Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 Jul 1940

Vol. 24 No. 23

Pigs and Bacon Bill, 1940—Second and subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Ryan)

This is a very short Bill. As a matter of fact, there is only one matter of importance in it. In the previous Acts we sought to provide for the compensation of small curers going out of business. It was provided that the Bacon Board would try to come to terms with the person going out of business, and, if they did not succeed, there was to be arbitration. It appears that there was something faulty in the legislation in regard to the arbitration. Even though two of the three arbitrators agreed on a sum to be paid in a certain case, it was held by our legal advisers that a decision could not be carried out unless the three members were unanimous. In this Bill we are providing for a majority decision, and, if two of the three do not agree, then the Minister will appoint one arbitrator to make the award. That one will not be the chairman of the Pigs and Bacon Commission, because it might be felt that the chairman of the commission would be a little bit reluctant to pay high compensation to those going out of business.

Apart from that, the Bill provides for some minor amendments which are of no great importance. One deals with the insurance fund. It is not clear from the previous Act whether the insurance fund includes carcases not converted into bacon. There are some factories carrying on both the bacon and the fresh pork business. It is now made clear that this insurance will cover a carcase, whether it is converted into bacon or not, and that if a claim arises with regard to disease afterwards, it would be paid. It is really an amending Bill to put right matters which were not properly provided for.

Mr. Baxter

This Bill is, I suppose, inevitable in the circumstances, although, as things are, one cannot help wondering whether the elimination of all these small curers was the best thing or not. The Minister, however, has gone so far in his policy of, shall we say, rationalisation that there is no going back, and if the method of determining what the compensation is to be is not satisfactory, it must be cleared up. There is, however, a matter to which I think I might be permitted to refer in relation to the general position of pig production and sale for some short time past. The Minister is, I think, aware that there has been considerable dissatisfaction and disappointment amongst our producers. From every part of the country, one hears the same story: that farmers have taken their pigs to live fairs where the custom has been to sell them and have been unable to sell them or have had to sell them at 10/- a cwt. less than the price which ought to be obtained. In other districts, where there are bacon factories the factories simply told the farmers: "We cannot take your pigs and we will not be able to take them for two or three weeks."

In my view, that is not a position which ought to be allowed to develop, and, if it does develop, should not be allowed to continue for one day longer than is necessary to right the position. In times like these, and particularly when many people have been urging, and, I hope, wisely urging, our pig producers to go in for increased production, you are stopping all production, discouraging producers and creating a situation in which if I, as a farmer with a number of fat pigs on hands, cannot dispose of them to bacon curers, or can dispose of them at a live pig fair only at very bad prices, I am either not going to take the bonhams off the hands of the other farmers or I am going to take them at such a bad price that it will not pay him for producing them. I am aware that the situation between this country and the country with which we do our trade in bacon was that there was no fixed policy, or that there was a policy being pursued which was unsatisfactory from the point of view that we apparently had more to export than these people were prepared to take.

I suggest that if a situation like that develops again, whatever happens and wherever the money comes from, the Minister, acting on behalf of the State, should clear the market. He should take the pigs from the people who have them ready for the market and who have produced them at very considerable cost, mainly by the purchase of very expensive imported foods. These pigs ought to be taken off the market and off the hands of the farmers with whom they are growing into weights which are unsatisfactory from every point of view. The Minister through the Pigs Commission ought to be able to ensure that our bacon curers could take these pigs and cure them in such a fashion as would make it possible to keep the bacon for six months, if necessary. I know that our curers to-day adopt a method of treatment of bacon which means that there must be quick sale, but we cannot afford to land into too many of these periods of disappointments for pig producers. It is very bad not alone for the producers but for the trade of the country.

Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator is not making a speech on the previous Bill to which this is an amending Bill?

Mr. Baxter

There is a relation between the speech I am making and the fact that a number of small curers have been closed down, and that we are going to give compensation to them under this Bill. We are making provision to compensate a number of small curers who have been closed down previously.

Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are only making provision to alter the arrangements for arbitration under the previous Bill. There is nothing further about compensation arising on this Bill that is not in the previous Bill, as I understand the matter. I think it would be undesirable that we should develop a long debate on the whole question of the bacon trade on this, which is purely an amending Bill in respect of two particular points.

Mr. Baxter

I am prepared to accept the decision that I am not entitled to put before the Minister the considerations which I am availing of this chance to put before him, although I am satisfied that were these minor curers in a position to continue their trade, quite a number of these people would be able to take off the market a considerable number of pigs which were not taken off the market. They were heavy pigs suitable to the home trade, but because they have to be cured in larger factories, from the point of view of export, they are not suitable and the result for many of our farmers has been very discouraging. If you, Sir, say that I am not entitled to argue that, I do not propose to continue the debate or to get into a general discussion, but this is a very grave matter. There is evidence from all parts of the country as to its gravity. I have personal knowledge of it—I have been hearing it from various people at the Agricultural Commission—and the Minister, I am sure, is well aware of it.

My view is that it is a matter of such moment to the State that no crisis of the kind should be permitted to arise again. The credit of the State ought to be pledged in order to take this food, to cure it and to store it, so that we may be allowed to get on with the production of more; but if we are to leave food like that to grow over-ripe on the hands of our producers, the Minister knows as well as I do what the consequences to producers will be. It is a very bad state of mind to get our farmers into in these days, and the Minister ought not to let a situation like that develop again. It ought to be possible to get credit to deal with goods like these and to ensure that they will not get into such a condition that they will be unfit for consumption. We do not know what may happen before the Seanad meets again, but the Minister ought to face up to a position of this kind and adopt stern measures, because we in the country feel that the responsibility is on him to keep us working and to get our goods taken off our hands, when ready. If they are to be left with us, we will not be encouraged to go back into increased production again.

Mr. MacCabe

I agree with a good deal of what Senator Baxter said. I am sorry to say that there are complaints, and justified complaints, in the country in regard to the taking of pigs by the factories. In a number of cases, the pig owner approaches the factory representative and finds that he is not in a position to take the pigs on a certain day or in a certain week, with the result that the pig owner has to hold over his pigs. When he arrives at the factory in, say, ten or 12 days, the pigs are then overweight and consequently he is cut in price. That is an injustice to the man who has the pigs for sale and he has no wide market. In other words, there is no competition; he is dependent solely on the factory in his own area to dispose of his pigs and to get a price which will in some way recompense him for his outlay.

Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator should relate his remarks to the contents of the Bill. The debate seems to be developing on lines that have nothing to do with this Bill.

Mr. MacCabe

The Minister should take a note of these points, even though it may not come within the scope of the Bill. It is in his power to investigate the grievances which are felt in the country, and if that is done the Bill would be justified and people would have more reason to embark on the production of pigs in the future. I agree with what Senator Baxter said in regard to it.

Mr. O'Callaghan

Would the Minister say how many small curers there are whom it would be desirable to eliminate?

Dr. Ryan

There were about 11 small curers to be dealt with in the beginning under this compensation clause. There are not more than six left. As the Leas-Chathaoirleach has pointed out, this Bill does not deal with that business. The clause under which these men retired was brought in in 1935 and I think the last date for retiring from business was March, 1937. They are out of business for a long time now, but there was defective machinery for paying compensation. By passing this Bill the Seanad is not doing anything to eliminate curers: they are gone already. I can recollect three or four who are still awaiting compensation. They were not driven out: they had the option to remain if they wished, but they themselves opted to go. That does not apply to them all; some of them did not fulfil the conditions under which they could stay, but quite a number of them did fulfil the conditions.

If the Leas-Chathaoirleach would allow me, I should like to deal with one or two points which may be of some importance to producers throughout the country. I am quite well aware of the dissatisfaction which existed for some time. That was due entirely to the want of a market for our bacon. In addition to our home consumption, the quota which the British Government had agreed to give us was not sufficient. As a result, our curers had a lot of surplus bacon, which they could not dispose of; and curers in turn were reluctant to take pigs. We tried as hard as we could to deal with this matter, and the Pigs Commission advertised rather extensively that they would go to any market and buy pigs for export. They went to a good number of markets. Wherever a Deputy or Senator sent word to me or to them that there was likely to be a surplus of pigs without buyers, they always sent a buyer to take up the surplus. They did not confine that to dealing with requests from Deputies and Senators; wherever representative people from the locality notified them, they always attended. They did not always get very many pigs. There were a few instances where I was very much impressed by the case put up by Deputies of different Parties that there would be something approaching chaos if no one attended. The commission's representatives attended: in one case, they got only one pig and in another case they got no pigs. However, on an average for some weeks past, they have got 700 or 800 pigs a week in that way, and these have been exported.

They have been exported in two ways. Wherever there were live-weight scales available they bought them at the local live-weight price. On the other hand, if there were no live-weight scales available, or if the producer there wished them to do so, they exported the pigs as his agent, deducting all expenses and giving the producer what he was entitled to after the expenses were deducted. That, of course, was very favourable as, especially at the present time, they get the same price on the British market as any other exporter would get. At other times, it might not be so good as, not being in the business before, they might not do so well; but at the present time they get the same price from the British Food Controller as anyone else. Their expenses would be the same and the commission hand back to the producer the remainder, without keeping anything for themselves. The ordinary exporter could not do that, as he has to live as well, and in that way it may have been a bit unfair to the ordinary exporter. Perhaps it was, but it was not unfair to the producers, who should have done fairly well out of it.

I believe that the trouble is now over because—as Senators are probably aware from notices in the public Press—we have got an extra quota for 60,000 cwts. of bacon from the British Food Controller. That 60,000 cwts. will be going out during this month and next month, in addition to the ordinary quota; and I think there will be quite a good demand for pigs from the curers, as they will find it difficult enough to fill both the ordinary quota and the extra quota and maintain the home market during the coming two months. For the last few days, it looks as if the number of live pigs going out is already going down, which would indicate that the factories are looking for more. There is, therefore, every hope that the producer will be able to dispose of his pigs without any difficulty for some time to come.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take the remaining stages now.

Bill considered in Committee.

Sections 1 to 7, inclusive, and Title, agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment.

Question—"That the Bill be received for final consideration"—put and agreed to.

Question—"That the Bill do now pass"—put and agreed to.