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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Apr 1942

Vol. 26 No. 12

Insurance (Intermittent Unemployment) Bill, 1939—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill is to establish a system of insuring workers in the building trade against loss of employment due to inclement weather. The problem of loss of employment, due to inclement weather, has exercised the minds of people interested in the building trade for a considerable time and, in other countries, individual employers and groups of employers have attempted to devise ways and means of minimising the effect upon workers in the industry. In this country, we have decided to endeavour to deal with that problem by way of a national insurance scheme.

The origin of this attempt is to be found in the building strike which took place in 1937 and which lasted for a long time, as Senators will remember. One of the demands made by the workers' side in that dispute was for payment in respect of time lost due to bad weather. That demand was resisted by the employers and, during the course of the negotiations which led to the settlement of the dispute, the proposal emerged that a scheme of insurance should be devised along the lines of the State insurance scheme against unemployment for the purpose of creating a fund, from contributions to be paid by workers and employers, from which benefits would be payable to workers during loss of employment due to bad weather. This Bill was prepared in consultation with the representatives of the associations of employers and the associations of workers connected with the building industry. It is very largely their Bill. It took a long time to prepare and to get the statistical information upon which the provisions of the Bill could be based but, eventually, an agreed measure resulted from these discussions.

The Bill, as some Senators may remember, was introduced in the Dáil in July, 1939, but during the period of the adjournment of the Dáil the present war began and, owing to the circumstances then existing, the Second Reading of the Bill was not proceeded with. Some time ago I again called into consultation the representatives of the organisations which had been responsible for framing the Bill and discussed with them the desirability of proceeding with the measure. They were of opinion that the measure should be proceeded with and, consequently, the Second Reading of the Bill was taken in the Dáil and the Bill passed by that House with some minor amendments. It is not usual, I think, to have a Bill of this kind which can be presented to the Oireachtas as an agreed measure. This is in every sense an agreed measure. As I have already stated, it is very largely the product of the industry itself, of both parties involved in the industry, and the State came in only for the purpose of ensuring that the administrative scheme of the Bill would be workable. In fact, we decided to model the Bill upon the Unemployment Insurance Acts and to use for the purpose of this insurance scheme the machinery already in existence for the purpose of the Unemployment Insurance Acts.

The Bill proposes that a fund will be established. Into that fund will be paid contributions in respect of each worker employed in the building industry for each week in which he is so employed. The contributions will be paid equally by employers and by workers. The State does not propose to make a contribution to this intermittent unemployment fund in the same way as it makes contribution to the Unemployment Insurance Fund. Instead, it is proposed that the entire amount of the fund will be available for the payment of benefits and that the State will undertake the cost of administering the scheme. It is estimated that the cost of administering the scheme will be about £10,000 per year.

The Bill provides that a worker who loses his employment solely because of the fact that it is not possible to carry it on owing to weather conditions— rain, snow, frost or other inclement weather conditions—which make outdoor work impracticable, will receive benefits at the rates set out in the Schedule of the Bill from his employer. His employer will be entitled to recover the amount so paid from the fund. Apart from that variation, the general scheme of the Bill is in all respects similar to the scheme in the Unemployment Insurance Acts.

It is recognised, of course, that difficulty will be experienced, at any rate, during the period in which the scheme is being brought into operation, in defining precisely workers in the building trade. It is obvious that the building trade covers a variety of subsidiary industries and there will be many border-line cases in which it will be a matter of some difficulty to say whether the individual worker should or should not be within the scheme. It is proposed that the Minister for Industry and Commerce will have power to decide questions of demarcation, subject to an appeal to the High Court or, alternatively, that he may submit the question for decision to the High Court. I expect that in the course of time there will be a number of decisions made which will gradually clarify the whole position and ensure that there will be amongst those interested a clear understanding of the classes of workers that are entitled to insure under this measure and entitled to receive benefit under this measure and those who are not. I think, in fact, that the provisions of the Bill dealing with that most difficult problem of demarcation are as effective as they can be made. No doubt. some Senators have received representations on behalf of individual sections of workers affected by the circumstances of the building industry but who are not as liable to lose employment during inclement weather as other workers are.

It is, I think, desirable that a scheme of this kind should be spread over as many classes of workers as possible. Clearly, the larger the number of workers that are within the scheme the sounder it will be. While it is true that some classes of building trade workers are more liable to be affected by inclement weather and, consequently, will benefit more by the Bill than others, it is proposed that all workers should pay the contributions. The justification for that is, of course, that all workers are affected in equal degree by the prosperity of the industry and affected by anything that may give rise to disputes in the industry and, consequently, stoppages of work. Every class of worker employed in building was affected by the six months' strike in 1937 and it is in the interests of all of them that anything that tends to promote peace in the industry and to eliminate this most fertile cause of disputes should be proceeded with.

Furthermore, I am in the position of bringing the Bill to the House with the information that the representatives of all classes of workers affected in the building industry and of all classes of employers engaged in that industry have agreed to the measure, and I think that agreement should weigh considerably in the minds of members of the Oireachtas in considering any representations that might be made by small interests against the provisions of the measure. It is proposed, of course, that workers who are in permanent employment, who are paid their full week's wages irrespective of the possibility that they may not be able to work, due to bad weather, can be exempted from the provisions of the Bill by a certificate from the Minister for Industry and Commerce, just as workers similarly circumstanced can at present be and are exempted from the provisions of the Unemployment Insurance Acts.

One other provision of the Bill I should mention and that is the section which gives power to extend this scheme of insurance against loss of employment due to inclement weather to other classes of workers. We propose to limit the scheme for the present to the building trade but, clearly, there are many other classes of workers who are affected by inclement weather and liable to lose employment during inclement weather to the same degree or almost to the same degree as workers in the building trade, and it is contemplated that at some stage this scheme will be extended to include such workers.

Will the Minister give us instances that he has in mind?

Say, constructional engineering—persons employed in the construction of bridges, roads, etc.

Not farm labourers?

No. I think the task of extending a scheme of this kind to farm labourers or turf workers or persons of that kind would be almost impossible, but there are certain classes of occupations, which are very analogous to those in the building trade, to which the Bill might eventually be extended. I think, however, we should see how it works in relation to the building trade before considering any such extension, and if we find that it does work well, that the financial basis of it is sound, then we can consider such extension and, possibly, we may be able eventually to get to the stage where many classes of workers now liable to loss of wages and loss of employment during inclement weather can be protected in this way.

I should say also that the rates of contribution and the rates of benefit proposed in the Schedules to the Bill are necessarily experimental. We arranged to collect all the information available prior to 1939 as to the actual experience of individual employers on building jobs undertaken by them in the matter of the interruption of work due to inclement weather, and, in the year 1939, we arranged for fairly precise records to be taken. In respect of the years 1940 and 1941 these records are almost complete. Unfortunately, however, they are not very conclusive as to what the permanent result of the operations of the Bill will be on the financial side.

In the year 1940 the fund would have accumulated a surplus; in 1941 it would have realised a deficit. So that it is obvious the experience of two years is not sufficient to enable a firm conclusion to be arrived at. It is necessary, therefore, that power be taken to vary the rates of benefit or the rates of contribution, but in practice if any variation has to be made at all, it will necessarily be in the rates of benefit; because contributions will be paid by stamps affixed to cards, and the change in the value of the stamps or the printing of new stamps could not be done very quickly, whereas the rates of benefit can be changed almost at once if the circumstances require it. If the fund acquires a surplus which looks permanent, the rates will be increased, or alternatively, if it realises a deficit which looks like being permanent, the rates of benefit will be decreased. I have undertaken that before any such change is made the parties responsible for framing the Bill will be consulted, and given an opportunity of expressing their views. The responsibility for protecting the solvency of the fund is on the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

I think I have outlined the general principles of the Bill in sufficient detail to enable Senators to express their opinion on it. The details of the Bill deal very largely with the machinery of operation and can be more conveniently discussed in Committee. I should explain, of course, that any proposal to change the provisions of the Bill in a substantial way would involve me in the obligation to consult with the parties that were responsible for the framing of the Bill before expressing an opinion on that proposal. The committees appointed by the Association of Master Builders and the Federation of Building Trades Unions put a great deal of work into this measure. They spent a long time elaborating this machinery, endeavouring to perfect it in every part, and should be consulted before any substantial change would be made. I am not referring to drafting points or proposals which might make the working of the machine more efficient than it might otherwise be.

It is only necessary to remember that the provisions of the Bill are framed so closely on the provisions of the Unemployment Insurance Acts, and there is so much experience available in relation to the operation of these Acts, that it is unlikely that any modification of that machinery could be proposed which would show a substantial improvement. The Unemployment Insurance Acts have been amended on a number of occasions, and they now represent a code of laws working efficiently. It is intended that the intermittent unemployment fund will be administered by the same officers as the Unemployment Insurance Acts. It is obvious that the points of similarity between the two codes should be maintained. The local officers of the Department of Industry and Commerce, the courts of referees, and the umpire established under the Unemployment Insurance Act, will act in a similar manner, and for similar purposes, under this Bill.

I have pleasure in recommending this Bill to the House. I think it will effect a considerable improvement in the conditions of employment in the building trade after the war. At the moment conditions are depressed and they are likely to remain depressed so long as the war lasts. That is not altogether a disadvantage from the point of view of the officers responsible for bringing this Bill into operation; because they should be able to have the whole system working smoothly when normal conditions are restored and employment in the trade begins to rise again, which I hope will not be long. But our hopes do not matter in that case. The State's part in this scheme is to ensure that it is administered efficiently, to pay the cost of administration, and protect the solvency of the fund established under the Bill. At some later stage, whoever constitutes the Government then, will have to consider in the light of experience, whether the principle should be extended to other classes of workers.

This Bill is in the nature of an agreed measure between the trades unions and the employers' associations in the building industry, and more particularly in the Dublin building industry. I do not think there is very much one could say on it except to congratulate the Minister on introducing this very necessary and praiseworthy piece of legislation. As the Minister said, it will effect a considerable improvement in the conditions under which building trade workers operate, more particularly in this city. The fact that building trade workers could be laid off without notice or compensation has been a long-standing grievance among workers engaged in that industry. The Minister referred to the possibility of an extension of this scheme to other classes of workers, and I hope he will lose no time in extending it. As the Minister has indicated, there have been some complaints in regard to the scheme. Some particular classes of workers object to being brought within the ambit of the scheme. I think the electrical trade workers assert that they are not employed in the building trade industry at all—that electrical work is done by way of special contract between the person employed and the union itself. They feel a sense of grievance because they have not been consulted in regard to this Bill, and they took no action in the conferences dealing with it, because they did not imagine that they would be brought within the ambit of the Bill. Efforts that were made in the Dáil to have their exclusion effected, by way of amendment by Deputy Keyes, were not successful, but even if it were accepted, I think the Minister would have power to include them in the Bill under Clause 15. However, I do not think that the electricians have any real grievance, and I just mentioned it because they did object. It is an admirable piece of legislation, and I hope that the Minister will carry out his promise to have it applied to other classes of workers.

Substantially, I agree with what has been said by Senator Campbell, and I should like to congratulate the Minister on the fact of introducing legislation which has been achieved in the manner in which legislation of this kind ought to be achieved. It is a good thing that it is possible to introduce legislation of this kind and have it admitted all round that it is substantially an agreed measure. There is only one thing in the Bill which causes me a certain amount of misgiving, and that is the power to extend it by simple order to any other trade whatsoever. I can quite see, if it were confined to trades analogous to the building trade, that probably the same conditions as will operate under this Bill would be applicable; but it seems to me that as far as any other trade is concerned, it would be much more desirable that a similar procedure should be adopted, and to my mind the Minister should not have power to extend it to other trades until he is in a position to state whether or not he has consulted representatives of employers and employed in connection with particular trades. I gathered from the Minister's speech that if he is the Minister concerned, it would be his intention so to consult, but already we have had the case of certain workers who think they have a grievance because they were not consulted. It is quite likely that if they had been, their sense of grievance would not have been so strong, as they would have a better opportunity of realising the position. I do not at all disagree with what Senator Campbell has said in that regard.

Senators will, however, observe from the Bill that the Minister has power to extend its provisions to any other trade and that that can be done by a simple order laid on the Table of the House. I quite see that, as far as most of the orders are concerned, it is quite sufficient to provide that they should be laid on the Table of the House with the power of annulment by motion, but I think that if this Bill is extended to any other trade, it should be done by specific resolution so that the matter will come before the Oireachtas for discussion. If there is any strong feeling against it, an opportunity will then be provided of ventilating that feeling without placing the onus on an individual member of either House to move that the Order should be rejected.

I think the Minister will appreciate that there is quite a distinction between the two modes of procedure. For instance, for my part I have no objection to placing before this House grievances which are put to me on behalf of industries without necessarily sponsoring or accepting full responsibility for them myself. I put them forward for what they are worth, so that the Minister concerned may become aware of them. I would at the same time hesitate a good deal before I would put down a motion which would have the effect actually of rescinding an order. Therefore I should like to see the Bill amended to provide that if power is to be given to extend to other trades, that power can only be operated by means of a resolution passed by both Houses. As far as I can see, that is the one part of the Bill which could hardly be said to be an agreed provision, because the workers and the employers in the building trade have no right to agree that it should be extended to another trade. Generally, I am in favour of the Bill, and the power to which I refer is the only feature of it that causes me any misgiving.

As this is an agreed Bill, which has met with the approval of all interested parties, I have very little to say in regard to it. The only anomaly that presents itself in the Bill is concerned with compensation for loss of time. There is no provision made for a married man with a dependent family more than for a single man. The single man apparently is entitled to the same compensation as the married man with a family. I am sure that has been considered by those who drafted the Bill, and I only mention it now in the hope that the Minister might again consider that aspect before amendments are put forward.

Like my colleague. Senator Campbell, I congratulate the Minister on the introduction of the measure. I have not very much to say in regard to it at this stage. The Bill is an agreed measure, as far as both sides of the industry are concerned, and it is desirable that when both parties come together, in the manner in which they have come together on this measure, the State should intervene and lend its aid wherever it possibly can. Workers generally are subject to many handicaps and difficulties, and it is not competent for them in many cases to provide for themselves. Consequently, the decision of the State to intervene and help them out is to be welcomed. The extension of the principle to other industries as experience may show, may not best be done by order because of the very great variation one finds between one industry and another. I doubt whether it will be possible to apply in extenso the principle and the structure of a Bill to other trades. However, that is a matter that can be ascertained in the future administration of the Bill.

The Minister referred to border-line difficulties of demarcation. He will probably find that somewhat of a hedgehog, but the manner in which he proposes to meet these difficulties will probably prove suitable. The matter is to be referred to the Minister for decision in the first instance and, if the parties are dissatisfied, they can have recourse to the High Court. As the Minister says, in the course of time a body of case law will be set up which will adjudicate many of the cases that may arise. As the Bill is an agreed measure, there is little that can be said on it at this stage. We welcome the principle embodied in it and congratulate the Government on what they have done. We hope that this social activity of the Government will extend to other industries where the circumstances of such industries warrant the application of similar legislation.

I shall deal with the various points in the order in which they were raised. Reference was made to the position of electricians under the Bill. The complaint that may have been advanced by the electricians' trade union that they were not consulted in reference to the Bill is one with which I have difficulty in dealing. All classes of trades concerned with the building industry were affected by the trade dispute out of which this Bill emerged and, following that dispute, bodies of people came together who were stated to be, and claimed to be, representative of all the interests concerned. Now these bodies, of course, did not include representatives of all the interests concerned. There is a very large number of trades in the building industry and representatives of all the employers and the workers were not on the committee which prepared the Bill, but I was entitled to assume that any comsultations which were necessary within the respective groups had taken place and that the people who came as representatives could speak for all. In the case of the electricians, however, their main objection to the Bill has been largely met by the amendment which was introduced in Committee in the Dáil and which provides that contributions are only payable on behalf of a worker if he is employed in connection with building for the greater part of the week. I think the electricians' main fear was that one of their members sent to do a job of work lasting an hour or two in the wiring of a house that was being built might have to pay a contribution for the whole week.

The fact that such contributions will not now be paid has lessened the objection to the Bill. There was, of course, an effort made to exempt from the provisions of the Bill workers employed by sub-contractors. That proposal did not relate merely to electricians. It related to terrazzo workers, those concerned with the installation of heating equipment, and so on. I thought it undesirable that we should exempt workers employed by sub-contractors, if workers doing similar work and employed by the main contractors were liable, as the tendency would be to employ the sub-contractors rather than the main contractors. In any event, all these classes of workers are affected seriously by a stoppage in the industry, and even though it is true that some classes may benefit more from the Bill than others, it is not unreasonable to say that the whole lot should contribute to this plan to reduce causes of dispute in the industry.

I agree with Senator Douglas that any proposal to extend this Bill to classes of workers other than those in the building trade would involve a major decision of policy and could not be lightly embarked upon. Consultation with interests involved would certainly be necessary, and I think Senator Lynch is right in saying the adoption of such a proposal might involve some modification of the provisions of the Bill itself, in which case new legislation would be necessary. The section is in there for two purposes—first to ensure that machinery will be available to deal with any minor difficulty that may arise, where there is no clear line of demarcation between workers employed in building and those employed in some analogous occupation; and secondly, to give an indication that, if it is ultimately decided to extend this scheme of insurance to other classes of workers, it will be based on the one fund, and the one fund will be the source of benefits payable to such workers.

I have no strong objection to Senator Douglas's suggestion that an Order under Section 15 should be positively approved of by the Oireachtas rather than that the Oireachtas should have power merely to rescind it. I do not think that is a matter upon which any question of principle arises, and if it is the view of this House that it is desirable to make that change I will not oppose it.

Senator Honan inquired about the possibility of making benefits available according to the domestic needs of the employee. That is not intended. Wages in the building trade are not variable according to the domestic needs of the employee, and what we are going to give is a substitute for wages, though something less, but designed to ensure that he will not get nothing. As the Senator knows, there is a standard rate of wages for each class of worker, which does not take into account that worker's circumstances, and, consequently, a proposal to pay benefit in lieu of wages does not take into account the worker's circumstances either. It would complicate the measure very considerably if we had to keep records of the number of dependents of each worker and his family circumstances which might justify an upward or a downward change in the benefit payable.

I think these are the main points that were raised in regard to this Bill. If there are some minor points of detail, I think we can discuss them on the Committee Stage.

On the question of the amendment, would it not be better if the Minister proposed the amendment himself, as any other amendment would have to be drafted by the Parliamentary draftsman?

Yes, I will consider that.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage fixed for Wednesday, 6th May.
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