Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Jul 1947

Vol. 34 No. 2

Trade Union Bill, 1947—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

I do not think this Bill will give Senators any difficulty. Under the Trade Union Act of 1941 trade unions were required to maintain deposits with the High Court as a condition of obtaining negotiating licences. The amount of the deposit in any case was determined by the membership of the union and required from £1,000 to £10,000. It was recognised, however, when the Act was being passed, that some unions, particularly the smaller craft unions, would be adversely affected by prevailing conditions during the emergency and, consequently the Act contained a provision enabling the Minister for Industry and Commerce to grant a negotiating licence, where he thought the circumstances justified it, on making a reduced deposit—25 per cent. of the amount set out in the Schedule.

The power to reduce the deposit without affecting a union's right to a negotiation licence as provided in the Act was to continue for 12 months after the repeal of the Emergency Powers Act and no longer. The position is that in September next all these unions which obtained negotiating licences on the basis of reduced deposits, will be required to make full deposits or surrender the negotiating licences. It is clear, however, that the adverse conditions which affected some of the unions still continue, and representations have been made to me that it is desirable that these powers to permit of a reduced deposit, should be continued for a further period. The purpose of this Bill is to amend the Act, and to continue the operation of Section 8, which relates to the reduction of deposits for a further period of 12 months. I mentioned in the Dáil that certain discussions are proceeding with organisations representative of trade unions, with a view to the preparation of proposals of a more comprehensive kind regarding trade unions. I hope these discussions will allow for the introduction of proposals within the 12 months contemplated in the Bill, and that the House will have an opportunity of discussing them, and, if they think fit, enacting them before the expiration of that period. It is, however, desirable that immediate difficulties for some of these smaller unions should be avoided while the preparation of other legislation is being considered and, therefore, it was decided to ask the Oireachtas to pass this Bill continuing this power to reduce the deposit for a further period of 12 months.

Mr. Duffy

I think, Sir, that we can all agree that this is a desirable Bill, the passage of which should be facilitated. The Minister, I understand. has utilised the powers conferred on him by the Act of 1941 to reduce the deposit for certain small and certain poor unions so that they may obtain a negotiating licence without having to find £1,000 or in some cases more than £1,000. What he has done is to permit a union to have a negotiating licence on the making of a deposit of, I think, £250. That seems to me a desirable thing to continue because the unions concerned will in the main be small unions covering small groups of people who at any time are not likely to have great wealth. Some of them, I imagine, would have to go out of business if they were asked to provide a larger deposit. I do not think it is the desire of anybody in this House that organisations of that kind should be put out of business merely on the ground that they were poor.

The only point that occurs to me in regard to the Bill is whether the date is just the best date. Last year, when the Minister for Finance was in the House with a Bill to provide for the extension of the Emergency Powers we suggested to him that the 31st December was a better date to convenience both Houses, no doubt, and this House in particular and I am not at all sure that it would not have been wiser of the Minister to insert 31st December rather than 2nd September in this Bill. One can see a difficulty if for any reason there was a dissolution next year in the summer. The opportunity of renewing the Bill might not arise in time and you might find the crisis which the Minister is now trying to avoid taking place in December, 1948, if in the meantime the more comprehensive Bill he has in mind has not become law. However, I am not pressing that point. I merely raise it so that the Minister may consider it.

Mr. Hayes

I see no objection to this Bill either. I think there is some difficulty about the multiplicity of trade unions but where they actually exist and where they are serving a purpose, I think we would agree with the Minister and with Senator Duffy that they should not be put out of business merely because they cannot produce a considerable sum of money. I think there has been agreement between the Minister and the trade unions on the way the particular powers he received were exercised and, therefore, I think this Bill should be passed. I think Senator Duffy's point about the date is a sound one. The 31st December is a much better date than any date in September from the point of view of the way Parliament does its business and more particularly from the point of view of the financial year which throws a great deal of work into the summer but, of course, it is the Minister's business.

Mr. Lemass

On the matter of the date I should hope it will be possible to introduce the general legislative proposals I have in mind long before the expiration of this Bill. I had hoped, in fact, to produce them in this session and thus avoid the necessity for this Bill altogether, but the delay in completing them was almost entirely attributable to my own preoccupation with other matters. Discussions have been in progress now for some time and I should hope that we will be well advanced towards the preparation of amending legislation by the next session, in which case we should be able to clear up that situation with a great deal of time to spare even within the 12 months period contemplated.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining stages to-day.

Bill put through Committee without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.

Ordered that the Bill be returned to the Dáil.

Business suspended at 5.50 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.