

No. of houses reconstructed

5,883

Total number of new and reconstructed houses

19,694

In terms of money allocated 32 per cent. was allocated to reconstruction, 24 per cent. to the erection of new houses in urban areas and 44 per cent. to the erection of new houses in rural areas.

On the other hand, taking the entire period from 1932 to the 1st ultimo the total sum made available for allocation was, as already stated, £3,500,000, of which £3,109,210 has been allocated in respect of the erection and reconstruction of 61,777 dwellings, of which over 32,000 houses were to be built and 29,000 houses reconstructed.

As at the 1st ultimo the number of new houses actually provided by private persons and public utility societies and the number reconstructed were as follows:—

New houses provided in urban areas

10,354

per cent.23

New houses provided in rural areas

15,185

34

Total of new houses

25,539

Number of reconstructed houses

19,631

43

Total number of new and reconstructed houses

45,170

100

Over the whole period (1932 to 1st February, 1939) the allocations were as follows:—36 per cent. to reconstruction of existing houses; 20 per cent. to the erection of new houses in urban areas; and 44 per cent. to the erection of new houses in rural areas.

The necessity for the introduction of the present Bill arises from the fact that the period for the completion of the works in order to qualify for grants expires at the end of the present month. The Bill does not contain any proposal to vary the existing rates of grants, or to provide additional moneys. The sum which remains unallocated amounted on the 1st of last month to £390,000, and seems adequate to meet allocations up to the autumn, at any rate.

There are one or two points to which I may refer. When speaking on the Housing Bill, which became law on the 3rd April, 1936, I mentioned that the largest proportion of the amount provided for grants for new houses in urban areas went to the City of Dublin and the Borough of Dun Laoghaire, and that there did not seem to be the same need for a continuance of grants in urban centres that existed in rural areas. I indicated that the position was being reviewed and, on the occasion of the second Housing Bill, which became law on the 3rd July, 1936, the floor area of houses in urban areas was reduced from 1,250 square feet to 800 square feet. The object of the reduction was to secure the provision of houses for letting to the working classes. This aim, however was not achieved as it has been found that most of the houses provided in urban areas are, in fact, erected for sale. Up to the 1st ultimo, out of 10,354 houses erected in urban areas, only 3,092 were provided in the urban portions of the country outside Dublin City, Dun Laoghaire Borough and Howth urban district.

The growing demands on the Exchequer taken with definite statements made to me by builders that the grant for the urban areas was of little consequence, left us no other option but to discontinue such grants and, accordingly, under the Act of 1937 the period for the completion of houses in urban areas was fixed as the 1st October, 1938. The grants for such houses may have been said to have been then definitely withdrawn but, in consideration of numerous representations made to me in respect of houses which were not completed but were almost completed at the 1st October, 1938, the Government decided to grant a further extension in respect of these houses. This Bill in Section 2 (d) provides that these houses will be eligible for grants if they are completed not later than the 1st proximo.

The second matter to which I wish to draw attention is the date 1942 in Section 2 (b) (i) in respect of houses completed by public utility societies in urban areas for letting. Hitherto it had been usual to provide for a year's extension, i.e., from one year to another. The section is not extensively availed of, but the time limit of one year is somewhat embarrassing. Negotiations in relation to such schemes may be carried on over a lengthy period and in consideration of all the circumstances a three-years period for completion of the works is now being provided.

Section 3, which deals with the remission of rates, is a section in effect to remove doubts. Under the Act of 1932 the partial remission of rates for seven years in respect of houses erected with the aid of grants in urban areas was authorised. A new paragraph (k) was, in effect, substituted by the Housing (Amendment) (No. 2) Act of 1936 for paragraph (b) of Section 5 (1) of the 1932 Act. Houses built under the latter section came within the remission, and the question arose whether houses built under paragraph (k) had the same benefit. The section is considered desirable to clear up the matter.

As the houses affected by outstanding approvals number over 15,000, none of which can be completed by the end of this month, it will be appreciated that it was essential to introduce this Bill in order that the statutory date for completion might be extended so that grants could be paid in respect of works at present in progress.

It may be mentioned that of the £3,500,000 provided under the five Housing Acts previously referred to for the purpose of making grants to private persons and public utility societies, the sum which had been actually paid on the 1st ultimo was £2,475,405. Disregarding the moneys yet unallocated, it will be seen that a sum of over £600,000 still remains to be disbursed.

There are one or two matters to which I would like to refer on this Bill. I do not agree that it is right that a grant should be stopped at this stage in urban areas because without giving a subsidy in urban areas building will cease entirely, as it has almost ceased at the moment. I would strongly appeal to the Minister to extend the time in urban areas to the same limit as for rural areas. If that is not possible, I would then request that it be extended in cases where approval certificates had already been issued. I have in mind a number of houses in Galway City which were started some time ago and in which certificates of approval were issued and for some reason or another, which the Minister probably understands, the houses have not been completed and will not be completed before the 30th April this year.

The reason for the hold-up, in a great many cases, is the lack of water and sewerage, and particularly in those cases I would seriously ask the Minister to consider extending the time for urban areas. I have in mind another few cases where people of very limited means have taken advantage of the Act and have received the first instalment of the grant but, through financial difficulties, they are not in a position to complete the houses. I know one particular case where a workingman undertook the building of a house for himself. He has already received half the grant, but if he has not the house completed before the 1st April next not alone will he lose the other half but the danger is, if the Minister wishes, that he may have to refund the portion of the grant he has already received. I think that would be very bad if it happened.

Speaking generally on housing, I believe that the picture that the Minister has presented is not exactly a true picture in so far as it does not give us details of the number of houses built in rural or urban areas, because we have, as we know, more house building by the Land Commission and by Gaeltacht grants. If the Minister totalled these up, the number of houses built would greatly exceed the total he mentioned. Speaking about the houses built by the Gaeltacht services and the Land Commission, I think that if we are going to tackle seriously the question of houses either in urban or rural areas we will have to co-ordinate our schemes. I have very limited experience as secretary of a utility society and I know there are cases in rural areas where people are anxious to avail themselves of the housing grants and they also require a loan from the Land Commission. This means that those houses are to be inspected by inspectors from the Land Commission and the Local Government Department. If we had co-ordination of those services, only one inspection would be necessary. The same thing applies in the Gaeltacht services.

I remember reading a statement of the Minister in the other House, not on the last occasion, but on the occasion when he introduced the original Bill, that is, when he gave notice of his intention in 1937 to stop the grants in urban areas. He stated that grants were being stopped because other facilities were being made available in the way of loans and reconstruction grants that would be more useful. A number of public authorities have availed themselves of their powers to issue loans under the Small Dwellings Acts. In some places it has been very successful and in others not so successful. I think that if we are going to make any attempt at all to tackle this housing question in a serious manner, we will have to make funds available for a tenant purchase scheme, and I think that if we adopted something on the lines of the Federal Housing Administration scheme adopted in the United States it would be the cheapest and most easily managed scheme. I do not believe in administering loans or funds through local authorities. I think it is not the best method. If we can encourage private enterprise and public utility societies, we will get a better and more satisfactory type of house and the responsibility of the local authorities will not be so great. I think that if we leave the clearing of the slum areas to the local authorities they will have quite sufficient to do in attending to that problem, without having responsibility for the provision of houses for the better-class people, who, in some cases, can afford to lay down a fairly good deposit or make some contribution towards the purchase of the house.

There are, as I said, some things in this Bill with which I am not in agreement. The first one is the stoppage of the grant in urban areas. One of the centres which I have in mind is the City of Galway, and in taking a review of the position a few days ago I found only one house in the course of erection. It seems doubtful if that house will be even completed in time to receive this grant. We are also to lose the remission of rates attached to the former grant. That is very serious and I suggest it is a position which we should seriously consider before we impose such a heavy burden on anybody taking up the provision of houses in urban areas.

Speaking on the original Bill in the Dáil, the Minister referred to the position of houses built by public utility societies for letting in accordance with the provisions of Section 5. That section means that in order that public utility societies would get these facilities the public authority would also have to contribute portion of the grant. I am not sure if that has happened in a particular case, but I doubt very much if any public authority will be prepared to make any contribution to a utility society for the purpose of building houses to let. I do not know if it has happened in any case up to the present.

Another serious objection which I have to the Bill or to the amendment is that it proposes to curtail the floor area of new houses. I agree that no house should be built with less than 500 square feet of floor space, but I think that it is a bad thing to restrict the size of the house. We heard here on another occasion that this restriction had led to a very serious position in Dublin City. Senator Mrs. Concannon suggested that she was informed by people in the Labour movement that it had led to the position that maids were not being kept in houses as originally because the accommodation in the newly-erected houses was rather limited and there was not what we might describe as a maid's room in the house. It was even suggested that on account of that it would be necessary to erect hostels for maids. That is a fact.

I know of a few cases in which this restriction has led to an abuse of the Bill or of certain parts of it. Some people who built houses found out when they were completed that the area was too large for them to receive a grant. In some cases the floor area was 1,250 square feet, and in order to receive the £40 or £45 grant they converted one room into a shop or office. If we look around the country we find that we have a number of shops and offices of no use whatever. I would seriously ask the Minister to reconsider this question of floor area. I would agree that 500 square feet should be the minimum, but I think there should be no restriction on the size of the house. As I said, my chief interest in this Bill is because of my knowledge of the work of a public utility society, and at the present moment there are about 30 houses. That would mean £1,200 or £1,400 of a loss in Galway City alone. For that reason I would ask the Minister to reconsider the question of extending the time in urban areas to at least the same time as is allowed in rural areas.

I have just one more suggestion to make. In reading the debates in the other House, I observed that the Minister stated that he intends next autumn to bring in another Housing Bill which, I understand, will cover the whole range of housing activities. There is just one consideration that I should like him to bear in mind when he is drafting that Bill. I have met cases in rural areas where the housing conditions are much worse than one would find in slum areas in the city. There are certain villages, particularly in Galway, in which the housing conditions are just as bad, if not worse, than they are in slum areas in the city. In such cases a grant of £80 is not sufficient. The occupiers of these houses have no means of getting a loan because the Land Commission or any other body will not give them a loan as their assets do not provide sufficient security. In some of these cases we have given additional grants out of the funds accumulated by our society. I would suggest to the Minister that in the new Bill, which is being drafted, a section might be introduced providing for grants of a greater amount in such cases than those given to the ordinary applicant on a certificate given by the county medical officer of health and the officer administering the Act. I think if both of these officers certified that the conditions in particular cases called for special consideration, if, for instance, any of the members of the family were suffering from tuberculosis or any other disease, a greater grant could be given. I think that the new Bill might be made more elastic in that way. I would again urge on the Minister the advisability of extending the time in urban areas and also the deletion of that portion of the Bill providing for a floor space of 800 feet. If that cannot be done, if a person has received a certificate of approval from the Department, he should receive the grant as if he had completed the building before the Act expires.

Tá sé deanach anois, agus ní maith liom móran cainnte do dhéanamh faoi an mBille seo. I think we should be all in favour of the extension of the time for qualifying for housing grants. Houses are badly needed, in the city particularly. There is a great slump at the present time in house building in the city. At the Dublin Corporation last night, we had a deputation from the Dublin Trades Council asking that building operations should be speeded up. The idea at present is to endeavour as far as possible to build houses with home-manufactured materials. Our builders have had some experience of obtaining supplies of the requisite materials, such as ironwork and ranges, from local manufacturers and they have made no complaint as to the quality of these materials. Since it is now so late, there is no need to stress the matter further. I presume the Bill will be unanimously approved of.

This Bill has had its origin in the fact that many requests were made to me recently in the Dáil to extend the period of time for the payment of grants in urban areas. In 1936, when introducing the Housing Bill of that year, I gave notice that it was my intention at a certain time to drop grants in urban areas. Later, in 1937, I repeated that warning. Subsequently, I gave notice that the grants in urban areas would cease on the 30th of last September. They did actually cease, but at that time there were a number of houses— I think a great number in Dublin; the figure we have got for the whole country so far is about 260—which had been almost completed, but which were not so complete, according to the officers charged with inspecting them, that the grants could be paid. These 260 houses were deprived of grants with some others which, if the time were extended somewhat, could be brought within a reasonable measure of fulfilling the obligations necessary for a grant. All these representations were put up by utility societies, and by members of the Dáil of all Parties who asked that the time should be extended. It is to comply with these requests from societies and from members of the Dáil that the present Bill was introduced. These remarks apply to the principal part of the Bill.

The second part of the Bill relates to the giving of a remission of rates by the local authorities. It was suggested to me, when bringing in this Bill, that there was some ambiguity in the minds of builders as to whether the remission of rates was still in operation or not. I thought it well to clear the matter up, and I put in a section of the Bill announcing to anybody interested that the remission of rates provided for in the previous Acts is still operative. Senator Hawkins is not here now, but I should like him to know that there is no present intention, so far as I am concerned, to carry the grants in urban areas beyond the dates set out in the Bill. I think anybody looking up the figures relating to house-building in urban areas will see that the grant does not appear to have played a very important rôle in encouraging people to build houses in urban areas. There were a good many houses build in Dublin City, in Dun Laoghaire Borough and in Howth area and the grants were paid, of course, in all these cases. A small number of houses were built in urban areas by private persons and public utility societies in other parts of the country, but the vast bulk were built in Dublin County Borough, Dun Laoghaire Borough or in the Howth urban area. Even in these areas I was informed by some builders who had built many of these houses that the grant paid to them in connection with the building of these houses was not an important factor to encourage them to build. Seeing that the grant was not so widely availed of in urban areas, and that money is not so easily got, it was my recommendation to the Government to drop the subsidy in urban areas and to continue it in the rural areas. That policy we intend to carry out.

Senator Hawkins referred to the work of local authorities in providing houses and to the work done under the Gaeltacht Acts. This Bill does not deal with either of these matters. It has no relation to house-building under the Gaeltacht Acts in Gaeltacht areas and no relation to houses built by local authorities. For the information of Senator Hawkins also, I should say that even though the subsidy ceases the remission of rates does not cease. Local authorities have helped in Dublin City, in two cases, private societies which have erected dwellings for letting. The local authorities have given the grants that are allowed under the 1932 Act, and the Acts that followed it, and they have helped in that way these benevolent societies to erect these dwellings. I am sorry that greater use has not been made of this section of the Act.

Senator Hawkins suggests that we should not have any limit so far as floor space is concerned. I think, on consideration, he would realise that that would carry us a very long way and that the difficulties encountered in the end would be much greater than they are at present. After all, our primary work here is to encourage the building of houses for the working classes, and if we leave out a limit as to floor space, grants will be given to persons who do not need them at all.

Everybody needs them.

I do not think that there is the slightest chance of getting from the Government grants for rural areas more generous than are given in the present Act. I have often made the statement, and I have frequently asked for a contradiction of it, if it could be contradicted, that the grants under the 1932 Act, whether in urban or rural areas, given to local authorities were more generous than were given in any other part of the world. I do not think that in present circumstances, with money as tight as it is, there is any likelihood of their being increased.

Question put and agreed to.
Bill put through Committee without amendment, received for final consideration, and ordered to be returned to the Dáil.
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