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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Jul 1945

Vol. 30 No. 5

Johnstown Castle Agricultural College Bill, 1945—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

At the beginning of last year, intimation was received by the Government from Mr. Maurice Victor Lakin, of County Wexford, that he proposed to make a gift to the nation of the entire property of Johnstown Castle, with certain minor exclusions which will be referred to, to be used as a lay agricultural college. On getting this offer, the Government was very glad to accept the gift, and on referring the matter to its legal advisers for the necessary agreements and so on, we were advised that legislation was necessary as a consequence of acceptance of the gift. That is why this Bill comes before you. Johnstown Castle is well known as one of the historic residences of Ireland. It is a very imposing structure, and has been visited always as a place of interest and a place of historic associations. I believe it is a place of architectural interest to those interested in that subject. The lands attached to it comprise about 1,000 acres, all held in fee simple, save for one small piece held on lease. The lands are admirably situated for an agricultural college. There are about 600 acres of arable land, typical Wexford land. It is the type of land that must be tilled in order to keep it in good condition, like most of County Wexford, and it will be suitable on that account in particular for an agricultural college.

There are about 300 acres under timber some of which is mature, and about 100 acres which is more or less waste, but which we believe we can reclaim. This will be a particularly interesting experiment for the students of the college. The grounds are very attractive and the gardens which are walled in are large and well stocked. It will be possible, I think, to maintain a fairly substantial horticultural college as well as an agricultural college.

I need hardly stress to the Seanad the necessity for more accommodation for agricultural colleges. We have more applications from boys in the country than we can satisfy at the moment. We have three State colleges at Clonakilty, Athenry and Ballyhaise. University College has a somewhat similar college at Glasnevin, and there are four colleges under religious control—by the Salesian Fathers in Limerick and Meath, by the Franciscan Brothers at Mountbellew, and one under the Diocesan Clergy in Monaghan. All of these are not sufficient for our needs at the moment and Johnstown Castle will certainly be a great help. I am sure the Seanad will realise that the gift is a very valuable one to this nation and I would like to say that we appreciate the gesture of Mr. Lakin and of Mrs. D.V. Jefferies of Carrigbourne, County Wexford, who has an interest in the lands and has been associated with Mr. Lakin in making the gift. I want to mention two or three conditions because the Senators may be rather puzzled about some of them. There are a few conditions mentioned in the Bill. They relate mainly to making provision for existing employees on the estate. We have dealt with the employees on the national stud farm. No condition was made by the British about that, but here we have undertaken with the donor to see that the employees are treated in a special way with regard to pension, retiring allowances and so on. We have also undertaken to preserve the general ornamental condition of the grounds and the right of way to the private cemetery where members of the Fitzgerald family have been buried for the last 50 years, reserving fishing and sporting rights to the donor and refunding the death duties on the estate only.

I ask Senators to keep that in mind because there has been a misundering on that question. There is no question of Mr. Lakin getting away with all the death duties on the property inherited. Only the death duties on this particular estate will be refunded. There were certain other small matters. The Bill contains sections providing for the implementation of these conditions and to enable the property to be used as a lay agricultural college. There was a form of agreement signed in the beginning for the transfer of the property. This is attached to the Bill by way of schedule and a copy of the conveyance by which the property will be conveyed is also attached. The Bill is implementing the agreement made by Mr. Lakin and the Government and providing for the conditions that Mr. Lakin asked for at the time he was making the gift.

I congratulate the Minister on having acquired Johnstown Castle as an agricultural college. I am sure it will make a useful addition to the institutions in which specialised agricultural education is given and I would like to join in appreciation of the generosity of the former owners in presenting this estate to the State for such an important public purpose. There is not much to be said on the specific matter of this Bill but perhaps I would be in order in making some general remarks about agricultural education and the need for emphasising it.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Not on this Bill.

Would I be in order in pointing out the relative importance which is attached to primary, secondary and agricultural education with reference to this valuable addition, what I regard as a very limited addition, for agricultural education?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I do not think the Senator can deal with the general question on this Bill.

Will you, Sir, give me a certain amount of rope before you hang me? I should like to put the matter in its proper perspective. I should like to point out that for an agricultural country we do not spend an awful lot of money in providing for agricultural education. What is still more important, very few of our people, especially very few of our farmers, are, in fact, able to acquire a whole-time agricultural education in a residential college. There are 450,000 children attending primary schools, 35,000 pupils attending secondary schools——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am sorry to interrupt the Senator, but that does not arise on the Bill.

Well, the fact that we hope to add perhaps 40 new pupils to a number which does not exceed 200, seems to be significant in itself, but it is still more significant in comparison with the large number of people who acquire a non-agricultural education and in relation to the terrific necessity there is for extending agricultural education in general. If you think, however, that this question does not arise on the Bill, all that is left to me is to sit down.

After the experience of Senator Johnston I do not quite know how anything I may have to say will be treated, but I do know that under Section 3, the Minister is going to establish here a lay agricultural college, and perhaps I would be in order if I said that while I, of course, join with the Minister whole-heartedly in expressing the gratitude of the House for a very generous gift by the personal representatives of the Fitzgerald family, at the same time I think I might be permitted to say that it is unfortunate that we had to wait for such a generous gift before further extending our provision for lay agricultural colleges such as are visualised in Section 3. So far as the college which it is proposed to set up under this Bill is concerned, perhaps the Minister would give us a little more detailed information as to the particular type of college, or the particular manner in which he proposes to work this college. Is it intended that the agricultural college to which he refers will be carried on in exactly the same way as similar colleges, or is it intended that there shall be some special type of agricultural research carried on here? I see, Sir, that you are looking rather uncomfortable, but I would submit with all respect that within the ambit of Section 3 we are entitled to inquire on the Second Reading the type of agricultural college that will be set up on the farm that is being acquired under this Act.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator is not in order in pursuing that question. This Bill merely deals with the taking over of Johnstown Castle. The question of what is going to be done with the college might arise on a later stage.

With all respect I would call your attention to the wording of sub-section (1) of Section 3:—

"As soon as conveniently may be after the passing of this Act, the Minister shall establish on the Estate a lay agricultural college and may for that purpose do all such things as he considers necessary."

I would suggest that the things he considers necessary may vary very much according to the type of agricultural college that is going to be established. I should like to suggest to the Minister certain things he should do and should consider necessary. I would put that submission to you, Sir. I do not want to go against your ruling but I think you will agree that I am entitled to proceed on those lines.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I think that is a matter for the future after the Minister has decided how the college is to be worked. I do not think the Senator can now discuss future administration.

The title of the Bill would show whether it is in order or not.

Mr. Patrick O'Reilly

Having regard to the fact that it is under Section 3 of this Bill that the Minister proposes to decide what form the college shall take, I think that Senator Sweetman is entitled to inquire what line the Minister proposes to take.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That particular section can be discussed on the next stage.

I am perfectly satisfied so long as the question is kept open and that I can speak on it at some stage. There is one small point the Minister might deal with, having regard to the provisions of the agreement. He referred to the death duties which were being paid to the State. Those are, I gathered, duties that have been paid in respect of the property which we are getting as a gift. I am going to ask the Minister a very technical question: has the property included in the gift been excluded for aggregation because it would be unfair on the family not to have it so excluded. Perhaps the Minister could not answer that question just now.

I could not.

I want to say a special word on the subject. I think the Minister knows beforehand what I am going to say. I want to deal with the question of economic research in relation to agricultural teaching—what is generally known as machinery for ascertaining costs of production.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That does not come within the ambit of the Bill.

Can I not argue——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

At a later stage, the Senator will get an opportunity.

I understood that points of principle were debated on Second Reading.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The principle of the Bill is the acceptance of the gift of the Johnstown Castle estate by the nation.

On a point of order, is it not permissible on Second Stage to raise mttters which one feels should have been included but which are not included in the Bill? One may not raise these matters on the Fifth Stage.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Yes. If, however, Senators begin to deal with the general question of agricultural education on the Bill I think we would only lose sight of the main purpose of the Bill.

With all due respect, I never knew that there was in Parliamentary practice any objection to raising points that might be called points of principle on Second Reading. Certainly there has been an objection to raising Second Reading points on Committee but, in deference to your ruling, I shall bring this matter up on the section.

Perhaps it might shorten the discussion if I were permitted to say that, as far as this farm is concerned, it will be an agricultural college like Clonakilty and our other colleges. We do intend to have as well a research department and a much larger horticultural school than in the other colleges. So it will differ in two respects from the other colleges by having a larger horticultural school and by having an agricultural research station there.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

When is it proposed to take the next stage of the Bill?

I suppose next Wednesday would suit.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 25th July, 1945.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The next item is No. 5 on the Order Paper— Local Government (Remission of Rates) Bill, 1945—Second Stage.

Might I suggest, Sir, that Nos. 5 and 6 on the Order Paper will only take a short time and that, possibly, we might be able to get through both of them by 6.15, and, therefore, we should sit on to dispose of them?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Does the House agree to that suggestion?

Yes, I think that is reasonable.

Agreed.

When is it proposed to take No. 7?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The proposal is to take Nos. 5 and 6 before tea, and to take the Emergency Powers Bill on the resumption at 7 o'clock.

Since there is only half a quorum in the House, would it not be a good idea to leave this matter over until after tea?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are waiting for the Parliamentary Secretary, who is just arriving.

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