Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 May 1942

Vol. 26 No. 14

County Management (Amendment) Bill, 1942—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. MacEntee)

In the County Management Act, 1940, it is provided that the Act come into operation on a day to be fixed by the Minister. It was intended that the local elections would be held before that day, and that the newly elected councils, acting in association with the newly appointed county managers, would inaugurate the county management system in all counties simultaneously.

It has not been feasible to adopt that course, and the main purpose of the present Bill is to enable the County Management Act to be put into operation before the elections are held. In order to do that, it becomes necessary to make special provision for the position of counties in which members of the county councils have been removed from office. Accordingly, it is proposed, pending the restoration of these councils, to postpone the appointment of the first permanent manager, and instead, to retain the commissioners and empower them to act as managers in their respective counties until such time as full effect can be given to the provisions of the Principal Act. This is provided for in Sections 5, 6 and 7 of the present Bill.

Other amendments which it is thought opportune to make in the Principal Act are contained in Sections 3 and 4. Section 3 of the Bill will enable a statutory body, other than a pier or harbour authority, or vocational education committee, at least one half of the members of which are required to be appointed by two or more rating authorities, to be brought within the definition of the joint body and, therefore, within the scope of the managerial system. New statutory bodies may be created in the future, and it may be thought desirable to apply the scheme to such bodies, and, indeed, to some existing bodies as well. Section 4 of the Bill makes a change in the procedure for the selection of the first permanent county manager. Under the Act of 1940, the Local Appointments Commissioners, in selecting the first managers, are required to give a preference, firstly to the county secretary in his own county and, secondly, to the secretary of the board of health. It is proposed that a commissioner acting for a county council or board of health should be considered for appointment after the county secretary in the county in which he is acting, and, in other counties, after the secretary of the board of health.

The effect of Section 4 on the relevant provisions in the Principal Act will be more readily apprehended if the order in which the Local Appointments Commissioners will consider the several officers to whom I have referred is borne in mind. So far as counties in which the county councillors are functioning, and which are not grouped with other counties are concerned, the order will be: first, the secretary of the county council; second, the secretary of the board of health; third, the commissioner or commissioners of suspended county councils or boards of health; fourth, secretaries of other county councils and, fifth, secretaries of other boards of health. In counties in which the county council is suspended—except in Dublin County which is placed in a special position by reason of certain provisions of the Principal Act— first, in order of preference, will be the secretary of the county council; second, the commissioner of the suspended county council or board of health; third, the secretary of the board of health; fourth, the other existing commissioners for county councils or boards of health, that is commissioners acting outside the particular county under consideration; fifth, the secretaries of other county councils and, sixth, secretaries of other boards of health.

In counties in which the members of the county council have been removed, the selection of the permanent manager will, as I have already indicated, be deferred until it has been decided to reconstitute the county council on an elective basis. In the case of a county in which the county councillors are still in office, but which, under the Principal Act, is grouped with another county in which the council is suspended, the Minister will appoint a person to act temporarily as county manager until the suspended county council has been reconstituted, and the appointment of the first permanent manager for both counties in the group has been made.

Sub-section (2) of Section 4 has been inserted in the Bill in view of the postponement of the first appointment in certain counties, and is intended to preserve the priority given under the Principal Act to the officers who are county secretaries or secretaries of boards of health at the passing of the Act, provided that at the date of the appointment of the first permanent manager they hold office under any local authority.

These interim arrangements involve a consequential provision with regard to assistant county managers. If an assistant county manager is required to be appointed in a county other than Dublin, in which the council has been suspended, or in a county grouped with it, he will not take up office until the suspended council has been reconstituted. In practice, the effect of this provision will be that an assistant county manager will not be appointed in the grouped counties of Tipperary North Riding and Tipperary South Riding, whilst a temporary manager is acting in such county council area. The position in relation to these counties will be that we shall have in the case of North Riding, where the council has not been suspended, a temporary county manager, and, in the case of the South Riding, we shall have a commissioner acting also there as county manager. In view of the fact that there will be two whole-time officials operating, it will not be necessary, in my view, to appoint an assistant county manager to administer one or other of these ridings as was the intention under the Principal Act.

Dublin County is in a different position from other counties, inasmuch as, under the Principal Act, the Dublin City Manager is appointed to be the Dublin County Manager. The provision of this Bill, accordingly, in regard to the order of priority in the appointment of county managers, does not apply to Dublin.

The Commissioner appointed last September in place of the Dublin County Council and certain subsidiary bodies will discharge the duties of manager. Because a certain order of priority has been settled in the Principal Act in regard to the manner in which the selection of the first permanent county managers ought to be made, it is not to be taken that we feel that the qualities which go to make a successful county manager are to be found solely amongst any particular class of officers. When vacancies occur after the first managers have been appointed, or, in respect of such first appointments, should the prescribed preferences be exhausted before suitable persons are found to fill every vacancy available, it is not to be taken from what I have said that the field of selection will be limited to any class or group either in the service or in the community. When the preferences have been exhausted in the making of the first selections, and when subsequent selections for posts as county managers come to be made, any officer can come forward as a candidate in whatever class or grade he may be, or any person, whether an officer of a local authority or not, may also offer himself as a candidate. For the first managers, as the House is aware, preferences will be accorded to particular officers. Whether those preferences should have been given is, of course, a subject on which opinions may differ, but it was removed from the field of discussion by the fact that the Oireachtas, in the Principal Act, granted them. The decision to do so was taken, I believe, on two grounds. First, it was held that, in making this departure from the system of local government that had been in operation in the country for more than 40 years, we should endeavour to secure the active assistance of all those officers whose knowledge of their respective areas, of the institutions within them, of the officers with whom they would have to collaborate, and, above all, of the people amongst whom they live and whose affairs they would administer, would make them fit instruments to effect the transition from the old to the new system, provided that those officers, in character and ability, were suitable for appointment.

The second reason which determined the Oireachtas in its decision was that it was felt that, as a matter of fair play and equity, special consideration should be given to the position of county secretaries and secretaries of boards of health. Hitherto the county secretary has been the chief executive officer of the county council and has had a certain responsibility for overseeing all the activities of the county council. The advent of the manager must inevitably depress the status of the county secretaryship and, therefore, it was thought not to be unreasonable that the holder of such a secretaryship should be considered first and recommended for the new post if he were found to be suitable. The secretary of the board of health is in an even more unenviable position, because he will suffer the abolition of his office, and, although he will merge in the county council staff, it is only fair that he, in his proper order, should be given special consideration for the new post of county manager.

So far as the amendment which is proposed in Section 4 of this Bill is concerned, the position is that the commissioners to whom the section relates have been carrying out the work of local authorities for varying periods and have, in fact, though not in name, been acting as county managers. They have, therefore, very special experience, which gives them, I think, in the public interest the right to be considered, with due regard to the position of the other officers to whom I have referred.

Mr. M. Hayes

Might I ask the Minister a question? Are there any qualifications prescribed for commissioners, or how are they selected?

Mr. MacEntee

They are appointed by the Minister, as a rule, and they consist of officers of his Department who have special experience of the type of administration which they are called upon to perform. I may say that the only difficulty we have had in regard to commissioners, when once we appoint them, is to get the people whose affairs they have administered to agree to their being transferred elsewhere and the local administration entrusted to other hands.

Mr. Baxter

Whose opinion did the Minister ask about that?

Mr. D. Healy

Does the Minister suggest that that happened in regard to the Dublin Corporation?

Mr. M. Hayes

If the Minister goes too far, we will almost believe everything he has said, and that will be dreadful.

Mr. Hogan

Will the Minister say how he discovered that?

Mr. Baxter

He will not tell you that. It is a secret.

Mr. MacEntee

If there is any person who wants to consider the merits or otherwise of a county commissioner, I should just like to let him look at some of the demand notes issued by some of the recently appointed commissioners, and compare them with the demand notes issued in previous years.

Mr. M. Hayes

Is it not true that the Minister has power to appoint any person he pleases as commissioner?

Mr. MacEntee

Certainly.

Mr. M. Hayes

And then he makes that person not only eligible but gives him a certain order of priority for the post of county manager?

Mr. MacEntee

That is correct, and the Minister is perfectly prepared to stand over any appointment he has made.

Mr. M. Hayes

The Minister will stand over anything. That is no trouble to him.

Mr. MacEntee

As a matter of fact, the Minister has generally been supported on the stand he has taken whenever he has gone to the people on matters of this sort. The main thing to be borne in mind in connection with all this is that the successful launching of county management will depend altogether on the character and ability of the first managers. I think it goes without saying that they must be trained administrators, with a knowledge not only of the letter of the laws they have to administer but of the spirit of those laws. They have to work within the limits set by the financial and legal framework of local government, and it will be the business of each to co-ordinate the activities of all the officers of the local authorities, so that the machine will work smoothly, efficiently, and without unnecessary friction. As soon as this Bill is passed, and when the new county managers have been selected by the Local Appointments Commissioners, it is intended to put the Principal Act into operation, together with the two other Acts with which it is linked, that is to say the Public Assistance Act, 1939, and the Local Government Act, 1941, so far as the latter Act has not already been put into operation. Finally, I may say that the Bill does not make any fundamental alteration in the Principal Act. It does not vary in any particular the powers conferred by the Principal Act on the council or on the manager, or impose any new duty or function on either.

Mr. M. Hayes

The Minister looked rather mournful in making his rather elaborate explanation about this Bill. I thought it was only a machinery Bill, that it would only mean putting county managership in operation without having an election. For a Bill which may be described as a machinery Bill, this measure has, certainly, interesting aspects. It indicates a very considerable change of mind and of heart on the part of the Minister with regard to local bodies, their functions, their methods of functioning and their methods of management.

I heard the Minister much more vocal on a certain occasion than he was here this evening, when he protested for three days at odd intervals about the Greater Dublin Bill, which provided for the managerial system in the City of Dublin. There was a great deal of talk about democracy, but the moment the Minister and his colleagues got into power——

Mr. Douglas

He was supported by the people in that attitude.

Mr. M. Hayes

Yes, and he got into power by objecting to the managerial system in Dublin. He proceeded to give adult suffrage for local elections and then proceeded to make local bodies as political as they possibly could be, so that the local bodies that we have at the moment, the county councils and other bodies, are the creation of the Minister and his colleagues. It is no wonder that the Minister looks mournful, because he is engaged to-day in what one might describe as the final act of the murder of his own children in the county councils. Altogether we have some seven county councils suppressed, and indications that more will be suppressed. I do not want to go into the merits of the dissolution of those bodies because I do not profess to be an authority on that subject, but there is one very interesting point about this Bill. It is a point which perhaps we might consider in Committee; it is interesting to see that when the Minister appoints a commissioner, he gives that commissioner prior claim to appointment as county manager.

I have nothing to say against these commissioners. Some of them that I know of are admirable people, but in appointing these county commissioners the Minister is not restricted by any set of qualifications. No doubt the managerial system will be an improvement, but it is adding something to the all-powerful Civil Service, adding something to the centralisation of authority and taking the ordinary people away from the work of local government.

The Minister has been converted from the opinion that local bodies ought to be allowed to carry on to the opinion that they ought to have no power at all. To my mind, the Minister who makes these decisions about local bodies is by no means free from sin. When one thinks for a moment or two about the Local Government Department itself, one realises that it is by no means the most expeditious, the swiftest, or the most civil Department that we have. It is by no means the most impartial or competent, and it has in itself done quite a considerable amount of jobbery within the past ten years. However, this may provide better machinery for local bodies. I think it is relevant to say, on a measure such as this, that while in the past 20 years there have been very great changes in the function of civil servants—in the function of the State itself and therefore, as a necessary result, in the function of civil servants —I do not think that anything has been done to overhaul the Civil Service to make it suitable to the new situation.

I really rose to make one point concerning this House. The local bodies are having the managerial system imposed on them, perhaps all for the best. A number of these bodies have been abolished. Seven county councils have been abolished and I think a corporation is at present threatened. It is interesting to remember that the only power left in the hands of the dissolved county councillors is a power to participate in an election for the Seanad. County councillors who, after inquiry, have been found to the satisfaction of the Minister not to be competent to carry out their ordinary business, have, under the Seanad Electoral (Panel Members) Act still power to take part in a Seanad election. That power is given them under Section 37 of that Act. That is a very remarkable power. It might easily mean that, with an election this year or next year, the Seanad would be elected in part by a new Dáil and in part by county councils some of which were elected in 1934, and others of which had been dissolved—some of them, like the Waterford County Council, for quite a long time.

That would appear on the face of it to be contrary to common sense. There is an old Irish proverb that says: "Tar eis a tuigtear gach beart"—in other words, it is only afterwards, you know what you have been doing, and that would seem to be the case in regard to what I might call the ludicrous provisions made for the election of this House when it works out that county councils that have been in operation eight or nine years, many of which have been dissolved, will still have power to elect members to this House. That seems to me to be contrary to common sense, and it is a very good example of how different parts of Government policy work one against the other. It also indicates, I think, how poorly planned were the provisions for election to this House. I do not know whether the Minister has adverted to that point, but I think he ought to give it consideration. I think that on the Committee Stage, we might have a few other points to make which would be relevant to that particular stage.

Mr. Hogan

The Minister said that he did not propose any fundamental change in the Principal Act, but it appears to me that this introduces such a change—that it is practically a new idea embodied in the Bill. The Minister says that it is quite simple. It simply gives, he says, the commissioner his correct place in the ranks of those who might be appointed as manager. First of all, he appoints him as manager. He gives him the function of manager and he gives him the status of manager. Then he puts him up against other officers, the C.E.O.'s, etc., of the various bodies because a pre-requisite of the appointment of a commissioner is that you must have the members of a county council removed from office. They must be removed before the commissioner is appointed. Therefore, if the secretary of the county council is a candidate for the position of manager, you have all the atmosphere created—that he allowed all the mismanagement and all the mistakes and all the errors to creep in while he was chief executive officer of that council and that therefore the Commissioners who are to make the appointment ought to be duly impressed by the fact. In other words, he is up against a superman selected by the Minister and sent down to settle the affairs. That is a serious position, I think, for the secretary of a county council, or for secretaries of boards of health who have certain rights in respect of these positions. Consider the atmosphere that has been created.

A commissioner is sent down to Clare to clear up the mess that has been allowed to accumulate. Removal of a body from office is a prerequisite to the appointment of a commissioner. It is relevant to inquire why the members of a county council are removed from office. If members of a county council are not removed from office, there can be no commissioner. Ergo, there cannot be a person with the right to go forward for the position of manager. Sometimes, a county council is removed from office because it acquiesced in the action of the Local Government Department in erecting a county hospital at a cost of £80,000 to cater for the needs of a county having about 60,000 or 70,000 inhabitants, that county hospital being completed, even to the blinds on the windows, before arrangements were made for a sewerage scheme or water supply. Because a county council makes itself vocal in respect of that mistake by the Local Government Department, is it to be removed from office? Is it a reason for removal that, in the county concerned, the dangerously ill have to be carried 30 or 40 miles for a major operation, under present transport conditions, and will not be permitted to have the operation in a district hospital? Is that a reason for the abolition of a county council and the appointment of a commissioner who will have the right to go forward for the position of manager? Or is it a reason that the county council is responsible for a reduction in the rates of 5d. in the £?

The Minister does not read a manual of manners or courtesy in abolishing county councils. He sets up an inquiry which costs the ratepayers £500 or £600 and he allows the body whose conduct and management was inquired into to carry on for eight months after the inquiry. He holds the inquiry in August and he abolishes the council by radio in March. In between, he allows that council to carry on what he considers its mismanagement and he allows it to strike the rate for the county. Then, he says on the radio: "Out you go; you are not able to manage the county; I have a superman for that and that superman will be entitled to compete with your chief executive officers for the position of county manager." Surely, it is justifiable to inquire if that is the administration the Local Government Department favours. Do they want to force upon the people the erection of a hospital, costing £60,000 or £80,000, without arranging for a sewerage or water scheme?

The Minister said that he knew that, in places where commissioners were appointed, the people were anxious to get them back. Did he take any cognisance of people protesting—without any attempt to organise a protest— against the dangerously ill being carried 30 or 40 miles when requiring immediate operation? Did he ask the people what they thought of that? If it is for voicing their opinions and the opinions of the people on these matters that county councils are removed from office, then the Minister and his colleagues and those of whom he is the political head should, on that reasoning, have a commissioner appointed in their places. I am not dealing with the matter in the abstract. The case I have made happened in respect of the County Council of Clare. I challenge the Minister to say that anything I have said is not in accordance with the facts. I challenge him to say that what I said in respect of the hospital is incorrect. I challenge him to say that what I have said in respect of the carrying of patients to the hospital and of the reduction of rates is incorrect, or that I was incorrect in saying that the council was abolished over the radio. I challenge him to test the feelings of the people of County Clare in respect of these things by whatever method he desires, and let the people decide.

He has appointed a commissioner. Of the gentleman appointed I know nothing. I am told that he is an amiable and capable man. I do not want to say one word against him, personally or officially. I know nothing about him but, from what I have heard, he is a capable officer. The man whom he has appointed to take over will have the functions and duties of manager. In three or four years, when the new council is appointed, he is going to put this man up for the managership against other officials of the county who have given 20 or 30 years' service to the public. He will say of these: "You have allowed these mistakes and this mismanagement to occur. By the abolition of the council I have created an atmosphere which is unfavourable to you. I am going to put this man up in that atmosphere and see what effect it will have on the commissioners." That is a local and national dictatorship. The provisions of this Bill should not get the sanction of this House, and I protest against them as vigorously as I can.

Mr. Douglas

The point made by Senator Hayes with regard to voting for members of this House requires some attention. The Minister has indicated that this Bill is largely intended to enable him to bring the Principal Act of 1940 into effect and to make certain changes necessitated by the fact that there cannot be an election. It seems to me that a Bill of that type should make some provision which would prevent ex-county councillors from voting for members of the Seanad. I have seen a list of the bodies abolished. I find that four of them were elected in 1928. These gentlemen, although in the opinion of the Government not fit to function as a county council—I do not refer to them personally but rather as a body— have been able to take part in the Seanad elections. If there is any further Seanad election before the local election they will be able to take part in it, although they were elected in 1928.

Mr. Counihan

And if they are still alive.

Mr. Douglas

Well, I will not go into the point as to what can be done by them if they are not. My suggestion to the Minister is that only those people who are actually functioning as councillors should be able to vote. I am drawing attention to four councils. One was elected in 1928 and has been abolished. Another was abolished, having been elected in 1930, and another was elected in 1934.

Mr. MacEntee

The Senator is not suggesting that members of councils elected in 1928 have the right to vote?

Mr. M. Hayes

Why not? They voted the last time.

Mr. Douglas

I am quite open to correction, but my suggestion is that only those actually functioning should have the right to vote. It looks to me, from my understanding of the Minister's speech and the Bill, that they would still be able to vote.

Mr. MacEntee

This is not a Bill to amend the Seanad Electoral Act.

Mr. Douglas

I appreciate that. My point is that it is a Bill to deal with the circumstances, and it seems to me that it would be quite correct to deal with the functions of these boards and that it would not be wrong to provide that, notwithstanding what is in the Seanad Electoral Act, these people should not have the right to vote in Seanad elections.

Mr. MacEntee

May I interrupt the Senator to say that I think the point is a very valuable one to have raised? But it is not a matter that could have been dealt with in the Bill, or rather it is not a matter that the Parliamentary draftsman would have agreed to have dealt with in the Bill.

Mr. M. Hayes

The Parliamentary draftsman can be got to agree to anything. Who knows that better than the Minister?

Mr. MacEntee

In the mazes of the law, one must have some order.

Mr. Douglas

I wanted to put the suggestion to the Minister. I think it would not be wrong to put such a provision in the Bill which is not a Principal Act. I think it would not be wrong to put in an amendment which would prevent these people from voting. It would not prevent new councillors from exercising their function. Therefore, I am not sure that it would be necessary to amend the Seanad Electoral Act. I put the point to the Minister for what it is worth and I would ask him to consider it.

There was another point I wanted to ask the Minister about. It is in regard to Section 3 of the Act. He does not give the reasons for providing that a pier or harbour authority or vocational committee, which may be a joint body, should be excluded, but it seems obvious to me he does not want to be in the position of appointing managers to these bodies. It has occurred to me that it is possible that a hospital might be included within the provisions of the Bill, if by any chance the board of a hospital had half of its members appointed by two or more rating authorities. I would like to have put in an amendment excluding hospital boards, because although I am in general sympathy with the managerial system, I would not like to see it introduced into hospital boards in this way, if by any chance such a board came under the definition contained in Section 3 of the Bill. I would like to have the boards of hospitals included in the exemptions.

Liam O Buachalla

In general, I have no objection to the provisions of this Bill. In fact, I think a very good case has been made for them especially having regard to the necessity for making every effort to get officers who will be familiar with the areas in which they will have to work and qualified, as far as possible, in the particular work and tasks they will have to undertake. At the same time, I should like to know to what extent qualifications in the national language will be taken into account in the making of these appointments. I do not mind at all the automatic, or almost automatic, appointment of existing county secretaries as county managers when the proposed Act is put into operation, but when this list, when this particular category, is exhausted, I think we should insist that the language shall be definitely a qualification for appointment to county managership. If it should happen that no candidate from the other various categories—that is, outside the county secretaries—is qualified in the national language, then the vacancy in question should be thrown open to general competition. I believe the time has come when those of us who speak the Irish language as the language of our homes, and, to a very great extent, make it the language of our business and of our professions, should have the fullest freedom to use the language when we come to deal with responsible public officials. It is hardly fair to expect an Irishman, especially at this hour of day, when he comes to deal with a responsible public official to wait until an interpreter is found, or, as generally happens, it is hardly fair that he should be referred to some junior member of the staff with whom he has to transact his business. I think the matter a very important one. It may be covered in the Principal Act to the extent that the Local Appointments Commissioners may have power to prescribe any conditions they think fit and they may not overlook the question of the language, but I hope the Minister will have something to say about it and reassure us on the matter.

Mr. O'Donovan

I think it a matter for regret that a local authority should be suspended, but, such having been the case, I suppose we have got to put up with it and accept the situation. The principal point I see in this measure relates to the ingress of local officials into the service. We have a central authority and a central Civil Service. We have also a local government civil service. This Bill initiates a transmission of officials from the central authority to the local authority. While the Civil Service is an immense organisation, the organisation of local officials is a small one in which there is no great opening for promotion. I agree that the county secretary is given the first preference. If he is not suitable, the secretary for the county board of health is selected. Then comes the existing commissioner who is both authority and local official. He is the boss and servant at the same time. If he has been there for any period, he has had an opportunity of becoming quite conversant with the technique of local administration and of acquiring a knowledge of the district which he is supervising. Unfortunately, he could put the county secretary, who, through no fault of his own had his local authority suspended, in an inferior position, as referred to already by Senator Hogan. It may be argued that, if there were a good county secretary, his local authority would not have been suspended. That may be true to some extent but, on the other hand, it may be entirely wrong. You may have the best county secretary whose county council was bad and he could not do anything to rectify it. Therefore, the argument does not hold that the county secretary must be bad or the chief of any local authority must be bad because the local authority is bad. One might as well say that, if a county council is good, the county secretary must be good as well. No aspersion should be cast upon a county secretary because the local authority was suspended.

I wish to protest publicly against this invasion of local service by the central authority, without reciprocity. A local official cannot enter the Civil Service and have his local service recognised by the central authority. Whether that is applied in this case, or not, I do not know. If it is not, there would be very few commissioners transferred or seconded from the central authority to act as commissioners. Very few of them would go forward for county management, if their service with the central authority did not count for pension purposes. This invasion of local authorities' service seems to be for no particular reason and caused through no fault of the local officials. Whatever happens the governing body, county councils or corporation, the officials should not be included in any way in the suspension.

When being transferred from the central Civil Service to take over a county council, a person must be well qualified to do the job. If an official of a local authority were put in the same position, he would be just as conversant with local authority administration and do the job just as well. The person who is privileged by being transferred from the central authority as commissioner of a county is not exactly omnipotent, but is at least local authority and local official embodied in one. A competent local official would do the job just as well but, by the transfer system, the central service is put on a plane above the local service. The local officials do not get the chance. There is a much lesser chance of promotion in the local service and, now that this invasion has occurred, it is very restricted. If there were reciprocity, where an official of a local authority might enter the Civil Service—as sometimes they do—and have the local service recognised, there would be some argument to be put up; but here the Civil Service official is put in a privileged position in his right to permanent appointment.

The other question of these suspended members still being qualified to act as electors for the Seanad seems to indicate a position which should not remain. If an amendment cannot be inserted in this Bill—as I presume it cannot—some amendment should be made to the Seanad Electoral Act.

Mr. Quirke

I merely rise to support the Bill, if for no other reason than that it makes it possible to have the services retained of at least a few individuals who have given excellent service to this country. I do not like to mention names, but I cannot help referring to Commissioner Meghen in Tipperary, South Riding, and Commissioner Moynihan in Kilkenny and Waterford. The Minister's statement as to the popularity of the commissioners would be borne out in those areas. Since they went there, they have administered the affairs of those councils without fear or favour, and the people for years past never have hesitated to express their appreciation of these men. Senator Hayes referred to the Minister's change of heart, which, I take it, is the same thing as change of mind.

Mr. M. Hayes

Change of coat, almost.

Mr. Quirke

A lot of people get on without a coat.

Mr. M. Hayes

Some get on without a mind.

Mr. Quirke

Even professors get along without a mind, but there would be difficulty in getting on without a heart. Assuming the professor has a mind and a heart as well as a coat, it would be reasonable to expect that he should not allow his imagination to run away with him. Senator Hayes referred to the change of mind of the Minister and pointed out that, at one period, the Minister spoke against the managerial system, and now comes along and for no apparent reason changes all that. Senator Hayes conveniently ignores the fact that it was necessary to appoint these managers in certain cases on account of the Blue-shirt organisation. I am not suggesting that the Senator had anything to do with it.

Mr. M. Hayes

Is that what happened in Clare?

Mr. Quirke

The Senator was not very far away from the point of organisation. Certain individuals attempted to set up a dictatorship in certain counties, and to counteract that the commissioners were appointed. They did their job well and the country owes them a debt of gratitude. Even those who took part foolishly in the campaign for no rates and no annuities —into which they were led by others— now realise they were on the wrong track and are now loudest in their praise of the individuals I thought it necessary to mention here—Commissioner Meghen and Commissioner Moynihan.

I missed most of Senator Hogan's speech, unfortunately, as I was called away. He referred to local dictatorship and national dictatorship. I take it he was referring to the affairs of the Clare County Council, of which I know practically nothing. I do not know anything that could be further away from dictatorship than the system of government we have here at the present time.

I think that Senator Hogan, in his less political moments, will agree on that point also. But, all through his speech, there runs a suggestion that this Bill is setting up a local dictatorship, although the whole object of the Bill is to prevent local dictatorships. If we are to have a dictatorship at all, or a semblance of dictatorship, surely it ought to be one over which the people as a whole have some control and not a series of little dictatorships in every parish of every county? There has been talk here about shoving in county managers—you can use that expression if you like—and one would imagine that it was proposed to put them in by the score.

Mr. Hogan

There are 14 already.

Mr. Quirke

I do not believe that there are 14, nor the half of 14.

Mr. Hogan

Look at the list.

Mr. Quirke

The fact is that there are only a few, and the suggestion is that the Minister is taking power to shove in other people whom he has in mind. I believe that suggestion is made merely for the sake of talk. The Minister has power to do a lot of things but no Minister and no Government would last very long if he did them. Such things might be done by people who are not Ministers now, and that is why people who were Ministers are not Ministers any longer, and why people who were not Ministers are Ministers now.

Mr. M. Hayes

Does Senator Quirke know that the bulk of these bodies, of which there are 34, have been suppressed since 1936? Is he not really giving too much credit to the Blue-shirts for the managerial system?

Mrs. Concannon

The County Management Bill, which this Bill seeks to amend had for its object the provision of a bulwark for democracy by saving it from some of the errors into which it had fallen. In the new system, a great deal will depend on the qualifications of the new county managers. The position is one of great importance. It is full of unheard-of possibilities for good deeds, so that it is imperative that we should have only first-class men. If the commissioners who proved themselves in the Civil Service, have done such good work in the counties to which they were appointed, after the county councils had been suppressed, then it is in the interests of local government and the interests of us all that the system should be extended. Local government comes home to us in a much more intimate way than central government and, if these men have proved their ability, I think it is a good idea to give them a further chance.

Mr. Honan

I supported the Principal Act in all its earlier stages and I have no reason to change my mind. Of course, there was a great deal of discussion in Clare about the abolition of the council, and as far as I could gather, it was not really the abolition of the council that incensed the members of the council, but the method by which it was done. They thought, at least, that there would be the courtesy of notice in a formal way instead of giving it over the wireless, which some of them did not hear at all. In fact, one councillor very tersely said of the abolition of the council that Crippen, the famous murderer, was caught by wireless, and the Clare County Council was abolished by wireless. So far as my opinion goes, I consider the managerial system is very efficient and quick working, particularly where it is assisted by the representatives of the people in the shape of an elected body. The point raised by Senator Douglas regarding the election of the Seanad by non-existent councils seems to be a good one, but Senator Douglas did not suggest to whom he thought the voting should be delegated. Should the whole number of votes be delegated to the commissioner?

Mr. Douglas

Only those who were still in existence could vote; it would be quite a small electorate.

Mr. Honan

I was beginning to think that it was time we should start becoming friendly with the commissioners if they had the power to administer all these votes! Certainly, it looks somewhat anomalous that non-existent councils should have votes for the selection of a Seanad. I have no fixed idea on the matter, but it might be something that could be looked into. I am merely expressing my opinion that I have always agreed with the managerial system and still agree with it.

Mr. O'Callaghan

I wish to say only that I think the managerial system is a good one so far as I know it, and where the managerial system is in operation, people appreciate it because the rates are low and the service to the poor is better. When the Minister was naming the different people who would be eligible for service as county manager I did not hear him mentioning the chief executive officers of county committees of agriculture. Some of these officers are men with university degrees in agriculture, and I think they would be very useful as county managers. I am, therefore, directing the Minister's attention to that question, and I would advise him to consider if these officers would not be very suitable men, because of the fact that their knowledge of agricultural problems would come in useful in the management of allotments and the taking over of farms from people who would not pay their rates.

Mr. Baxter

I wish to make a point or two on this Bill. I was against the original Act, and I am still against the whole managerial system. It would take a great deal to convince me that it is a wise system. I feel that it is going to destroy something locally which we should try to build up and preserve. Goodness knows, we see every day the necessity for better evidence of citizenship. I think you are going out with this Bill to destroy all sense of responsibility and of civic duty among our people. The House passed the other Bill, and it is now proposed to put this on top of it with certain qualifications. I was rather interested in an apparent disclosure made by Senator Quirke that this Bill is going to apply to two individuals, and that it was apparently introduced to put those individuals in the position of becoming the first commissioners in the areas where they had been functioning for some time. Senator Quirke gives these gentlemen a very strong recommendation. I do not know whether that would be accepted generally as a recommendation and I am wondering how much of it is political——

Mr. Quirke

None of it. I object to that statement about men who are not here to defend themselves. Nothing of what I said was a political recommendation, and none of these men can be accused of being political in any way.

Mr. Baxter

He indicated to the House the praise which he hears for these people. My opinion is that when Senator Quirke hears praise of these people, he hears it from his own political lieutenants.

Mr. Quirke

Not necessarily.

Mr. Baxter

That would make me suspicious, and it gives a rather unfavourable tone to the whole measure. The approach which Senator Quirke made to the question presents the Bill in a different light to me, and certainly not in as satisfactory a light, nor with the same flavour as it had when it was introduced originally.

That frankly is the impression he left upon my mind. I want to say that I have a great deal of sympathy with the point of view expressed by Senator O'Donovan. I think it is a perfectly sane and sensible and proper approach to this question.

Mr. Quirke

I have even praised Senator Baxter behind his back.

Mr. Baxter

That was when you could not help it.

Mr. Quirke

I could always help it.

Mr. Baxter

Perhaps I was entitled to it on this particular occasion in Senator Quirke's judgment. On the basis on which the Minister and his Department have been proceeding, under the Bill before the House now we could have a position created in which, before permanent managers are appointed in any county, every county council in the country could be abolished, and the Minister could have his own nominees in every county in a position of preference to be appointed as the first county managers over all the officials in the country. That is not a satisfactory position at all.

Mr. MacEntee

It does not happen to be the position under the Bill.

Mr. Baxter

Does it not?

Mr. MacEntee

No.

Mr. Baxter

Is not the commissioner in those areas given a position of preference over the other officials?

Mr. MacEntee

No. In most cases, he is put third, he is put after the county secretary and after the secretary to the board of health, and, if either of these is found suitable, whichever is found suitable will be appointed.

Mr. Baxter

If either is found suitable——

Mr. Quirke

It merely gives him a chance. That is all.

Mr. Baxter

Let us look at all this. We see county councils being abolished. Senator Quirke gave reasons why certain county councils were abolished. Of course they were not the real reasons at all. The lists of the dates on which county councils were abolished do not tally at all with the reasons given to the House by Senator Quirke as to why they were abolished.

Mr. Quirke

I said "certain county councils".

Mr. Baxter

No one is very clear as to why those county councils were abolished, and it is something about which there is a considerable degree of dissatisfaction.

Mr. MacEntee

None whatever.

Mr. Baxter

The Minister is one judge; I am another. There are many other people who have a different point of view. We have here certain powers vested in local authorities. They are not all the stupid, dishonest group of individuals that the Minister, when it suits him, will attempt to make out; they are not an inefficient lot who must be got rid of. We have not reached the stage where we have an exemplary Minister or Ministry of Local Government, and we will never reach it, because human institutions will have their human failings. The Minister is not perfect now, nor will he or his successors or his Department be perfect in the future. There is any amount of complaint down the country about the inefficiency of the Ministry. It may be because of its size, its unwieldiness, or because its activities have become so diversified in recent years. In any case, no one in the country—neither the Minister's opponents nor his supporters—is prepared to put the Ministry of Local Government on a pedestal, and, when the Ministry decides that a county council must be abolished, a great many people question both the wisdom and the justice of that decision, and the methods by which inquiries are held. My view is that, if local authorities are to be abolished in the future, the Minister ought to set up some more impartial method of determining the guilt or incompetence of those bodies than that to which we have been accustomed.

Mr. MacEntee

Than that which is provided for by the law that the Party which the Senator supports and of which he is now a member passed?

Mr. Baxter

I accept that.

Mr. MacEntee

With your approval.

Mr. Baxter

Not with my approval. I did not happen to be a member of the Party. The Minister knows that quite well.

Mr. MacEntee

You were only an outlier.

Mr. Baxter

I am not the least bit ashamed of my part then or now. I am prepared to stand over it with as much conviction of the justice of what I did as the Minister has in regard to his past, and I sought less, and took less, and got less than the Minister did for his part. We know the procedure up to date, but we are finding fault with it and, I think, rightly so. I think that it demands and needs overhauling. We heard from Senator Hogan a statement of what has happened in his county recently. The feeling I have about all this is that you cannot go on creating the impression in the minds of people elsewhere that the people in Dublin are doing things unjustly and unfairly, even if there were no other consideration than the fact that, in those days, if you are disturbing public confidence like that, you are disturbing the whole strength of your defensive position. Definitely, you are, and if there are people who think to the contrary, they are making a great mistake.

There is a necessity for a more impartial tribune to examine charges of incompetence or incapacity or corruption levelled against the local authorities before they are dissolved. I think the Minister would be doing the greatest service to local authorities and to local government generally if he decided that somebody other than the judges were to be the accusers. That is the method we have now. You have power in the Minister's hands to abolish a local authority, to send in a commissioner to administer the affairs of the area, and to put him on a level with the other people when the time comes to make a permanent appointment of county manager. Who makes the appointment? The Local Appointments Commissioners. There is no use in saying that you can get out of the minds of the people of this country— and there are very good reasons why they should think so—that it is not the most efficient and the most competent person that is appointed, but that political considerations are weighed when those appointments are to be made. If the secretary of a county council, who may have been a party to advising his council along certain lines and in the taking of certain decisions—he may have, in his judgment, done what he believed to be right, but that may not have harmonised with the views of the Ministry—is to be a candidate as against the other, I doubt very much whether that individual will be placed where he ought to be placed. I think there is in this procedure reason for grave disquiet.

Mr. Quirke

Is Senator Baxter accusing the Appointments Commissioners of being subject to political influence?

Mr. MacEntee

Of course he is.

Mr. Quirke

Senator Baxter cannot have it both ways. Either he is accusing them, or he should withdraw the statement.

Mr. MacEntee

He is coming out into the open now.

Mr. Quirke

Through you, Sir, I ask Senator Baxter again if he is accusing the Appointments Commissioners of political influence? If not, he should withdraw his statement.

Mr. Baxter

Of course, Sir, there is no political influence in this country. Senator Quirke's hands are very clean and the Minister's hands are very clean, and there is never any thought at all as to what a man's politics are when he comes up for appointment in this country.

Cathaoirleach

I suggest that Senator Baxter keep to the terms of the Bill.

Mr. Baxter

I will, if I am not interrupted, but anybody who interrupts me will get an answer. I am very competent to give the answers because I have personal experience.

Mr. Quirke

I suggest that it is very important for this country that this matter should be cleared up. It is a very serious matter that it should go through this House without challenge that the Appointments Commissioners are subject to political influence, and that appointments are made because the commissioners are interfered with by politicians. I think Senator Baxter, in the interests of the country and of this House, should withdraw that statement—not because it pleases me that he should withdraw it. He knows it is not a fact.

Mr. Baxter

One way of determining that would be to set up an impartial tribunal to inquire into it, and I think Senator Quirke would not like some of the disclosures.

Mr. MacEntee

That is a repetition of the statement.

Mr. Quirke

I suggest that it is worse than a repetition.

Cathaoirleach

The Senator must not proceed on those lines, nor make such a suggestion regarding the Appointments Commissioners.

Mr. Baxter

I have not very much more to say with regard to the Bill. I am satisfied that, as far as the country is concerned——

Cathaoirleach

The Chair would ask the Senator to withdraw any suggestion there may have been regarding political considerations influencing appointments within the scope of the Appointments Commission.

Mr. Baxter

If the Cathaoirleach asks me to withdraw, I will do so. So far as this Bill is concerned, I think it is like its predecessor. Perhaps that is because the other measure has gone before it, but so far as these two measures are regarded as tending to give us better administration in the country, I am quite satisfied that we are not going to get anything of the kind. I think we are not going to get administration at all. We are going to get more of the kind of thing we have been having—more of the kind of thing where you must belong to one type of mind or mentality, where you must serve a particular mind in a particular way. You must not have a mind of your own. You are not going to have liberty. If you want to live, you have got to be completely and absolutely ready to fall into the habit of accepting everything. You must put your conscience from you and accept everything whether it is right or wrong for local administration.

Cathaoirleach

These remarks are quite irrelevant. The Senator will appreciate that.

Mr. Baxter

My point is that we are dealing with a Bill amending a County Management Bill. That County Management Bill has made certain provisions with regard to the management of the affairs of local authorities and, with all respect, I think I am entitled to argue that this Bill, far from being of benefit to local administration, is bringing about a position in which in fact we will not have local administration at all. It simply means that so far as getting local people to administer local affairs is concerned under this measure that will now cease to exist. We are creating a situation in the country in which dictatorship will be absolute and complete. So far as people having liberty and democratic rights—about which there has been all this talk—is concerned that will be absolutely finished.

We are in the position where the powers who have their hands on the machine here will be strengthened down the country as well as here. You are strengthening that machine gradually every time you make it possible for some one from the central machine to go down and take control from the local authorities. That may be done from the point of view of the people in the centre of the capital, but from the point of view of the people who are down the country, it is definitely bad.

It is very very bad, and it is going to create a situation where no man of character, no man who is disinterested, will come in and play his part, and become part of this all-powerful machine where the independent view and the independent man count for nothing, will not be listened to and in fact will not be tolerated. I think that is very bad. I think it has brought other nations down. It is not the right way to proceed, because you are destroying the whole basis of citizenship. I say there is grave disquiet at the Minister's methods and the methods of his predecessor in respect of the removal of functions from local authorities.

Mr. Quirke

With all respect, I submit that we are discussing amending legislation and that the Senator is out of order.

Mr. MacEntee

Senator Baxter would be in order on the Principal Bill but not on this Bill.

Mr. Baxter

I believe I am in order so far as the suspension of local authorities is concerned. It is the practice of the Minister not only in this House but in the other House to dictate to the Chair and to say the remarks of particular speakers are not in order. I resent that. I have a perfect right to argue that this Bill makes it possible for the Minister to dissolve county councils. There is a whole list of county councils which have been dissolved over a very considerable period, but apparently the Minister does not want that, or the methods of ordering their dissolution, discussed.

Cathaoirleach

The dissolution of local authorities is not really relevant to this Bill.

Mr. Baxter

Then I put this question. There was a local authority dissolved in Clare the other day. Will the commissioner who is going to administer the affairs of the Clare County Council be in a position to go up against the secretary of the Clare County Council or Board of Health as a competitor for the permanent post of county manager or not? If I could get an answer on that question, I think it would clear the air as to whether I am in order or not. If that be true and the commissioner is enabled to take this post, I say the Minister has only to proceed to dissolve—for some reasons, which, to my mind, are not well stated and when they are stated are stated from one side and not from the other—a number of other local authorities. I presume he would then have Senator Quirke to come along and tell us that they were dissolved because this Bill had special reference to them—that the Bill was introduced for the reason Senator Quirke says it is introduced.

Mr. Quirke

I did not suggest any such thing. I never suggested any such reason for the introduction of the Bill.

Mr. Baxter

I gathered from Senator Quirke that he did. He mentioned two commissioners we know of in the two counties. He gave them a high character. I know nothing against them, but he gave us to understand that these were the people who were going to come in to be apparently the managers.

Mr. Quirke

I said that the people would have a chance of retaining their services.

Mr. Baxter

You spoke so as to leave in my mind anyway the impression that that was the main reason for the introduction of this Bill.

Mr. Quirke

Nonsense.

Cathaoirleach

I suggest that this point has been sufficiently discussed.

Mr. Baxter

We are creating a situation where any county council in this country can be dissolved and the Minister's nominees put in control. I say such a position will be very bad for local administration. So far as the people down the country are concerned, it is not a position they should tolerate developing here. If affairs are to be conducted from the point of view of people living in Dublin, I say it is something we should not accept. I say that that principle is inherent in the Bill and because of that, I am against it.

Mr. Goulding

I do not wish to follow Senator Baxter into all his reasons for opposing this Bill. I want to say, and perhaps I am going to be out of order, too, that the original Bill was brought in because it was considered necessary in the interests of public business. In the past few years, the business of local authorities has increased enormously. Even years ago, I, as a member of a local body, found it almost impossible to complete an agenda at any meeting. I have attended meetings of county councils which lasted for hours and hours, and which had to be terminated with the business uncompleted. The result was that public business fell into arrears and could not possibly be effectively carried out. A county manager or a county commissioner is on the job all the time and it is nonsense to say, as Senator Baxter has said, that democratic institutions are being destroyed. They are not.

The democratic principle remains all the time. The permanent official to be appointed will act in the role of skilled adviser, more or less. He is free to carry out essential business in the absence of the elected members of the public body, but that does not prevent the elected members from attending meetings and suggesting ways and means of carrying out certain essential works. There is one criticism which I should like to make. It would, I think, be a good idea if those individuals were not permanently appointed to any particular county, but were rather subject to removal from one county to another. Mr. A., who is appointed to a certain county, may carry out his work very efficiently and effectively. Mr. B., appointed to another county, may not be quite so effective. It might be better if an exchange were made between these men. Mr. B. might be more effective in Mr. A's. county and Mr. A. might carry out the work in Mr. B's. county better than his predecessor did. I throw out that suggestion for what it is worth. It is possible that men, permanently appointed in this fashion, might be tempted to "slack." A man might say that, being permanently appointed, he could take things easily. He might not like to be transferred to another county and the possibility of that transfer might keep him up to the mark and he might do his work more efficiently. That suggestion may not be very acceptable to the gentleman concerned, but it might provide a very effective check on careless management.

Mr. Brennan

I missed portion of the discussion on this Bill, but it seems to me, from the part of it I have heard, that it had reference to the Principal Act. I should like to remind the House that this question of the appointment of county managers has been in contemplation for a considerable time. A number of such appointments has already been approved by the Dáil and by this House. Under present circumstances, it would be interesting for the House to know when the proposed appointments are likely to be made effective. Transport facilities are bad and are getting much worse. As a result, attendance at meetings of local bodies is becoming more difficult. Because of transport difficulties, there is a prospect that some of these meetings will fall through for lack of a quorum.

A further result may be that it will not be possible to pay contractors, road workers and other persons in the employment of local authorities the money due to them. In one way or another, local administration would be seriously prejudiced. As I understand the legislation on the subject, the appointment of county managers would get over that difficulty and would be the only method of ensuring that payments to contractors, workers and others would not be held up, and that local administration would not be prejudiced. I am afraid that that is the only solution of these difficulties and, when the Minister is replying, it would be of interest to all of us to get some information on the point to which I have referred.

Mr. MacEntee

With regard to the question put by Senator Brennan, as soon as this Bill is through, assuming the House passes it, steps will be taken to get the Local Appointments Commissioners to proceed to the selection of county managers. When these steps will be completed I cannot, of course, say. That will depend on the machinery of the Local Appointments Commissioners. I agree with the Senator that one of the reasons which make it imperative that this Bill should be passed is the difficulty being experienced by members of local authorities in attending meetings of the local bodies.

A number of other points was raised on the Bill and, perhaps, I had better deal with them seriatim. The point raised by Senator Hayes and Senator Douglas in relation to the Seanad electoral franchise is an important one. Yet, in connection with it, we have to remember that, if we were to decide that members of local authorities who had been removed from office would be automatically disqualified from membership of the Seanad electoral college, we should be held, perhaps, to be not merely disfranchising them as individuals, but also disfranchising the areas which they represent. While it is true that local authorities have been dissolved, it is not to be assumed from that that they have been dissolved because of corruption, or that each and all of the members were unfit for office. It merely means that, collectively, the members have not discharged the functions and duties of the local authority with proper efficiency and attention. A man may be a failure as a member of a collective assembly, but, when it comes to a question of giving an individual opinion in relation to the choice of membership of this House, he may be as competent to give it as any member of this House. Judging by some of the speeches we heard to-day, I think most of the members of the dissolved authorities would be even more competent to express an opinion of that sort than some members of this House.

In regard to Section 3, Senator Douglas pointed out that we excluded pier and harbour authorities and vocational education committees from the terms of the section. The reason is that pier and harbour authorities and vocational education committees do not come within the scope of local government at all. Pier and harbour authorities are under the control of the Minister for Industry and Commerce and vocational education committees are under the control of the Minister for Education. That does not apply to hospitals and other public institutions, such as drainage boards and development boards of one kind and another, which do fall within the framework of local government, as we know it, and would, therefore, be properly dealt with in the manner prescribed in Section 3 of the Bill if the necessity for such action were to arise.

Mr. M. Hayes

The answer to Senator Douglas' question is that hospitals may be included?

Mr. MacEntee

Yes, because they are part of the local machinery. Senator O'Donovan suggested that the appointment of commissioners put local secretaries in an inferior position. In so far as a local commissioner is able to give his whole-time attention to a local authority for whom he acts, perhaps it does. But, so far as appointments to permanent county managerships go, this Bill does not put local secretaries into a position which is inferior to that of the commissioner acting on behalf of the members of the county council or board of health. On the contrary, it preserves the existing right by which the county secretary has to be considered for appointment as county manager in priority to any other candidates for the post.

In that regard, perhaps I might try to clear up a misapprehension which I think some Senators are under in regard to this question of priority. It is not the case that there will be competition for a particular post of county manager as between the county secretary and the commissioner. These two officers will be considered in a certain order. The county secretary comes first. He is considered and if he is suitable according to the standards which have been laid down by the Local Appointments Commission as being applicable to the post then he will be appointed and no consideration will be given to the county commissioner at all. This position will not hold that there will be before the Local Appointments Commission at one and the same time two candidates one of whom is the county secretary and the other of whom is the county commissioner acting for the local authority.

There will only come before the Local Appointments Commission one at a time the persons who have been given priorities in this Bill and the Commissioners will consider these persons in the order which has been prescribed in the statute until they have found a person who is suitable. They will consider the county secretary and if because of age or, perhaps, health or other reasons they decide he is not suitable for the county managership, then in general they will proceed to the secretary of the board of health. If he is not found suitable because of some defect or lack of qualification, only then will they consider a commissioner acting for a county council, if such commissioner chooses to be a candidate for a post. The post may not be sufficiently attractive for many people who are administering the affairs of councils and they may decide not to go forward. If the Local Appointments Commissioners do not find the county commissioner is suitable, they will then proceed to consider the secretaries of county councils other than the county council for which the appointment has to be made.

If among the remnant of those who have not secured appointment in their own county there is no one found suitable, the commissioners will proceed to consider the residue, if I may say so, of the secretaries of the boards of health. It is probable, I think, that if a county secretary or a secretary of a board of health does not secure appointment in his own county he is unlikely to secure appointment at all. The post will then be thrown open to the best men available.

Mr. Honan

May I ask the Minister a question? When a county commissioner is appointed, it is not proposed that the services of the existing secretary be discontinued?

Mr. MacEntee

Oh, no.

Mr. Honan

Does he continue?

Mr. MacEntee

Yes.

Mr. Honan

Then these people are in a position in many cases that they would lose financially by being appointed manager?

Mr. MacEntee

Yes. I had just made that point. The position may not be attractive enough for existing county commissioners. There is no foundation for the suggestion which was made, I think, solely by Senator Baxter that, for some unworthy reason or another, the Minister for Local Government was trying to foist his creatures on local authorities and county councils as county managers. I think I have shown, at any rate, that so far as the county secretaries are concerned, there is nothing in this Bill which in any way makes them inferior to county commissioners, or which in any way reduces their chances of appointment as county managers when they happen to be suitable for the post.

Senator O'Donovan also says in this connection that there should be reciprocity as between the Civil Service and the service of the local authorities. He said that when local officials enter the Government service, their past service as officers of local authorities is not counted for pensionable purposes in the Civil Service, and I think he implied as against that that members of the Civil Service transferred to the service of local authorities had their past service counted for pensionable purposes. That is not the position.

Mr. O'Donovan

Might I explain that the position as explained by the Minister is quite clear to me. I was not objecting on that point at all. I pointed out that in the case of the transfer to local authorities of central civil servants their service in the central Civil Service was not recognised. Personally I would be glad that they would leave the field to the local officials.

Mr. MacEntee

The position is that as the law now stands any civil servant entering the service of local authorities will not have his service counted for pensionable purposes. On the other hand, if the servant of a local authority enters the Civil Service and happens to have at the time of that entry more than ten years' service with the local authority, then that service can be considered for pensionable purposes. At the moment at any rate, the servants of local authorities in regard to the question of pensionable service appear to have better treatment. Senator Honan said so far as he could gather there was no very great criticism of the dissolution of the Clare County Council and the Clare local authority. What was objected to was that they were dissolved by wireless. That is not the position. The position in regard to local authorities is that the members are removed from office when the Minister makes an Order. The making of this Order is communicated in the ordinary way to the Press Bureau for transmission to the Press and for the information of all the ratepayers under the jurisdiction of the local authority concerned. As a matter of course, when it goes to the Press Bureau, it is also sent to the editor of the news bulletin of Radio Eireann and the item is broadcast as a matter of news in which the ratepayers of the area concerned have a particular interest and not as a mode of announcing to the members of the county council or local authority that they are being removed from office.

In regard to notifying the members who have been removed from office, that is a matter which has been giving me some concern. I should like, if I could, before the news has broken to the public, to give some prior intimation to the persons concerned that they are no longer members of the county council; but there is no way by which I can do it, for the reason that the moment the Order is made, removing such members from office, they lose all official status and the only person to whom this information can be communicated is the executive officer of the local authority, to whom it is communicated at the earliest possible moment. I cannot write to a person who is no longer in office, saying that I have abolished him, and I do not think his resentment would be any the less if he heard it from me in a formal letter, than it is when he hears it from the secretary, of his county council or local authority. Therefore, I hope it will be appreciated that it is not for lack of consideration of the members of the local authority concerned that I have not been able to find any way in which I can give them prior notice of what it is necessary to do.

Mr. M. Hayes

Surely they could be given notice of what the Minister is going to do.

Mr. Hogan

Respecting the method, could the Minister not make the notice coincide with a meeting of the county council which is held the day previously? Could he not send it to the chief executive officer, to notify the county council immediately?

Mr. MacEntee

Would the Senator just consider that? I am to invite all these county councillors to leave their own personal concerns and travel 20 or 25 miles to a county council meeting, to be presented, when they arrive, with the bombshell that they are removed from office.

Mr. Hogan

There was a meeting of the county council the previous day. Notice could have been sent to the secretary, to be communicated to the meeting on that day.

Mr. MacEntee

They could discharge no business; they would be brought on a fool's errand.

Mr. Hogan

They were there.

Mr. MacEntee

They were there the day previously, and on that day at least they did something. If you consider the pertinent aspects of this matter, I think you will agree that there is no formal machinery provided to communicate with them. The Minister must act strictly in accordance with the Act and cannot go outside it. The best and most expeditious way to communicate to everybody concerned the fact that the members of the local authority have been removed from office is the one that has been adopted now.

I cannot see how some of the matters raised in this debate properly arise on this Bill. There is no question of amending, extending, or interfering in any way with the power and duty which the Minister already has of ordering an investigation into the affairs of a local authority, and if, in his judgment — and only in his judgment — he thinks it necessary to do so, to remove the members of the authority from office and appoint a commissioner to administer its affairs. Some very extraordinary statements have been made here. Senator Hogan has said we abolished the Clare County Council because a new hospital was built for which a water supply or sewerage scheme had not been provided, and that, because the Department had in some way failed to do its duty in this regard, we abolished the county council. The Department is neither the sanitary authority nor the board of health for Clare, nor has it the immediate responsibility for providing Clare with those institutions necessary for the public health; but if the facts are as stated by Senator Hogan — to meet him on his own ground — and if the new county hospital was built at a cost of £80,000 or £90,000, without any proper provision for water supply or sewerage scheme, and if all the bodies concerned in the provision of such essential services for the hospital, after a number of years negotiating and being urged by the Department to discharge their duty and exercise their functions in that regard had failed to do so, surely if there were one thing which would justify the dissolution of all those bodies it was the very fact which Senator Hogan has brought to the notice of the Seanad. I am not for a moment accepting that the Clare County Council or the Clare Board of Health was abolished for that reason. In fact, the grounds on which they were abolished were stated in my letter to the person who was appointed as commissioner, and those grounds are known to the people of Clare. With a knowledge of the facts contained in that letter before them, Senator Honan —who is, I think, just as competent to voice the opinion of the people of Clare in this matter — has stated that there has been no criticism of the abolition of the Clare County Council or any of those bodies, but merely of the manner in which the announcement was made.

Mr. Hogan

I do not think Senator Honan said that.

Mr. M. Hayes

He surely did not.

Mr. MacEntee

The reasons for the abolition of the Clare local bodies were stated in my letter. Anyone who reads the letters in question will have to admit that the grounds were coercive. The finances of the county council had got into such a state that the local bodies were living from hand to mouth, getting in the early part of the year moneys from week to week to enable them to carry on. The rates were not being collected, and heavy arrears in regard to cottage rents were uncollected, so heavy indeed that the Department had to come to the definite decision that notwithstanding the fact that there is and was grave need for the erection of at least 500 additional cottages in Clare, that all building be stopped in Clare until the situation was cleared up. I do not want to go into all the delays which have taken place in providing the necessary hospitals in the county, nor the delays which took place in extending the mental hospital, nor the absolute disregard of the regulations which the Department has made from time to time for the proper conduct of the mental hospital.

Mr. Hogan

Why?

Mr. MacEntee

The fact of the matter is that Clare has lost, and the people of Clare have lost, considerable sums by reason of the conditions which had been allowed to grow up there and, in any event, this country is in such a situation to-day that we cannot afford to have any more laxity, or any reluctance on the part of local authorities to carry out their manifest duties in regard to the administration of local affairs, and the whole system, so far as we are concerned, has got to be tightened up.

I was going to say something about Senator Baxter, but I do not know whether it is worth while wasting time upon Senator Baxter or on what Senator Baxter says. He tells us that there is grave disquiet throughout the country with the manner in which certain local authorities have been treated, and the manner in which the Minister is exercising his powers to dissolve such local bodies as fail to discharge their duties to the people who have elected them. I do not know what means Senator Baxter has of sounding public opinion in this country. I do not know from what quarters, or in what way, this public disquiet has reached him, as he says. If there is one person who has shown himself to be completely out of touch with public opinion in this country, it is Senator Baxter. He has never, since the year 1927, been able to secure election in any constituency in this country, although he was a candidate in many of them. He resides, I believe, in County Cavan. What does he know about public opinion in County Dublin in relation to the abolition of Dublin County Council?

Where has he heard any widespread disquiet in County Dublin about the abolition of the County Council? Has he gone to the ratepayers, who find their rates in some cases reduced by 4/6 in the £ as compared with last year, under a commissioner who was appointed only six months ago? Has he heard of any public disquiet from them? Has he heard any suggestion that the commissioner appointed to administer the affairs of Dublin County has been influenced by political considerations or by any other consideration except the one I put before him and that was to clean up administration in that county, and to ensure that every officer did his work honestly and fairly by all the citizens?

Has he heard any suggestion from the ratepayers of Dublin City that I acted wrongly in abolishing the board of assistance after the superintending officer swore that public moneys were being given out in the form of public assistance without any proper investigation being made into the circumstances of the applicant and that the only thing that really determined how this £280,000 of money taken from the people should be distributed was the statement made on the application form, which was accepted without any due investigation or inquiry. That was sworn by one of the superintending relieving officers of the Dublin Board of Assistance, and does Senator Baxter think that in those circumstances I had any option, having read that sworn testimony, but to abolish the board which had permitted that state of affairs to go on? Has he heard in the City of Dublin any expression of disquiet because that board has been dissolved, and because three whole-time people have been put in for the purpose of reorganising this whole system and trying to see whether they can find some machinery whereby people who are really in need of relief will be relieved, and whereby, also, people not in need of relief will not be permitted to live in idleness at the expense of the hard-working citizens of this city.

I should like to say in that connection that I do not wish it to be apprehended that I hold the members of the Dublin Board of Assistance blameworthy, fully blameworthy, for all that has happened. The fact of the matter is that we had a system adopted for parish relief, for the relief of individuals well-known to all members of the community in which they lived, where the circumstances were that every item came under the review of the people of the parish who were paying for them. We have had that system expanded to meet the needs of a community of fully 500,000 people, and it is quite impossible, in my view, to apply the old principles of administration to the new set of circumstances, and I feel that it would be impossible for any body of voluntary individuals to have administered public assistance in the City of Dublin any more efficiently than the old board of assistance did. But having come to that conclusion, what was I to do? Was. I to allow the existing out-of-date system to continue, a system under which, as I have said, the responsible officers of the board— I am not saying they did swear it was quite impossible — swore that there had been no proper supervision over the distribution of outdoor relief? Was I to allow that to continue, or was I to do as I did, put into office three competent persons, each of them peculiarly qualified, to deal with special aspects of this problem, ask them to take over the affairs of the Dublin Board of Assistance and see if they could not evolve a system which would stop the abuses which had grown up and which would prevent their emergence in future?

These are the circumstances under which these public authorities have been abolished, and, without producing a scintilla of evidence, Senator Baxter, whose special position put him more out of touch with the public opinion of this country than most men here, comes along and says that the action of the Minister in dealing with these known abuses has been the occasion of grave disquiet in the public mind. On the contrary, so far as one's personal post can prove it, the action which I have taken in abolishing not merely the Dublin bodies, but the other bodies, has met with general acceptance by the citizens. I have received letters congratulating me on taking these actions, because as the writers of the letters tell me, they know from their knowledge of the position that the steps were fully warranted and were timely. Even to-day, if Senator Baxter had been reading his newspaper, the Irish Independent, which carried an editorial yesterday couched in very much the same terms as he has spoken in to-day, he would see this morning leaded-out, a demand on the part of responsible citizens in one town of this country for a public inquiry, and for the abolition of the local authority, and it is a memorial which is signed by a considerable number of substantial ratepayers of all creeds and all classes and all sections of political opinion.

As I said in the beginning, the real trouble in relation to the appointment of commissioners in any county is first of all the difficulty of finding persons who are versed in local government law and have experience of local administration, and getting them to carry on. The next difficulty is, when you have found such a person and have appointed him as commissioner, to try to discontinue his post, because the moment it appears that the commissioner's term of office is coming to an end representations are made from all quarters to continue him in office. Our predecessors, I think, appointed commissioners in Kells and Trim and a number of other small towns, and we have had to continue them in office because the local people wanted them. Is that evidence of this widespread public disquiet to which Senator Baxter has referred? As I have said, this Bill does not in any way propose to interfere with or expand or amend or curtail the present powers of the Minister to order a sworn inquiry, and, if necessary, on the evidence that that sworn inquiry elicits, to take whatever steps he may think fit to improve the administration of local government in the area covered by the inquiry. Perhaps I have been a little out of order and not strictly relevant, but the matters were raised and I think they had to be dealt with.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for the date of the next sitting of the House.